New Rimping (Hang Dong) and Credit Card issue

[bangmai]

credit/debit is quicker than cash in the US, especially with the new generation of people that can't count money. I've seen the "smart" phone payments take forever here, and have actually walked out, of course there were three other employees standing there with their thumbs in their noses...but nothing beats a trip into 7-11 for 1 or 2 items and getting behind someone, who is getting their hot dogs chopped into 2 cm sections and then microwaved. What were they thinking?

Edited February 2, 2015 by bangmai

[JulieM]

I would not dream of using my credit card over the counter in Thailand. The risk of fraud is high. If a hotel asks for my card at check-in to guarantee payment, I ask how much cash would you like as a guarantee and hand over the money and wait for a receipt.

I've used mine hundreds of times have never experienced fraud. So how high are those odds, darkside?

[Diplomatico]

It exactly pertains to the situation in the OP as it relates to the consumer protection that is offered by the credit card company to its customers. OP is worried his card will be used fraudulently....if CMU Language Institute had charged for services not provided, that's also fraud.

Credit cards are almost always preferable to debit cards because of the fraud protection. If someone cleans out your bank account because they obtained your debit card or the number, good luck getting that money back from the bank. If you lose cash, good luck getting it back. Credit card companies generally do not charge customers for fraudulent use of their credit cards. (I would never use a debit card to make an online purchase especially.)

No one really cares if you need or want a credit card (or even if you understand why you'd want to have one) and since you don't, you don't really have much credibility on the issue.

Then pay by cash in stores as I explained in my first post. Problem solved.

Your first post also "explained" that you pay for online purchases with a debit card. Bad idea.

Perhaps you should limit your posts to your usual lament regarding how it's difficult for you to find $20 whores. At least then we know you have some experience in the mechanics of the transaction.

The rest of us live in the current century.

[northernjohn]

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I would not dream of using my credit card over the counter in Thailand. The risk of fraud is high. If a hotel asks for my card at check-in to guarantee payment, I ask how much cash would you like as a guarantee and hand over the money and wait for a receipt.

I've used mine hundreds of times have never experienced fraud. So how high are those odds, darkside?

Good question.

The only time mine was ever compromised was once and I caused it myself. Immidiatly canceled the card and had a new one in three days.

[Cholmondley]

I would not dream of using my credit card over the counter in Thailand. The risk of fraud is high. If a hotel asks for my card at check-in to guarantee payment, I ask how much cash would you like as a guarantee and hand over the money and wait for a receipt.

I've used mine hundreds of times have never experienced fraud. So how high are those odds, darkside?

I don't know what the odds are, but a few years back I used a credit card to pay a hotel bill following a stay in a resort in southern Thailand.

Within hours, my credit card number was being used in Sri Lanka. It was easy to prove to my bank that the these transactions were not authorised by me, and my account was reimbursed.

Most people are honest, but it only takes one rogue employee.

[evenstevens]

I would not dream of using my credit card over the counter in Thailand. The risk of fraud is high. If a hotel asks for my card at check-in to guarantee payment, I ask how much cash would you like as a guarantee and hand over the money and wait for a receipt.

I've used mine hundreds of times have never experienced fraud. So how high are those odds, darkside?

whilst i agree with your post J.M. that the odds are high

darkside has a very valid post also

many years ago my c/card was tampered with at a gas station, fortunately the c/c company picked up the malpractice,immediately closed my c/c and notified me of the tampering and replaced my card in due course

ever since that incident have placed due diligience where i use my c/c, then J.M. the odds certainly comes in your favour

a very nice morning to all

[NancyL]

The only real "fraudulent" use of one of my cards was in the U.S. back in the dark ages of slider receipt machines and paper receipts. Someone working at a convenience storing selling gasoline took one of my receipts and used the numbers to charge a bill on one of those phone sex lines. Made for an interesting entry on my credit card statement. Which the credit card company immediately reversed.

Here in Thailand, the "fraudulent" charges I've disputed and won have been more along the lines of disputes with the merchants -- like the CMU Language Institute or an Nok Air claiming it will take 8 - 10 weeks to process a refund when they accepted an on-line reservation for a route they'd already cancelled or a store not understanding that they've double billed for a purchase even when it's been pointed out to everyone in their management chain.

Edited February 3, 2015 by NancyL

[hml367]

There is a difference between a merchant issuing a refund and your financial insitution reversing a charge.

There is also a difference between a fraudulent charge and a disputed charge.\

All of these make a difference in how these situations can be taken care of.

