In remote Thai villages, legacy of China's lost army endures

[exona]

Did anyone read the article? These guys were the last fighting units of the KMT army. After 49 they ran into Burma. They got into the opium trade as you do and the CIA picked them up and sent them on trips into the mainland. The Chicoms didn't appreciate this too much and a deal was made for them all to go to Taiwan. They didn't! They stayed up north and kept running the smack business, everyone was happy. Because of the general incompetence of the RTA they used these guys to fight the local reds, most openly in Phitasnaloc in the early 80's and on going border skirmishes. This earned them their green cards. Why'd they want to identify as Thai? Do you? They were stateless narco traffickers who earned their freedom. Beautiful village by the way, with amazing approach road.

[Artisi]

So piss off back to China then, numbskulls.

I truly wish I could understand what appears here to be an offensive comment in what is now a multicultural world... really I do.

Care to elaborate with some rational intelligent, non-threatening comment?

Seems there is a complete lack of intelligence there so don't hold out any hope of a rational comment.

[Artisi]

Anyone ever watched American Gangster?

We wont ask what this guomintang army was growing up in them there hills, since of course, they were the good guys right?

Not good guys, just people looking for a society free from regulation and authoritarian laws. And good for them

History lesson: They were widely known to be in the pay of, and under the control of the CIA who were using them to try & overthrow Mao. There were 10s of thousands of them from Lao to Burma, and many were killed in skirmishes with the Chinese. Although some (few) were repatriated to Taiwan most were eventually abandoned by the CIA after Nixon got pally with the Chinese and the political wind direction changed. Read Air America or Ravens. You will love them. Learn things you never knew. I am on my third read in the last 15 years.

They were also extensively used by the Thai government in the fight against the Thai communists, because the Thai military were pretty well useless - -- seems nothing much changes.

[Mudcrab]

Anyone ever watched American Gangster?

We wont ask what this guomintang army was growing up in them there hills, since of course, they were the good guys right?

Not good guys, just people looking for a society free from regulation and authoritarian laws. And good for them

History lesson: They were widely known to be in the pay of, and under the control of the CIA who were using them to try & overthrow Mao. There were 10s of thousands of them from Lao to Burma, and many were killed in skirmishes with the Chinese. Although some (few) were repatriated to Taiwan most were eventually abandoned by the CIA after Nixon got pally with the Chinese and the political wind direction changed. Read Air America or Ravens. You will love them. Learn things you never knew. I am on my third read in the last 15 years.

You've read it three times...in fifteen years...and the ending is different every time??

That.s not normal.

[Nuddy]

Actually the Air America and the Ravens are really fascinating books. I don't think I could read them three times but worth a second browse.

The involvement of the Chinese in Thailand as in the very early days the Chinese floated down the river to this place and is too a fascinating story.

They brought with them Chinese daughters and gave these as concubines to the Royalty. (Mentioned with Respect). Some one earlier mentioned breeding us out , well that correct and thats what they did here in Thailand (Siam) 100's of years ago and constantly since.

As one would expect some favours would have been received.

And now there are Chinese type Temples all around Thailand.

In towns where like where I live the Chinese Thai own all the important shops and the majority of the land.

This could well have been because they were smarter than the average bear, but more like that they profited from their elders drug trade.

So it seems to be declaring the Chinese part of ones Thai self would mean saying I got my dosh from my fathers or his fathers drug money.

Not really special when u think about it.

[ericthai]

So piss off back to China then, numbskulls.

WOW.. So are you living in Thailand and consider yourself Thai?

If you don't consider yourself Thai then maybe you should piss off back to where you came from too..

who's the numbskull now??

Edited January 15, 2015 by ericthai

[Thai at Heart]

Anyone ever watched American Gangster?

We wont ask what this guomintang army was growing up in them there hills, since of course, they were the good guys right?

Not good guys, just people looking for a society free from regulation and authoritarian laws. And good for them

They lost a war against the communists. Yeah right, the Kuomintang, land of the free and low taxes, a al Fox News. They weren't searching for a country free from anything, they were just looking for anywhere.

In the meantime they busied themselves producing ton after ton of the good white stuff, in glorious isolation, on the way getting plenty of assistance from some of the more select Thais.

[Tocquinio]

Interesting stuff

[The Deerhunter]

Anyone ever watched American Gangster?

