Sydney siege: Gunman takes hostages in Lindt cafe

[Friendly Stranger]

2 people are dead because Australia put his human rights ahead of law abiding citizens. Some countries need to wake up.

Beware the kettle calling the pot black.
Australia is a multicultural country and all the better for it.
My first wife was Italian/Australian and her family all worked very hard for Australia.
My second wife and mother of my children was from Fiji and my children are little chocolate drop Australians. Born and bred.
My third wife was Thai and like most Thais who live in Australia she runs a Thai restaurant and loves Australia.
My fourth wife is Chinese.
My mother and father were English.
My mothers 2nd husband was from Latvia his son is Australian.
Her 3rd husband was from Lebanon. A Christian and a librarian in Sydney.
I would like you to consider what was taught to me.
Never believe anything you hear (including the written word) and only half of what you see.
Never underestimate who the "mates" of Australia really are.
Try and see the movie "They're a weird mob" written by Nino Culata.

Yes Aus has a rich history of multiculturalism. The Greeks, Italians, Chinese, Vietnamese etc. etc.
I don't recall any of these immigrant waves demanding Australia change it's culture to suit them do you.

But they did change Australian Culture. Souvlaki, Pasta, Roast Duck, Pho.

but now we can no longer celebrate xmas in schools, yes we can eat souvaki but it must be halah. Australia has changed and the traditions which most grew up with have been banned to suit a certain religious group coming to Australia to embrace the culture that has now been banned to suit them. I hate having to say happy holidays out of fear if I said merry xmas it may offend a new arrival.

This is why I resort to saying merry CHRIST mas. Yes, a little childish but it's to make a point. I had jewish friends growing up and they never said a word but g-d forbid I'm in the presence of the higher than mighty recent comers.

It's too bad as I like a lot of the traditions and customs I'm introduced to but it's a 2 way street.

[Tep]

As expected, as time moves on, more information and maybe clarity emerges. From http://www.news.com.au/national/martin-place-cafe-siege-man-haron-monis-named-as-gunman/story-fncynjr2-1227157492618

"It's believed Monis lost a High Court appeal against his conviction for sending the offensive letters last Friday. There is speculation that that may have lead to his actions yesterday"

Experts who work with or understand these situations are starting to say that there are 'triggers' to such behaviours by people with mental health issues and it seems some are looking at the Friday court loss.

For me, lessons from the Sydney hostage event come down to 2 things; causes and consequences. The plethora of comments on this thread by the islamophobe, racist, bigots push the notion that the cause is related to islam and the consequence is to stop immigration, deport people based on their skin colour and abandon multiculturalism. These people have nothing to offer us. They have nothing to offer those who live in societies that are historically based on immigration and are culturally diverse. Some of them have admitted having no experience of Australian society, have never been to Australia and know nothing of our culture and society. Yet they presume to lecture us based on their petty cultural biases, fears and concerns.

For cause, I don't know if anyone has an answer yet. Much of what I read and hear talks about the impossibility of stopping the 'lone wolf' attack. Is this then the price that open and free societies pay and we just have to trust our luck that we don't choose the wrong coffee shop to visit? Clearly gun control is not effective in its current form. Is that the answer? Should laws be changed, individual freedoms and rights curtailed? I think there will be many arguments on the issue of cause. Some rage about letting these 'people' into the country in the first place. I assume by 'these people' you mean people with mental health issue who pose a threat to the safety of others? Perhaps those who advocate this can tell us how exactly to do this (apart from using skin colour as a test). One of my family works with Immigration and she interviews people in Darwin right off the boat so to speak and has to make recommendations about their claim to come to Australia by this means. I am serious. What questions does she ask to establish whether a person is going to be a danger to others. She has no advanced mental ability to see into a person's mind or know a persons future as far as I know. We can only establish systems and procedures and apply them equitably to all-comers and know that such systems and procedures cannot be perfect.

For consequence, I do not think that any reasonable Australian will advocate a return to the White Australia policy and the shame of our past. What the angry old white bigots don't realise is the amount of work that we Australians have put into multiculturalism since the 80's. Anyone who has worked in government or with community organisations will know what I am talking about. We have had the debates. We have experimented with programs. We have implemented laws and regulations. Those who have not lived through it or are not living through it because it is an ongoing experience have no idea of what multiculturalism in Australia means. They are just reactionary scared old men angry at other people for having better lives than they did. I worry that these types of people and there are plenty in Australia, will drive knee-jerk reactions that will see more bigotry and discrimination, not less.

