Sydney siege: Gunman takes hostages in Lindt cafe

[MrWorldwide]

Unlike Boston, London or Madrid, the odds of a visitor being caught up in an incident like this are - imo - considerably lower in Australia, and I believe we can thank the Federal and state task forces that monitor extremist elements for that. The fact that they pick up the nutters before they can behead someone in a public place - or worse - speaks volumes for their willingness to take the would-be terrorists at their word rather than waiting until they do something stupid - clearly, this guy slipped through the cracks and thats a tragedy, but it could have been a lot worse. For the negative types, the cops killed two people in the crossfire - in my book, they saved over 30 others.

The media are making noises about 'the day Australia changed forever' - in my opinion, that happened with the first Bali bombing. Australia is in this up to it's proverbial neck and there's no going back - interesting times ahead.

[zydeco]

Unlike Boston, London or Madrid, the odds of a visitor being caught up in an incident like this are - imo - considerably lower in Australia, and I believe we can thank the Federal and state task forces that monitor extremist elements for that. The fact that they pick up the nutters before they can behead someone in a public place - or worse - speaks volumes for their willingness to take the would-be terrorists at their word rather than waiting until they do something stupid - clearly, this guy slipped through the cracks and thats a tragedy, but it could have been a lot worse. For the negative types, the cops killed two people in the crossfire - in my book, they saved over 30 others.

The media are making noises about 'the day Australia changed forever' - in my opinion, that happened with the first Bali bombing. Australia is in this up to it's proverbial neck and there's no going back - interesting times ahead.

Maybe not so much as "slipped through the cracks" as marched through the gate, with a brass band playing, while firetrucks with sirens brought up the rear. Before yesterday, a terror attack was about the only thing NOT on his resume.

[MrWorldwide]

I agree that he should have been a more prominent blip on Police radar - makes you wonder how many other potential powderkegs are still out there. Think happy thoughts.

[neverdie]

I agree that he should have been a more prominent blip on Police radar - makes you wonder how many other potential powderkegs are still out there. Think happy thoughts.

The real dangerous ones out there would be laying really low. Certainly not running around cutting their wives throats or dancing around the streets of Sydney in chains.

[simple1]

From what has been said, he was from Iran and a refugee. Did he have citizenship? Did he arrive in Australia on his own, or was he given temporary asylum in another country first?

Usually people with mental conditions need to be in remission for a year before being resettled. It seems there was a breakdown in allowing this guy to run free without being on medication at a minimum.

Have not read about the detail of his travel & entry to Oz, but the guy was granted citizenship four years after arrival in Australia. From some reports he did try to obtain exit from Iran for his wife, unsure if this was the person eventually allegedly murdered by his girlfriend, for which he was on bail for being accessory after the fact. Bail was granted by a magistrate for him and GF as was claimed the case against them was weak, not PC considerations as many like to claim.

From a number of media reports his GF was also deeply involved in his anti Western activities and defiant regarding the charges of sexual abuse against him.

He had made his views very clear by writing to journalists, politicians and persuing a dismissal of charges up to the High Court for his harrasement of members of armed forces families whose loved one had been killed in Afghanistan - GF assisted him with these unlawful activities. You may have noted his final appeal was dismissed by the High Court last Friday, the hostage taking event occured on the Monday.

The OZ PM has launched an investigation as to why he was not detained, or at least 'monitored' after being identified as being sympathic to Islamic extremism, more details on the reasoning for granting bail and so on.

Edited December 17, 2014 by simple1

[dexterm]

Sydney hostage-taker Hojat al-Islam Muhammad Hassan Manteqi is a cousin of Iran’s Islamic Chief Justice Amoli, according to Tehran sources

http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2014/12/16/sydney-hostage-taker-hojat-al-islam-muhammad-hassan-manteqi-is-a-cousin-of-irans-islamic-chief-justice-amoli-according-to-tehran-sources/

ozsamurai

I think a lot of them are related through interbreeding.

