'Plot To Blow Up Planes' Foiled

[britmaveric]

If you are prepared to pay over the odds, you can go to London and get a Passport in 1 day.[legally.]

Hmm. Maybe the UK should take a closer look at that.

Can do the same in yankland apparently (expedited passport service -24hrs, much more dosh though)!!!

[kayo]

Money destined for equipment for 40 rural hospitals in guatemalan highlands has now been diverted for additional screening equipment at the Internaitonal Aiport of Guatemala, following recent security threats on international travel....

[opothai]

Some ugly news on this latest mess. Apparently, several of these alleged terrorists did not even have passports. None of them had actually purchased a ticket. Real tough to do the suicide/plane thing without a passport. I guess you could do a domestic flight but you would still need a ticket.

you don't need a ticket or passport to be involved in a conspiricy

But you DO need a passport to board an international flight. The claims are that the alleged radicals had been told to "Do it now!", that is proceed with the final stage of the plan within a matter of days. Um, if they had no passports, they weren't likely to be going anywhere on any transatlantic flights. They'd first have to apply for and receive passports. I don't know how long that takes in the UK, but can you get one that quickly?

the police are interviewing 23 people, some were maybe going to travel some were not.

fire arms have been found in houses and in hidden 'dens' in the forest,

for the most part the police and security forces can not take any chances and must act upon reliable information recieved.

if they make the odd mistake in this day and age i'm afraid we have to accept this if not be prepaired for the consequences with no moaning at the authorities.

passenger profiling works, i and some of my friends have been caught with contraband [ ciggies ]

the reasons, oversized suitcase, looking suspicious, now we are all in our 40's smartly dressed golf bags in tow.

the customs got it right and we can not moan, also i have been stopped subsequently, but have learn't my lessons. now should i moan about being stopped again and again,

if people are innocent and are stopped IF they have nothing to hide they will understand it is part of the speeding up proccess.

[agsnowdon]

Slightly off topic.

FYI

I called Gulf and Thai Air today and you are now allowed hand luggage on board but there is still a strict ban on liquids, gels etc. Aslo no ciggarette lighters allowed.

Electronics permitted. Was told hand luggage should be L 44cm W 35cm D 16cm and no more than 7KG's.

Hope this helps anyone planning on flying soon.

[AmeriThai]

If you are prepared to pay over the odds, you can go to London and get a Passport in 1 day.[legally.]

Hmm. Maybe the UK should take a closer look at that.

Can do the same in yankland apparently (expedited passport service -24hrs, much more dosh though)!!!

Can't say I'm familiar with expidited passport service in the US. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I would think such a fast turn-around these days since 9-11 in the US would be more likely for those who live in the same cities that process the initial applications or renewals. Those who live elsewhere can obtain apps from most local branches of the USPS, which is going to take time, even if you send via Overnight Express Mail. Even for those who live near a processing center, seems like a lot of stuff like that is usually on a first come - first serve basis, unless you're a diplomat or a well-known super CEO.

When I renewed my passport a few years back, the nearest place to send it was Seattle, about 300 or so miles from my location. I got the new one back within 5 days to a week. Although processing is done at the various reginal centers, I think initial apps and renewals are handled by different departments.

That said, there's no question the US bureaucratical system in the US is so massive that it usually seems pretty inept at handling things efficiently, pretty much like The Three Stooges. If the US is processing apps within 24 hours, that old crapola needs to change. I can't think of too many reasons why anyone needs to have a passport within 24 hours. They can either allow sufficient time, or tough luck.

Edited August 15, 2006 by AmeriThai

[fruittbatt]

Dont want to barney with you Fruitbatt, legally in Britain or not, on hearing "Armed Police, HALT!," what would you do? Even if you could not speak the language, when official looking men are running at you with guns, it would seem sensible to stop and put your hands up.

not all of us respond rationally in a crisis...panic is a common response...seems to me this could also be applied to official actions in Britain.

[fruittbatt]

passenger profiling works, i and some of my friends have been caught with contraband [ ciggies ]

the reasons, oversized suitcase, looking suspicious, now we are all in our 40's smartly dressed golf bags in tow.

the customs got it right and we can not moan, also i have been stopped subsequently, but have learn't my lessons. now should i moan about being stopped again and again,

if people are innocent and are stopped IF they have nothing to hide they will understand it is part of the speeding up proccess.

What is being proposed in Britain is not simply "passenger profiling" but "racial profiling" - according to BBC World and online news reports. This is not only a blatantly racist response but also means that potential terrorists would simply choose people to do their work who do not fit the "profile"...as you and your mates might have done if you were really determined smugglers.

