Xircal Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 The British system is the best one. Seize the vehicle: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-31683483 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Why would giving the police power to sanction offenders more effectively be a joke. If you break the law there are sanctions, I would only disagree with a system where you are sanctioned when you have not broken the law. The naivety of this post is beyond belief or response - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) The British system is the best one. Seize the vehicle: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-31683483 The UK system is extremely effective; it is scientific, logical and well enforced - However I don't particularly see the example you gave illustrating that. It looks to me that it was a foreign car and the driver may have had a foreign licence......i think it is in reality just a bit of journalists claptrap - gloating upon the fate of someone who had=s a "flashy" car. In any car, a driver without a licence is not permitted to drive - however you usually have 5 days to produce your licence (has that changed?? - I imagine computer checking is more thorough now but....) - so if it hasn't changed one has to suspect that something else was going on for the police to confiscate the vehicle. Edited March 2, 2015 by cumgranosalum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol Jadzia Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Found this when looking for information on the Thai Highway Code http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0140_5.pdf The UK system is now that Police Cars and road side cameras can check if a vehicle is legal and that the legal owner has a licence automatically. Untaxed vehicles can and are taken away and crushed. You can pay your fixed penalty fines online or over the phone. There is talk of moving to online courts as well. https://www.avonandsomerset.police.uk/advice/vehicles-roads/motoring-offences/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) Found this when looking for information on the Thai Highway Code http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0140_5.pdf The UK system is now that Police Cars and road side cameras can check if a vehicle is legal and that the legal owner has a licence automatically. Untaxed vehicles can and are taken away and crushed. You can pay your fixed penalty fines online or over the phone. There is talk of moving to online courts as well. https://www.avonandsomerset.police.uk/advice/vehicles-roads/motoring-offences/ "check if a vehicle is legal and that the legal owner has a licence automatically.: Few problems with that, Road tax in UK is now with the PERSON, not the car. A camera would have to instantly identify the driver to ascertain whether he is allowed to drive or not - this even with modern technology is not easy.....and I'm pretty sure not available to the police. So aa a rule, you have to be stopped by police and show an ID - in UK you don't have to carry ID. can you imagine the Thai police doing this?? The original post however is about the improvement of traffic in Bangkok - well that sort of stuff is primaily handled by the traffic wardens first and then a special police division - which of course is non-existent in Thailand Edited March 2, 2015 by cumgranosalum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol Jadzia Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 "check if a vehicle is legal and that the legal owner has a licence automatically.: Few problems with that, Road tax in UK is now with the PERSON, not the car. A camera would have to instantly identify the driver to ascertain whether he is allowed to drive or not - this even with modern technology is not easy.....and I'm pretty sure not available to the police. So aa a rule, you have to be stopped by police and show an ID - in UK you don't have to carry ID. can you imagine the Thai police doing this?? The original post however is about the improvement of traffic in Bangkok - well that sort of stuff is primaily handled by the traffic wardens first and then a special police division - which of course is non-existent in Thailand Sorry have to correct you there. Road Tax is still attached to the car. Not the person. I have a Car that's taxed and a Motorcycle that's Taxed. You are right that we don't carry ID. But that does not stop a car being pursued for speeding via the post. The registered owner is expected to pay. Unless they state who the Driver was. This system can be abused but the way they have changed the law now makes it really hard for someone not to be held responsible. If you sell a car or bike and don't transfer the ownership correctly then you can still be held responsible for the actions of the new driver. Legal responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol Jadzia Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31653760 A service allowing motorists in England and Wales charged with summary motoring offences to enter a plea online is being launched by the government. People charged with a minor motoring offence such as speeding or not having insurance will be able to enter a plea 24-hours-a-day via a secure website. The gradual roll-out of the "Make A Plea" scheme from March follows a successful pilot in Greater Manchester. The government says it saves time and money for the criminal justice system. Last year saw 4.5m minor motoring offences processed through the courts. The government is also considering whether the scheme could be used for other low-level offences. Edit - This is the UK Edited March 2, 2015 by Carol Jadzia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) "check if a vehicle is legal and that the legal owner has a licence automatically.: Few problems with that, Road tax in UK is now with the PERSON, not the car. A camera would