Envoy rejects US paper's attack on Thai government

tbthailand · March 5, 2015

"I only mentioned the previous MoE as you wondered what made the 'junta' better at education."

And you have provided no reason to believe the junta is better qualified to educate the population about democracy. It seems obvious it is not.

"You still have a funny idea about education if you see nothing wrong with a MoE quoting a criminal fugitive who happens to be the brother of the PM, the brother who orders 'his' cabinet around from afar'."

You are very careful to avoid the message, you simply imply the messenger corrupts all who apply the message. Does that apply in other areas? Roman Polanski is a criminal fugitive film director who plead guilty to charges of plying a 13 year old girl with drugs and alcohol then raping and sodomizing her. Do you think anyone who watches movies such as "Rosmary's Baby", "Chinatown", "The Pianist", and many others supports pedophilia?

"Just to show that 'elected' governments in Thailand do not have a good name in education. It would seem the current government cannot do worse and probably better."

The elected governments did improve access to education in much of Thailand, and didn't engage in historical white-washing and propaganda to the degree that the junta is doing so. It would seem a deeply superstitious coup leader with limited education is already doing much worse in education.

"As for your description of PM Prayuth the same goes for many Thai including 'real' politicians and those from Thai-Chinese families."

As a percentage of population the number of Thais who have lead a coup and who's education is limited to military schools is small, so I assume you mean many Thais are deeply superstitious, to the degree of allowing superstition to guide their lives. No doubt true, but none of these people should be allowed to influence the education system in Thailand in any way.

"Next the article. It show a bias towards the Shinawatras. It mentions "hundreds of political prisoners AND Ms. Yingluck's criminal persecution". Only that already suggest that Ms. Yingluck is 'obviously' innocent, apart from the fact that Ms. Yingluck isn't criminally persecuted, she's only indicted and justly so."

Finally, something on-topic. I don't read a bias towards the Shinawatras in the editorial, I read a bias towards elected governments and against military rule. The Washington Post is not alone in being concerned about political prisoners in Thailand http://news.asiaone.com/news/asian-opinions/international-community-sceptical-thai-governments-reform-claims, and few people believe Pisan Manawapat's claim that there are no political prisoners in Thailand. That was the only substantive statement the Thai envoy made against the original Washington Post editorial, and it has no credibility.

What qualifies as criminal persecution is debatable, but the fact that elected leaders get prosecuted in Thailand and coup leaders don't is not debatable. Outside of Thailand that is seen as blatantly anti-democratic.

The bias of the WP editorial is in positioning the Shinawatras as victims which has nothing to do with a democratic state. Also the 'hundreds of political prisoners' AND "criminal charging of Ms. Yingluck" together suggests these are comparable aspects of the junta. It would seem those hundreds are more like tens and most in 'self-exile'. same like Snowden who seeks guarantees for a fair process before returning to the USA.

That you and others think the statements of k. Pisan have no credibility is nice, but unsubstanciated.

Furthermore even under a real democracy Ms. Yingluck could be criminally charged, and most likely would ( assuming she ever would have got the chance to get her 'self-financing' scheme started).

So, with the Prayuth government depending on the Ministry of Education bureaucrats just like the previous governments, what can go wrong. At least they don't quote a criminal fugitive's view as being the philosophy to base their policy on. Mind you, who knows if instead of Pol. Lieut-Col it had been Army Lieut-Col ... ... ).

BTW your comparison with people going to a Polanski movie seems a bit obsessed. It's not as if Polanski's past was used as philosophy to explain why people should follow his ideas.

The bias of the WP editorial

the issue here is not any bias at the Washington Post, ...

thedivezone · March 5, 2015

Why is democracy ALWAYS assumed to be the BEST form of government....?

Germany 1933 - a democracy that allowed Hitler to come to power. Millions died.

USA 2003 - a democracy that allowed George W. Bush to start a war over false claims. Hundreds of thousands died.

Your knowledge of democracy and history is lacking.

I know enough history to be aware that Thailand has never started a war that cost the lives of millions of civilians.

It's possible over a million Iraqis died because of the Bush Administration's mismanagement of their effort to form a "beachhead for Democracy in the heart of the Middle East."

