Koh Tao murder trial rescheduled

[thailandchilli]

AleG #666 Again I ask, what is stopping the defense from carrying out their own independent DNA analysis of the defendants (AKA, not done by the RTP), which is what, as per your cite, what the UK government wants?

Again i reply with the same answer: Yes they can ask for many things but that does not provide an independent DNA test now does it

The RTP or prosecutors would need to give the defense the original sample of the B2's DNA found inside Hannah, that sample would need to be verified independently and then a new test carried out by an independent body.

The prosecutors or RTP will not allow this if they would then the would have allowed the UK authorities to do it a long time ago.

Now you carry on but its plain you will try to argue against this no matter how clear this is to everyone except you.

I'm asking, since you are so acquainted with the defense work, if they have actually requested an independent DNA test, and if not, why. Yes, no, don't know?

You claim they would not be allowed to request one, is that an opinion or an actual fact? The argument that they won't because they wouldn't allow the UK investigators is not particularly compelling.

If your asking for facts then thats the end of the discussion, the only facts I know to be true is this one:

UK Government

"There are two areas we are particularly concerned about. One is the verification of the DNA samples of the suspects, making sure there is further independent verification.

This did not happen because the role of the UK police was reduced to observational only.

To give an educated opinion based on the above then it would be safe to assume that whether the defense had asked for an independent DNA test and verification or not is irrelevant as it would be refused. But hey I wish I would be wrong in that! If I was then we can guarantee it would be all over the press and Andy Hall would be reporting it as he has done about all other aspects of the case.

[AleG]

I'm asking, since you are so acquainted with the defense work, if they have actually requested an independent DNA test, and if not, why. Yes, no, don't know?

You claim they would not be allowed to request one, is that an opinion or an actual fact? The argument that they won't because they wouldn't allow the UK investigators is not particularly compelling.

If your asking for facts then thats the end of the discussion, the only facts I know to be true is this one:

UK Government

"There are two areas we are particularly concerned about. One is the verification of the DNA samples of the suspects, making sure there is further independent verification.

This did not happen because the role of the UK police was reduced to observational only.

To give an educated opinion based on the above then it would be safe to assume that whether the defense had asked for an independent DNA test and verification or not is irrelevant as it would be refused. But hey I wish I would be wrong in that! If I was then we can guarantee it would be all over the press and Andy Hall would be reporting it as he has done about all other aspects of the case.

The UK police has no jurisdiction in Thailand, using that as a basis to decide whether the defense, in Thailand, is subject to the same limitations is comparing apples to oranges; that is the reason why I said that argument is not very compelling.

In any case, if Andy Hall has not made a fuzz about the defense being denied an independent DNA test it probably means that either they haven asked, or they did and they were not denied... or they asked, were denied and for some reason the defense hasn't added that to the Reasons why this trial is unfair list of grievances that they air regularly.

Personally, I'd go with the first option until facts emerge.

[thailandchilli]

I'm asking, since you are so acquainted with the defense work, if they have actually requested an independent DNA test, and if not, why. Yes, no, don't know?

You claim they would not be allowed to request one, is that an opinion or an actual fact? The argument that they won't because they wouldn't allow the UK investigators is not particularly compelling.

If your asking for facts then thats the end of the discussion, the only facts I know to be true is this one:

UK Government

"There are two areas we are particularly concerned about. One is the verification of the DNA samples of the suspects, making sure there is further independent verification.

This did not happen because the role of the UK police was reduced to observational only.

To give an educated opinion based on the above then it would be safe to assume that whether the defense had asked for an independent DNA test and verification or not is irrelevant as it would be refused. But hey I wish I would be wrong in that! If I was then we can guarantee it would be all over the press and Andy Hall would be reporting it as he has done about all other aspects of the case.

The UK police has no jurisdiction in Thailand, using that as a basis to decide whether the defense, in Thailand, is subject to the same limitations is comparing apples to oranges; that is the reason why I said that argument is not very compelling.

In any case, if Andy Hall has not made a fuzz about the defense being denied an independent DNA test it probably means that either they haven asked, or they did and they were not denied... or they asked, were denied and for some reason the defense hasn't added that to the Reasons why this trial is unfair list of grievances that they air regularly.

Personally, I'd go with the first option until facts emerge.

Coming from you then thats hardly compelling compared to others who want a fair and transparent trial

[AleG]

They can make a blind, independent test of the defendants DNA, without providing the results from the DNA from the victims to the laboratory(es), if later they don't match it would prove the prosecution evidence is questionable.

I'm sure someone is going to jump up claiming that the DNA results from the victims were tampered with, but that would have required to change the results at the very beginning to match the two Burmese an the end of a sham investigation, which is a ridiculous scenario, so really, don't bother.

First, some important background. Most people when they talk confidently about DNA testing assume that all DNA tests are looking at the same markers. In fact, there are many different kinds of DNA testing that can be done. Unless one knows, in detail, which markers one DNA test was looking at, one cannot even conduct a test on a different sample to see if there is a match. Once you know you have comparable tests, a match may or may not provide a high level of confidence that they come from the same individual. There are many factors that influence this, and not just the chain of custody of the samples.

It is very important that the defense be able to see the prosecution evidence, and especially the DNA evidence, ahead of the trial. It is my impression that strenuous efforts are being made to obstruct them.

I'm sure someone is going to jump up claiming that the DNA results from the victims were tampered with,

I am going to claim that they could have been, and probably could still be, given that very few people actually have access to those results and could testify that they were different from those in the original report.

Then just tell what methodology was used to analyze the DNA from the crime scene, simple as that.

"I am going to claim that they could have been, and probably could still be, given that very few people actually have access to those results and could testify that they were different from those in the original report."