have to instantly identify the driver to ascertain whether he is allowed to drive or not - this even with modern technology is not easy.....and I'm pretty sure not available to the police. So aa a rule, you have to be stopped by police and show an ID - in UK you don't have to carry ID. can you imagine the Thai police doing this?? The original post however is about the improvement of traffic in Bangkok - well that sort of stuff is primaily handled by the traffic wardens first and then a special police division - which of course is non-existent in Thailand Sorry have to correct you there. Road Tax is still attached to the car. Not the person. I have a Car that's taxed and a Motorcycle that's Taxed. You are right that we don't carry ID. But that does not stop a car being pursued for speeding via the post. The registered owner is expected to pay. Unless they state who the Driver was. This system can be abused but the way they have changed the law now makes it really hard for someone not to be held responsible. If you sell a car or bike and don't transfer the ownership correctly then you can still be held responsible for the actions of the new driver. Legal responsibility. You might be in for a surprise when you return to UK - I too have a car there. No the registered owner is not "expected" to pay anything. the person who commits the offence is liable. The owner is obliged to tell the authorities who was driving the car at the time - if they fail to do so they will be charged with a separate offence, that of FAILING TO SUPPLY THE INFORMATION. This will result in a similar or higher fine, but not an endorsement. This is used by hundreds of companies who have fleets of company cars - for example - if one of their drivers is done for speeding - if the photo doesn't ID him and no-one "grasses" then the driver gets to keep his licence in tact and the company pays out a fine but keeps the employee who continues to earn them money. As you say - speeding tickets are normally delivered by post - which means that motorists in uk seldom have their cars immediately impounded. These and parking tickets etc are sent to the registered owner's address - so if you haven't changed it you will fall foul of the law above. You are not held responsible in UK for crimes you haven't committed. As you seem unaware that the tax disc no longer exists....... As with most things concerning government/tax etc. in the UK the catchphrase is “digital by default” The tax disc is now no longer - it is replaced by an electronic system. From the Daily Telegraph... “motorists will now have to register their car online to pay Vehicle Excise Duty, otherwise known as road tax. This can be done via Direct Debit on the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) website, on the phone, or at a Post Office branch. Those who don't register for the tax, will be caught out by number plate recognition cameras which track each vehicle on the road.” Therefore the registered keeper of the car will be liable...... “Anyone who buys a used car will no longer benefit if there are months left on the tax disc, as the vehicle tax will no longer be transferred with the car. This means buyers will have to renew their tax disc straight away, or risk being caught out on the road in an untaxed car.” the TAX stays with the vendor (who MUST inform DVLC) - NOT THE CAR - who then gets a rebate for the remaining tax months. NOW - Here’s an example of driver being responsible - “A driver, not registered owner, can be issued a non-endorsable fixed penalty for driving an untaxed car. An owner can be fined £80 for using an untaxed vehicle (one not registered off the road) and can be charged any back tax." ...and here’s another titbit while you’re at it... “The paper element of the driving licence, which accompanies the credit card size photo-card, is also due to be axed in January 2015.” Edited March 2, 2015 by cumgranosalum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol Jadzia Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 You might be in for a surprise when you return to UK - I too have a car there. Sorry have to correct you there. Road Tax is still attached to the car. Not the person. I have a Car that's taxed and a Motorcycle that's Taxed. You are right that we don't carry ID. But that does not stop a car being pursued for speeding via the post. The registered owner is expected to pay. Unless they state who the Driver was. This system can be abused but the way they have changed the law now makes it really hard for someone not to be held responsible. If you sell a car or bike and don't transfer the ownership correctly then you can still be held responsible for the actions of the new driver. Legal responsibility. No the registered owner is not "expected" to pay anything. the person who commits the offence is liable. The owner is obliged to tell the authorities who was driving the car at the time - if they fail to do so they will be charged with a separate offence, that of FAILING TO SUPPLY THE INFORMATION. This will result in a similar or higher fine, but not an endorsement. This is used by hundreds of companies who have fleets of company cars - for example - if one of their drivers is done for speeding - if the photo doesn't ID him and no-one "grasses" then the driver gets to keep his licence in tact and the company pays out a fine but keeps the employee who continues to earn them money. As you say - speeding tickets are normally delivered by post - which means that motorists in uk seldom have their cars immediately impounded. These and parking tickets etc are sent to the registered owner's address - so if you haven't changed it you will fall foul of the law above. You are not held responsible in UK for crimes you haven't committed. A you seem unaware that the tax disc no longer exists....... As with most things concerning government/tax etc. in the UK the catchphrase is “digital by default” The tax disc is now no longer - it is replaced by an electronic system. From the Daily Telegraph... “motorists will now have to register their car online to pay Vehicle Excise Duty, otherwise known as road tax. This can be done via Direct Debit on the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) website, on the phone, or at a Post Office branch. Those who don't register for the tax, will be caught out by number plate recognition cameras which track each vehicle on the road.” Therefore the registered keeper of the car will be liable...... “Anyone who buys a used car will no longer benefit if there are months left on the tax disc, as the vehicle tax will no longer be transferred with the car. This means buyers will have to renew their tax disc straight away, or risk being caught out on the road in an untaxed car.” the TAX stays with the vendor (who MUST inform DVLC) - NOT THE CAR - who then gets a rebate for the remaining tax months. NOW - Here’s an example of driver being responsible - “A driver, not registered owner, can be issued a non-endorsable fixed penalty for driving an untaxed car. An owner can be fined £80 for using an untaxed vehicle (one not registered off the road) and can be charged any back tax." ...and here’s another titbit while you’re at it... “The paper element of the driving licence, which accompanies the credit card size photo-card, is also due to be axed in January 2015.” I live in the UK. I do agree with most of what you say only a couple of points. It is still the vehicles that are the focus of the tax. In cities there are special tow vehicles that turn up and remove untaxed vehicles from the road. We have specialist vehicles covered in cameras that drive around looking for illegal vehicles. If they find one then it will be clamped and towed away. You may know of companies that have managed to get someone off on a technicality but it is far from the norm. .Gov don't like not getting it's tax. We have a car and two motorcycles that are taxed and on the road. Another two motorcycles are SORN. I don't have to tax the two that are sorn. But I would get nicked if either was used or parked n a public highway. They have changed where they point the finger, but not what the tax is for. The licence was supposed to be the plastic id size one from the start. Only the wonderful Police and government computer systems did not work as planned. Hence the paper part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) "In cities there are special tow vehicles that turn up and remove untaxed vehicles from the road. We have specialist vehicles covered in cameras that drive around looking for illegal vehicles. If they find one then it will be clamped and towed away." This is the point I'm making about the original post - Thailand is simply not equipped to enforce any of this new policy effectively as they have neither the infrastructure or the specialist dept to carry it out. as for the rest you seem to be clutching at straws for the sake of saving face. It would seem that you don't really understand the law as regards to motoring in the UK. Edited March 3, 2015 by cumgranosalum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol Jadzia Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 as for the rest you seem to be clutching at straws for the sake of saving face. It would seem that you don't really understand the law as regards to motoring in the UK. That would be rather unfortunate as I am paid to teach it and have done for many years. Seems the British DVSA is happy with what I say? They issued me with an instructor trainer licence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) as for the rest you seem to be clutching at straws for the sake of saving face. It would seem that you don't really understand the law as regards to motoring in the UK. That would be rather unfortunate as I am paid to teach it and have done for many years. Seems the British DVSA is happy with what I say? They issued me with an instructor trainer licence. the evidence would suggest you aren't very good at it. furthermore you also don't seem to be able to get to grips with the original topic and how the situation in UK pertains to it. Edited March 3, 2015 by cumgranosalum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol Jadzia Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 the evidence would suggest you aren't very good at it. furthermore you also don't seem to be able to get to grips with the original topic and how the situation in UK pertains to it. Well I have been employed as a center manager/ Chief Instructor Trainer for 5 of the largest training schools in England over the past 30 years. They all seem to think I did ok. And yes this is still in relation to the original topic. Thailand has a history for taking on things from the UK. I understand the Thai Highway Code is based on UK one for example. Currently their are major initiatives underway to improve road safety in Thailand. Money is pouring into the country to address the issue. I think it is the obvious next step that in order to raise capitol and start addressing the accident issues, impounding vehicles is an easy place to start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 the evidence would suggest you aren't very good at it. furthermore you also don't seem to be able to get to grips with the original topic and how the situation in UK pertains to it. Well I have been employed as a center manager/ Chief Instructor Trainer for 5 of the largest training schools in England over the past 30 years. They all seem to think I did ok. And yes this is still in relation to the original topic. Thailand has a history for taking on things from the UK. I understand the Thai Highway Code is based on UK one for example. Currently their are major initiatives underway to improve road safety in Thailand. Money is pouring into the country to