[Pakboong]

If you are prepared to pay over the odds, you can go to London and get a Passport in 1 day.[legally.]

Hmm. Maybe the UK should take a closer look at that.

Can do the same in yankland apparently (expedited passport service -24hrs, much more dosh though)!!!

Can't say I'm familiar with expidited passport service in the US. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I would think such a fast turn-around these days since 9-11 in the US would be more likely for those who live in the same cities that process the initial applications or renewals. Those who live elsewhere can obtain apps from most local branches of the USPS, which is going to take time, even if you send via Overnight Express Mail. Even for those who live near a processing center, seems like a lot of stuff like that is usually on a first come - first serve basis, unless you're a diplomat or a well-known super CEO.

When I renewed my passport a few years back, the nearest place to send it was Seattle, about 300 or so miles from my location. I got the new one back within 5 days to a week. Although processing is done at the various reginal centers, I think initial apps and renewals are handled by different departments.

That said, there's no question the US bureaucratical system in the US is so massive that it usually seems pretty inept at handling things efficiently, pretty much like The Three Stooges. If the US is processing apps within 24 hours, that old crapola needs to change. I can't think of too many reasons why anyone needs to have a passport within 24 hours. They can either allow sufficient time, or tough luck.

I would hope the passport offices had been alerted to this, especially since the Perps had been under surveillence for quite some time.

[Pakboong]

passenger profiling works, i and some of my friends have been caught with contraband [ ciggies ]

the reasons, oversized suitcase, looking suspicious, now we are all in our 40's smartly dressed golf bags in tow.

the customs got it right and we can not moan, also i have been stopped subsequently, but have learn't my lessons. now should i moan about being stopped again and again,

if people are innocent and are stopped IF they have nothing to hide they will understand it is part of the speeding up proccess.

What is being proposed in Britain is not simply "passenger profiling" but "racial profiling" - according to BBC World and online news reports. This is not only a blatantly racist response but also means that potential terrorists would simply choose people to do their work who do not fit the "profile"...as you and your mates might have done if you were really determined smugglers.

[/quote

I agree, there is no reason to use agents who fit a "Muslim" profile, there are millions of Muslims who look just like native Brits or Americans. Which makes me quite suspicious of this story in the first place.

[otherstuff1957]

Yes, there are quite a few Muslims who don't fit the profile of a suicide bomber/terrorist/whatever, but, so far, most of the terrorists have come from fairly small groups of closely connected people. So far, they don't seem to be having much success recruiting people from outside their social, ethnic and age group.

Racial profiling is frowned upon in the West, but given the current group of terrorists, it does work. When we start seeing a lot of blond, blue eyed suicide bombers we can start worrying.

[cclub75]

What is being proposed in Britain is not simply "passenger profiling" but "racial profiling" - according to BBC World and online news reports. This is not only a blatantly racist response but also means that potential terrorists would simply choose people to do their work who do not fit the "profile"...as you and your mates might have done if you were really determined smugglers.

Oh really ?

I have a game for you. Take a very long blank paper sheet. Draw 2 columns on it :

-"Muslim terrorists"

-"Other terrorists"

Then, for each terrorist attack in the world, from 1970 to nowadays, put a cross in the proper column.

Then, count and make the total.

Voila.

So, yes it is reasonable to speak about certain "patterns". It's a fact. You don't like it, you think it is "racist", but that's a fact.

[Pakboong]

Yes, there are quite a few Muslims who don't fit the profile of a suicide bomber/terrorist/whatever, but, so far, most of the terrorists have come from fairly small groups of closely connected people. So far, they don't seem to be having much success recruiting people from outside their social, ethnic and age group.

Racial profiling is frowned upon in the West, but given the current group of terrorists, it does work. When we start seeing a lot of blond, blue eyed suicide bombers we can start worrying.

neither the CIA nor the Mossad would use an agent the didn't fit a proper racial profile, I is same to assume the other operations wouldn't either. I am native American and don't pretend that Americans are smarter than Arabs. Have you forgotten of the Black Muslims that sprung up in the 60's. Any sophisticated operation would not get tripped by a racial profile.

[Guest endure]

passenger profiling works, i and some of my friends have been caught with contraband [ ciggies ]

the reasons, oversized suitcase, looking suspicious, now we are all in our 40's smartly dressed golf bags in tow.

the customs got it right and we can not moan, also i have been stopped subsequently, but have learn't my lessons. now should i moan about being stopped again and again,

if people are innocent and are stopped IF they have nothing to hide they will understand it is part of the speeding up proccess.