Religious councils were quick to condemn this criminal action even though it seems the relationship of religion and causation are more and more tenuous. Australian citizens choose unity over discrimination through #irideiwithyou. Police and politicians were muted about the 'islamic terrorism' hysteria because they knew this individual and what seems to be a substantive part of the reason for his action being mental health and personal issues. I am hopeful that these things signal a move to enhance multiculturalism and respect for diversity in a united, vibrant and dynamic Australia.

Unity in Australia does not mean whites only any more. Plenty of humble pie to be eaten by the bigots who are increasingly being rejected by forward thinking Australians.

[weegee]

But they did change Australian Culture. Souvlaki, Pasta, Roast Duck, Pho.

Food is not culture, it is an aspect of culture and regardless they didn't arrive in Aus and demand everyone give up their vegemite and eat only Souvlaki or Pho

But they are working on it !!!!!! Hope everyone in oz lets their dog crap on the Mosque steps...."she'll be right mate" now is "Bloody hell, stuff that"

[Friendly Stranger]

That was tough to watch when the female news anchor found out on air that she knew the deceased 38 yr old solicitor. She pretty much started to fall to pieces right on air. Now that's real life

[chuckd]

<snip>

One of my family works with Immigration and she interviews people in Darwin right off the boat so to speak and has to make recommendations about their claim to come to Australia by this means. I am serious. What questions does she ask to establish whether a person is going to be a danger to others. She has no advanced mental ability to see into a person's mind or know a persons future as far as I know. We can only establish systems and procedures and apply them equitably to all-comers and know that such systems and procedures cannot be perfect.

<snip>

You might give your family member this little suggestion from an old white man.

When she is in her interview process, tell her to flash a cartoon of the prophet Mohammed.

If they beat her to a pulp, that might be her first clue.

Good luck with your continuing multi-culturalism.

When that fails, and it will, then tell any newcomer to accept the laws and customs of their host country. If they want to live under Sharia and their Muslim rules, return to their Muslim country and leave the Aussies alone.

[weegee]

That was tough to watch when the female news anchor found out on air that she knew the deceased 38 yr old solicitor. She pretty much started to fall to pieces right on air. Now that's real life

Yes, and a lot of REAL Aussies feel the same even when they didnt know her.. thats what REAL Australians are like....We old bastards as we are being called, got it right, and now we have to face the consequences of the younger generation who definitely should have listened to the '"old Whingers" a long time ago.

You cant say Merry Xmas in places in Australia....what the hell have you allowed to happen?

Multicultural Society DID work in Australia on Australian terms and conditions...every National from outside who came to Aust, blended in and got on with it...

Thats the way it WAS...and worked for many many years. You earnt the right to be an Australian.

But now the Do gooders are coming out and defending these things and making excuses for the grave mistakes they have made in their decisions to allow a culture with no respect for anyone but themselves, into Australia. They come and bludge off our Social system for all they can get, while Pensioners, who built the nation before you, live in poverty, and never get to see any of the money go to them, which they payed taxes to ensure they would.....wake up, the latest generation of do good Australians have got it wrong.

I dont care what you think is right or wrong.....i will still say until the day i die....MERRY XMAS!!!!!...WHY!... I am an Australian.

[White Christmas13]

It's about time the immigration rules in Australia get changed

anybody migrating to Australia should be made to eat a good old PORK MEAT PIE

[simple1]

but now we can no longer celebrate xmas in schools, yes we can eat souvaki but it must be halah. Australia has changed and the traditions which most grew up with have been banned to suit a certain religious group coming to Australia to embrace the culture that has now been banned to suit them. I hate having to say happy holidays out of fear if I said merry xmas it may offend a new arrival.

Posts removed to enable response.

It's off topic, but worth a response. It is nonsense to claim Xmas cannot be celibrated in Aussie schools; nearly all claims are hoaxes and often re-circulated on the internet coming up to Christmas.

http://theantibogan.wordpress.com/2010/03/20/schools-banning-christmas-really/

There are some instances of misguided PC decisions, but always overturned.