address the issue. I think it is the obvious next step that in order to raise capitol and start addressing the accident issues, impounding vehicles is an easy place to start. You can wave around bits of paper and claim experience all you like but the evidence is there in your posts in black and white. Remember it’s not the messenger; it’s the message that counts. You show no sign that you have any understanding of the relationship between “owner/registered keeper/driver and the law in UK (You didn’t seem to know about the new UK tax system either) and most of all you show no sign whatsoever of how the system in the UK demonstrates quite clearly how the measures talked about in the OP have no chance of working given the current road infrastructure in Bangkok and Thailand and the state of the Thai police. “I think it is the obvious next step that in order to raise capitol and start addressing the accident issues, impounding vehicles is an easy place to start.” Do you seriously think that? - If you really understood the problems of traffic and road safety in Thailand, you’d be aware of the “5 Es” and how unless they are ALL tackled together there is little or no chance of getting to grips with the problems. You seem to think that impounding vehicles will generate huge sums of money? - I take it you think they can legally sell the vehicles and that this will be greater than the cost of impounding them, finding ownership, shipping etc??? - well I have to suggest that you are kidding yourself. If you think that raising money this way in Thailand is the solution, then I would also suggest you need to brush up on the way things are done here, especially with police or government bodies involved. The truth is Thailand needs a HOLISTIC approach to the roads and TRILLIONS spent - not the money raised from a few secondhand cars. I don’t know what you were up to in your “office” but it seems you learned little about traffic, traffic engineering, the law or the problems of Thailand’s roads. May I suggest you take some time out and read up on the situation here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol Jadzia Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I don't know what's going to happen in Thailand. That is not my area of expertise. All I look at is what I know and can see unfolding in front of me. Certainly not going to continue to argue about it. We will see. How this plays out. No I don't suggest anything. Just going by the evidence from elsewhere and what I can see is currently happening. I think there are going to be many changes because the accident rates are going to keep climbing even though the money is pouring in. Just a matter of time before more and more initiatives are put in place to try and address the issues, this is an easy target thats all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I don't know what's going to happen in Thailand. That is not my area of expertise. All I look at is what I know and can see unfolding in front of me. Certainly not going to continue to argue about it. We will see. How this plays out. No I don't suggest anything. Just going by the evidence from elsewhere and what I can see is currently happening. I think there are going to be many changes because the accident rates are going to keep climbing even though the money is pouring in. Just a matter of time before more and more initiatives are put in place to try and address the issues, this is an easy target thats all. "....the accident rates are going to keep climbing even though the money is pouring in" - really? where do you get that idea from? The "accident rates" are a whole series of stats - the most common being deaths per 100k. These are actually over a decade or more reducing. but stats regarding road safety are not only hugely variable but massively difficult to interpret. I think it is safe to say that road accidents (RTCs to use the correct term) are too high in Thailand as is the death rate - but most people just make wild baseless assumptions about what is going on. As for "pouring in money" - well with Thailand's record on corruption that is just a joke. their are several initiatives going and a major ASEAN one has been running for several years now - al make dramatic claims - all conflict with each other and none achieves anything - I don't see any change unless a massive policy review results in a ground-up re-appraisal of the whole situation. I won't go over the 5 Es, but unless they are addressed any move to improve the situation will fail. You just have to look at the amount of care, propaganga and science the UK has invested since the opening of the first motorways to realise the enormity of the task ahead for successive Thai governments. as for your comment "Just going by the evidence from elsewhere and what I can see is currently happening" - I have no idea what you mean by that...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 I don't know what's going to happen in Thailand. That is not my area of expertise. All I look at is what I know and can see unfolding in front of me. Certainly not going to continue to argue about it. We will see. How this plays out. No I don't suggest anything. Just going by the evidence from elsewhere and what I can see is currently happening. I think there are going to be many changes because the accident rates are going to keep climbing even though the money is pouring in. Just a matter of time before more and more initiatives are put in place to try and address the issues, this is an easy target thats all. "No conspiracy theory, you need to get informed, unfortunately it seems that most people rely on local sources for their information which of course is a catch 22 situation " As that is essentially what the topic was about, I can't see why you bothered posting in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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