Has Anyone Bought Or Sold Land/house In The Last 2 Weeks

[wilko]

I was wondering what effect the new rulings on property ownership by companies is having on the property market. Has anyone acctually sold a house to a foriegner in the last few weeks? Is it still possible or will they all have to be sold to Thais?

Edited August 16, 2006 by wilko

[Japhrodisiac]

..................................................

(watches tumbleweed roll by...)

[backflip]

I imagine this is absolutely impossible where you are now living, and the concept is bold beyond belief, but have you ever considered actually talking ot a real estate agent about this?

[Charma]

There was a post recently that gave the date of 15th August as the commencement of an implementation of new rules of enforcement for business purchases. Have not heard anything about impact of this yet. I think it was Sunbelt that posted it. Maybe they can help?

[chownah]

Real estate agents wil almost always tell you the market is fine unless its in the newspapers everyday about bank forclosures and people jumping off buildings to end their lives because their investments are worthless. It would be good to talk with one but take it with a grain of salt.

[wilko]

I imagine this is absolutely impossible where you are now living, and the concept is bold beyond belief, but have you ever considered actually talking ot a real estate agent about this?

what's so special about where I live?

I've always considered that a real estate agent was not the right person to ask even if it was only the time of day......

So far no-one has posted saying they actually have sold a house, only the no money and lots of advice brigade....

If the answer is no then the property market in Thailand can RIP?

[JimsKnight]

I was wondering what effect the new rulings on property ownership by companies is having on the property market. Has anyone acctually sold a house to a foriegner in the last few weeks? Is it still possible or will they all have to be sold to Thais?

Lots of advice brigade... Hmm, Yup thats about the face of it!

But the other thai forums seem to suggest a Major slow-down. The truth is this, any falang who have suffered cause of the government clamp-down is staying tight-lipped for not wanting to lose face or look the fool.

How I heard plenty brag of how they could blag the law with the limited company loop-hole, well now the shts hit the fan! Big time!

Maybe if the properties are easily transfered to Thai ownership then the market will be positive?

[wilko]

I was wondering what effect the new rulings on property ownership by companies is having on the property market. Has anyone acctually sold a house to a foriegner in the last few weeks? Is it still possible or will they all have to be sold to Thais?

Lots of advice brigade... Hmm, Yup thats about the face of it!

But the other thai forums seem to suggest a Major slow-down. The truth is this, any falang who have suffered cause of the government clamp-down is staying tight-lipped for not wanting to lose face or look the fool.

How I heard plenty brag of how they could blag the law with the limited company loop-hole, well now the shts hit the fan! Big time!

Maybe if the properties are easily transfered to Thai ownership then the market will be positive?

I could see this bringing about an up-turn in the rental market as farang turn to this instaed of buying.

I think the suggestion that they will buy in their wives' names is a blind alley, as many don't have wives.

[sometime]

I was wondering what effect the new rulings on property ownership by companies is having on the property market. Has anyone acctually sold a house to a foriegner in the last few weeks? Is it still possible or will they all have to be sold to Thais?

I was only discussing this on Thursday with a very well-informed friend, and his answer was that a well known real estate company with a large law company in Bangkok has no difficulty selling property to farangs using their legal route, but it costs each farang over 100,000 baht per year to run.

My way of thinking that this is large amount for the average farangs although it is totally legal.

By the way it was not Sunbeltasia.

[wilko]

I was wondering what effect the new rulings on property ownership by companies is having on the property market. Has anyone acctually sold a house to a foriegner in the last few weeks? Is it still possible or will they all have to be sold to Thais?

I was only discussing this on Thursday with a very well-informed friend, and his answer was that a well known real estate company with a large law company in Bangkok has no difficulty selling property to farangs using their legal route, but it costs each farang over 100,000 baht per year to run.

My way of thinking that this is large amount for the average farangs although it is totally legal.

By the way it was not Sunbeltasia.

That would certainly reduce the amount any farang would be for a given property.

But still no-one has actually admitted to actually doing the deed - buying/selling a house to a farang.

[Nawtilus]

Did you ever think that the ones that sold are away for the last 2 weeks on holiday thanking god they sold.