Halal issue has been done to death in various topics, bottom line it's a commercial decision by a vendor to obtain halal certification, as very clearly articulated by Dick Smith.

Attempts to generate hate towards a particular religious group contributes nothing to Australian society. Thankfully most political and community leaders are wiser than you.

[Tep]

<snip>

One of my family works with Immigration and she interviews people in Darwin right off the boat so to speak and has to make recommendations about their claim to come to Australia by this means. I am serious. What questions does she ask to establish whether a person is going to be a danger to others. She has no advanced mental ability to see into a person's mind or know a persons future as far as I know. We can only establish systems and procedures and apply them equitably to all-comers and know that such systems and procedures cannot be perfect.

<snip>

You might give your family member this little suggestion from an old white man.

When she is in her interview process, tell her to flash a cartoon of the prophet Mohammed.

If they beat her to a pulp, that might be her first clue.

Good luck with your continuing multi-culturalism.

When that fails, and it will, then tell any newcomer to accept the laws and customs of their host country. If they want to live under Sharia and their Muslim rules, return to their Muslim country and leave the Aussies alone.

Thank you Chuck for your best wishes for our multiculturalism. I know that you will appreciate the benefits of respecting diversity since you have now self identified as a member of a minority ethnic group. I do however argue that there cannot be racism against whites because whites still predominantly control the access to power so I don't think you are part of an oppressed minority. I am not sure if I agree with your analysis on the inevitable failure of multiculturalism. Your view is that the dominance by one group bound by religious beliefs will dominate and consequently destroy muticulturalism.

I am not so liberal that I would deny the evidence of religious and cultural intolerance by religious extremists, including those that are labelled islamic extremists. With you, I look forward to seeing how Australia copes with extremist views and whether we allow this to change our society. We clearly disagree on what the outcomes will be. I acknowledge that Australia will change as a result of immigrants who are Muslim but believe it will be for the better. I also believe that those immigrants will be changed by Australia, also for the better.

My niece, the Immigration interviewer, inherits our family genes and is gigantic in height. Her cousins are taller than me and most of my life, I have been pretty much the tallest person I know. Her father is a sheep farmer, married to my sister who was the first female principle of one of the largest, most troubled schools in the state and who sorted it out pretty smartly. My niece would tell the raging cartoon reactionary to pull their head in and get real. Fairly practical and pragmatic lot that family.

Is there any other strategy apart from baiting? I think your cartoon analogy is apt but much more complex than first glance. I argue for respect for diversity and this is not a one way street. But this starts to get off topic and goes off on tangents. Besides you deliberately miss my point which was about mental health issues and not extreme religious beliefs but that doesn't matter because your issue is about baiting.

You have not yet convinced me to become an anti-immigrant.

[Camelot]

I watched a fair bit of it on CNN, which, for once, had better coverage than the BBC. One problem, though. Tony Abbott may be PM but he's yet to gain international recognition.

That does not excuse the Atlanta-based American news anchor who referred to him as "Australian Prime Minister Tony Blair." But far, far worse was Anna Coren, 20 minutes later, who also mixed up Abbott and Blair. She is an Aussie and reporting from Sydney, so she must have been very flustered and understandably tired. She didn't correct herself so the interviewer cut in and said "You misspoke" without identifying the mistake. A useless intervention.

That's an observation, not a criticism, but it did show that Tony Abbott needs to embark on a world tour, change his name or hire a PR consultant.

I am genuinely sad at the outcome. The only consolation is that it could have been far, far worse.

Why on earth did an Australian court free on bail a madman convicted of writing poison pen letters to the families of Australian servicemen killed in action and accused of 47 sexual assaults and involvement in stabbing his ex-wife to death and then setting her on fire? Could it have been leniency shown to an ethnic minority? We'll never know.

[kinmaew]

Sadly mankind has not changed one iota since year dot. I think the Pink Floyd song "Us and Them" epitomizes mankind's core problem. There is no way we should even be thinking of exploring other worlds until we have got ourselves in order here.

[H1w4yR1da]

The plethora of comments on this thread by the islamophobe, racist, bigots push the notion that the cause is related to islam

It's ALL about Islam.