What is being proposed in Britain is not simply "passenger profiling" but "racial profiling" - according to BBC World and online news reports. This is not only a blatantly racist response but also means that potential terrorists would simply choose people to do their work who do not fit the "profile"...as you and your mates might have done if you were really determined smugglers.

There's a fairly major difference between persuading someone to try and smuggle some ciggies and persuading them to blow themselves up.

[Pakboong]

http://www.craigmurray.co.uk/archives/2006...k_terror_p.html

This guy is a former British ambassador who, I think, summed things up pretty well.

[mittheimp]

What is being proposed in Britain is not simply "passenger profiling" but "racial profiling" - according to BBC World and online news reports. This is not only a blatantly racist response but also means that potential terrorists would simply choose people to do their work who do not fit the "profile"...as you and your mates might have done if you were really determined smugglers.

Oh really ?

I have a game for you. Take a very long blank paper sheet. Draw 2 columns on it :

-"Muslim terrorists"

-"Other terrorists"

Then, for each terrorist attack in the world, from 1970 to nowadays, put a cross in the proper column.

Then, count and make the total.

Voila.

So, yes it is reasonable to speak about certain "patterns". It's a fact. You don't like it, you think it is "racist", but that's a fact.

Remember islam is a religion and not an ethnicity! Radaical islam is a big minority but it encompasses vertually all races from Indonesia, south asia, middle east, north africa, east africa, eastern europe, western europe and the USA. Terrorists maybe cazy but they are usually not stupid, and to go and blow up a plane with a full islamic beard is unlikely.

what racial profiling would richard reid have come under?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1729472.stm

as for your game - you should try it as i think 'other' terrorist would win! more suicide bombers have taken place in Sri Lanka than elsewhere where the despute is largely secular. in 2001 the second largest act of terrorism in the world (after 9/11) happened in Angola - by a group supported by the USA!! I doubt you heard about that though!

[fruittbatt]

http://www.craigmurray.co.uk/archives/2006...k_terror_p.html

This guy is a former British ambassador who, I think, summed things up pretty well.

thanks for a most interesting link to a good thinker with inside info. Highly recommended.

[fruittbatt]

What is being proposed in Britain is not simply "passenger profiling" but "racial profiling" - according to BBC World and online news reports. This is not only a blatantly racist response but also means that potential terrorists would simply choose people to do their work who do not fit the "profile"...as you and your mates might have done if you were really determined smugglers.

Oh really ?

I have a game for you. Take a very long blank paper sheet. Draw 2 columns on it :

-"Muslim terrorists"

-"Other terrorists"

Then, for each terrorist attack in the world, from 1970 to nowadays, put a cross in the proper column.

Then, count and make the total.

Voila.

So, yes it is reasonable to speak about certain "patterns". It's a fact. You don't like it, you think it is "racist", but that's a fact.

It all depends on your definiton of "terrorist"....in my book the coalition of the witless (largely comprised of Caucasian ethnicity with a couple of token exceptions) would win your game hands down... Oh, and please note that Muslims would not even qualify because Islam is a religion, not a "race"...and that is a "fact"

[mrbojangles]

Before we all get too bogged down in colour and race issues etc. I might be wrong but it is my understanding that Passenger Profiling has actually been around for quite a long time, anyway. And the main criteria are things like, the frequency of travel to certain destinations, whether the passenger is a member of the airline’s frequent flyer program, and whether the ticket was bought with cash or a credit card. I think these things are looked at, as it is doubtful a terrorists would sign up to a membership or payment methods that would expose their identity too much.

Don't get me wrong though. There is nothing to say that it won't involve colour and race more in the future. My point is that it is already around.

[kayo]

What is being proposed in Britain is not simply "passenger profiling" but "racial profiling" - according to BBC World and online news reports. This is not only a blatantly racist response but also means that potential terrorists would simply choose people to do their work who do not fit the "profile"...as you and your mates might have done if you were really determined smugglers.

Oh really ?

I have a game for you. Take a very long blank paper sheet. Draw 2 columns on it :

-"Muslim terrorists"

-"Other terrorists"

Well, I´ve game for you.

Take an even longer blank paper sheet. Draw 2 columns on it :

-"Males aged between 16 and 90"

-"Other human beings"

Sum up all the murders that have been commited since the dawn of time...

DO the results imply that every male is a murderer?

[cclub75]

Take an even longer blank paper sheet. Draw 2 columns on it :

-"Males aged between 16 and 90"

-"Other human beings"

Sum up all the murders that have been commited since the dawn of time...

DO the results imply that every male is a murderer?