Claims are a dime a dozen, proving that the laboratories were the analysis were carried out were complicit in a cover up since the very beginning of the investigation is something else altogether, specially since that cover-up scenario would count on the UK authorities to go along with it.

If the defense is going to just contest the results with that sort of unsupported claims they may just as well give up already.

[thailandchilli]

They can make a blind, independent test of the defendants DNA, without providing the results from the DNA from the victims to the laboratory(es), if later they don't match it would prove the prosecution evidence is questionable.

I'm sure someone is going to jump up claiming that the DNA results from the victims were tampered with, but that would have required to change the results at the very beginning to match the two Burmese an the end of a sham investigation, which is a ridiculous scenario, so really, don't bother.

First, some important background. Most people when they talk confidently about DNA testing assume that all DNA tests are looking at the same markers. In fact, there are many different kinds of DNA testing that can be done. Unless one knows, in detail, which markers one DNA test was looking at, one cannot even conduct a test on a different sample to see if there is a match. Once you know you have comparable tests, a match may or may not provide a high level of confidence that they come from the same individual. There are many factors that influence this, and not just the chain of custody of the samples.

It is very important that the defense be able to see the prosecution evidence, and especially the DNA evidence, ahead of the trial. It is my impression that strenuous efforts are being made to obstruct them.

I'm sure someone is going to jump up claiming that the DNA results from the victims were tampered with,

I am going to claim that they could have been, and probably could still be, given that very few people actually have access to those results and could testify that they were different from those in the original report.

Then just tell what methodology was used to analyze the DNA from the crime scene, simple as that.

"I am going to claim that they could have been, and probably could still be, given that very few people actually have access to those results and could testify that they were different from those in the original report."

Claims are a dime a dozen, proving that the laboratories were the analysis were carried out were complicit in a cover up since the very beginning of the investigation is something else altogether, specially since that cover-up scenario would count on the UK authorities to go along with it.

If the defense is going to just contest the results with that sort of unsupported claims they may just as well give up already.

Why would it count on the "UK authorities to go along with it."

Give me some facts on that statement

[catsanddogs]

I'm sure someone is going to jump up claiming that the DNA results from the victims were tampered with, but that would have required to change the results at the very beginning to match the two Burmese an the end of a sham investigation, which is a ridiculous scenario, so really, don't bother.

Yup, here I am jumping up (you knew it would be me, didn't you AleG). I'll state it again for the 7th time, tampering with DNA would not be difficult. One person could clandestinely take the B2 typing, re-label them 'DNA taken from Hannah' .....and everything would fit nicely in place for Thai officials' frame-up.

It wouldn't require changing the DNA trail 'from the very beginning'. If the re-labeling happened, it would have likely been right after the DNA samples were taken from the Burmese, which non-coincidentally, was right after the 2nd head cop was put in charge. Someone earlier mentioned the DNA typing taking from the crime scene was magically transferred to many people initially. That's a BIG assumption, and very doubtful. With a military gov't and police brass working together - it's their style to make announcements and expect every person lower ranks to accept it as gospel. Can you imagine a person of lower rank saying to his superior, "Excuse me sir, I would like to see the original DNA cards labeled, '...taken from Hannah' to check to see for myself whether they do actually match the DNA taken from the Burmese. It's more likely a lower-ranked person would say, "Excuse me sir, I'd like to fondle your daughter and take your pet dog and carve it up for a BBQ party, and only your wife is invited, and she's got to wear lingerie."

Yes, yes, we heard your conspiracy theories before; let's see some facts now, if there are any.

You should send your comment to the RTP.

[BritTim]

They can make a blind, independent test of the defendants DNA, without providing the results from the DNA from the victims to the laboratory(es), if later they don't match it would prove the prosecution evidence is questionable.

I'm sure someone is going to jump up claiming that the DNA results from the victims were tampered with, but that would have required to change the results at the very beginning to match the two Burmese an the end of a sham investigation, which is a ridiculous scenario, so really, don't bother.

First, some important background. Most people when they talk confidently about DNA testing assume that all DNA tests are looking at the same markers. In fact, there are many different kinds of DNA testing that can be done. Unless one knows, in detail, which markers one DNA test was looking at, one cannot even conduct a test on a different sample to see if there is a match. Once you know you have comparable tests, a match may or may not provide a high level of confidence that they come from the same individual. There are many factors that influence this, and not just the chain of custody of the samples.

It is very important that the defense be able to see the prosecution evidence, and especially the DNA evidence, ahead of the trial. It is my impression that strenuous efforts are being made to obstruct them.

I'm sure someone is going to jump up claiming that the DNA results from the victims were tampered with,

I am going to claim that they could have been, and probably could still be, given that very few people actually have access to those results and could testify that they were different from those in the original report.

Then just tell what methodology was used to analyze the DNA from the crime scene, simple as that.

"I am going to claim that they could have been, and probably could still be, given that very few people actually have access to those results and could testify that they were different from those in the original report."

Claims are a dime a dozen, proving that the laboratories were the analysis were carried out were complicit in a cover up since the very beginning of the investigation is something else altogether, specially since that cover-up scenario would count on the UK authorities to go along with it.

If the defense is going to just contest the results with that sort of unsupported claims they may just as well give up already.

The laboratories where the tests were carried out are not told the origin of the samples. They are given a numbered sample and told which tests to carry out. They make a report accordingly, and this is associated by the investigator with the victim. As others have repeatedly pointed out, you need to trust the investigator, and some of us do not.

that cover-up scenario would count on the UK authorities to go along with it.

I am really struggling with how the UK authorities would be able to say anything about the DNA results (unless, perhaps, the UK Home Office pathologist was able to independently extract samples after the bodies were returned to the UK). We know the Met guys were not able to review the results while here.