And the ones that bought are to busy visiting lawyers, renovating and fending off the thai hostile neighbourhood to be answering your petty query.

[wilko]

Did you ever think that the ones that sold are away for the last 2 weeks on holiday thanking god they sold.

And the ones that bought are to busy visiting lawyers, renovating and fending off the thai hostile neighbourhood to be answering your petty query.

Sounds like I touched a raw nerve there!

[Nawtilus]

Not at all, but maybe you should realise that not everyone in this country that DID sell any land in the last 2 weeks may not be on this site.

I sold some land 3 weeks ago, but seeing as you only wanted 2 weeks ago, I cannot answer you, solly.

[colinj]

I was wondering what effect the new rulings on property ownership by companies is having on the property market. Has anyone acctually sold a house to a foriegner in the last few weeks? Is it still possible or will they all have to be sold to Thais?

Wilko, not much help from this lot is there. I was in Pattaya one week ago and was told by a friend in the property business that the sale of houses is completely dead at the moment but Condo's are still moving. Having said this my friend did sell his house 3 weeks ago for 8M to a farang with a thai wife. The house was in a company and he now has the money in the bank. How it was transfered I do not know.

[taxexile]

a thai agent that i know in hua hin tells me that sales of houses and land to foriegners has gone very quiet indeed compared to a few months ago.

[tominchaam]

The big problem of today is not to register land into a company as it is accepted at most Land Offices. But to register a new company with the “normal set up” is getting close to impossible (unless you have a something very attractive to offer, I guess). New companies being formed just for ownership of land might hereby have been stopped in quite a Thai way, at least for the time being.

Another problem for existing companies is if they want to have a good “set up” the cost to run such a company is now 100 k a year. Bearing in mind the owners have few alternatives it is not likely to be lower in the future.

[Nawtilus]

Whats that saying about where one opportunity falls another pops up.

Anyway, do you know what that 100k is actually broken down into these days, or is it just all fees.

[Sunbelt Asia]

There was a post recently that gave the date of 15th August as the commencement of an implementation of new rules of enforcement for business purchases. Have not heard anything about impact of this yet. I think it was Sunbelt that posted it. Maybe they can help?

It appears the company registration has slowed down in Bangkok. We still are busy ourselves but find that it takes only one day to reserve companies names by the Internet these days. The norm before was 2-3 days.

The new guidelines for land purchased with Thai companies was release on July 21st. I posted that in a earlier post. Still it does not help if you run into the wrong officer who is carrying the Thai Flag and a lapal pin wirh the words... Farang. Get out!

" So what? What about the letter " might be the response you hear and they simply do not want to see a foreigner anywhere on the company and will reject it before even looking at the money breakdown. Many others if you follow the guidelines are fine. In that case of a officer who doesn't agree with the guidelines, it is a matter of coming back another day to a officer who follows the rules.

The big key is Thais must have more money invested than the foreigners and you have to show where that money came from. The Thai law says a foreigner holding 49% of the shares, the money capital % is higher on the Thai side ( including any loan to the company) along with more Thais than farang shareholders having shares( not nominees, they must have voting rights and possible dividends) this then is not a "alien company" and can own land. The other stipulation is it must be a real trading company and file tax returns. Do that, you should be home free unless you run into a right wing officer who screeches when she sees a farang name.

More and more people are going with the right of habitation, superficies and usufruct. It often has been misunderstood this is only for 30 years but every land dept official has stated it can be for life of the foreign right holder, as long as it is not a company involved. In regards to the usufruct, it does not expire upon the death of the usufructuary, if it has been leased to a third person( then only in this case a 30 year lease applies with the third party lease.

One additional comment, it should be no problem except several hours at the Land dept if their is a man and wife around to get the right of habitation, superficies and usufruct registered for less than 100 Baht. If it is a farang getting the right of habitation, superficies and usufruct registered with no relation to the land owner, their should be a benefit. This is similar to key money in the contract. You get taxed at 1.5% not 1.25% as a standard 30 year lease.