No. The result implies that there is a statistical pattern.

I mean, there is no point to play with words. I wanted to point out that muslim terrorists are in the headlines, as for international terrorist attacks. The ones that concern us and the ones that we were talking about.

There is absolutly no point to compare with suicide bombings in Sri Lanka.

As for the word "racist" I didn't used first : i was just replying. Of course, Islam is a religion not an ethnicity.

It's amazing to see that so many people refuse to point out this fact : muslims (white, black, green, red color, whatever) are responsible for global terrorism theses last years.

It doesn't mean that all muslim are terrorists.

But you can't deny the pattern.

And when you deal with "profiling", you deal with patterns.

[Pakboong]

Take an even longer blank paper sheet. Draw 2 columns on it :

-"Males aged between 16 and 90"

-"Other human beings"

Sum up all the murders that have been commited since the dawn of time...

DO the results imply that every male is a murderer?

No. The result implies that there is a statistical pattern.

I mean, there is no point to play with words. I wanted to point out that muslim terrorists are in the headlines, as for international terrorist attacks. The ones that concern us and the ones that we were talking about.

There is absolutly no point to compare with suicide bombings in Sri Lanka.

As for the word "racist" I didn't used first : i was just replying. Of course, Islam is a religion not an ethnicity.

Take a look at this link

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HH17Ak03.html

It's amazing to see that so many people refuse to point out this fact : muslims (white, black, green, red color, whatever) are responsible for global terrorism theses last years.

It doesn't mean that all muslim are terrorists.

But you can't deny the pattern.

And when you deal with "profiling", you deal with patterns.

[keda]

What is being proposed in Britain is not simply "passenger profiling" but "racial profiling" - according to BBC World and online news reports. This is not only a blatantly racist response but also means that potential terrorists would simply choose people to do their work who do not fit the "profile"...as you and your mates might have done if you were really determined smugglers.

Oh really ?

I have a game for you. Take a very long blank paper sheet. Draw 2 columns on it :

-"Muslim terrorists"

-"Other terrorists"

Well, I´ve game for you.

Take an even longer blank paper sheet. Draw 2 columns on it :

-"Males aged between 16 and 90"

-"Other human beings"

Sum up all the murders that have been commited since the dawn of time...

DO the results imply that every male is a murderer?

Sounds like the lib/left/looneys are at it again, though we should fairly concede their argument proves conclusively that Islam is NOT the main threat to civilisation - today, in real time, as opposed to 853, 647, 1289 or 141 years ago.

keda

[keda]

...But you can't deny the pattern.

And when you deal with "profiling", you deal with patterns.

There you go again, using common sense (which is likely to save innocent lives) in place of political correctness (which is likely not to).

keda

[Pakboong]

Knowing which rocks to look under is everything in this business. The error, IMO, is looking only under rocks that are Muslim. Take a look at the money that has been moving in the months prior to each of these bombings. The only one that does not fit the pattern is the Madrid bombing, that one appears to be an ideological act. The others are amazing. Trillions were moved as if the event were known well in advance by someone who controlled vast amounts of money. More importantly, someone with the connection to the currency markets who could do it without drawing major attention. The average handle on any giving day in the international currency markets is around 1.5 trillion US. This is the largest pari-mutual gambling pool known to man. Bill Gates and Warren Buffet together could not move these markets to any appreciable degree.

UK embassador Murray alludes to these strange money movements in a post (link) I made earlier. I don't know who is behind this terror stuff but I do know that Bin Laden on his richest day only had control of around $250,000,000, far cry from what it would take to move these markets.

[fruittbatt]

Knowing which rocks to look under is everything in this business. The error, IMO, is looking only under rocks that are Muslim. Take a look at the money that has been moving in the months prior to each of these bombings. The only one that does not fit the pattern is the Madrid bombing, that one appears to be an ideological act. The others are amazing. Trillions were moved as if the event were known well in advance by someone who controlled vast amounts of money. More importantly, someone with the connection to the currency markets who could do it without drawing major attention. The average handle on any giving day in the international currency markets is around 1.5 trillion US. This is the largest pari-mutual gambling pool known to man. Bill Gates and Warren Buffet together could not move these markets to any appreciable degree.

UK embassador Murray alludes to these strange money movements in a post (link) I made earlier. I don't know who is behind this terror stuff but I do know that Bin Laden on his richest day only had control of around $250,000,000, far cry from what it would take to move these markets.

I can see that this is big, but surely there must be a trail leading to the movers and shakers and their interests? I feel very much out of my league in this big-money talk, but would certainly be interested to find out whose money and where it was moved from/to and whether there is a consistent/evident temporal pattern preceding the bombings. Thanks for more interesting info. Curiouser and curiouser....