[boomerangutang]

AleG, similar to Thai officialdom, wants us to believe the DNA trail, as put together by Thai authorities, is reliable. Labs just do the typing, then give it over to whomever requests it. In this case, Thai officials. If one or two Thai officials change the labeling of the DNA cards (taken from Hannah), who but them is going to really know.

The Brits are unlikely complicit in the cover up, but if they know anything which can clear up the public's doubts, they're not letting anyone know other than the victims' families. The Brit Coroner Office's silence and evasiveness indicates they have have data which conflicts with Thai officials' data. If so, the Brits are opting to do nothing, rather than anger top Thai officials. It would be refreshing to have an insider, like Daniel Ellsberg (Pentagon Papers) buck the official silence on the matter, and go rogue and let the public know what they're hiding. It would aid the defense also, which spooks Thai authorities who desperately want convictions. Most galling of all, for Thai authorities and the Headman, is the possibility of British findings implicating the Headman's people. Then we'd hear a whole buzz of protest from the Gang of 4. But that would difficult, because Brit officials aren't being given any DNA data from the Headman's people - by Thai authorities.

[boomerangutang]

Just like jdinasia, when AleG is stumped for things to say, he devolves to repeating 'conspiracy theory' over and over. The biggest conspiracy theory in this botched investigation is the conspiracy of bumbling Thai top officials. Since the replacement head cop took over, they've done nothing but try to frame the B2 while shielding the Headman's people - and not even doing a good job at it.

If it weren't for social media, some of which contributes things/photos/first-had witness accounts which could prove useful for establishing guilt .....then this investigation would go the same route as others by Thai officials, which wound up nailing scapegoats, and enabling VIPs to get off smelling like cheap cologne.

If Thai officials are paranoid and defensive and riven by self-doubts, then they only have themselves to blame. They dug the hole they're in. The decent people on social media who are seeking truth and justice have given them ways to climb out of their mud hole, but Thai officialdom is hanging tough, and continuing to dig deeper in the doo doo.

[AleG]

Then just tell what methodology was used to analyze the DNA from the crime scene, simple as that.

"I am going to claim that they could have been, and probably could still be, given that very few people actually have access to those results and could testify that they were different from those in the original report."

Claims are a dime a dozen, proving that the laboratories were the analysis were carried out were complicit in a cover up since the very beginning of the investigation is something else altogether, specially since that cover-up scenario would count on the UK authorities to go along with it.

If the defense is going to just contest the results with that sort of unsupported claims they may just as well give up already.

Why would it count on the "UK authorities to go along with it."

Give me some facts on that statement

Because they would have to count on the UK pathologist to not do DNA analysis or if they did to keep mum about their results if they don't match the Thai ones.

[AleG]

Just like jdinasia, when AleG is stumped for things to say, he devolves to repeating 'conspiracy theory' over and over. The biggest conspiracy theory in this botched investigation is the conspiracy of bumbling Thai top officials. Since the replacement head cop took over, they've done nothing but try to frame the B2 while shielding the Headman's people - and not even doing a good job at it.

If it weren't for social media, some of which contributes things/photos/first-had witness accounts which could prove useful for establishing guilt .....then this investigation would go the same route as others by Thai officials, which wound up nailing scapegoats, and enabling VIPs to get off smelling like cheap cologne.

If Thai officials are paranoid and defensive and riven by self-doubts, then they only have themselves to blame. They dug the hole they're in. The decent people on social media who are seeking truth and justice have given them ways to climb out of their mud hole, but Thai officialdom is hanging tough, and continuing to dig deeper in the doo doo.

"when AleG is stumped for things to say, he devolves to repeating 'conspiracy theory' over and over."

That's funny, since it's you who, for lack of facts or logical arguments, always goes back to your conspiracy theories; let's see just from your last two posts:

-"If one or two Thai officials change the labeling of the DNA cards (taken from Hannah), who but them is going to really know."

-"The Brit Coroner Office's silence and evasiveness indicates they have have data which conflicts with Thai officials' data. If so, the Brits are opting to do nothing, rather than anger top Thai officials"

-"It would be refreshing to have an insider, like Daniel Ellsberg (Pentagon Papers) buck the official silence on the matter, and go rogue and let the public know what they're hiding"

-"But that would difficult, because Brit officials aren't being given any DNA data from the Headman's people - by Thai authorities."

-"The biggest conspiracy theory in this botched investigation is the conspiracy of bumbling Thai top officials."

-"Since the replacement head cop took over, they've done nothing but try to frame the B2 while shielding the Headman's people"

-"then this investigation would go the same route as others by Thai officials, which wound up nailing scapegoats, and enabling VIPs to get off smelling like cheap cologne."

Darn, I may just as well have quoted the entire posts.

[aimbc]

Of course you are confused, it's a natural consequence of taking conspiracy theories seriously, they don't have consistency between them (not to mention the lack of internal consistency). Once you stop taking people's speculations as facts things become more clear.

Miller and Ware were sharing a room, the police investigated the room, found a pair of shorts with what they thought may be blood stains; since it would had been improvable for Miller to go back to his room to change blood stained clothing after being murdered the police assumed the shorts may be Ware's. Now here is where things diverge between the people speculating here and actual police work, with that assumption they actually tested the shorts, no blood; furthermore, they determined they were Miller's shorts so they moved on; on the other hand the people that cling to speculation regardless of facts and developments are still stuck wondering about the bloody shorts.

Seems we are all getting a little confused. We were told they were a pair of trousers. From there you have changed them to a pair of pants and now a pair of shorts.

What is the need to change the trousers into shorts ?

