Thai editorial: Beware of Chinese bearing 'gifts'

[Sviss Geez]

"BANGKOK: -- Recent incidents in Myanmar and Vietnam offer lessons for the Thai government JUNTA under Prime Minister Prayut Chan-o-cha on.........."

Let's do some editing here and get NATION to do a better job of reporting the facts!

Yes, I am a stickler when reading news articles and see incorrect information being splashed on the internet!

A Stickler? Some would say inaccurate, pedantic, Thai basher. The Nation's reference to the incidents in Myanmar and Vietnam was factual. The Nation's reference to Prayut being Prime Minister was correct. The Nation's reference to those that run the country as being the government was correct also.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Sviss Geez

[NongKhaiKid]

This headline should be for the govt not the public.

good god how do you manage to breath & stay alive ? :-)

?

[MiKT]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Yep , get ready for it. If you think Thai safety is bad , which it is , The Chinese will take it down to a whole new level.

This is where all this "Finish in 2 years" nonsense becomes dangerous , they will use the schedule completion date to ride roughshod over Safety and Quality regulations. They do it in their own country , they will do it here

I have the opposite experience. The train system in China is very well maintained and if they get the same build it will be a step up. What needs to be watched out for is sneaky Chinese ways, and no I'm not being racist there is in fact a phrase for this in Chinese I think it is the same word as "ghost" ie: gui 鬼, some of them have ulterior motives in SE Asia and see SE Asians as an inferior race, ripe to be exploited. Take what's good from them then send them back to China (the "bad" ones at least).

It may be maintained but the quality of the build was poor , believe me I have first hand experience of it. What will find with many of the PDLs is the design speed cannot be achieved or maintained over any distance due to the poor quality of the construction , in some cases the line speed is designed at 380 and has been restricted to 240. There is also the question of Durability , the contract life time if 90 years

I put some Pictures of Chinese High speed "Quality " on a thread yesterday , maybe have a look. Not disputing their maintenance endeavors , high speed has low maintenance components so they should not have to do much

high speed has low maintenance components so they should not have to do much?? If you believe this, you don't know much about maintenance. High speed (Chinese or otherwise) requires much more maintenance than low speed. This applies to any mechanical device, trains, cars, washing machines, ships, aircraft, etc.

You don't need to be a mechanical engineer to know this (but it helps) simply look up "wear" on the internet.

[elgordo38]

The Chinese did a fantastic job building the Tibet railway..........but hundreds (~1600) of their workers, mainly military personnel, died on the project.

They have very poor safety standards.....massive road tolls......shoddy and cheap electrical and other consumer goods....faking everything possible almost.....but with the promises of "cheap" money....which often means rewards for the select few....is in part, the reason they are able get a foothold in developing nations.

Same deal as the Bangkok bus bids. Price clobbers quality every time. Get the money and run.

[car720]

Nobody get anything for nothing no matter who or what you are. The Chinese analyze and plan things years or decades ahead.

The majority of Thai's struggle to remember what happened yesterday. My best advice to the Kingdom is, "Beware a Wolf in Sheep's Clothing".

Yea, but you can't blame the Chinese for that.

Who was it that minted the phrase "never give a sucker an even break"?

This is capitalism at its finest. Not communism.

[Old Man River]

"BANGKOK: -- Recent incidents in Myanmar and Vietnam offer lessons for the Thai government JUNTA under Prime Minister Prayut Chan-o-cha on.........."

Let's do some editing here and get NATION to do a better job of reporting the facts!

Yes, I am a stickler when reading news articles and see incorrect information being splashed on the internet!

You quote an interesting part of this article. Many times since the coup have I read how Thailand doesn't need or want ideas or help from non-thais. So what makes this writer think that Thais would learn something from those countries? Especially when thais also think they are inferior to those countries.

Chinese Thais think the world of them.......after all..that's where their heritage is.

That is a gross generality.

[car720]

Schedule, Cost, Quality.

If you want to meet Schedule for low cost, Quality will suffer.

It's basic Project Management...

if you climb in bed with a lice covered flea infected carrior of all known STD'S, then you cannot complain when lil jimmy falls off :-)

What the hell are you smoking man?

Sounds like good stuff to me....

[ExPratt]

It may be maintained but the quality of the build was poor , believe me I have first hand experience of it. What will find with many of the PDLs is the design speed cannot be achieved or maintained over any distance due to the poor quality of the construction , in some cases the line speed is designed at 380 and has been restricted to 240. There is also the question of Durability , the contract life time if 90 years

I put some Pictures of Chinese High speed "Quality " on a thread yesterday , maybe have a look. Not disputing their maintenance endeavors , high speed has low maintenance components so they should not have to do much

high speed has low maintenance components so they should not have to do much?? If you believe this, you don't know much about maintenance. High speed (Chinese or otherwise) requires much more maintenance than low speed. This applies to any mechanical device, trains, cars, washing machines, ships, aircraft, etc.