Certainly the Muslims of Pakistani heritage are keen on marrying off to cousins etc.

It could explain the large amount of nutjobs.

Racist nonsense..what has a smear campaign against Pakistanis got to do with a lone wolf nut job murderer in Sydney...completely .

If you have seen footage of the perp he was clearly a disturbed individual well known to the police for molesting women when supposedly reading their fortunes through astrology cards, jumping on the IS bandwagon, because he knew that would be an attention grabber...he didn’t even have their flag.

He was just a publicity seeker carefully choosing the venue for his crime opposite a TV station for max exposure.

While the Muslim community are paying their respects at the site of the crime

http://www.aljazeera.com/video/asia-pacific/2014/12/australians-launch-anti-islamophobia-campaign-20141216192834527672.html

the usual Islam bashing hatefest has emerged on this forum.

[Ulysses G.]

what has a smear campaign against Pakistanis got to do with a lone wolf nut job murderer in Sydney...

A lone wolf nut job ISLAMIC murderer in Sydney. You left something out.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[dexterm]

what has a smear campaign against Pakistanis got to do with a lone wolf nut job murderer in Sydney...

A lone wolf nut job ISLAMIC murderer in Sydney. You left something out.

So what?

The fact that you seem to feel the need to include his religion thereby wantonly tarnishing millions of others speaks volumes about your bigotry QED.

Would you have felt the same need to capitalize his religion if he had been Hindu, Christian, Buddhist or Jewish?

Edited December 17, 2014 by dexterm

[Tep]

The plethora of comments on this thread by the islamophobe, racist, bigots push the notion that the cause is related to islam and the consequence is to stop immigration, deport people based on their skin colour and abandon multiculturalism

Of course he just had the black flag with arabic writing flying because he was a Christian !!

He had an Islamic Fundamentalist website because he was perhaps a Pagan !!

His FB page is littered with goodwill messages from other Muslims because he is a Hindu !!

TOO RIGHT IT WAS RELATED TO ISLAM

The sooner that apologists like you understand that Islam is not compatible with Civilized Societies the better it will be for all.

Your infatuation with me is beyond creepy. Go back to the Rotherham thread and play with your other deviant buddies. A one trick pony. Your bigotry has nothing to benefit Australia. If and when the Australian authorities identify islam as a cause of this event, I will then take note. No amount of capitalisation, bold text and underlining places you in any position to know better than them. Juvenile behaviour.

You have been called out as a stalker by more than one poster and you continue to stalk me and address posts to me despite being told not to. Your own behaviour is not compatible with civilised society.

Dont flatter yourself.

Go work on your dream of Democracy in Afghanistan, tell me how that works out for you.

Talk about clueless. What Islamic Country in the world wants Democracy.

You have been called as an abject apologist by many forum members, seems to me that you are the one that is not compatible with a civilized society.

And I will reiterate for you, I will post on anything that I like, whether you like that or not.

I repeat. Stop you stalking. I have repeatedly said that you are free to post you opinion. That includes your opinion of what I say but refrain from addressing me. That is twice now. You have now twice called me an apologist. That is defamatory. You repeatedly refer to some nonsense about Afghanistan. I have made no comment about democracy in Afghanistan. You fabricate misinformation to make your personal attacks. Each of these actions violate the rules of the forum. You have been suspended before for similar actions. Stop your pathetic stalking.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Tep

[zydeco]

what has a smear campaign against Pakistanis got to do with a lone wolf nut job murderer in Sydney...

A lone wolf nut job ISLAMIC murderer in Sydney. You left something out.

So what?

The fact that you seem to feel the need to include his religion thereby wantonly tarnishing millions of others speaks volumes about your bigotry QED.

Would you have felt the same need to capitalize his religion if he had been Hindu, Christian, Buddhist or Jewish?

This guy forced his victims to hold up an Islamic flag before shooting them. Seems that Islam is central to the story. When was the last time a terrorist forced his hostages to hold up a Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, or Hindu banner before shooting them?