Not trying to be pedantic, as happens often on the forums, but there seem to be different scenarios being lumped into one thing in this thread.

Edited February 3, 2015 by hml367

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Firstly , I don`t have or want a credit card, for what purpose? I guess the most users are those who are living on strict budgets and need to pay upfront first on their credit cards because they don`t have the cash at hand. Otherwise their first choice would be debit cards not credit cards.

Beetlejuice, I guess you didn't read my post about how the only people who received refunds with the CMU Language Institute debacle were those who paid with foreign-issued credit cards. Anyone who paid for their full year of study with cash (or a Thai-issued credit or debit card) simply lost their money when CMU pulled the plug.

For this reason alone, it makes sense to use a foreign-issued credit card when asked to pay for goods or services that will be delivered in the future or for something that is a subscription-type service. You have recourse in case the merchant doesn't deliver as promised.

That does not pertain to using a credit card for purchases in supermarkets and general stores, as in the case of the OP. Your situation is completely unrelated.

BJ, you specifically asked!

"I don't have or want a credit card, for what purpose?"

Then someone kindly takes the time to explain why some people want a credit card and all we get is more huffing and puffing.

You aren't here to exchange information, are you?

I'm not a huge fan of credit cards either (it doesn't seem to hard for companies like Visa to make them a lot more secure) but I DO listen to arguments.

Edited February 3, 2015 by WinnieTheKhwai

[NancyL]

There is a difference between a merchant issuing a refund and your financial insitution reversing a charge.

There is also a difference between a fraudulent charge and a disputed charge.\

All of these make a difference in how these situations can be taken care of.

Not trying to be pedantic, as happens often on the forums, but there seem to be different scenarios being lumped into one thing in this thread.

No you're not being pendantic hml367, there is a difference between fraud and a disputed charge. But, it's my understanding that with the Thai-issued credit/debit cards, the card holder doesn't have protection in either situation like they do with cards issued in the west.

Actually, I think the way that the western financial institutions handle fraudulent and disputed charges is similar -- at least that has been my (limited) experience. As a card-holder, I bring the charge to their attention, they reverse the charge, contact the merchant and if the merchant can't provide appropriate documentation after a suitable period the reversal stands. If a merchant is the subject of enough complaints, then their merchant privileges are withdrawn by the card company. This was the way it worked when Hubby and I had a small retail business and accepted credit/debit cards. Merchants work hard to make sure they aren't the subject of complaints by customers to the credit card company -- at least it was that way in the U.S, because if they had a certain number of complaints a year, then their fees increased.

Edited February 3, 2015 by NancyL

[hml367]

NancyL,

The main point in this thread seems to be a refund versus a disputed charge.

It could be that fraudulent charges and disputed charges are handled similarly, but I don't think they are the same thing.

Edited February 3, 2015 by hml367

[hml367]

Beetlejuice, I guess you didn't read my post about how the only people who received refunds with the CMU Language Institute debacle were those who paid with foreign-issued credit cards. Anyone who paid for their full year of study with cash (or a Thai-issued credit or debit card) simply lost their money when CMU pulled the plug.

For this reason alone, it makes sense to use a foreign-issued credit card when asked to pay for goods or services that will be delivered in the future or for something that is a subscription-type service. You have recourse in case the merchant doesn't deliver as promised.

NancyL, if you are asserting that a credit card issued by a Thai bank does not have purchase protection, this is from the Terms and Conditions for a credit card from a Thai bank. I am not questioning whether people lost their money or not, but Thai issued credit cards could certainly have similar protection as you are referring to from a foreign issued credit card:

(b The Company shall not deprive the Cardholder of right to cancel the purchase of goods or request for the service within the 45 days as from the date of purchase order or request for service or within a period of 30 days from the due date for delivery of goods or service. In case the due date for the delivery of goods and services is prescribed in writing, if the Cardholder can prove that he/she has not made such purchase order or request the service, or that he/she has not obtained the goods within the prescribed time, or the goods or service is defective or does not otherwise satisfy the purpose for which it was provided, the Company shall suspend the collection of payment from the Cardholder. If such transaction has been made domestically and the collection of payment has been made, the company shall make a refund to the Cardholder within 30 days as from the date notification of the Cardholder. If such transaction has been made abroad, the Company shall make a refund to the Cardholder within 60 days as from the date of the notification of the Cardholder.

I readily admit it would be more difficult for a foreigner to accomplish this task with a Thai issued credit card.