You can carry on with the good policing. Just got to hope no one catches you out changing the name of things to fit the story.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/thailand-top-bangkok-cop-flies-koh-tao-investigate-david-miller-hannah-witheridge-murders-1466049

Yes, they were trousers, not shorts, doesn't change a thing:

Miller and Ware were sharing a room, the police investigated the room, found a pair of trousers with what they thought may be blood stains; since it would had been improvable for Miller to go back to his room to change blood stained clothing after being murdered the police assumed the trousers may be Ware's. Now here is where things diverge between the people speculating here and actual police work, with that assumption they actually tested the trousers, no blood; furthermore, they determined they were Miller's trousers so they moved on; on the other hand the people that cling to speculation regardless of facts and developments are still stuck wondering about the bloody trousers.

Are you quoting from what the police said? Or did you actually witness the investigation? I don't think you were there to witness the investigation. So everything you based your argument are from hearsay from the police statement. And nothing has been checked or validated by any one. Or have you checked it?

Simple answer please, can you confirm and validate the report by the police? If not, then using the statement to prove your point is pointless and speculation as well. For all we know, it was fabricated. Unless you can provide solid proof that it is true.

The RTP, at this point has a very low credibility.

[Mooner]

Denied access to CCTV is a big worry for me. Please would someone explain why someone would not allow access to their CCTV in such a high profile case which could cause future ramifications for your own business?

AleG?

[Mooner]

None of us are privy to any information on this investigation so I think its great the some posters are doing their own little investigation process.

These posters who feel the need to try to argue every post, I don't understand them!

If you agree with the RTP and are so confident in their investigation why do u feel the need to constantly rely to posts which you already claim you have debunked?

This case is a complete joke. Anyone who claims to know the truth is just a speculater!

I find the RTP supporters the worse. They have been embarrassing from the start with ridiculous statements day after day.

As you might of heard "Up to you"!

[berybert]

Yes, they were trousers, not shorts, doesn't change a thing:

Miller and Ware were sharing a room, the police investigated the room, found a pair of trousers with what they thought may be blood stains; since it would had been improvable for Miller to go back to his room to change blood stained clothing after being murdered the police assumed the trousers may be Ware's. Now here is where things diverge between the people speculating here and actual police work, with that assumption they actually tested the trousers, no blood; furthermore, they determined they were Miller's trousers so they moved on; on the other hand the people that cling to speculation regardless of facts and developments are still stuck wondering about the bloody trousers.

You are changing your story with every post. Of course David couldn't go back to his room to change his trousers. He was wearing shorts.

Do you think it wrong to go back over the clues of a murder scene ? specially one were by the police couldn't get conviction the first 7 times they tried.

Gladly we are all different. If we were all the same who knows maybe Nomsod would have hung before now. But the 2nd cop was different to the first. The second cop wants to hang 2 Burmese with what appears to be very flimsy proof. Gladly again many of us are not like him and we want to see some real evidence.

You may be happy to see people swinging from a rope with very little to prove they committed the crime. Many are not.

I'm not changing any story, it was you that claimed "Miller's pants were planted in Ware's suitcase by the police." I proved you wrong, so of course you go off in a tangent to avoid recognizing it.

DNA evidence and belongings of the victims traced back to the suspects, to name two things, don't make flimsy evidence (which is not the same as proof)

Flimsy proof is claiming Nomsod did it based on bugger all evidence... no, not just no evidence at all, against evidence to the contrary.

The reason I mention Nomsod is because the people you have total trust in are the same people who had him down as target 1.

I have gone off in no tangents at all.

It was you who claimed the trousers were pants were shorts.

As for things that trace back to the victims ? DNA that is nonsense and a phone that was Hannah's or David's depending on which day you read the story.

P.S. I don't think Nomsod killed anyone. I just mentioned he could have been hung by now if you believed everything the RTP say.

P.P.S There are hours of footage from cctv cameras. Give me one good reason the family of the AC Bar are against it being shown. Then tell me again you believe all you type. Personal property and we don't want anyone to see it. OK sounds good to me!!!!

Edited January 10, 2015 by berybert

[partington]

They can make a blind, independent test of the defendants DNA, without providing the results from the DNA from the victims to the laboratory(es), if later they don't match it would prove the prosecution evidence is questionable.

I'm sure someone is going to jump up claiming that the DNA results from the victims were tampered with, but that would have required to change the results at the very beginning to match the two Burmese an the end of a sham investigation, which is a ridiculous scenario, so really, don't bother.

First, some important background. Most people when they talk confidently about DNA testing assume that all DNA tests are looking at the same markers. In fact, there are many different kinds of DNA testing that can be done. Unless one knows, in detail, which markers one DNA test was looking at, one cannot even conduct a test on a different sample to see if there is a match. Once you know you have comparable tests, a match may or may not provide a high level of confidence that they come from the same individual. There are many factors that influence this, and not just the chain of custody of the samples.

It is very important that the defense be able to see the prosecution evidence, and especially the DNA evidence, ahead of the trial. It is my impression that strenuous efforts are being made to obstruct them.

I'm sure someone is going to jump up claiming that the DNA results from the victims were tampered with,

I am going to claim that they could have been, and probably could still be, given that very few people actually have access to those results and could testify that they were different from those in the original report.

Then just tell what methodology was used to analyze the DNA from the crime scene, simple as that.

"I am going to claim that they could have been, and probably could still be, given that very few people actually have access to those results and could testify that they were different from those in the original report."

Claims are a dime a dozen, proving that the laboratories were the analysis were carried out were complicit in a cover up since the very beginning of the investigation is something else altogether, specially since that cover-up scenario would count on the UK authorities to go along with it.

If the defense is going to just contest the results with that sort of unsupported claims they may just as well give up already.

The laboratories where the tests were carried out are not told the origin of the samples. They are given a numbered sample and told which tests to carry out. They make a report accordingly, and this is associated by the investigator with the victim. As others have repeatedly pointed out, you need to trust the investigator, and some of us do not.

that cover-up scenario would count on the UK authorities to go along with it.