[Tep]

You can't chooka, and only the very worst of the apologists attempt to do so. Disgraceful religion.

Tep, the Australian authorities won't identify islam as a contributing factor because of ridiculous, pathetic political correctness, and to be a touch cynical, both major parties are chasing the votes from the muslim ghettos of western Sydney. We can't upset the muslims.....at any cost.

In fact, our government, successive governments, go to great lengths to not upset ANY minority groups. It's OK that minority groups can do and say whatever they wish about their hosts in this country, but if those of us in the majority say a word against a minority, the law is on you.

I accept your comment on the Australian authorities comments being bound by various other considerations. However, I believe that this is the appropriate response, to proceed on the basis of known information. At the moment the 'islamist' connection is speculation predominantly by people with a known agenda. If serious people want to make serious decisions then these should be based on as much accurate information as possible. By serious people I mean law enforcement and policy makers. If information is not released to the public due to political considerations - lets say that it is in the government's interest to allow the islamic speculation to continue even after they have information that it was a lone wolf with mental health issues who happens to be muslim (this is a thought experiment and I acknowledge that this may not be the case) - then security and policy responses must be aligned to the accurate information to be effective surely? Basing those responses on politically driven censored information would be a seriously dangerous move.

I do not think that the cowardice due to PC issue that you raise will happen. Sure politicians are subject tot pressure but we expect to trust our institutions. I also believe that any official statement will be as dry as possible and issued in a context to minimise and mitigate as much damage possible. So I am not blinkered about these things. i am sure any such statement would take into account the response of the muslim community in Australia. However, if there was evidence or an objectively substantiated set of theories and presumptions that has some empirical evidence, then the authorities would, I believe make such a statement. And I would pay attention to it. Surely this is the rational approach?

I would state categorically that if the authorities identified Islam as a cause of the Sydney hostage taking and that after review, critique and discussion it became the accepted received wisdom of the cause, then I would certainly think consider the consequences of this seriously. I have never apologised for any terrorist. The slur of apologist is thrown by intellectual midgets who are desperate to rephrase their one thought in different ways.

[Ulysses G.]

what has a smear campaign against Pakistanis got to do with a lone wolf nut job murderer in Sydney...

A lone wolf nut job ISLAMIC murderer in Sydney. You left something out.

So what?

The apologists for radical Islam keep trying to pretend that his ideology did not influence him to kidnap 17 people and hold them hostage in terrifying circumstances in a siege which resulted in multiple injuries and deaths. It DID.

[Tep]

this guy did it in the name of islam, carrying a sign praising and worshiping mohamed and the Islamic faith. He was a cleric and preached to others. How can you distant islam from this.

I saw the sign. I saw the news reports of his previous tv appearances in clerical costume. I haven't seen confirmation that he did this in the name of islam. There may well be reports. I understand he and hostages were posting to social media sites. I understand those sites were restricted and the posts unavailable so I don't know the content. I know he called for the ISIS flag. That's about all that I know in terms of facts. I think a key piece of missing evidence is his actual motivation. Forgot for a moment what people say caused the action, what was the end point that he hoped to achieve?

I do not distance Islam from him. I acknowledge and accept the associations that you describe. I still want to know and have some evidence for the claim that islam 'caused' this thing to happen. You may think this is semantics but I am quite serious and I think the law enforcement and policy officials, if not the politicians, must surely be concerned about the same issue. if you cannot clearly identify the cause, there is no way to understand it and develop strategies to prevent it in the future.

[dexterm]

what has a smear campaign against Pakistanis got to do with a lone wolf nut job murderer in Sydney...

A lone wolf nut job ISLAMIC murderer in Sydney. You left something out.

So what?

The apologists for radical Islam keep trying to pretend that his ideology did not influence him to kidnap 17 people and hold them hostage in terrifying circumstances in a siege which resulted in multiple injuries and deaths. It DID.