EDIT: Attach Bangkok Bank's Cardholder Dispute Letter

CreditCardholdersDisputeLetter.pdf

Edited February 3, 2015 by hml367

[scottishjohn]

They are still 50 years behind when it comes to card matters. Back in December i had a double charge on my card at Tesco on 108 although the girl insisted that she had only put it through once. I went to customer services who were completely 'out of it' and knew nothing so i asked for a Manager. After 35 minutes waiting around a Female Manager turned up looking annoyed and telling the Mrs she was 'extremely busy'. After ten more minutes of her running around and being very vexed in her approach to other staff she finally agreed that i had been charged twice and said it would take 45 days for me to receive a refund ! I let her know calmly what i thought of the service both at till and management level and then left the store.

Upon return home i sent my card issuer an email explaining what had happened and they gave me an immediate credit for the double charge. I also sent Tesco Thailand an email with a copy to Tesco UK. I had an apologetic reply from England but no response from Thailand (nothing abnormal there then !).

They don't have a clue what they are doing with card transactions and even in the few places like Tops and Home-Pro where they actually use 'chip&pin' they still expect you to sign pieces of paper which is not required.

Of course we will get all those Thai apologists coming on saying it's a cash society and so on but the fact is that Thailand needs to try and remove itself from the late 19th century and move on !

But the fact is, it hasn`t, and Thailand has still to embrace the concept of living in a cashless society, so therefore those living here have a learn to adapt accordingly.

Firstly , I don`t have or want a credit card, for what purpose? I guess the most users are those who are living on strict budgets and need to pay upfront first on their credit cards because they don`t have the cash at hand. Otherwise their first choice would be debit cards not credit cards.

I have debit cards pertaining to all my foreign bank accounts that I keep locked in my safe, or should say; in case of emergency, break glass. Had them for 3 years now never used them yet. I have 1 debit card for only 1 of my Thai savings bank accounts. Again mostly in a case of an emergency or for making purchases online. I only keep 10000 baht balance on my card, so if the worse should happen that`s all I have to lose.

It is extremely easy to draw cash using a Thai bank debit or ATM card from the always available ATM machines located outside the large stores. Just draw the cash and pay by cash for purchases made inside the stores.

The problem is that there are those who plonk themselves in Thailand still expecting that facilities and services is going to be just like things were at home, and then become flummoxed, bewildered and frustrated when it hits them that Thailand hasn`t quite caught up yet and find this difficult to except.

The solutions are simple; learn to adapt and change your methods of doing business and making transactions here. But the main problems for some, is that old habits die hard, the long and suffering moaners and whingers.

You said ; "I have debit cards pertaining to all my foreign bank accounts that I keep locked in my safe, or should say; in case of emergency, break glass. Had them for 3 years now never used them yet"

Quick word(s) of warning!

If your foreign cards include UK debit cards please be aware that many expire after 3 yrs and that if the UK bank a/c has had no transactions in the last 2 years it will be come "dormant" and will not be accessible without speaking to your UK Bank.

Please also note, as I have said on a number of occasions, that UK and US rules and usage of Debit & Credit cards are very different.

[NancyL]

Beetlejuice, I guess you didn't read my post about how the only people who received refunds with the CMU Language Institute debacle were those who paid with foreign-issued credit cards. Anyone who paid for their full year of study with cash (or a Thai-issued credit or debit card) simply lost their money when CMU pulled the plug.

For this reason alone, it makes sense to use a foreign-issued credit card when asked to pay for goods or services that will be delivered in the future or for something that is a subscription-type service. You have recourse in case the merchant doesn't deliver as promised.

NancyL, if you are asserting that a credit card issued by a Thai bank does not have purchase protection, this is from the Terms and Conditions for a credit card from a Thai bank. I am not questioning whether people lost their money or not, but Thai issued credit cards could certainly have similar protection as you are referring to from a foreign issued credit card:

(b The Company shall not deprive the Cardholder of right to cancel the purchase of goods or request for the service within the 45 days as from the date of purchase order or request for service or within a period of 30 days from the due date for delivery of goods or service. In case the due date for the delivery of goods and services is prescribed in writing, if the Cardholder can prove that he/she has not made such purchase order or request the service, or that he/she has not obtained the goods within the prescribed time, or the goods or service is defective or does not otherwise satisfy the purpose for which it was provided, the Company shall suspend the collection of payment from the Cardholder. If such transaction has been made domestically and the collection of payment has been made, the company shall make a refund to the Cardholder within 30 days as from the date notification of the Cardholder. If such transaction has been made abroad, the Company shall make a refund to the Cardholder within 60 days as from the date of the notification of the Cardholder.