We wont ask what this guomintang army was growing up in them there hills, since of course, they were the good guys right?

Not good guys, just people looking for a society free from regulation and authoritarian laws. And good for them

History lesson: They were widely known to be in the pay of, and under the control of the CIA who were using them to try & overthrow Mao. There were 10s of thousands of them from Lao to Burma, and many were killed in skirmishes with the Chinese. Although some (few) were repatriated to Taiwan most were eventually abandoned by the CIA after Nixon got pally with the Chinese and the political wind direction changed. Read Air America or Ravens. You will love them. Learn things you never knew. I am on my third read in the last 15 years.

You've read it three times...in fifteen years...and the ending is different every time??

That.s not normal.

Don't know why you think the endings change. Re-reading both books (Multiples are not usually referred to as "it") refreshes my memory of details and they are a damned interesting read about this interesting part of the world, linking up in my mind with other things I have read or docos watched between times. As I have my own copies of both books, unsurprisingly the endings do not change. People who read either of them for the first time will learn things they never knew. Hope this clarifies things for the easily confused.

Edited January 16, 2015 by The Deerhunter

[In Search of Space]

Went to one of these villages in chiang rai in 1990 on a bike ride, quite amazing

[quidnunc]

"The Chinese are not stupid. :-)"

If they were so smart they would have a country they wanted to stay in.

So what does that say about all the expats in Thailand and elsewhere? I guess either you don't number yourself among them or you're no brighter than you say these Chinese are.

Edited January 16, 2015 by quidnunc

[quidnunc]

"When I lived in Thailand I worked for a Thai Chinese man. He was married to a Malaysian Chinese woman. Our biggest client was a Singaporean Chinese man who was married to an Indonesian Chinese woman. Their daughter lived in the States and was married to an American Chinese man and their son lived in Canada and was married to a Canadian Hong Kong Chinese woman.[/size]

The Chinese are not stupid. :-)"

If they were so smart they would have a country they wanted to stay in.

"The Jews of the East"? oops...

Do us all a favour and leave out the bigotry.

Not my words, and relevant to the discussion. "The Jews of the East" written 1914 by King Rama VI, who was also a driving force in forcing Chinese to adopt Thai names to prove they were ready to be fully integrated. Despite many Thai nationality laws, it seems to have failed.....

Failed? Really? The overwhelming majority of Thai Chinese don't speak Chinese, and lead a Thai lifestyle. They are generally more successful in business and the profession, but that has little to do with integration.

[quidnunc]

I can see a Chinese-Thai, on that came from China and became a Thai citizen.

Vice versa for a Thai moving to China and becoming a citizen of China.

But I know many Thai people, born and raised in Thailand as were their parents and

still they refer to themselves as Chinese. Is "Chinese" a race?

The Thai that go to American and become citizens are Americans, there is I'm sure

a Thai-American community, but being an American is not a race thing.

How can someone be Thai and be Chinese?

Different cultures & religions behave in their own way when they make a home in a new country. Many races & cultures just adapt & "fit in" to their new home but certain groups remain totally immersed in their own culture for generations, regardless of where they are. A catholic in Mexico would think of himself as a Mexican first and a catholic second. A Mexican citizen with Chinese, Jew or Muslim connections would usually have a self image where being Mexican came second. A Dutch 3rd generation migrant to Australia or New Zealand would be "of Dutch extraction" as a secondary self view after being Kiwi or Aussie. Italians are a bit more clanny than most Europeans, as are migrated Yugoslavians & Greeks. There are 4 groups that come easily to mind that take it to extremes with language, religion, even living in the sale suburbs: Jews, Muslims, Chinese & the Zoroastrians who fled Iran after the Muslim take-over & settled in India & Zanzibar. Freddy Mercury's family were typical examples of the latter group. These 4 groups of people, more than many other cultures are "good" examples of those who only superficially mix.

Walk into any big shop in Thailand, particularly general hardware stores in rural Thailand and notice the Buddha figures & images on the wall & wall shrine. The number of Chinese Thai here who obviously are very involved in their own culture is staggering. These people very rarely marry outside their own subgroup (as reported by an earlier poster) and the obvious fact with all these Thai citizens is that they are Chinese first and Thai second. They would probably all "think of themselves" as such and many would not think twice before replying as they think.