You don't need to be a mechanical engineer to know this (but it helps) simply look up "wear" on the internet.

What Track maintenance is there to do on Trackslab Mate, very little , The track recording Vehicle and U/T testing go out on a regular basis and anything needing re-railing or transposing will be done , but its hardly flat out maintenance if the manning levels are correct.The track fastenings , usually the most problematic components are Vossloh (German) and are low maintenance. Ive been in the game 27 years mate in both Taiwan high speed rail and PRC high speed and I or anyone will tell you that Trackslab is far easier to Maintain than Ballast track , always losing line and level and tamping/packing programs are on going

[ExPratt]

Oh yeah and when you talk about wear , that you think I should Look up . There is not one curve on High speed Rail that is Smaller that a 7000 metre radius , therefore in these case wear/sidecut is minimal , I'll tell you the rate of changes of the curve if you like , or do know all about those as well

Edited January 13, 2015 by ExPratt

[Bluespunk]

This headline should be for the govt not the public.

good god how do you manage to breath & stay alive ? :-)

?

I didn't get it either.

[laobali]

"BANGKOK: -- Recent incidents in Myanmar and Vietnam offer lessons for the Thai government JUNTA under Prime Minister Prayut Chan-o-cha on.........."

Let's do some editing here and get NATION to do a better job of reporting the facts!

Yes, I am a stickler when reading news articles and see incorrect information being splashed on the internet!

You quote an interesting part of this article. Many times since the coup have I read how Thailand doesn't need or want ideas or help from non-thais. So what makes this writer think that Thais would learn something from those countries? Especially when thais also think they are inferior to those countries.

Chinese Thais think the world of them.......after all..that's where their heritage is.

That is a gross generality.

I thought that was 144 generals - Thai of course .

[MiKT]

It may be maintained but the quality of the build was poor , believe me I have first hand experience of it. What will find with many of the PDLs is the design speed cannot be achieved or maintained over any distance due to the poor quality of the construction , in some cases the line speed is designed at 380 and has been restricted to 240. There is also the question of Durability , the contract life time if 90 years

I put some Pictures of Chinese High speed "Quality " on a thread yesterday , maybe have a look. Not disputing their maintenance endeavors , high speed has low maintenance components so they should not have to do much

high speed has low maintenance components so they should not have to do much?? If you believe this, you don't know much about maintenance. High speed (Chinese or otherwise) requires much more maintenance than low speed. This applies to any mechanical device, trains, cars, washing machines, ships, aircraft, etc.

You don't need to be a mechanical engineer to know this (but it helps) simply look up "wear" on the internet.

What Track maintenance is there to do on Trackslab Mate, very little , The track recording Vehicle and U/T testing go out on a regular basis and anything needing re-railing or transposing will be done , but its hardly flat out maintenance if the manning levels are correct.The track fastenings , usually the most problematic components are Vossloh (German) and are low maintenance. Ive been in the game 27 years mate in both Taiwan high speed rail and PRC high speed and I or anyone will tell you that Trackslab is far easier to Maintain than Ballast track , always losing line and level and tamping/packing programs are on going

Well 'Mate" If you want a pissing contest, I have been in the engineering game for 54 years..........which is twice as long as you - 47 years with railways; and I am still at it in Thailand having worked on well over a dozen railways including some of the best railways in the world, also Taiwan (which is not) + the Chunnel.

If you were talking about track slabs, you should have made it clear in your post you said 'high speed has low maintenance components so they should not have to do much' which is rubbish, typical track man, knows less than 1% of sfa about real railway issues.

Also many real track engineers will tell you that Vossloh fastners have the worst maintenance perormace of all rail fastners as they rust easily. (Vossloh please note this is hearsay, I am sure you will be willing to prove otherwise).

Plus, plus, actually leaving aside the issues you have raised, many Chinese companies make excellent railway related equipment nowadays and their metro's are pretty good. I don't like the idea of them doing the double tracking here, but for political, not railway quality related reasons.

I do like most of your posts. But do try to keep it specific in engineering terms 'old boy'.