Unfortunately you don't know enough about history to be aware that Hitler didn't rise to power by a democratic process and your equating Nazi Germany with a democracy is beyond laughable. I'd keep my history knowledge well hidden away if i was you, Tom Joad.

billphillips · March 5, 2015

Why is democracy ALWAYS assumed to be the BEST form of government....?

Germany 1933 - a democracy that allowed Hitler to come to power. Millions died.

USA 2003 - a democracy that allowed George W. Bush to start a war over false claims. Hundreds of thousands died.

Why would anyone consider a "dictators rule of gun" superior to a democratic government?

TomJoad · March 5, 2015

Why is democracy ALWAYS assumed to be the BEST form of government....?

Germany 1933 - a democracy that allowed Hitler to come to power. Millions died.

USA 2003 - a democracy that allowed George W. Bush to start a war over false claims. Hundreds of thousands died.

Your knowledge of democracy and history is lacking.

I know enough history to be aware that Thailand has never started a war that cost the lives of millions of civilians.

It's possible over a million Iraqis died because of the Bush Administration's mismanagement of their effort to form a "beachhead for Democracy in the heart of the Middle East."

Unfortunately you don't know enough about history to be aware that Hitler didn't rise to power by a democratic process and your equating Nazi Germany with a democracy is beyond laughable. I'd keep my history knowledge well hidden away if i was you, Tom Joad.

Don't twist the words of another poster. It's a giveaway that you're sophomoric.

In the original post I stated that Hitler came to power in, what was, a democracy. I DID NOT say he rose to power through "a democratic process" as you put it, or that Nazi Germany was a democracy. The Weimar Republic prior to it was a democracy. Hitler was appointed by elected officials.

From Wikipedia:

"The Nazi party lost 35 seats in the November 1932 election, but remained the Reichstag's largest party, with 196 seats (33.09%). The Social Democrats (SPD) won 121 seats (20.43%) and the Communists (KPD) won 100 (16.86%)."

"Hindenburg appointed Hitler as Chancellor on January 30, 1933, in a coalition arrangement between the Nazis and the Nationalist-Conservatives. Papen was to serve as Vice-Chancellor in a majority conservative Cabinet – still falsely believing that he could "tame" Hitler."

WORLD WAR II was started by someone who rose to power in a democracy. Deal with it.

Edited March 5, 2015 by TomJoad

KarenBravo · March 5, 2015

Why is democracy ALWAYS assumed to be the BEST form of government....?

Germany 1933 - a democracy that allowed Hitler to come to power. Millions died.

USA 2003 - a democracy that allowed George W. Bush to start a war over false claims. Hundreds of thousands died.

Hitler was never elected. The Myth That Will Not Die. He was appointed.

Oh dear......you really need to read a proper history book.

In 1932 The Nazi party polled the most votes of any other party, but, not enough to make a majority. They got 11.7 million votes. The second party, the Social Democrats got 7.2 million votes.

In 1933 there was another election. The same two parties (the biggest two) polled respectively, 17.2 million versus 7.1 million.

With the left-wing running rampant, other right-wing parties formed a coalition with the Nazis and took over Germany by democratic (at the time) means.

Sorry to go off topic, but, I hate it when someone quotes incorrect history.

Edited March 5, 2015 by KarenBravo

heybruce · March 5, 2015

"I only mentioned the previous MoE as you wondered what made the 'junta' better at education."

And you have provided no reason to believe the junta is better qualified to educate the population about democracy. It seems obvious it is not.

"You still have a funny idea about education if you see nothing wrong with a MoE quoting a criminal fugitive who happens to be the brother of the PM, the brother who orders 'his' cabinet around from afar'."

You are very careful to avoid the message, you simply imply the messenger corrupts all who apply the message. Does that apply in other areas? Roman Polanski is a criminal fugitive film director who plead guilty to charges of plying a 13 year old girl with drugs and alcohol then raping and sodomizing her. Do you think anyone who watches movies such as "Rosmary's Baby", "Chinatown", "The Pianist", and many others supports pedophilia?

"Just to show that 'elected' governments in Thailand do not have a good name in education. It would seem the current government cannot do worse and probably better."