I hope this is not seen as racist but merely as a way to identify how people see themselves in their chosen country of residence ( or that their great great grandparents chose.)

I won't speak her for the other cultures addressed here, but as for Jews, that's just plain anti-semitic nonsense. Wherever Jews are allowed to settle and arent' discrminated against, they speak the local language, eat the local foods (except for the minority who keep kosher), consume the local media, and play the local sports. It may be that they tend to be more succesful economically, but I fail to see how that proves lack of integration in the local culture.

[seedy]

ethnic Thais (read: lazy, dark, poor, manual workers)

And what - pray tell - do you call yourself - EuroTrash ?

[keebone]

I had a very interesting meeting with a son of a Kuomintang settler up by Mae Salong, taught me how to take tea the traditional Chinese way and spoke at length about the history of his Father's people coming to Thailand. One thing I felt slightly disturbing was he lamented that he was "not beautiful like his Father" because his Mother was from one of the hill tribes up there, couldn't help but wonder if this had been drilled into him by his Father or other non mixed Chinese. Most guys with any balls would staunchly defend their Mother looks whatever the reality.

[CMHomeboy78]

History lesson: They were widely known to be in the pay of, and under the control of the CIA who were using them to try & overthrow Mao. There were 10s of thousands of them from Lao to Burma, and many were killed in skirmishes with the Chinese. Although some (few) were repatriated to Taiwan most were eventually abandoned by the CIA after Nixon got pally with the Chinese and the political wind direction changed. Read Air America or Ravens. You will love them. Learn things you never knew. I am on my third read in the last 15 years.

They were also extensively used by the Thai government in the fight against the Thai communists, because the Thai military were pretty well useless - -- seems nothing much changes.

Your statement that "...the Thai military were pretty well useless..." in the fight against Communists is untrue and shouldn't go unchallenged.

When I first came here in the late 1970s large areas of the North and Northeast were controlled by Communist insurgents. The border regions of Laos and Cambodia were no-go areas. They were just outside Nan, and as close to Chiang Mai as Samoeng.

Thai Army units and BPP rangers throughout the 1980s fought courageously against this threat until the Communists were decisively defeated in the early '90s.

Your uninformed comment is an insult to the thousands of Thai soldiers - including two from my wife's family - who lost their lives in the fighting.

[bangon04]

"The Jews of the East"? oops...

Do us all a favour and leave out the bigotry.

Not my words, and relevant to the discussion. "The Jews of the East" written 1914 by King Rama VI, who was also a driving force in forcing Chinese to adopt Thai names to prove they were ready to be fully integrated. Despite many Thai nationality laws, it seems to have failed.....

Failed? Really? The overwhelming majority of Thai Chinese don't speak Chinese, and lead a Thai lifestyle. They are generally more successful in business and the profession, but that has little to do with integration.

Maybe, but this article is about a substantial minority who apparently ignored the Thai nationality laws, including a "crackdown" in 1939 which lasted until 1956.

"I may have a Thai ID, but Im Chinese, said Liang Zhengde, 47, a manager for his familys fruit farms. My family is Chinese, and no matter where we go, were still Chinese."

Edited January 16, 2015 by bangon04

[quidnunc]

Maybe, but this article is about a substantial minority who apparently ignored the Thai nationality laws, including a "crackdown" in 1939 which lasted until 1956.

"I may have a Thai ID, but Im Chinese, said Liang Zhengde, 47, a manager for his familys fruit farms. My family is Chinese, and no matter where we go, were still Chinese."

Nice try. But you're the one who indulged in generaliing this to all Thai Chinese. Here's the quote you cited:: "The Jews of the East" written 1914 by King Rama VI, who was also a driving force in forcing Chinese to adopt Thai names to prove they were ready to be fully integrated. Despite many Thai nationality laws, it seems to have failed.....

The King's quote was not about the Kuomintang Chinese or those living in isolated villages in the north. There was no Kuomintang back then. Yet you chose to quote it. And as for these village Thai chinese being a "substantial minority", do you have any hard numbers to back that up. I would bet that the vast majority of Thai Chinese have nothing to do with the Kuomintang or those northern ethnic villages. Or what exactly do you mean by "substantial"?