[ehw200]

in my experience the Chinese hate to spend money om Maintenance

in one Asian country they have bought several mid range hotels,,,the prices have not risen dramatically but the rooms have deteriorated miserably

here in Thailand a Chinese group bought a gold course with a contract to maintain pool, exercise room and games room which 3 condos buildings had use of,,,guaranteed at point of sale

the pool has been closed for 7 years and the rest is rotting away

I hear the locker room and clubhouse is also in bad repair

seems the only thing they maintain is the course because they have to or close

if you golf Crystal Bay,,,please don't,,,these people need to be forced into bankruptcy and a new owner found

[Thai at Heart]

Thailand has made its bed. And now it must sleep in it.

It will make a pleasant diversion from farang bashing.

[MiKT]

Oh yeah and when you talk about wear , that you think I should Look up . There is not one curve on High speed Rail that is Smaller that a 7000 metre radius , therefore in these case wear/sidecut is minimal , I'll tell you the rate of changes of the curve if you like , or do know all about those as well

Funnily enough I do. I even have special software programme that calculates controlled clothoid spline's. But I never use it as Mathcad always does the trick for me for transition curves and superelevation, including cant deficiency, cant excess, etc.

but what about wear at the dreaded wheel/track interface, don't HS train wheels need a lot of re-grinding? plus burning up the rails with wheel slip(especially when suffering from the 'wrong type of snow', leaves on the line, etc.)

Actually I am winding-you up, I do know how to do those calculations, but this is not my field of expertise, I have just suffered from working with track men for ever.

[anon022]

It's "that we have borrowed the money", not "that we have loaned the money" from you.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Impossible

[boomerangutang]

Yesterday I bought a pair of cheapo clippers - for trimming plants. Made in China. I clipped three little sprigs. The fourth one broke the handle. There's a big shop in town with hundreds of electric tools for sale. All the power tools 'Made in China' are half the price of the name brands (same sizes and models) which they try to copy. Chinese are rather good at copying, but in their eagerness to save a few satang, they'll skimp on thickness of metal, and quality/strength of metal. Even the wire is as thin as possible. If the tool switches on when purchased, that's good enough. If it breaks a week later, well, too bad, but the money's already been garnered from the sale.

[thailiketoo]

Schedule, Cost, Quality.

If you want to meet Schedule for low cost, Quality will suffer.

It's basic Project Management...

if you climb in bed with a lice covered flea infected carrior of all known STD'S, then you cannot complain when lil jimmy falls off :-)

Interesting choice of words. Really funny if you speak Thai.

[ExPratt]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

It may be maintained but the quality of the build was poor , believe me I have first hand experience of it. What will find with many of the PDLs is the design speed cannot be achieved or maintained over any distance due to the poor quality of the construction , in some cases the line speed is designed at 380 and has been restricted to 240. There is also the question of Durability , the contract life time if 90 years

I put some Pictures of Chinese High speed "Quality " on a thread yesterday , maybe have a look. Not disputing their maintenance endeavors , high speed has low maintenance components so they should not have to do much

high speed has low maintenance components so they should not have to do much?? If you believe this, you don't know much about maintenance. High speed (Chinese or otherwise) requires much more maintenance than low speed. This applies to any mechanical device, trains, cars, washing machines, ships, aircraft, etc.

You don't need to be a mechanical engineer to know this (but it helps) simply look up "wear" on the internet.


What Track maintenance is there to do on Trackslab Mate, very little , The track recording Vehicle and U/T testing go out on a regular basis and anything needing re-railing or transposing will be done , but its hardly flat out maintenance if the manning levels are correct.The track fastenings , usually the most problematic components are Vossloh (German) and are low maintenance. Ive been in the game 27 years mate in both Taiwan high speed rail and PRC high speed and I or anyone will tell you that Trackslab is far easier to Maintain than Ballast track , always losing line and level and tamping/packing programs are on going

Well 'Mate" If you want a pissing contest, I have been in the engineering game for 54 years..........which is twice as long as you - 47 years with railways; and I am still at it in Thailand having worked on well over a dozen railways including some of the best railways in the world, also Taiwan (which is not) + the Chunnel.

If you were talking about track slabs, you should have made it clear in your post you said 'high speed has low maintenance components so they should not have to do much' which is rubbish, typical track man, knows less than 1% of sfa about real railway issues.

Also many real track engineers will tell you that Vossloh fastners have the worst maintenance perormace of all rail fastners as they rust easily. (Vossloh please note this is hearsay, I am sure you will be willing to prove otherwise).

Plus, plus, actually leaving aside the issues you have raised, many Chinese companies make excellent railway related equipment nowadays and their metro's are pretty good. I don't like the idea of them doing the double tracking here, but for political, not railway quality related reasons.

I do like most of your posts. But do try to keep it specific in engineering terms 'old boy'.