I am really struggling with how the UK authorities would be able to say anything about the DNA results (unless, perhaps, the UK Home Office pathologist was able to independently extract samples after the bodies were returned to the UK). We know the Met guys were not able to review the results while here.

As a comment:

1. It is extremely unlikely that DNA was recoverable from the victim's body in the UK, since much more than a week had elapsed since the assault, meaning that intact DNA was probably not present (apologies for reposting below which I've posted before).

Quote (my emphasis) from Introduction to Forensic DNA Evidence for Criminal Justice Professionals (2013) Jane M. Taupin CRC Press:

" Sperm is destroyed quickly in the relatively hostile environment of a

vagina. Many protocols recommend the taking of vaginal samples only if

the postcoital interval is less than 72 hours or three days (Mayntz-

Press et al., 2008). The literature notes that spermatozoa, although few in number,

can sometimes persist in a vaginal canal longer than three days, but

the survival rates are longer in the cervix. It has occasionally been found

that spermatozoa survive more than a week in a deceased victim.

2. The markers used in DNA profiling do differ between different countries, but only two major sets are in use, and all tests are done nowadays with commercial kits manufactured by only a few companies. This makes results between labs and countries easy to standardise. To profile samples in the same way as the Thai lab did, all that would need to be done is to identify the particular kit used, a trivially easy task given access to the report , which must list the markers.

In any case comparing the victim and suspect DNA samples would not need to be done with the same markers as used in the Thai labs. What is being tested is the probability that the DNA from the victim is not from the suspects, and this is of the order of billions or trillions to one with any marker set with more than 10-15 markers. You must compare victim and suspect samples at the same time however on the same run, otherwise the results are not verifiable, so both victim and suspect DNA would be necessary for independent testing.

3. It is impossible to just " clandestinely take the B2 typing, re-label them 'DNA taken from Hannah' " or take the DNA from Hannah and "re-label it as from the Burmese" and the reason is simple. Each Burmese sample is from one individual and so has only two values for each marker. The DNA from the victim is a mixture of two DNAs, and will thus have four values for each marker. This is impossible to get with samples taken from one individual, and indisputably identifies a sample as being from an individual or not. Furthermore using a mixture of the cheek swabs from the Burmese and labelling it as from Hannah (unlikely as it requires technical knowledge beyond the sample collectors), would be unlikely to work, as DNA from sperm is prepared (usually) by a method which eliminates or vastly reduces non-sperm (that is, cheek swab) DNA in the sample.

However the final report is merely a typed account of the findings, giving numerical values for each of the markers. So a knowledgeable but dishonest scientist could attempt to type up a plausible report based on an analysis of the two Burmese DNAs, saying that each individual matched many of the markers found in the DNA from Hannah (even if they did not).

Any forensic DNA scientist could see this was a fabrication instantly if they ask to see the original data from the testing lab, and this is why you must hope the defense team are taking steps to recruit an expert forensic DNA witness with this capability.

Edited January 10, 2015 by partington

[Chetzee]

Another thought. The stained trousers could have belonged to James Ware. What time did he leave the island the night before the murders? And what transport did he use? Why did he leave? James is Chris's younger brother I think I read. Blood is thicker than water the saying goes.

Also, we have seen from the CCTV video that something happened on the eve and morning of 14/15 Sept as David was seen walking past the food stall. We saw a crowd of people looking in the direction of where David was coming from as if something was going down - someone shouting maybe at David. And in another video we saw the couple at the food stand looking in the direction of where David was coming from, again, the woman's face as if something odd was going on. We then see what looks like Chris Ware and one of Hannahs friends (to me anyway) arrive at the stall and David carries on walking down the street. It could have been that Ware was having issues with David or shouting at him because the woman at the stall then turns her attention back to the stall once this bloke that looks like Ware is there. We don't see anyone else walk past in that video that takes her attention. Or maybe someone was shouting at both Chris and David and they went in the other direction so did not come into view of the CCTV camera.

Also, that picture that was put up of David after he had been murdered - he had a black eye. Because we have no footage to look at from ANY source after 2am ish with David or Hannah in it, it may be possible that David got that black eye before he was murdered. Even before he got to the beach. Maybe in one of the bars, maybe at the Ocean View accommodation, or somewhere in the street or a side alley. The friends know lots plenty and that's why the defence is asking them to take the stand. They are no doubt living in terrible fear and know that whatever they say will not bring Hannah and David back. And it appears the UK police also want to protect them by refusing to do what they should be doing which is taking a stand and getting independent DNA tests done for the sake of the victims, their families and and all the other naive youngsters that are planning to take the holiday of a lifetime.

James Ware.jpg

interesting photo , to me that looks like the guy in the white baggy shirt that arrives at the food stall with the female friend , just as david continues up the road to get some fags . There is a bit of footage where david seems to come out of the bar / shop on the otherside of the road to the foods stall ( lower left of the stall )

James Ware I believe.

[loonodingle]

Andy Hall and the defense team doing their bit today in Koh Tao

He is not a dummy Andy Hall. I think those 2 lads are very lucky to have him on their side. He has degrees in Law and criminology

I made a small donation as every little helps as well.

http://www.youcaring.com/nonprofits/justice-koh-tao-murder-case/246839 is the link. If you want to help even if its 20 bucks then it is worthwhile. Better than chucking away on Ping Pong balls...Some of you will know what I mean.

[Chetzee]

Another thought. The stained trousers could have belonged to James Ware. What time did he leave the island the night before the murders? And what transport did he use? Why did he leave? James is Chris's younger brother I think I read. Blood is thicker than water the saying goes.