The only ones who don't recognize the fact are those like yourself who want to ram multiculturalism and diversity down our throats at any cost. What happens to multiculturalism when those immigrants don't want to integrate to the home country's culture but demand you conform to theirs. Halal certification is just a small part of that. Why can't one be proud and defend homegrown white culture without being labeled racist, Islamophobe or bigot by some sad liberal social warrior with a hard on for 'old white men'?

Most white people I know think multiculturalism is a positive when the immigrants bring something to or strengthen the home culture. West Indian and Indian immigrants have added to the British culture. Has Islam? No. It's the most divisive, backward, medieval, barbaric cult out there who, as Bill Maher said, will f'ing kill you if you say (or do) the wrong thing.

And let's face it, 'diversity' is just a byword for 'anything but white'. It's up there with 'affirmative action'.

Just more apologist hyperbole excusing the Muslim terrorists actions by saying he was a lone wolf with mental issues or a court case was the trigger. Islam was the trigger. As show by the numerous atrocities in other countries.

Yet another attack.

And more deaths of innocents..

Common denominator in all of them is Islam.

And more apologists, denial and deflection.

[heybuz]

Try and see the movie "They're a weird mob" written by Nino Culata.

​ niño cullotta,was the pseudnm for john o'grady, wonderfull movie for its time

[Mosha]

Given the seriousness of charges, why wasn't his refugee status revoked?

[Jingthing]

That's what's weird about this case. It would be hateful to persecute all Muslims in Australia. But this guy was practically waving a flag saying: I AM A THREAT. If someone like him couldn't have been identified and stopped before the event ... something is obviously broken in the Australian system.

[weegee]

You know the irony of all this?

While you ( leave them alone )types have been discussing this horrible spectacle thats has taken place...The Taliban have jut now, taken 500 kids hostage in a school in Pakistan (Peshawar)...(breaking news on BBC). And you want us to accept this, and accept their culture and beliefs....WAKE UP!!!!

Some of you who have forgotten what the REAL Australia is about , should sit and listen to the Famous Song by an Australian Country Singer "True Blue"..

Help them and understand them....In a Pigs Ding!!

[DaffyDuck]

Oh great, didn't take long for the 'false flag' idiots to emerge.

The only mistake that was made was to not have a sniper take the guy out when he showed his face at a window.

[weegee]

That's what's weird about this case. It would be hateful to persecute all Muslims in Australia. But this guy was practically waving a flag saying: I AM A THREAT. If someone like him couldn't have been identified and stopped before the event ... something is obviously broken in the Australian system.

We call it.... Rooted !!!

[Jingthing]

That's what's weird about this case. It would be hateful to persecute all Muslims in Australia. But this guy was practically waving a flag saying: I AM A THREAT. If someone like him couldn't have been identified and stopped before the event ... something is obviously broken in the Australian system.

We call it.... Rooted !!!

Sorry, I don't speak your language.

[weegee]

That's what's weird about this case. It would be hateful to persecute all Muslims in Australia. But this guy was practically waving a flag saying: I AM A THREAT. If someone like him couldn't have been identified and stopped before the event ... something is obviously broken in the Australian system.

We call it.... Rooted !!!

Sorry, I don't speak your language.

Thats ok...but speaking it doesnt mean much if you cant understand it as well....lol

[zydeco]

As convenient as it is to point the finger at Islam, this was a person with mental health issues.

I would argue that most Islamic terrorists that attack innocent civilians have mental health issues, including the leaders. They court people with mental issues to become suicide bombers and to carry out lone wolf attacks. I see no reason that radical Islam should be let off the hook in any regard.

By Western standards, this man may have had mental issues. But in Iran, in the Middle East, I'll bet he is a dime a dozen. I doubt he would stand out at all. He is normal by the standards of the average mullah, I would wager.

[jacky54]

I saw an interview with one guy from one of these groups who runs a program to deradicalize young Muslims. Can't recall his name.

It is easier said than done, since they become radicalized in the first place for complex different reasons.

Would his name have been Mohamed by any chance? They do NOT become radicalised for complex reasons, they are just 'good' Muslims following the koran literally. They can only become de radicalised if they renounce the Koran and the prophet because that is where this all begins, and it has been going on for 1400 years. About 250 million lives have been lost to these radicals since the man heard the voices in the cave.