Hahahaha , I'm quite enjoying this, nice comeback. Respect first off for having that experience , you must have seen some changes.

What happens with the Vossloh fasteners is they have a coating , you've seen all the different colours. when those sleepers are loaded the lifting point is the on the fastener believe it or not and it scratches off the enamel allowing rust to form over a time . you'll usually see 2 spots of rust either side of the screw where the enamel comes of where the lifting chains have been attached. Its usually an issue with every clients consultant and then voslloh come back and say its normal and no depreciation in the durability of the component.

Ive just finished a 5 year contract in Malaysia , Ballast track and I must say after Many years building track slab I found it horrible to build and Maintain, constantly returning to tamp and pack,build shoulders back up ect, I was managing the installation of 450 CogiferTurnouts and their Maintenance many of which had hogged long bearers , so I had plenty of headaches with those.Turnouts. That is why , perhaps hastily , that purely from a Track perspective I find the Track Maintenance on high speed easier , bit of shimming here and there for Track Parameters

I see in your other post you are aware of rates of change, one problem we had in China was just before Track construction started the Chinese wanted to up the cant from 100 to 150 on a 7000m radius curve , so we asked for new alignment , obviously the run in out of the curves would lengthen , as i recall the rate of change was 1mm in 6 Metres , so quite a significant change. Anyway they asked if we could do it ourselves and we refused , so it got built at 100

Oh and you have software to work those out ? I do it on my head

Edited January 13, 2015 by ExPratt

[MiKT]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

It may be maintained but the quality of the build was poor , believe me I have first hand experience of it. What will find with many of the PDLs is the design speed cannot be achieved or maintained over any distance due to the poor quality of the construction , in some cases the line speed is designed at 380 and has been restricted to 240. There is also the question of Durability , the contract life time if 90 years

I put some Pictures of Chinese High speed "Quality " on a thread yesterday , maybe have a look. Not disputing their maintenance endeavors , high speed has low maintenance components so they should not have to do much

high speed has low maintenance components so they should not have to do much?? If you believe this, you don't know much about maintenance. High speed (Chinese or otherwise) requires much more maintenance than low speed. This applies to any mechanical device, trains, cars, washing machines, ships, aircraft, etc.

You don't need to be a mechanical engineer to know this (but it helps) simply look up "wear" on the internet.

What Track maintenance is there to do on Trackslab Mate, very little , The track recording Vehicle and U/T testing go out on a regular basis and anything needing re-railing or transposing will be done , but its hardly flat out maintenance if the manning levels are correct.The track fastenings , usually the most problematic components are Vossloh (German) and are low maintenance. Ive been in the game 27 years mate in both Taiwan high speed rail and PRC high speed and I or anyone will tell you that Trackslab is far easier to Maintain than Ballast track , always losing line and level and tamping/packing programs are on going

Well 'Mate" If you want a pissing contest, I have been in the engineering game for 54 years..........which is twice as long as you - 47 years with railways; and I am still at it in Thailand having worked on well over a dozen railways including some of the best railways in the world, also Taiwan (which is not) + the Chunnel.

If you were talking about track slabs, you should have made it clear in your post you said 'high speed has low maintenance components so they should not have to do much' which is rubbish, typical track man, knows less than 1% of sfa about real railway issues.

Also many real track engineers will tell you that Vossloh fastners have the worst maintenance perormace of all rail fastners as they rust easily. (Vossloh please note this is hearsay, I am sure you will be willing to prove otherwise).

Plus, plus, actually leaving aside the issues you have raised, many Chinese companies make excellent railway related equipment nowadays and their metro's are pretty good. I don't like the idea of them doing the double tracking here, but for political, not railway quality related reasons.

I do like most of your posts. But do try to keep it specific in engineering terms 'old boy'.

Hahahaha , I'm quite enjoying this, nice comeback. Respect first off for having that experience , you must have seen some changes.

What happens with the Vossloh fasteners is they have a coating , you've seen all the different colours. when those sleepers are loaded the lifting point is the on the fastener believe it or not and it scratches off the enamel allowing rust to form over a time . you'll usually see 2 spots of rust either side of the screw where the enamel comes of where the lifting chains have been attached. Its usually an issue with every clients consultant and then voslloh come back and say its normal and no depreciation in the durability of the component.