[Artisi]

History lesson: They were widely known to be in the pay of, and under the control of the CIA who were using them to try & overthrow Mao. There were 10s of thousands of them from Lao to Burma, and many were killed in skirmishes with the Chinese. Although some (few) were repatriated to Taiwan most were eventually abandoned by the CIA after Nixon got pally with the Chinese and the political wind direction changed. Read Air America or Ravens. You will love them. Learn things you never knew. I am on my third read in the last 15 years.

They were also extensively used by the Thai government in the fight against the Thai communists, because the Thai military were pretty well useless - -- seems nothing much changes.

Your statement that "...the Thai military were pretty well useless..." in the fight against Communists is untrue and shouldn't go unchallenged.

When I first came here in the late 1970s large areas of the North and Northeast were controlled by Communist insurgents. The border regions of Laos and Cambodia were no-go areas. They were just outside Nan, and as close to Chiang Mai as Samoeng.

Thai Army units and BPP rangers throughout the 1980s fought courageously against this threat until the Communists were decisively defeated in the early '90s.

Your uninformed comment is an insult to the thousands of Thai soldiers - including two from my wife's family - who lost their lives in the fighting.

Without setting out to re-write history or to go over known facts, the Thai military didn't decisively defeat the communists, by the time the military finally got on top there were only a few handful's of active communist fighters left. The "defeat" as you like to call it, came from improved economic and social reforms and other factors aimed at bringing the problem to an end together with input from the very top.

Members of my wife's family also lost their lives in the conflict as did many other people from both sides including the Kuomintang recruited by the Thai's in an effort to bolster the militaries expertise.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Artisi

[CMHomeboy78]

They were also extensively used by the Thai government in the fight against the Thai communists, because the Thai military were pretty well useless - -- seems nothing much changes.

Your statement that "...the Thai military were pretty well useless..." in the fight against Communists is untrue and shouldn't go unchallenged.

When I first came here in the late 1970s large areas of the North and Northeast were controlled by Communist insurgents. The border regions of Laos and Cambodia were no-go areas. They were just outside Nan, and as close to Chiang Mai as Samoeng.

Thai Army units and BPP rangers throughout the 1980s fought courageously against this threat until the Communists were decisively defeated in the early '90s.

Your uninformed comment is an insult to the thousands of Thai soldiers - including two from my wife's family - who lost their lives in the fighting.

Without setting out to re-write history or to go over known facts, the Thai military didn't decisively defeat the communists, by the time the military finally got on top there were only a few handful's of active communist fighters left. The "defeat" as you like to call it, came from improved economic and social reforms and other factors aimed at bringing the problem to an end together with input from the very top.

Members of my wife's family also lost their lives in the conflict as did many other people from both sides including the Kuomintang recruited by the Thai's in an effort to bolster the militaries expertise.

You're wrong, the Thai military did indeed decisively defeat the Communist insurgency of the 1970s and 80s.

Economic factors contributed, but the role played by the Thai Army, the BPP, and the Village Defense Volunteers was the most important and shouldn't be minimized.

[ultimate weapon]

I had a very interesting meeting with a son of a Kuomintang settler up by Mae Salong, taught me how to take tea the traditional Chinese way and spoke at length about the history of his Father's people coming to Thailand. One thing I felt slightly disturbing was he lamented that he was "not beautiful like his Father" because his Mother was from one of the hill tribes up there, couldn't help but wonder if this had been drilled into him by his Father or other non mixed Chinese. Most guys with any balls would staunchly defend their Mother looks whatever the reality.

If you care to notice there's something known as stormfront where farang need to be 100% yup not even 90% before they can be a part of and they need to be 100% pro faranG and anti all races even jews. Please come back again when there's a chinese equvalent of stormfront.

[squarethecircle]

"The Chinese are not stupid. :-)"

If they were so smart they would have a country they wanted to stay in.

So what does that say about all the expats in Thailand and elsewhere? I guess either you don't number yourself among them or you're no brighter than you say these Chinese are.

Well that is true, but I don't go around claiming people of my race are superior. Also I do my best to LEARN from other countries I go to, adapt to their (good) ways, try to bring the best of what I have, etc.

This may be irrelevant to the KMT in N Thailand but it is strange to see people talk about how brilliant the Chinese of SE Asia are when the fact remains they do not want to live in the country they came from. A bit like nationalistic Mexicans breaking the law to enter the US.