Also, we have seen from the CCTV video that something happened on the eve and morning of 14/15 Sept as David was seen walking past the food stall. We saw a crowd of people looking in the direction of where David was coming from as if something was going down - someone shouting maybe at David. And in another video we saw the couple at the food stand looking in the direction of where David was coming from, again, the woman's face as if something odd was going on. We then see what looks like Chris Ware and one of Hannahs friends (to me anyway) arrive at the stall and David carries on walking down the street. It could have been that Ware was having issues with David or shouting at him because the woman at the stall then turns her attention back to the stall once this bloke that looks like Ware is there. We don't see anyone else walk past in that video that takes her attention. Or maybe someone was shouting at both Chris and David and they went in the other direction so did not come into view of the CCTV camera.

Also, that picture that was put up of David after he had been murdered - he had a black eye. Because we have no footage to look at from ANY source after 2am ish with David or Hannah in it, it may be possible that David got that black eye before he was murdered. Even before he got to the beach. Maybe in one of the bars, maybe at the Ocean View accommodation, or somewhere in the street or a side alley. The friends know lots plenty and that's why the defence is asking them to take the stand. They are no doubt living in terrible fear and know that whatever they say will not bring Hannah and David back. And it appears the UK police also want to protect them by refusing to do what they should be doing which is taking a stand and getting independent DNA tests done for the sake of the victims, their families and and all the other naive youngsters that are planning to take the holiday of a lifetime.

James Ware.jpg

interesting photo , to me that looks like the guy in the white baggy shirt that arrives at the food stall with the female friend , just as david continues up the road to get some fags . There is a bit of footage where david seems to come out of the bar / shop on the otherside of the road to the foods stall ( lower left of the stall )

James Ware I believe.

crap picture i know .. . but go look for yourselves ....

[Chetzee]

Another thought. The stained trousers could have belonged to James Ware. What time did he leave the island the night before the murders? And what transport did he use? Why did he leave? James is Chris's younger brother I think I read. Blood is thicker than water the saying goes.

Also, we have seen from the CCTV video that something happened on the eve and morning of 14/15 Sept as David was seen walking past the food stall. We saw a crowd of people looking in the direction of where David was coming from as if something was going down - someone shouting maybe at David. And in another video we saw the couple at the food stand looking in the direction of where David was coming from, again, the woman's face as if something odd was going on. We then see what looks like Chris Ware and one of Hannahs friends (to me anyway) arrive at the stall and David carries on walking down the street. It could have been that Ware was having issues with David or shouting at him because the woman at the stall then turns her attention back to the stall once this bloke that looks like Ware is there. We don't see anyone else walk past in that video that takes her attention. Or maybe someone was shouting at both Chris and David and they went in the other direction so did not come into view of the CCTV camera.

Also, that picture that was put up of David after he had been murdered - he had a black eye. Because we have no footage to look at from ANY source after 2am ish with David or Hannah in it, it may be possible that David got that black eye before he was murdered. Even before he got to the beach. Maybe in one of the bars, maybe at the Ocean View accommodation, or somewhere in the street or a side alley. The friends know lots plenty and that's why the defence is asking them to take the stand. They are no doubt living in terrible fear and know that whatever they say will not bring Hannah and David back. And it appears the UK police also want to protect them by refusing to do what they should be doing which is taking a stand and getting independent DNA tests done for the sake of the victims, their families and and all the other naive youngsters that are planning to take the holiday of a lifetime.

James Ware.jpg

interesting photo , to me that looks like the guy in the white baggy shirt that arrives at the food stall with the female friend , just as david continues up the road to get some fags . There is a bit of footage where david seems to come out of the bar / shop on the otherside of the road to the foods stall ( lower left of the stall )

James Ware I believe.

crap picture i know .. . but go look for yourselves ....

[catsanddogs]

Another thought. The stained trousers could have belonged to James Ware. What time did he leave the island the night before the murders? And what transport did he use? Why did he leave? James is Chris's younger brother I think I read. Blood is thicker than water the saying goes.

Also, we have seen from the CCTV video that something happened on the eve and morning of 14/15 Sept as David was seen walking past the food stall. We saw a crowd of people looking in the direction of where David was coming from as if something was going down - someone shouting maybe at David. And in another video we saw the couple at the food stand looking in the direction of where David was coming from, again, the woman's face as if something odd was going on. We then see what looks like Chris Ware and one of Hannahs friends (to me anyway) arrive at the stall and David carries on walking down the street. It could have been that Ware was having issues with David or shouting at him because the woman at the stall then turns her attention back to the stall once this bloke that looks like Ware is there. We don't see anyone else walk past in that video that takes her attention. Or maybe someone was shouting at both Chris and David and they went in the other direction so did not come into view of the CCTV camera.

Also, that picture that was put up of David after he had been murdered - he had a black eye. Because we have no footage to look at from ANY source after 2am ish with David or Hannah in it, it may be possible that David got that black eye before he was murdered. Even before he got to the beach. Maybe in one of the bars, maybe at the Ocean View accommodation, or somewhere in the street or a side alley. The friends know lots plenty and that's why the defence is asking them to take the stand. They are no doubt living in terrible fear and know that whatever they say will not bring Hannah and David back. And it appears the UK police also want to protect them by refusing to do what they should be doing which is taking a stand and getting independent DNA tests done for the sake of the victims, their families and and all the other naive youngsters that are planning to take the holiday of a lifetime.

James Ware.jpg

interesting photo , to me that looks like the guy in the white baggy shirt that arrives at the food stall with the female friend , just as david continues up the road to get some fags . There is a bit of footage where david seems to come out of the bar / shop on the otherside of the road to the foods stall ( lower left of the stall )

James Ware I believe.

crap picture i know .. . but go look for yourselves ....

Could be James, could be Christopher. Close up looks like the guy is wearing a ring on right hand. Or maybe I'm hallucinating again.