The elected governments did improve access to education in much of Thailand, and didn't engage in historical white-washing and propaganda to the degree that the junta is doing so. It would seem a deeply superstitious coup leader with limited education is already doing much worse in education.

"As for your description of PM Prayuth the same goes for many Thai including 'real' politicians and those from Thai-Chinese families."

As a percentage of population the number of Thais who have lead a coup and who's education is limited to military schools is small, so I assume you mean many Thais are deeply superstitious, to the degree of allowing superstition to guide their lives. No doubt true, but none of these people should be allowed to influence the education system in Thailand in any way.

"Next the article. It show a bias towards the Shinawatras. It mentions "hundreds of political prisoners AND Ms. Yingluck's criminal persecution". Only that already suggest that Ms. Yingluck is 'obviously' innocent, apart from the fact that Ms. Yingluck isn't criminally persecuted, she's only indicted and justly so."

Finally, something on-topic. I don't read a bias towards the Shinawatras in the editorial, I read a bias towards elected governments and against military rule. The Washington Post is not alone in being concerned about political prisoners in Thailand http://news.asiaone.com/news/asian-opinions/international-community-sceptical-thai-governments-reform-claims, and few people believe Pisan Manawapat's claim that there are no political prisoners in Thailand. That was the only substantive statement the Thai envoy made against the original Washington Post editorial, and it has no credibility.

What qualifies as criminal persecution is debatable, but the fact that elected leaders get prosecuted in Thailand and coup leaders don't is not debatable. Outside of Thailand that is seen as blatantly anti-democratic.

The bias of the WP editorial is in positioning the Shinawatras as victims which has nothing to do with a democratic state. Also the 'hundreds of political prisoners' AND "criminal charging of Ms. Yingluck" together suggests these are comparable aspects of the junta. It would seem those hundreds are more like tens and most in 'self-exile'. same like Snowden who seeks guarantees for a fair process before returning to the USA.

That you and others think the statements of k. Pisan have no credibility is nice, but unsubstanciated.

Furthermore even under a real democracy Ms. Yingluck could be criminally charged, and most likely would ( assuming she ever would have got the chance to get her 'self-financing' scheme started).

So, with the Prayuth government depending on the Ministry of Education bureaucrats just like the previous governments, what can go wrong. At least they don't quote a criminal fugitive's view as being the philosophy to base their policy on. Mind you, who knows if instead of Pol. Lieut-Col it had been Army Lieut-Col ... ... ).

BTW your comparison with people going to a Polanski movie seems a bit obsessed. It's not as if Polanski's past was used as philosophy to explain why people should follow his ideas.

"The bias of the WP editorial is in positioning the Shinawatras as victims which has nothing to do with a democratic state."

Ok, I can't prevent you from seeing bias where you want to see it, but I and others don't view the editorial that way.

"That you and others think the statements of k. Pisan have no credibility is nice, but unsubstanciated."

Are you getting a bit desperate? You're inventing things I didn't post. I posted:

"...few people believe Pisan Manawapat's claim that there are no political prisoners in Thailand. That was the only substantive statement the Thai envoy made against the original Washington Post editorial, and it has no credibility."

In other words, his statement that there are no political prisoners in Thailand has no credibility. You seem to agree, since you stated that "those hundreds are more like tens"--you are disputing the count but not fact that there are political prisoners in Thailand.

"So, with the Prayuth government depending on the Ministry of Education bureaucrats just like the previous governments, what can go wrong."

Well let's see, we have the white-washing of Thaksin's name out of the history books http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1413811048&typecate=06&section=. And I suspect it's only a matter of time before the "Twelve values", which only mention democracy briefly and in a qualified sense, are mandatory for young people to learn http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1418379319&section=11&typecate=06. My biggest fear is what a man of his mindset can do as leader of a 'super board' on education reform. Feng shui, holy water to ward off curses, fear of a democracy trap--what could possibly go right?

"At least they don't quote a criminal fugitive's view as being the philosophy to base their policy on."