[jacky54]

Attempts to generate hate towards a particular religious group contributes nothing to Australian society. Thankfully most political and community leaders are wiser than you.

Opposition to Islamisation and constantly giving way to them and trying not to offend them is not 'hate' as well you know. Opponents are not the ones trying to kill people, take them hostage or behead soldiers on the street, and are not the ones blowing up buildings, churches, trains, buses or killing marathon runners, just where is the hate coming from?

Edited December 16, 2014 by jacky54

[kaobang]

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/sydney-siege-gunman-identified-as-self-styled-sheik-man-haron-monis-on-bail-for-accessory-to-murder/story-fnl2dlu7-1227157403853

[zydeco]

Well, I see there is a strenuous effort afoot to deflect the discussion to the "root cause" of the terrorist's "disorder." Make it all about insanity. And, as some posters, above, even do--hint at his acts being the fault of White Australia for not doing enough to adjust to his culture. THAT is what drove him insane. Yep. Just like after the 2009 Fort Hood shooting, when Nidal Hasan, the army psychologist, no less, was described even by some army generals as a "casualty" because of all he had to endure as a Muslim in the US Army. And THAT is what drove him to do his massacre. Want peace? Apparently, that means every place and every person must convert to Islam and do things that way.

[Tep]

The plethora of comments on this thread by the islamophobe, racist, bigots push the notion that the cause is related to islam

It's ALL about Islam.

The only ones who don't recognize the fact are those like yourself who want to ram multiculturalism and diversity down our throats at any cost. What happens to multiculturalism when those immigrants don't want to integrate to the home country's culture but demand you conform to theirs. Halal certification is just a small part of that. Why can't one be proud and defend homegrown white culture without being labeled racist, Islamophobe or bigot by some sad liberal social warrior with a hard on for 'old white men'?

Most white people I know think multiculturalism is a positive when the immigrants bring something to or strengthen the home culture. West Indian and Indian immigrants have added to the British culture. Has Islam? No. It's the most divisive, backward, medieval, barbaric cult out there who, as Bill Maher said, will f'ing kill you if you say (or do) the wrong thing.

And let's face it, 'diversity' is just a byword for 'anything but white'. It's up there with 'affirmative action'.

Just more apologist hyperbole excusing the Muslim terrorists actions by saying he was a lone wolf with mental issues or a court case was the trigger. Islam was the trigger. As show by the numerous atrocities in other countries.

Yet another attack.

And more deaths of innocents..

Common denominator in all of them is Islam.

And more apologists, denial and deflection.

This is not the response I expected from you. Well, mostly it is. You and your bully-boy mates who visit us from your residence on the Rotherham thread are one trick ponies. You say one thing over and over again. There is nothing new. As soon as someone sees your ID, they know what you will say. And here it is again.

I will not argue the Islam issue on here. It is premature. I post on the basis of information that is available. Not on personal prejudice. I am still waiting for more information about the relationship of 'islamic extremism' to this incident.

However, instead of dismissing you as marginal noise as I and others have done in the past and on other threads, I do see some attempts at an argument based on actual ideas in your post. I identify 2 theses; home grown white culture; and, contribution to positive multiculturalism. Normally I would try and pick you apart on the idea of 'home grown white culture' but to me it confirms my perception that you are British and probably have limited exposure to Australian culture and society. Britain can claim a home grown white culture. Most historians agree that British or more accurately English culture is predominantly influenced by the Angles and Saxons who migrated to the islands from the 5th Century. These cultures are certainly 'white' and where enhanced culturally by the Normans. So even though the UK has historically seen significant numbers of non-white migrants and cultural diversity going back even to the medieval times, you can lay a claim to an indigenous white culture without slipping down the road to racism.