[Suriya4]

"When I lived in Thailand I worked for a Thai Chinese man. He was married to a Malaysian Chinese woman. Our biggest client was a Singaporean Chinese man who was married to an Indonesian Chinese woman. Their daughter lived in the States and was married to an American Chinese man and their son lived in Canada and was married to a Canadian Hong Kong Chinese woman.

The Chinese are not stupid. :-)"

If they were so smart they would have a country they wanted to stay in.

The Chinese is also known as "Jews of the East".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1514916.stm

[tonbridgebrit]

So piss off back to China then, numbskulls.

This might appear to be a ridiculous comment to make, but hold on, let's think about it.

Who are the Chinese in Thailand ? Okay, people like Thaksin, Abhisit, Porntip (that's the forensics woman with the crazy hair) and most of the rich people in Thailand are Chinese. Anybody who looks the same as the people in your local Chinese take-away are Chinese. Yes, your local Chinese take-away in England, Australia, Canada, America, etc.

And basically, the bulk of Thailand's richest two or five per cent, are actually Chinese in Thailand. Next time you see a BMW or Mercedes Benz car in Bangkok, you will notice the driver will likely look like a Chinese person. Now then, if all the Chinese in Thailand were to go home to China, well, this will remove Thailand's rich people, and the political class.

Chinese tourists turn up in Thailand for a holiday, and then go home. Thailand's own Chinese (yes, these people are all from China, they're not indigenous to Thailand) practically own Thailand. We need to see more equality in Thai society, is painfull surgery the way forward ?

[ultimate weapon]

"The Chinese are not stupid. :-)"[/size]

If they were so smart they would have a country they wanted to stay in.

So what does that say about all the expats in Thailand and elsewhere? I guess either you don't number yourself among them or you're no brighter than you say these Chinese are.

Well that is true, but I don't go around claiming people of my race are superior. Also I do my best to LEARN from other countries I go to, adapt to their (good) ways, try to bring the best of what I have, etc.

This may be irrelevant to the KMT in N Thailand but it is strange to see people talk about how brilliant the Chinese of SE Asia are when the fact remains they do not want to live in the country they came from. A bit like nationalistic Mexicans breaking the law to enter the US.

Seriously speaking are you daft? There are still more chinese people in china compared to the rest of the world even though millions have migrated and given birth to chinese or mixed chinese throughout SEA and beyond.

That's like saying hey those damn english, irish ppl from the UK hate their own country so much they migrated to the USA or maybe australia. Isn't that the case? WHy are there dutch type of people in africa? Isn't holland a really great country to be in? Why move to africa?

People migrate all the time but yet when farang do it from england to say brazil or the US or to asia etc oh it's fine. Chinese do it oh something is wrong with them.

[ultimate weapon]

So piss off back to China then, numbskulls.

This might appear to be a ridiculous comment to make, but hold on, let's think about it.

Who are the Chinese in Thailand ? Okay, people like Thaksin, Abhisit, Porntip (that's the forensics woman with the crazy hair) and most of the rich people in Thailand are Chinese. Anybody who looks the same as the people in your local Chinese take-away are Chinese. Yes, your local Chinese take-away in England, Australia, Canada, America, etc.

And basically, the bulk of Thailand's richest two or five per cent, are actually Chinese in Thailand. Next time you see a BMW or Mercedes Benz car in Bangkok, you will notice the driver will likely look like a Chinese person. Now then, if all the Chinese in Thailand were to go home to China, well, this will remove Thailand's rich people, and the political class.

Chinese tourists turn up in Thailand for a holiday, and then go home. Thailand's own Chinese (yes, these people are all from China, they're not indigenous to Thailand) practically own Thailand. We need to see more equality in Thai society, is painfull surgery the way forward ?

Does this apply to the farang in australia and the US and canada? The chinese in thailand are fully integrated into thai society and due to their hard working nature, ability to do business etc they become rich in a foreign land not because they did it the farang way which is to capture and enslave the natives and steal their land and then turn around and chastize others acting all self righteous.

Seems like you have some sort of envy there. Last time i checked people like porntip might be chinese or maybe part chinese but she has a thai name speaks thai and probably not chinese and do you know not every east asian person is chinese. That would imply that koreans, mongolians, japanese, khazastanians etc are chinese.