Once again, the decades old quote that has you so worried is:

"Police Lieutenant Colonel Dr. Thaksin Shinawatra has said about education that “Education will lead to the building of people’s vigour. Vigorous and knowledgeable people are powerful capital to fight with poverty.” “Emphases must be on distribution of benefits with equity, and on regards of people with difficulties, in order to provide quality education for everyone.” “Education is an important key, a starting element that is necessary in making poverty become past.”" http://www.sathukit....u-policy-en.pdf

Basically he said "Education helps people get out of poverty." Do you disagree with the message? Or do you think the entire educational system of Thailand was somehow corrupted because of this benign quote from Thaksin's days in the police? Do you think stating what many consider to be obvious, that education helps people escape poverty, is worse than rewriting school history books to remove an inconvenient political leader?

Edited March 5, 2015 by heybruce

rubl · March 5, 2015

The bias of the WP editorial is in positioning the Shinawatras as victims which has nothing to do with a democratic state. Also the 'hundreds of political prisoners' AND "criminal charging of Ms. Yingluck" together suggests these are comparable aspects of the junta. It would seem those hundreds are more like tens and most in 'self-exile'. same like Snowden who seeks guarantees for a fair process before returning to the USA.

That you and others think the statements of k. Pisan have no credibility is nice, but unsubstanciated.

Furthermore even under a real democracy Ms. Yingluck could be criminally charged, and most likely would ( assuming she ever would have got the chance to get her 'self-financing' scheme started).

So, with the Prayuth government depending on the Ministry of Education bureaucrats just like the previous governments, what can go wrong. At least they don't quote a criminal fugitive's view as being the philosophy to base their policy on. Mind you, who knows if instead of Pol. Lieut-Col it had been Army Lieut-Col ... ... ).

BTW your comparison with people going to a Polanski movie seems a bit obsessed. It's not as if Polanski's past was used as philosophy to explain why people should follow his ideas.

"The bias of the WP editorial is in positioning the Shinawatras as victims which has nothing to do with a democratic state."

Ok, I can't prevent you from seeing bias where you want to see it, but I and others don't view the editorial that way.

"That you and others think the statements of k. Pisan have no credibility is nice, but unsubstanciated."

Are you getting a bit desperate? You're inventing things I didn't post. I posted:

"...few people believe Pisan Manawapat's claim that there are no political prisoners in Thailand. That was the only substantive statement the Thai envoy made against the original Washington Post editorial, and it has no credibility."

In other words, his statement that there are no political prisoners in Thailand has no credibility. You seem to agree, since you stated that "those hundreds are more like tens"--you are disputing the count but not fact that there are political prisoners in Thailand.

"So, with the Prayuth government depending on the Ministry of Education bureaucrats just like the previous governments, what can go wrong."

Well let's see, we have the white-washing of Thaksin's name out of the history books http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1413811048&typecate=06&section=. And I suspect it's only a matter of time before the "Twelve values", which only mention democracy briefly and in a qualified sense, are mandatory for young people to learn http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1418379319&section=11&typecate=06. My biggest fear is what a man of his mindset can do as leader of a 'super board' on education reform. Feng shui, holy water to ward off curses, fear of a democracy trap--what could possibly go right?

"At least they don't quote a criminal fugitive's view as being the philosophy to base their policy on."

Once again, the decades old quote that has you so worried is:

"Police Lieutenant Colonel Dr. Thaksin Shinawatra has said about education that “Education will lead to the building of people’s vigour. Vigorous and knowledgeable people are powerful capital to fight with poverty.” “Emphases must be on distribution of benefits with equity, and on regards of people with difficulties, in order to provide quality education for everyone.” “Education is an important key, a starting element that is necessary in making poverty become past.”" http://www.sathukit....u-policy-en.pdf

Basically he said "Education helps people get out of poverty." Do you disagree with the message? Or do you think the entire educational system of Thailand was somehow corrupted because of this benign quote from Thaksin's days in the police? Do you think stating what many consider to be obvious, that education helps people escape poverty, is worse than rewriting school history books to remove an inconvenient political leader?

credibility: "few people believe Pisan Manawapat's claim that there are no political prisoners in Thailand. That was the only substantive statement the Thai envoy made against the original Washington Post editorial, and it has no credibility."

So, you and others state the 'no credibility' but fail to substantiate. Therefore I can only come to the conclusion you state your opinion only and that has limited value.