[loonodingle]

Another thought. The stained trousers could have belonged to James Ware. What time did he leave the island the night before the murders? And what transport did he use? Why did he leave? James is Chris's younger brother I think I read. Blood is thicker than water the saying goes.

Also, we have seen from the CCTV video that something happened on the eve and morning of 14/15 Sept as David was seen walking past the food stall. We saw a crowd of people looking in the direction of where David was coming from as if something was going down - someone shouting maybe at David. And in another video we saw the couple at the food stand looking in the direction of where David was coming from, again, the woman's face as if something odd was going on. We then see what looks like Chris Ware and one of Hannahs friends (to me anyway) arrive at the stall and David carries on walking down the street. It could have been that Ware was having issues with David or shouting at him because the woman at the stall then turns her attention back to the stall once this bloke that looks like Ware is there. We don't see anyone else walk past in that video that takes her attention. Or maybe someone was shouting at both Chris and David and they went in the other direction so did not come into view of the CCTV camera.

Also, that picture that was put up of David after he had been murdered - he had a black eye. Because we have no footage to look at from ANY source after 2am ish with David or Hannah in it, it may be possible that David got that black eye before he was murdered. Even before he got to the beach. Maybe in one of the bars, maybe at the Ocean View accommodation, or somewhere in the street or a side alley. The friends know lots plenty and that's why the defence is asking them to take the stand. They are no doubt living in terrible fear and know that whatever they say will not bring Hannah and David back. And it appears the UK police also want to protect them by refusing to do what they should be doing which is taking a stand and getting independent DNA tests done for the sake of the victims, their families and and all the other naive youngsters that are planning to take the holiday of a lifetime.

James Ware.jpg

interesting photo , to me that looks like the guy in the white baggy shirt that arrives at the food stall with the female friend , just as david continues up the road to get some fags . There is a bit of footage where david seems to come out of the bar / shop on the otherside of the road to the foods stall ( lower left of the stall )

James Ware I believe.

crap picture i know .. . but go look for yourselves ....

Its not Cluedo here is it?

Are you all forgetting that 3 Different Asian DNA was recovered from the Body Of Hannah WItheridge.

No Farang DNA.

A possible witness in Sean McAnna to part of the incident. Also possible Blonde Haired Female Involvement.

I had a Medium contact me.... (its not my thing I may add) and she reckons there was a woman involved. That Hannah had a problem with a woman that night.

Just saying by the way.. as i say I am not into all that. Some of you maybe though.

[catsanddogs]

loonodingle -

Well it is actually like a game of Cluedo. The majority of people on here want to know who the real killer/s was. And attempts to find the truth involve finding out about the weapons used and the location of the crime. Unlike Cleudo though, the motive for the crime is at the top of the list.

Don't know what to believe about DNA in this case anymore, Asian or otherwise.

If your Medium contacts you again could you ask them if the woman was running and caught on CCTV? That would be most helpful, seen as the RTP have not released the images they have of a woman running on the night of the murders. Strange that.

[loonodingle]

loonodingle -

Well it is actually like a game of Cluedo. The majority of people on here want to know who the real killer/s was. And attempts to find the truth involve finding out about the weapons used and the location of the crime. Unlike Cleudo though, the motive for the crime is at the top of the list.

Don't know what to believe about DNA in this case anymore, Asian or otherwise.

If your Medium contacts you again could you ask them if the woman was running and caught on CCTV? That would be most helpful, seen as the RTP have not released the images they have of a woman running on the night of the murders. Strange that.

LOL.....

Who says she was running???

Are you a Medium as well..

I think it would be fair to say it was Asian DNA.. No Falang detained and jailed. So its Asian

They did say blonde hair....well I see the B2 did not have blonde hair yet they retrieved it from Hannah's hand. No doubt as she fought back.

Also the RTP Fed us what they want. We are the Mushrooms and you know what they grow with don't you.

As for the Cluedo game well I think its: Nomsod, On the Beach, with a Hoe............... I would like to add his Gang of thugs as well.

[loonodingle]

loonodingle -

Well it is actually like a game of Cluedo. The majority of people on here want to know who the real killer/s was. And attempts to find the truth involve finding out about the weapons used and the location of the crime. Unlike Cleudo though, the motive for the crime is at the top of the list.

Don't know what to believe about DNA in this case anymore, Asian or otherwise.

If your Medium contacts you again could you ask them if the woman was running and caught on CCTV? That would be most helpful, seen as the RTP have not released the images they have of a woman running on the night of the murders. Strange that.

Sorry missed the Motive.......

The motive was he was all over her like a rash and she wasn't having non of it. Davids taken her away from there hence he was then a target. The guy who wanted her had her and then his mate had a go as well. Another one sexually assaulted her as well. She has what appears like fingers marks on her upper body were she has been restrained by people.

[catsanddogs]

loonodingle -

Well it is actually like a game of Cluedo. The majority of people on here want to know who the real killer/s was. And attempts to find the truth involve finding out about the weapons used and the location of the crime. Unlike Cleudo though, the motive for the crime is at the top of the list.

Don't know what to believe about DNA in this case anymore, Asian or otherwise.

If your Medium contacts you again could you ask them if the woman was running and caught on CCTV? That would be most helpful, seen as the RTP have not released the images they have of a woman running on the night of the murders. Strange that.

LOL.....

Who says she was running???

Are you a Medium as well..

I think it would be fair to say it was Asian DNA.. No Falang detained and jailed. So its Asian

They did say blonde hair....well I see the B2 did not have blonde hair yet they retrieved it from Hannah's hand. No doubt as she fought back.

Also the RTP Fed us what they want. We are the Mushrooms and you know what they grow with don't you.

As for the Cluedo game well I think its: Nomsod, On the Beach, with a Hoe............... I would like to add his Gang of thugs as well.