I am not an apologist for radical Islam. I deplore Sharia law..the bits I am aware of ... crazy and cruel.

I am an atheist. I think they are all nuts. But I would defend the right of anyone to believe what they want to believe so long as they don’t shove it down others’ throats

And I am against bullies, bigots and hate filled propagandists who sinisterly try to lump a deranged man’s actions together with the majority of Muslims who are decent people simply practising their religion.

He jumped on the publicity bandwagon because ISIL is in the news... Tony Abbott made sure of that by needlessly involving Australians in a civil war 8,000 miles away.

[Ulysses G.]

I think a key piece of missing evidence is his actual motivation. Forgot for a moment what people say caused the action, what was the end point that he hoped to achieve?

Terrorism and he was successful.

[Ulysses G.]

I am not an apologist for radical Islam.

Tell that to someone who has not been reading your posts for months.

Quite frankly I have learned not to take anything that you post seriously. I have seen example after example of what certainly seems to be taqiyya - Muslims are allowed to lie to unbelievers in order to deceive them - in your posts and when I point out the actual facts, with credible evidence, you ignore or deny them.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Tep]

I think a key piece of missing evidence is his actual motivation. Forgot for a moment what people say caused the action, what was the end point that he hoped to achieve?

Terrorism and he was successful.

I am not an expert on terrorism. I just know about the issue from public sources. I do have some experience with words though and understand that words can be misused. Is not terrorism a means rather than an end? Militant terrorist drones seem to be sent to create an environment of terror in some conflicts but this is for a purpose. It is to facilitate the transfer or consolidation of power. I don't see this in the Sydney incident yet on the basis of information made available. What wider political, social, religious, cultural, financial or whatever objective was to be achieved by this hostage taker even in the event that he would lose his life through that action? It doesn't make sense to me on the basis of the information that we have at the moment.

I also probably disagree that he was successful in creating terror. The metrics for measuring that are obviously open to debate and disagreement. I think we have to wait to see if there are any changes in the way Australia and Australians do things to assess the extent to which he may have been successful, assuming that was the objective.

[Ulysses G.]

I also probably disagree that he was successful in creating terror.

Pretty much anyone, anywhere would disagree with that. He was very successful at creating terror. IMO, you are being overly pedantic, rather than just admitting the VERY obvious.

[dexterm]

I think a key piece of missing evidence is his actual motivation. Forgot for a moment what people say caused the action, what was the end point that he hoped to achieve?

Terrorism and he was successful.

He certainly terrorized the cafe customers and caused the tragic deaths of two innocent people. I cant begin to imagine the grief of Katrina Dawson’s 3 young children. He's dead. Good riddance.

I think he was mad, but not on a suicide mission. We may never know. He could have killed the hostages anytime in the 16 hour siege before he started dropping off to sleep. I think he was milking the publicity angle for all it was worth...hence using social media and TV stations to air his warped grievances. I await the public inquiry.

[dexterm]

I am not an apologist for radical Islam.

Tell that to someone who has not been reading your posts for months.

Quite frankly I have learned not to take anything that you post seriously. I have seen example after example of what certainly seems to be taqiyya - Muslims are allowed to lie to unbelievers in order to deceive them - in your posts and when I point out the actual facts, with credible evidence, you ignore or deny them.

Your perception is your problem, not mine.

I am simply anti all forms of bullying, bigotry, racism, and fascism..

[Farma]

What tep dexterm and a few other posters know and won't admit is ISIS have been reaching out to the world muslim community asking for muslims to carry out these lone wolf attacks.

This muslim nutter in sydney is one of many lone wolves answering the ISIS call.

Whatever way you look at it..it was a terrorist attack and one in a style I expect we will see more of.

[chooka]

this guy did it in the name of islam, carrying a sign praising and worshiping mohamed and the Islamic faith. He was a cleric and preached to others. How can you distant islam from this.