I readily admit it would be more difficult for a foreigner to accomplish this task with a Thai issued credit card.

EDIT: Attach Bangkok Bank's Cardholder Dispute Letter

I think the problem with the CMU Language Institute was in people asking for a "partial refund" i.e. if they'd had 3 months of their 12 month course, they wanted a 75% refund. The Thai credit cards used the language cited above to say that the purchase occurred more than 45 days prior. Our U.S. issued-credit card has similar language in its boilerplate, but they agreed with my assertion that since only 25% of the "product" was delivered, then a 75% refund was in order.

[hml367]

NancyL,

You asserted that Thai issued credit cards do not have purchase protection: quote from post number 42; "No you're not being pendantic hml367, there is a difference between fraud and a disputed charge. But, it's my understanding that with the Thai-issued credit/debit cards, the card holder doesn't have protection in either situation like they do with cards issued in the west.").

I am not referring to any particular merchant. I think that at least some Thai issued credit cards DO have purchase protection.

In case you are helping someone that is moving here or just moved here you might not state that any card issued in Thailand does not have purchase protection. This could change from time to time.

Edited February 4, 2015 by hml367

[NancyL]

Good point hml367 that at least some Thai-issued credit cards to claim to offer purchase protection.

It would be good to learn if anyone was successful in filing a claim with their Thai-issued card.

Meanwhile, the language of their protection does cause one to wonder about Thai merchants who claim it takes 6 - 8 weeks (or longer) to process a refund. Maybe they're just trying to run out the clock on the purchase protection offered by the Thai credit card companies.

[hml367]

Good point hml367 that at least some Thai-issued credit cards to claim to offer purchase protection.

It would be good to learn if anyone was successful in filing a claim with their Thai-issued card.

Meanwhile, the language of their protection does cause one to wonder about Thai merchants who claim it takes 6 - 8 weeks (or longer) to process a refund. Maybe they're just trying to run out the clock on the purchase protection offered by the Thai credit card companies.

This is really getting off the original topic (Rimping Hang Dong), but since you bring it up. You indicated that you were a merchant in the US. You should then be aware of the difference between a refund and a chargeback. There is a BIG difference in the time involved.

At least for Visa I know the operating rules, regulations, and standards for merchants are available online.

My point, as I said, is to give correct information to someone if you have influence over their decisions. In the US, I believe giving financial advice requires a license or something. It did when I was working there, anyway.

[NancyL]

hml367 -- I fail to see why someone would need a license to give financial advise to suggest that someone not abandon their foreign-issued credit cards in favor of Thai issued ones. There could be a place for both in someone's wallet.

I know I've been pleased that I continue to use a foreign-issued card and I know of people with Thai-issued cards who have found themselves without similar protections. I'm just speaking from personal observation of people in an identical situation with the only difference being Thai-issued cards vs. foreign issued cards (i.e. the CMU Language Institute debacle)

I think you're being rather harsh in suggesting I'm dispensing financial advise without a license as though I'm enticing people to invest millions in a dodgy scheme of personal benefit to myself.

[hml367]

hml367 -- I fail to see why someone would need a license to give financial advise to suggest that someone not abandon their foreign-issued credit cards in favor of Thai issued ones. There could be a place for both in someone's wallet.

I know I've been pleased that I continue to use a foreign-issued card and I know of people with Thai-issued cards who have found themselves without similar protections. I'm just speaking from personal observation of people in an identical situation with the only difference being Thai-issued cards vs. foreign issued cards (i.e. the CMU Language Institute debacle)

I think you're being rather harsh in suggesting I'm dispensing financial advise without a license as though I'm enticing people to invest millions in a dodgy scheme of personal benefit to myself.

You often take things as a personal attack when people give examples, as you often give examples in your posts. We are not in the US, and I was giving an example from my work experience in the US. It's your own doing if you think I was accusing you of anything. Giving financial advice in the US when I was working was determined in court. As you must be aware, a person can sue anyone for anything in the US.

The fact is you asserted that people do not have payment protection on Thai issued credit cards - I pointed out that there are at least some Thai issued cards that do have purchase protection. I have also seen words to the effect that a particular card issuing institution in Thailand was terminating their purchase protection. Yet there still seem to be places that do offer it.

Make what you will of all of this.. you were wrong saying that Thai issued cards do not have purchase protection.