[Pakboong]

Knowing which rocks to look under is everything in this business. The error, IMO, is looking only under rocks that are Muslim. Take a look at the money that has been moving in the months prior to each of these bombings. The only one that does not fit the pattern is the Madrid bombing, that one appears to be an ideological act. The others are amazing. Trillions were moved as if the event were known well in advance by someone who controlled vast amounts of money. More importantly, someone with the connection to the currency markets who could do it without drawing major attention. The average handle on any giving day in the international currency markets is around 1.5 trillion US. This is the largest pari-mutual gambling pool known to man. Bill Gates and Warren Buffet together could not move these markets to any appreciable degree.

UK embassador Murray alludes to these strange money movements in a post (link) I made earlier. I don't know who is behind this terror stuff but I do know that Bin Laden on his richest day only had control of around $250,000,000, far cry from what it would take to move these markets.

I can see that this is big, but surely there must be a trail leading to the movers and shakers and their interests? I feel very much out of my league in this big-money talk, but would certainly be interested to find out whose money and where it was moved from/to and whether there is a consistent/evident temporal pattern preceding the bombings. Thanks for more interesting info. Curiouser and curiouser....

I wish I knew who is involved. I can only speculate. I do know for example that nobody is worried about money these days. US Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld on the day before 9/11 be for a senate subcommittee anounced that the Department had lost track of 2.3 trillion US. The the only way I know that you can lose that kind of money is to have so much it is difficult to keep track. When money is not a problem, the accountant doesn't really have a job.WW2 cost the US roughly 300 billion which in todays dollars is roughly 4.3 trillion. Tomorrow, the Iraq war will have lasted longer than WW2 and will probably cost more than WW2. But nothing is rationed and money is seldom at issue. Makes me very suspicious.

The two most obvious manipulations of the currency markets had to do with the India bombings. Huge movements of Rupees in the months right before the event. I don't know the mechanics of the markets, I stumbled onto this stuff by mistake, I was looking at the British Pound right after 7/7 and saw this strange pattern. I followed up with other similar events and found the same pattern. It looks very dirty to me. I can only imagine how much money was involved but I suspect many trillion over a couple of months.

[fruittbatt]

I wish I knew who is involved. I can only speculate. I do know for example that nobody is worried about money these days. US Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld on the day before 9/11 be for a senate subcommittee anounced that the Department had lost track of 2.3 trillion US. The the only way I know that you can lose that kind of money is to have so much it is difficult to keep track. When money is not a problem, the accountant doesn't really have a job.WW2 cost the US roughly 300 billion which in todays dollars is roughly 4.3 trillion. Tomorrow, the Iraq war will have lasted longer than WW2 and will probably cost more than WW2. But nothing is rationed and money is seldom at issue. Makes me very suspicious.

The two most obvious manipulations of the currency markets had to do with the India bombings. Huge movements of Rupees in the months right before the event. I don't know the mechanics of the markets, I stumbled onto this stuff by mistake, I was looking at the British Pound right after 7/7 and saw this strange pattern. I followed up with other similar events and found the same pattern. It looks very dirty to me. I can only imagine how much money was involved but I suspect many trillion over a couple of months.

Yes, it has often occurred to me that the cost of the Iraq War must be sending the US broke, yet there do not seem to be the same financial objections to this war as there were to Vietnam, for example..... and before Iraq there was (and is) Afghanistan. Was there no inquiry into the US Defense Departments' missing couple of trillions of $?

Certainly sounds as though there is some huge market-manipulation occurring...has anyone else advanced any theories of who and why at these particular junctures?

[keda]

As much in the dark on the moneymarkets as anyone, though it seems likely that certain people are able to make killings (sic) on both the terrorism and market fronts, and these days I guess it's virtually impossible for the Western security services to identify and or locate them.

keda

Edited August 17, 2006 by keda

[kayo]

Sounds like the lib/left/looneys are at it again, though we should fairly concede their argument proves conclusively that Islam is NOT the main threat to civilisation - today, in real time, as opposed to 853, 647, 1289 or 141 years ago.

keda

Interesting choice of dates there.

[keda]

Sounds like the lib/left/looneys are at it again, though we should fairly concede their argument proves conclusively that Islam is NOT the main threat to civilisation - today, in real time, as opposed to 853, 647, 1289 or 141 years ago.

keda

Interesting choice of dates there.

100% random...if they're significant it demonstrates no more than the mysterious subconscious at work.