I saw the sign. I saw the news reports of his previous tv appearances in clerical costume. I haven't seen confirmation that he did this in the name of islam. There may well be reports. I understand he and hostages were posting to social media sites. I understand those sites were restricted and the posts unavailable so I don't know the content. I know he called for the ISIS flag. That's about all that I know in terms of facts. I think a key piece of missing evidence is his actual motivation. Forgot for a moment what people say caused the action, what was the end point that he hoped to achieve?

I do not distance Islam from him. I acknowledge and accept the associations that you describe. I still want to know and have some evidence for the claim that islam 'caused' this thing to happen. You may think this is semantics but I am quite serious and I think the law enforcement and policy officials, if not the politicians, must surely be concerned about the same issue. if you cannot clearly identify the cause, there is no way to understand it and develop strategies to prevent it in the future.

Politicians are terrified of the Islamic community in Australia and will never associate Islam and this guy in the same breath. Politicians are after the votes of the fast growing Islamic community in Australia and will stand shoulder to shoulder with them no matter how much death and destruction they cause. Australian politicians are cowards just like those they defend for a single vote and Australia can go down the toilet for all they care as long as they have a job and support of Islam.

[Exsexyman]

Interestingly there is a report on the BBC today that says Monis was wanted in Iran for fraud and various other crimes, 14 years ago they requested his extradition but Australia refused. I know hindsight is an exact science but that is starting to look like a bad call.

[Tep]

What tep dexterm and a few other posters know and won't admit is ISIS have been reaching out to the world muslim community asking for muslims to carry out these lone wolf attacks.

This muslim nutter in sydney is one of many lone wolves answering the ISIS call.

Whatever way you look at it..it was a terrorist attack and one in a style I expect we will see more of.

Provide evidence of your statement that I am in possession of information relating to the Sydney hostage incident that resulted in the deaths of two Australian citizens immediately or withdraw that statement. You have defamed me with this statement and I am taking action as a consequence.

[chooka]

What tep dexterm and a few other posters know and won't admit is ISIS have been reaching out to the world muslim community asking for muslims to carry out these lone wolf attacks.

This muslim nutter in sydney is one of many lone wolves answering the ISIS call.

Whatever way you look at it..it was a terrorist attack and one in a style I expect we will see more of.

Provide evidence of your statement that I am in possession of information relating to the Sydney hostage incident that resulted in the deaths of two Australian citizens immediately or withdraw that statement. You have defamed me with this statement and I am taking action as a consequence.

guess you don't watch the news. Australians fighting with ISIS have been used in promotional videos calling for everyone to rise up and fight for Islam. Act alone or in groups. Stop protecting this piece of scum who wanted the ISIS flag delivered to him so he could display it along with his other Islamic flag. Protecting and supporting this filth will never end the carnage but just increase it as long as ISIS HAS supporters like yourself Edited December 17, 2014 by chooka

[Tep]

I also probably disagree that he was successful in creating terror.

Pretty much anyone, anywhere would disagree with that. He was very successful at creating terror. IMO, you are being overly pedantic, rather than just admitting the VERY obvious.

Pedantry is my process on these sorts of issues. It helps me cut through the noise. I also find linear thinking to be useful i.e. step by step only moving to the next step when you have enough information to draw conclusions. This is my homeland. It is a place that I am proud of. I take this event extremely seriously. I want the response to be appropriate, objective, evidence based and even-handed. What is obvious to you, may well be proven in the long run. Allow us lesser mortals to get to the end point in our own way (I would put a smiley here if I knew how).

[dexterm]

What tep dexterm and a few other posters know and won't admit is ISIS have been reaching out to the world muslim community asking for muslims to carry out these lone wolf attacks.

This muslim nutter in sydney is one of many lone wolves answering the ISIS call.

Whatever way you look at it..it was a terrorist attack and one in a style I expect we will see more of.

Yes, I am aware of ISIS calls for lone wolf attacks, and for that they bear responsibility for the deaths of innocents in Sydney. This nut job jumped on their bandwagon.