As for the quote you still don't get it it seems. It's not the contents, it the very fact that the Minister of Education uses the musings of a criminal fugitive as philosophy to base his policy on. It doesn't matter that the criminal fugitive happens to be Thaksin, immaterial. It's doesn't matter what is quoted, immaterial. It's purely the fact that the words of a criminal fugitive are used as philosophy to base a countries education policy on.

The current MoE scrapped said criminal fugitive from the books. A mistake I think. One needs examples on how the mighty fall because of selfishness.

heybruce · March 5, 2015

The bias of the WP editorial is in positioning the Shinawatras as victims which has nothing to do with a democratic state. Also the 'hundreds of political prisoners' AND "criminal charging of Ms. Yingluck" together suggests these are comparable aspects of the junta. It would seem those hundreds are more like tens and most in 'self-exile'. same like Snowden who seeks guarantees for a fair process before returning to the USA.

That you and others think the statements of k. Pisan have no credibility is nice, but unsubstanciated.

Furthermore even under a real democracy Ms. Yingluck could be criminally charged, and most likely would ( assuming she ever would have got the chance to get her 'self-financing' scheme started).

So, with the Prayuth government depending on the Ministry of Education bureaucrats just like the previous governments, what can go wrong. At least they don't quote a criminal fugitive's view as being the philosophy to base their policy on. Mind you, who knows if instead of Pol. Lieut-Col it had been Army Lieut-Col ... ... ).

BTW your comparison with people going to a Polanski movie seems a bit obsessed. It's not as if Polanski's past was used as philosophy to explain why people should follow his ideas.

"The bias of the WP editorial is in positioning the Shinawatras as victims which has nothing to do with a democratic state."

Ok, I can't prevent you from seeing bias where you want to see it, but I and others don't view the editorial that way.

"That you and others think the statements of k. Pisan have no credibility is nice, but unsubstanciated."

Are you getting a bit desperate? You're inventing things I didn't post. I posted:

"...few people believe Pisan Manawapat's claim that there are no political prisoners in Thailand. That was the only substantive statement the Thai envoy made against the original Washington Post editorial, and it has no credibility."

In other words, his statement that there are no political prisoners in Thailand has no credibility. You seem to agree, since you stated that "those hundreds are more like tens"--you are disputing the count but not fact that there are political prisoners in Thailand.

"So, with the Prayuth government depending on the Ministry of Education bureaucrats just like the previous governments, what can go wrong."

Well let's see, we have the white-washing of Thaksin's name out of the history books http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1413811048&typecate=06&section=. And I suspect it's only a matter of time before the "Twelve values", which only mention democracy briefly and in a qualified sense, are mandatory for young people to learn http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1418379319&section=11&typecate=06. My biggest fear is what a man of his mindset can do as leader of a 'super board' on education reform. Feng shui, holy water to ward off curses, fear of a democracy trap--what could possibly go right?

"At least they don't quote a criminal fugitive's view as being the philosophy to base their policy on."

Once again, the decades old quote that has you so worried is:

"Police Lieutenant Colonel Dr. Thaksin Shinawatra has said about education that “Education will lead to the building of people’s vigour. Vigorous and knowledgeable people are powerful capital to fight with poverty.” “Emphases must be on distribution of benefits with equity, and on regards of people with difficulties, in order to provide quality education for everyone.” “Education is an important key, a starting element that is necessary in making poverty become past.”" http://www.sathukit....u-policy-en.pdf

Basically he said "Education helps people get out of poverty." Do you disagree with the message? Or do you think the entire educational system of Thailand was somehow corrupted because of this benign quote from Thaksin's days in the police? Do you think stating what many consider to be obvious, that education helps people escape poverty, is worse than rewriting school history books to remove an inconvenient political leader?

credibility: "few people believe Pisan Manawapat's claim that there are no political prisoners in Thailand. That was the only substantive statement the Thai envoy made against the original Washington Post editorial, and it has no credibility."

So, you and others state the 'no credibility' but fail to substantiate. Therefore I can only come to the conclusion you state your opinion only and that has limited value.

As for the quote you still don't get it it seems. It's not the contents, it the very fact that the Minister of Education uses the musings of a criminal fugitive as philosophy to base his policy on. It doesn't matter that the criminal fugitive happens to be Thaksin, immaterial. It's doesn't matter what is quoted, immaterial. It's purely the fact that the words of a criminal fugitive are used as philosophy to base a countries education policy on.