Police are also trying to trace a mystery western woman seen on CCTV running along the main street in the early hours on the night of the murders

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/thailand-beach-murders-hannah-witheridge-4297320

I think it would be fair to say it was Asian DNA.. No Falang detained and jailed. So its Asian

Well you could then say - no Thai detained or jailed so it's Burmese.

[JLCrab]

loonodingle -

Well it is actually like a game of Cluedo. The majority of people on here want to know who the real killer/s was. And attempts to find the truth involve finding out about the weapons used and the location of the crime. Unlike Cleudo though, the motive for the crime is at the top of the list.

Don't know what to believe about DNA in this case anymore, Asian or otherwise.

If your Medium contacts you again could you ask them if the woman was running and caught on CCTV? That would be most helpful, seen as the RTP have not released the images they have of a woman running on the night of the murders. Strange that.

Sorry missed the Motive.......

The motive was he was all over her like a rash and she wasn't having non of it. Davids taken her away from there hence he was then a target. The guy who wanted her had her and then his mate had a go as well. Another one sexually assaulted her as well. She has what appears like fingers marks on her upper body were she has been restrained by people.

Just like he had to take care of all the other girls who maybe turned him down saying to him: No BJ for you tonight, big boy.

[loonodingle]

This was the Statements released by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office:

Statement from the family of Hannah Witheridge

UK detectives travelled to Thailand last month to observe and review the murder case of our precious Daughter Hannah, and also that of David Miller. We would like to thank the officers who travelled to Thailand to review the case and the Royal Thai Police for facilitating their visit.

Since their return we have been able to meet with these officers together with our family liaison officers to learn about the investigation. There is a great deal of detail and vast areas of investigative work which has been shared with us. We respect the need for such detail not to be shared publically before Royal Thai Police start their trial process.

We would like to stress that as a family we are confident in the work that has been carried out into these atrocious crimes and want to remind both press and public that they do not have the full facts to report and make comment on at this stage. Current news reporting is causing undue distress to our family.

We ask as a family, as we have throughout, that we are afforded privacy and that Hannah and David are afforded their dignity during this time of immense pain and difficulty.

Our thoughts, as always, are with the Miller family. Together we stand united and focused on seeing a fair and transparent trial process to bring about justice for our beautiful children.

Statement from the family of David Miller

We would like to express our relief that progress is being made in Thailand and this case is finally coming to court.

We would like to reiterate our gratitude to the UK Metropolitan Police, who received the co-operation of the Royal Thai Police in undertaking an independent review into the investigation.

The evidence collected by the Royal Thai police will be presented at court and we hope the suspects are granted a fair and transparent trial. We are thankful of the over-sight of pressure groups such as Reprieve and Amnesty.

In the meantime however, we ask that the speculative theories circulating on social media are not taken as fact. These interpretations are based on incomplete evidence and substantial conjecture.

The increasing sensationalism of this story in the media is emotionally hurtful to us and appears to be wide of the mark.

The support for the Myanmar suspects has been strong and vocal, but please do not jump to conclusions until you have considered the evidence from both sides in full.

From what we have seen, the suspects have a difficult case to answer. The evidence against them appears to be powerful and convincing. They must respond to these charges, and their arguments must be considered with the same scrutiny as those of the prosecution.

Please remember that this is above all a story of two wonderful young people, David and Hannah, killed in the prime of their lives in a senseless and brutal way.

Further speculation should be put aside until all the evidence is made public and appropriate conclusions can be drawn.

We remain united with the Witheridge family in our shared grief.

Ian Sue and Michael Miller

Statement from the Metropolitan Police Included the following paragraph:

The UK Police officers who deployed to Thailand operated within the parameters specified in a section 26 Authority issued by the Home Office. They did NOT conduct ANY investigations into the murder of Hannah Witheridge and David Miller.

The Thai authorities permitted the UK Police to have observer status only in relation to LIMITED parts of the Royal Thai Police’s Investigation and the UK police officers did not provide ANY advice or assistance with that investigation.

They did NOT take possession of any physical evidence, forensic evidence, exhibits interviews or statements.

The Royal Thai Police provided and interpreter who verbally translated documents that formed LIMITED parts of the prosecution case.

I may not be the cleverest person in the world but something doesn't add upto to me!!!!!!!

[loonodingle]

loonodingle -

Well it is actually like a game of Cluedo. The majority of people on here want to know who the real killer/s was. And attempts to find the truth involve finding out about the weapons used and the location of the crime. Unlike Cleudo though, the motive for the crime is at the top of the list.

Don't know what to believe about DNA in this case anymore, Asian or otherwise.

If your Medium contacts you again could you ask them if the woman was running and caught on CCTV? That would be most helpful, seen as the RTP have not released the images they have of a woman running on the night of the murders. Strange that.

Sorry missed the Motive.......

The motive was he was all over her like a rash and she wasn't having non of it. Davids taken her away from there hence he was then a target. The guy who wanted her had her and then his mate had a go as well. Another one sexually assaulted her as well. She has what appears like fingers marks on her upper body were she has been restrained by people.

Just like he had to take care of all the other girls who maybe turned him down saying to him: No BJ for you tonight, big boy.

Unfortunately neither of us know the motive crabby. There is very little facts on here that can be backed up from either side of the fence.

They will go to their deaths on the back of the DNA..unless the fact that they kept it in house raises sufficient cause for concern that the presiding judge rulers it inadmissible.

No Pornthip

No 3rd Party verification.

It must weaken their case. not sure if its enough though and non of us do. its all if buts and maybe's hey!!

[JLCrab]

I don't know of any motive or if he was involved at all -- all I'm questioning is whether this would have been the first time he had ever been turned down and what did he do every other time some farang floozie turned him down?

Edited January 10, 2015 by JLCrab