Ive just finished a 5 year contract in Malaysia , Ballast track and I must say after Many years building track slab I found it horrible to build and Maintain, constantly returning to tamp and pack,build shoulders back up ect, I was managing the installation of 450 CogiferTurnouts and their Maintenance many of which had hogged long bearers , so I had plenty of headaches with those.Turnouts. That is why , perhaps hastily , that purely from a Track perspective I find the Track Maintenance on high speed easier , bit of shimming here and there for Track Parameters

I see in your other post you are aware of rates of change, one problem we had in China was just before Track construction started the Chinese wanted to up the cant from 100 to 150 on a 7000m radius curve , so we asked for new alignment , obviously the run in out of the curves would lengthen , as i recall the rate of change was 1mm in 6 Metres , so quite a significant change. Anyway they asked if we could do it ourselves and we refused , so it got built at 100

Oh and you have software to work those out ? I do it on my head

Yes, back in the day we built the railway track out of wood, wore out quicker than soap with a nun.

Thanks for your great personal post. I have huge respect for your track experience, it not my area at all, but a good trackman (who you probably know) told me about Vossloh fastners.

I only do it on my head when the missus is in a funny mood.

[Cake Monster]

China only has one objective, and that is the domination of the SE Asian Nations, in order to secure future food and resources for the masses, and if they can get those Nations to foot 50% or so of the cost incurred in doing that, then fair play to them for playing the game against short sighted countries and their leaders.

[laobali]

China only has one objective, and that is the domination of the SE Asian Nations, in order to secure future food and resources for the masses, and if they can get those Nations to foot 50% or so of the cost incurred in doing that, then fair play to them for playing the game against short sighted countries and their leaders.

China only has one objective, and that is the domination of the SE Asian all Nations. They're nearly everywhere already. Close neighbours first, though.

[boomerangutang]

China only has one objective, and that is the domination of the SE Asian Nations, in order to secure future food and resources for the masses, and if they can get those Nations to foot 50% or so of the cost incurred in doing that, then fair play to them for playing the game against short sighted countries and their leaders.

China only has one objective, and that is the domination of the SE Asian all Nations. They're nearly everywhere already. Close neighbours first, though.

Not necessarily 'close (nearby) neighbors first.' They're spreading wherever they can, including Africa and Pacific islands. Some well-placed money to the people in charge, and a lot can be accomplished, from Chinese perspective. Granted, it's an age-old dynamic, but from the perspective of the UN General Assembly, even little principalities like Tonga have the same number of votes (1) as the US or Russia. China has been effectively cajoling (along with promises and well-placed payments) the smallest countries ww, to back its expansion plans. Most notably, it keeps Taiwan from being recognized as the country it is, and keeps Tibet occupied, with very little interference from the rest of the world. Such UN/political maneuverings will also come in to play, when push comes to shove in the S.China Sea.

As for SE Asia, some countries are already in China's pocket (like Laos, Thailand, Cambodia), and the others will be in the fold bye and bye. Resistance is near-futile, and China has a lot of patience. It's like a Sumo wrestling match between Twiggy and a 400 pounder. The heavier player just needs to lean, while smiling and offering money, ...and lean some more.

[squarethecircle]

I figure it's just in an expansion phase now, and as other countries come into their own the influence will sway. Who knows, maybe it will take a big war but I kind of doubt it. Usually asymmetrical warfare works. I bet in the next half-century we'll see her come into full power and the dragon shows its true colours, then it's force and fire will be lost, and she'll shrink back down on her knees, where she's best.

Edited January 15, 2015 by squarethecircle

[Jimbo2014]

Old chinese proverb, Shake hands with a Chinese, count your fingers afterwards

[Tomtomtom69]

The Chinese did a fantastic job building the Tibet railway..........but hundreds (~1600) of their workers, mainly military personnel, died on the project.

They have very poor safety standards.....massive road tolls......shoddy and cheap electrical and other consumer goods....faking everything possible almost.....but with the promises of "cheap" money....which often means rewards for the select few....is in part, the reason they are able get a foothold in developing nations.

One strange thing about accidents in China is that unlike in Thailand where the police might come and create a diversion around a scene of an accident just moments after it occurred, in China they frustratingly block whole roads for hours until they've done their investigations and cleared all evidence. This creates backlogs of motorists for dozens of km. I wish they would stop that crap and just block off the relevant blocked sections of road - I have already spent countless hours sitting in cars or buses waiting for roads to be cleared just because of one accident.

I was going to also say when I read "massive road tolls" that the other meaning of that phrase refers to the very high charges to use Chinese expressways. This seems to keep away most drivers from undertaking long distances by car. Hence if you were to drive from say Kunming to Dali, Baoshan, south to Jinghong or east to Nanning for example, traffic is extremely light compared to any similar Thai highway because you'll be charged something like US$200 equivalent to drive between say Shanghai and Beijing, for example.