[chooka]

I can see a Chinese-Thai, on that came from China and became a Thai citizen.

Vice versa for a Thai moving to China and becoming a citizen of China.

But I know many Thai people, born and raised in Thailand as were their parents and

still they refer to themselves as Chinese. Is "Chinese" a race?

The Thai that go to American and become citizens are Americans, there is I'm sure

a Thai-American community, but being an American is not a race thing.

How can someone be Thai and be Chinese?

Well, in the UK people of Pakistani origin are known as British Pakistanis. Go to an England vs Pakistan cricket test match and there will be third generation Pakistanis draped in the flag of their ancestral homeland. Other south Asians are described as British Asian. The UK media refers to all citizens as Britons although most of the true Britons, not the Anglo Saxon incomers or the Scots who arrived from Ireland, are the Welsh. So, Thai citizens of Chinese ancestry are referred to as Chinese Thai. Ethnicity and religion, two of the main causes of conflict for centuries.

My grandfather is Chinese but my parents were born in Australia and are mixed race so I guess I am Chinese Australian even tho I look European.

[seedy]

Saw a documentary a few years back.

Thru DNA testing world wide they traced back every race to Africa. Charted migration patterns to every corner of the globe.

So we all have ancestors in common.

[chooka]

So piss off back to China then, numbskulls.

This might appear to be a ridiculous comment to make, but hold on, let's think about it.

Who are the Chinese in Thailand ? Okay, people like Thaksin, Abhisit, Porntip (that's the forensics woman with the crazy hair) and most of the rich people in Thailand are Chinese. Anybody who looks the same as the people in your local Chinese take-away are Chinese. Yes, your local Chinese take-away in England, Australia, Canada, America, etc.

And basically, the bulk of Thailand's richest two or five per cent, are actually Chinese in Thailand. Next time you see a BMW or Mercedes Benz car in Bangkok, you will notice the driver will likely look like a Chinese person. Now then, if all the Chinese in Thailand were to go home to China, well, this will remove Thailand's rich people, and the political class.

Chinese tourists turn up in Thailand for a holiday, and then go home. Thailand's own Chinese (yes, these people are all from China, they're not indigenous to Thailand) practically own Thailand. We need to see more equality in Thai society, is painfull surgery the way forward ?

Does this apply to the farang in australia and the US and canada? The chinese in thailand are fully integrated into thai society and due to their hard working nature, ability to do business etc they become rich in a foreign land not because they did it the farang way which is to capture and enslave the natives and steal their land and then turn around and chastize others acting all self righteous.

Seems like you have some sort of envy there. Last time i checked people like porntip might be chinese or maybe part chinese but she has a thai name speaks thai and probably not chinese and do you know not every east asian person is chinese. That would imply that koreans, mongolians, japanese, khazastanians etc are chinese.

No farangs in Australia

[BirdsandBooze]

I can see a Chinese-Thai, on that came from China and became a Thai citizen.

Vice versa for a Thai moving to China and becoming a citizen of China.

But I know many Thai people, born and raised in Thailand as were their parents and

still they refer to themselves as Chinese. Is "Chinese" a race?

The Thai that go to American and become citizens are Americans, there is I'm sure

a Thai-American community, but being an American is not a race thing.

How can someone be Thai and be Chinese?

Well, in the UK people of Pakistani origin are known as British Pakistanis. Go to an England vs Pakistan cricket test match and there will be third generation Pakistanis draped in the flag of their ancestral homeland. Other south Asians are described as British Asian. The UK media refers to all citizens as Britons although most of the true Britons, not the Anglo Saxon incomers or the Scots who arrived from Ireland, are the Welsh. So, Thai citizens of Chinese ancestry are referred to as Chinese Thai. Ethnicity and religion, two of the main causes of conflict for centuries.

My grandfather is Chinese but my parents were born in Australia and are mixed race so I guess I am Chinese Australian even tho I look European.

You would need both of your parents to be of Chinese descent for you to be described as Chinese Australian. If you also have European ancestry I think the description would be Eurasian Australian, although if I shared your heritage I'd take the liberty to describe myself as exotic . My own ancestors were Huguenots though I'll be darned if I'm going to describe myself as French Edited January 17, 2015 by BirdsandBooze