But of what relevance is this to Australia. The fact that the first wave of immigration in the colonial period was from that white culture does not mean that this culture is indigenous or home grown to Australia. the fact that those immigrants shamefully passed laws to keep out Asian at the time of Federation also does not validate the idea that the white culture is home grown. To steal from another right winger on TVF, there have been many waves of cultural enhancers since WWII. White culture was and still is dominant in Australia. A sociologist would be needed to tell us the numbers and proportions now but you cannot say it is home grown and you cannot say that this culture has any right or privileges over other cultures. It has to be taken on its merits. There are aspects of other cultures that I would say are incompatible in their current form with what Australian culture is now and what it may be in the future. I proudly support the idea of an Australian identity and culture. it is heavily influenced by white UK culture but not exclusively. You then go off on a bit of a wild ride about the 'white' thing so I won't go further.

Your 2nd point relates to positive multiculturalism emerging from immigrants contributing to society and you cite the West Indian experience. I find this a little ironic. Are you aware of the West Indian immigrant experience?

British policy-makers only tolerated it and would have liked to discourage it. They were aware from the beginning of the social and political costs of immigration, especially of the problems of racial prejudice that migrants would face and which might prevent the integration of black workers. - See more at: http://www.historytoday.com/zig-henry/new-commonwealth-migrants-1945-62#sthash.jkqkgbfG.dpuf

Not being British, I had to do some research, although I have seen a number of documentaries and read a number of articles on this issue previously. Just like the prejudice exhibited to the Vietnamese refugees to Australia in the 70's there was significant prejudice exhibited to the West Indian immigrants. Interestingly the article continues to blame the labour politicians for not implementing the social and educational programs to facilitate integration. While I did not personally experience this from far away in Australia, much of our TV and news came from the UK and I vividly recall watching Love thy Neighbour on the old Black and White.

Positive contributions to multiculturalism are probably only properly evaluated retrospectively. On another thread there was a challenge to identify at least 5 benefits of muslim migration to Australian society and this was answered swiftly and easily. You will remember that as you were part of the discussion with your usual mantra.

I do not change my view about you completely and I have no thought that your mind will be changed. The first step in dealing with a problem is to understand that you have a problem. That is clearly not going to happen in your case. But it is novel to be able to engage on an issue with someone I had dismissed as a mere zealot.

[MrWorldwide]

You know the irony of all this?

While you ( leave them alone )types have been discussing this horrible spectacle thats has taken place...The Taliban have jut now, taken 500 kids hostage in a school in Pakistan (Peshawar)...(breaking news on BBC). And you want us to accept this, and accept their culture and beliefs....WAKE UP!!!!

Some of you who have forgotten what the REAL Australia is about , should sit and listen to the Famous Song by an Australian Country Singer "True Blue"..

Help them and understand them....In a Pigs Ding!!

Mate, put down that stubbie and turn off Alan Jones - those days are gone. And FWIW, that 'Australian Country Singer' has a name - John Williamson. I will give him this - for a one-hit wonder he milked that tune for all it was worth. There's only one generally accepted unofficial anthem - Waltzing Matilda - but for an old bogan like myself from the Western Suburbs of Sydney, this is the anthem every new Australian should have to learn :

It might be a cliche, and I suspect that many vets wouldnt agree with me, but there's nothing like the kisses of a jaded Chinese princess - amen to that, Jimmy

[chooka]

That's what's weird about this case. It would be hateful to persecute all Muslims in Australia. But this guy was practically waving a flag saying: I AM A THREAT. If someone like him couldn't have been identified and stopped before the event ... something is obviously broken in the Australian system.

It's called political correctness, this breaks down the system. He was apparently the subject of abuse in prison from other inmates after he sent hate messages to the families of Aussies soldiers killed in Afghanistan. The do gooders jumped up and down saying he was being harrassed and he was a refugee of violence. His lawyer used this and got him out on bail on humanitarian reasons.

[jacky54]

Want peace? Apparently, that means every place and every person must convert to Islam and do things that way.

As instructed and enforced by the Prophet, unless you want to be a second class person, pay the Islamic tax, have no rights and never any hope of official positions. If you are gay or a woman forget it anyway. is this what we want for 21st century democracies, 7th century barbarians calling the shots and our pathetic leaders giving into them in the hope they will one day integrate into that great multi cultural myth? Islam hates the west and everything it stands for.

Edited December 16, 2014 by jacky54

[JemJem]

Sad ! In the early stages, why the heck wasn't he taken out by a sniper when he was visible near the window ?!

Two innocent people died needlessly.