Example of a Married Man to a Thai and Right of Habitation:

A husband married to a Thai Lady is granted a right of habitation on the land and house. No tax is collected for the right except 100 Baht or less. He can have that right till he dies. The agreement is for his life and is registered on the title deed. He also gets issue a "yellow Book" which is a House Registration Certificate (Thor.Ror.13), which is given to foreigners. His wife should have a will leaving the land and house to him.( if the house is not in his name) The right of habitation is used when the house and land purchase was combined. The husband cannot operate a business at this location. By the way, the husband has no rights to the ownership of the land unless she dies, as he signed a declaration that it was a gift and he is not expecting anything back, it is her money now to buy the land.

Example of a Single Male and Usufruct:

A farang is not married. He talks to a seller of a plot of land. He gets a usufruct instead of buying the land and pays 5 million Baht for that right to use and enjoy the property as well as management of the property. The government fees are 75,000 Baht. The agreement is for his life and is registered on the title deed. He also gets issue a "yellow Book" which is a House Registration Certificate (Thor.Ror.13), which is given to foreigners. With the usufruct, he can sell or transfer the right. If the house burns down, the usufruct ends until it is restored. This is why insurance is important to be paid to the benefit of the owner. A inventory should be taken and registered with the usufruct. If he has transfer the usufruct to a third party, it does not end on his death but when the 30 year term expires for the third party.

Example of a Farang Couple and Superficies:

A farang couple want to retire in Thailand. They find a plot of land and want to build a house and register a superficies for both of their natural lives. They are given the right to own, upon or under the land, buildings, structures or plantations. The right was granted for 2 million Baht and the tax due was 30,000 Baht. This right can be transferred and transmissible by way of inheritance. If the farang husband dies, the wife can still live on the property and can even leave in her will. A 30 year term than applies to the person who inherits the right. Both husband and wife are registered on the title deed. They also get issue a "yellow Book" which is a House Registration Certificate (Thor.Ror.13), which is given to foreigners. This agreement is common when it is a plot of land and the house has to be built.

Example of a Single Farang Lady and a Thirty Year Lease:

She would like to stay in Thailand and finds some beach front property. She obtains a 30 year lease plus a option of 30 years. The real rights are only the 30 years to have the use or benefit of the property and no guarantee she will ever get the additional 30 years. The land lease ends when she dies. The government has a charged tax of 1.25% on the 30 years lease. (rent must be charged)

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Nawtilus]

Interesting.

How about a farang not married to a thai but having a defacto relationship (same as being bloody married in some counti=ries) for several years and having Thai children together.

Is the 1.5% tax on 30 year lease based on the total lease amount ie 30,000b per month x 12 months x 30 years ? Does the lease amount have a minimum value ?

[Khun Jean]

Example of a Married Man to a Thai and Right of Habitation:

A husband married to a Thai Lady is granted a right of habitation on the land and house. No tax is collected for the right except 100 Baht or less. He can have that right till he dies. The agreement is for his life and is registered on the title deed. He also gets issue a "yellow Book" which is a House Registration Certificate (Thor.Ror.13), which is given to foreigners. His wife should have a will leaving the land and house to him.( if the house is not in his name) The right of habitation is used when the house and land purchase was combined. The husband cannot operate a business at this location. By the way, the husband has no rights to the ownership of the land unless she dies, as he signed a declaration that it was a gift and he is not expecting anything back, it is her money now to buy the land.

Example of a Single Male and Usufruct:

A farang is not married. He talks to a seller of a plot of land. He gets a usufruct instead of buying the land and pays 5 million Baht for that right to use and enjoy the property as well as management of the property. The government fees are 75,000 Baht. The agreement is for his life and is registered on the title deed. He also gets issue a "yellow Book" which is a House Registration Certificate (Thor.Ror.13), which is given to foreigners. With the usufruct, he can sell or transfer the right. If the house burns down, the usufruct ends until it is restored. This is why insurance is important to be paid to the benefit of the owner. A inventory should be taken and registered with the usufruct. If he has transfer the usufruct to a third party, it does not end on his death but when the 30 year term expires for the third party.

Example of a Farang Couple and Superficies:

A farang couple want to retire in Thailand. They find a plot of land and want to build a house and register a superficies for both of their natural lives. They are given the right to own, upon or under the land, buildings, structures or plantations. The right was granted for 2 million Baht and the tax due was 30,000 Baht. This right can be transferred and transmissible by way of inheritance. If the farang husband dies, the wife can still live on the property and can even leave in her will. A 30 year term than applies to the person who inherits the right. Both husband and wife are registered on the title deed. They also get issue a "yellow Book" which is a House Registration Certificate (Thor.Ror.13), which is given to foreigners. This agreement is common when it is a plot of land and the house has to be built.