I hold Tony Abbott equally to blame for rattling the ISIS cage and taking sides unnecessarily in a civil war 8,000 miles away from home, and grand standing by raising the terrorist alert level before there had been any attack, rounding up the usual suspects, selectively banning Australians from certain war zones but not others, thus putting a spotlight on ISIS.

Chicken or the egg??

[Farma]

What tep dexterm and a few other posters know and won't admit is ISIS have been reaching out to the world muslim community asking for muslims to carry out these lone wolf attacks.

This muslim nutter in sydney is one of many lone wolves answering the ISIS call.

Whatever way you look at it..it was a terrorist attack and one in a style I expect we will see more of.

Provide evidence of your statement that I am in possession of information relating to the Sydney hostage incident that resulted in the deaths of two Australian citizens immediately or withdraw that statement. You have defamed me with this statement and I am taking action as a consequence.

Read what I wrote then look at what you've already posted. Try and twist my words however you want but I never accused you of being in possession of information that resulted in deaths.

What you've freely admitted is you are familiar with the news and I've noticed from your posts how you avoid mentioning certain negative to Islam items in your replies.

[Tep]

What tep dexterm and a few other posters know and won't admit is ISIS have been reaching out to the world muslim community asking for muslims to carry out these lone wolf attacks.

This muslim nutter in sydney is one of many lone wolves answering the ISIS call.

Whatever way you look at it..it was a terrorist attack and one in a style I expect we will see more of.

Provide evidence of your statement that I am in possession of information relating to the Sydney hostage incident that resulted in the deaths of two Australian citizens immediately or withdraw that statement. You have defamed me with this statement and I am taking action as a consequence.

guess you don't watch the news. Australians fighting with ISIS have been used in promotional videos calling for everyone to rise up and fight for Islam. Act alone or in groups. Stop protecting this piece of scum who wanted the ISIS flag delivered to him so he could display it along with his other Islamic flag. Protecting and supporting this filth will never end the carnage but just increase it as long as ISIS HAS supporters like yourself

I don't get much Australian news here in Bangkok. I only see what CNN or BBC shows. I am aware though of the issue of Australians fighting for ISIS. So I am familiar with the relationship between ISIS and Australians.

My objection was that the poster specifically said that I had information that I did not provide about the cause of the Sydney tragedy. This is defamatory and unacceptable. That statement must be withdrawn. I categorically state that I have no information relevant or pertinent to that criminal action and if I did have information, it would be immediately provided to the relevant authorities.

Please don't misunderstand my view. I do not in any way defend the hostage taker or support his actions. I want to know the truth about what happened and I want the authorities to investigate until they know the truth and decisions are made based on the evidence. You have made up your mind. That is fine. I have not and call for more information from credible sources. How is this seen as supporting criminal activity? If there is proof that demonstrates a link between Australian citizens with command and control responsibilities in ISIS and the Sydney hostage taker whose name I can't recall, then that would be a serious development worthy of a serous response. So I await that further information.

[chuckd]

what has a smear campaign against Pakistanis got to do with a lone wolf nut job murderer in Sydney...

A lone wolf nut job ISLAMIC murderer in Sydney. You left something out.

So what?

The fact that you seem to feel the need to include his religion thereby wantonly tarnishing millions of others speaks volumes about your bigotry QED.

Would you have felt the same need to capitalize his religion if he had been Hindu, Christian, Buddhist or Jewish?

This guy forced his victims to hold up an Islamic flag before shooting them. Seems that Islam is central to the story. When was the last time a terrorist forced his hostages to hold up a Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, or Hindu banner before shooting them?

To the best of all public knowledge, he made only two demands.

One was to talk to PM Abbott.

The other was a demand for the government to provide him with an IS flag.

It would seem even the least knowledgeable of our members would be able to connect those two dots and call it what it was.

A terrorist attack by an Islamic radical for political gain.