Example of a Single Farang Lady and a Thirty Year Lease:

She would like to stay in Thailand and finds some beach front property. She obtains a 30 year lease plus a option of 30 years. The real rights are only the 30 years to have the use or benefit of the property and no guarantee she will ever get the additional 30 years. The land lease ends when she dies. The government has a charged tax of 1.25% on the 30 years lease. (rent must be charged)

PIN this post and most peoples problems are over!

[rotherham7]

with regard to a retirement what if the house is already built.will your solution still apply?

[Dragonman]

There was a post recently that gave the date of 15th August as the commencement of an implementation of new rules of enforcement for business purchases. Have not heard anything about impact of this yet. I think it was Sunbelt that posted it. Maybe they can help?

It appears the company registration has slowed down in Bangkok. We still are busy ourselves but find that it takes only one day to reserve companies names by the Internet these days. The norm before was 2-3 days.

The new guidelines for land purchased with Thai companies was release on July 21st. I posted that in a earlier post. Still it does not help if you run into the wrong officer who is carrying the Thai Flag and a lapal pin wirh the words... Farang. Get out!

" So what? What about the letter " might be the response you hear and they simply do not want to see a foreigner anywhere on the company and will reject it before even looking at the money breakdown. Many others if you follow the guidelines are fine. In that case of a officer who doesn't agree with the guidelines, it is a matter of coming back another day to a officer who follows the rules.

The big key is Thais must have more money invested than the foreigners and you have to show where that money came from. The Thai law says a foreigner holding 49% of the shares, the money capital % is higher on the Thai side ( including any loan to the company) along with more Thais than farang shareholders having shares( not nominees, they must have voting rights and possible dividends) this then is not a "alien company" and can own land. The other stipulation is it must be a real trading company and file tax returns. Do that, you should be home free unless you run into a right wing officer who screeches when she sees a farang name.

More and more people are going with the right of habitation, superficies and usufruct. It often has been misunderstood this is only for 30 years but every land dept official has stated it can be for life of the foreign right holder, as long as it is not a company involved. In regards to the usufruct, it does not expire upon the death of the usufructuary, if it has been leased to a third person( then only in this case a 30 year lease applies with the third party lease.

One additional comment, it should be no problem except several hours at the Land dept if their is a man and wife around to get the right of habitation, superficies and usufruct registered for less than 100 Baht. If it is a farang getting the right of habitation, superficies and usufruct registered with no relation to the land owner, their should be a benefit. This is similar to key money in the contract. You get taxed at 1.5% not 1.25% as a standard 30 year lease.

Example of a Married Man to a Thai and Right of Habitation:

A husband married to a Thai Lady is granted a right of habitation on the land and house. No tax is collected for the right except 100 Baht or less. He can have that right till he dies. The agreement is for his life and is registered on the title deed. He also gets issue a "yellow Book" which is a House Registration Certificate (Thor.Ror.13), which is given to foreigners. His wife should have a will leaving the land and house to him.( if the house is not in his name) The right of habitation is used when the house and land purchase was combined. The husband cannot operate a business at this location. By the way, the husband has no rights to the ownership of the land unless she dies, as he signed a declaration that it was a gift and he is not expecting anything back, it is her money now to buy the land.

Example of a Single Male and Usufruct:

A farang is not married. He talks to a seller of a plot of land. He gets a usufruct instead of buying the land and pays 5 million Baht for that right to use and enjoy the property as well as management of the property. The government fees are 75,000 Baht. The agreement is for his life and is registered on the title deed. He also gets issue a "yellow Book" which is a House Registration Certificate (Thor.Ror.13), which is given to foreigners. With the usufruct, he can sell or transfer the right. If the house burns down, the usufruct ends until it is restored. This is why insurance is important to be paid to the benefit of the owner. A inventory should be taken and registered with the usufruct. If he has transfer the usufruct to a third party, it does not end on his death but when the 30 year term expires for the third party.

Example of a Farang Couple and Superficies:

A farang couple want to retire in Thailand. They find a plot of land and want to build a house and register a superficies for both of their natural lives. They are given the right to own, upon or under the land, buildings, structures or plantations. The right was granted for 2 million Baht and the tax due was 30,000 Baht. This right can be transferred and transmissible by way of inheritance. If the farang husband dies, the wife can still live on the property and can even leave in her will. A 30 year term than applies to the person who inherits the right. Both husband and wife are registered on the title deed. They also get issue a "yellow Book" which is a House Registration Certificate (Thor.Ror.13), which is given to foreigners. This agreement is common when it is a plot of land and the house has to be built.

Example of a Single Farang Lady and a Thirty Year Lease:

She would like to stay in Thailand and finds some beach front property. She obtains a 30 year lease plus a option of 30 years. The real rights are only the 30 years to have the use or benefit of the property and no guarantee she will ever get the additional 30 years. The land lease ends when she dies. The government has a charged tax of 1.25% on the 30 years lease. (rent must be charged)

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

I do not often disagree with Sunbelt, and as I have stated on another thread, under Civil & Commercial Code this seems OK. However there are many pitfalls with regard to judicial decisions regarding Servitudes, not just in Thailand, but in every Country where such extremely old Civil Law exists. It is in fact one of the most challenged aspects of Property Law in the last 2100 years. Hence does not exist in Common Law Countries.

I doubt I will be here to say "told you so" in 30 years, but suspect lawyers, and "homes for old farangs", will be making a roaring trade.

[thaigene2]

Regarding Sunbelt..there's a good interview with the guy from that company in stickman's website. Sunbelt guy says he rents!

[Sunbelt Asia]

How about a farang not married to a thai but having a defacto relationship (same as being bloody married in some counti=ries) for several years and having Thai children together.

Is the 1.5% tax on 30 year lease based on the total lease amount ie 30,000b per month x 12 months x 30 years ? Does the lease amount have a minimum value ?

The 1.5 % tax is on the total amount.

Take the birth certificate of the children to the Land Dept and this should be enough proof to allow no benefit to be charged as well as no tax.

Regarding Sunbelt..there's a good interview with the guy from that company in stickman's website. Sunbelt guy says he rents!

My wife owns three properties but on the otherhand I rent as well. Different strokes for different folks.

with regard to a retirement what if the house is already built.will your solution still apply?

It will be with right of habitation or usufruct.

I do not often disagree with Sunbelt, and as I have stated on another thread, under Civil & Commercial Code this seems OK.

Thanks Dragonman. Your post is well taken. As of now this is all covered under the Civil Commercial Code and we have gotten it cleared with different views. No one can find a code which states it is would be illegal for foreigners to have Servitudes but as you stated before interpretations can always happen with any law even if it seems black and white. It certainly is not in the Land act that it is illegal. The fact remains, no matter what rights the foreigner has to the land during the term, the foreigner does not own any interest in the land. The Land dept takes the same viewpoint and will allow the registration of the Servitudes on the title deed.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[thaigene2]

Regarding Sunbelt..there's a good interview with the guy from that company in stickman's website. Sunbelt guy says he rents!

My wife owns three properties but on the otherhand I rent as well. Different strokes for different folks.

The fact remains, no matter what rights the foreigner has to the land during the term, the foreigner does not own any interest in the land.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

...Which kind of brings us back to the question - Why Buy?? Rent - then walk away (or run, depending on your situation!)

[wilko]

Regarding Sunbelt..there's a good interview with the guy from that company in stickman's website. Sunbelt guy says he rents!

My wife owns three properties but on the otherhand I rent as well. Different strokes for different folks.

The fact remains, no matter what rights the foreigner has to the land during the term, the foreigner does not own any interest in the land.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

...Which kind of brings us back to the question - Why Buy?? Rent - then walk away (or run, depending on your situation!)

So what will this do to rents on houses? Do you they will increase if potential buyers get put off by an unfamiliar legal situation?

[moose]

Hi

On the surficies section from Sunbelt it states that the couple have the right of habitation for the rest of there natural lives does this apply past 30 years? Also can a property on land with surficies be sold?

[Sunbelt Asia]

Hi

On the surficies section from Sunbelt it states that the couple have the right of habitation for the rest of there natural lives does this apply past 30 years? Also can a property on land with surficies be sold?

Yes it applies past 30 years. ( if you live longer than 30 years)

Also can a property on land with surficies be sold?

Land cannot be sold or transferred by the owner of the land if a right of habitation, superficies or usufruct is registered. The right would have to be cancelled only by the right holder in order for the land to be sold.

Superficies

The owner of land may create a right of superficies in favour of another person or a Thai company whereby the superficiary (the person given the right) is granted the right to own upon the land, buildings, other structures or plantations but not the land. Four options to choose from, it can be created for a period of time of thirty years or the natural life of the superficiary or the owner of the lands natural life or no period of time has been fixed.

If the option of a 30 year period of time, then it can be both transferable and transmissible by the way of inheritance as long as the contract allows it. A renewable 30 – year maximum term applies to the third party.

If no period of time has been fixed (ie: 30 year time or natural life), the right of superficies may be terminated at any time by either party giving reasonable notice to each other. But when rent is to be paid, either one year’s previous notice must be given or rent for one year period.

If the option of the owner’s natural life was chosen, the right of superficies is terminated upon his death.

If the option of the superficiary natural life was chosen, it can be both transferable and transmissible by the way of inheritance as long as the contract allows it. A renewable 30 – year maximum term applies to the third party.

Further, a superficies is not extinguished by the destruction of the buildings, structures or plantations even if caused by forced majeure. The superficiary has the right to remove buildings, structures or plantations upon the expiry of the superficies, provided the owner of the land is first given the opportunity to purchase them at market value. (The superficiary must not refuse the offer except on reasonable ground). If the owner of the land is not interested in purchasing the buildings, structures or plantations, the land otherwise must be restored to its former condition prior to returning it to the owner.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Schooner]

I live in a small new farang village in Pattaya. One of the new 4br houses sold within the last month and two have been rented. There are 2 - 2bedroom villas for sale, mine and a friends. We've both had people looking and it appears to be picking up over the past few weeks. Who knows what is going to happen, but I think that there is a large number of people close to retirement in the west who will want to give Thailand a go. BTW, even though things are slow now, prices appear to be staying put.

I'm told that existing "companies" are not being looked at and "selling" is a matter of transferring the company and director. Don't have to involve the land office.

[moose]

Hi

On the surficies section from Sunbelt it states that the couple have the right of habitation for the rest of there natural lives does this apply past 30 years? Also can a property on land with surficies be sold?

Yes it applies past 30 years. ( if you live longer than 30 years)

Superficies

The owner of land may create a right of superficies in favour of another person or a Thai company whereby the superficiary (the person given the right) is granted the right to own upon the land, buildings, other structures or plantations but not the land. Four options to choose from, it can be created for a period of time of thirty years or the natural life of the superficiary or the owner of the lands natural life or no period of time has been fixed.

If the option of a 30 year period of time, then it can be both transferable and transmissible by the way of inheritance as long as the contract allows it. A renewable 30 – year maximum term applies to the third party.

If no period of time has been fixed (ie: 30 year time or natural life), the right of superficies may be terminated at any time by either party giving reasonable notice to each other. But when rent is to be paid, either one year’s previous notice must be given or rent for one year period.

If the option of the owner’s natural life was chosen, the right of superficies is terminated upon his death.

If the option of the superficiary natural life was chosen, it can be both transferable and transmissible by the way of inheritance as long as the contract allows it. A renewable 30 – year maximum term applies to the third party.

Further, a superficies is not extinguished by the destruction of the buildings, structures or plantations even if caused by forced majeure. The superficiary has the right to remove buildings, structures or plantations upon the expiry of the superficies, provided the owner of the land is first given the opportunity to purchase them at market value. (The superficiary must not refuse the offer except on reasonable ground). If the owner of the land is not interested in purchasing the buildings, structures or plantations, the land otherwise must be restored to its former condition prior to returning it to the owner.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Many thanks for the info. Why don't people use this route instead of companies? are there any drawbacks? It would appear to be legal and less expensive than the company route or am I missing something? thanks again.