The current MoE scrapped said criminal fugitive from the books. A mistake I think. One needs examples on how the mighty fall because of selfishness.

The Thai envoy stated that there are no political prisoners in Thailand, I posted that this statement had no credibility, you conceded that there are political prisoners, but you still need substantiation? Do you not believe your own post?

The most convincing substantiation is from articles that mention LM, so I will not post links to them. You may choose to ignore it, but I and others are limited by censorship. But here are a couple of links providing substantiation:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/804867-people-jailed-for-political-crimes-in-thailand-united/?p=9138282&hl=%2Bpolitical+%2Bprisoners

http://www.japanfocus.org/-Tyrell-Haberkorn/4199

I think I get it about your outrage over a Ministry of Education policy paper that begins with a decades old and quite benign quote by Thaksin---you can't defend the junta's clumsy mucking about in education and this quote is the only pretext you can find with which to criticize the previous elected government's management of education. I have difficulty believing you really think a Thaksin quote that essentially says "Education provides a way out of poverty" is a corrupting philosophy.

But perhaps you really are so Thaksin-phobic you genuinely believe he corrupts all things. The Ministry of Education stating that education provides an avenue out of poverty is acceptable, the Ministry of Education quoting Thaksin in saying that education provides an avenue out of poverty is corrupted. Just as I can't prevent you from seeing bias where you want to see it, I can't cure you of a phobia that you are clearly attached to.

Edited March 5, 2015 by heybruce

rubl · March 6, 2015

"The bias of the WP editorial is in positioning the Shinawatras as victims which has nothing to do with a democratic state."

Ok, I can't prevent you from seeing bias where you want to see it, but I and others don't view the editorial that way.

"That you and others think the statements of k. Pisan have no credibility is nice, but unsubstanciated."

Are you getting a bit desperate? You're inventing things I didn't post. I posted:

"...few people believe Pisan Manawapat's claim that there are no political prisoners in Thailand. That was the only substantive statement the Thai envoy made against the original Washington Post editorial, and it has no credibility."

In other words, his statement that there are no political prisoners in Thailand has no credibility. You seem to agree, since you stated that "those hundreds are more like tens"--you are disputing the count but not fact that there are political prisoners in Thailand.

"So, with the Prayuth government depending on the Ministry of Education bureaucrats just like the previous governments, what can go wrong."

Well let's see, we have the white-washing of Thaksin's name out of the history books http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1413811048&typecate=06&section=. And I suspect it's only a matter of time before the "Twelve values", which only mention democracy briefly and in a qualified sense, are mandatory for young people to learn http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1418379319&section=11&typecate=06. My biggest fear is what a man of his mindset can do as leader of a 'super board' on education reform. Feng shui, holy water to ward off curses, fear of a democracy trap--what could possibly go right?

"At least they don't quote a criminal fugitive's view as being the philosophy to base their policy on."

Once again, the decades old quote that has you so worried is:

"Police Lieutenant Colonel Dr. Thaksin Shinawatra has said about education that “Education will lead to the building of people’s vigour. Vigorous and knowledgeable people are powerful capital to fight with poverty.” “Emphases must be on distribution of benefits with equity, and on regards of people with difficulties, in order to provide quality education for everyone.” “Education is an important key, a starting element that is necessary in making poverty become past.”" http://www.sathukit....u-policy-en.pdf

Basically he said "Education helps people get out of poverty." Do you disagree with the message? Or do you think the entire educational system of Thailand was somehow corrupted because of this benign quote from Thaksin's days in the police? Do you think stating what many consider to be obvious, that education helps people escape poverty, is worse than rewriting school history books to remove an inconvenient political leader?

credibility: "few people believe Pisan Manawapat's claim that there are no political prisoners in Thailand. That was the only substantive statement the Thai envoy made against the original Washington Post editorial, and it has no credibility."

So, you and others state the 'no credibility' but fail to substantiate. Therefore I can only come to the conclusion you state your opinion only and that has limited value.

As for the quote you still don't get it it seems. It's not the contents, it the very fact that the Minister of Education uses the musings of a criminal fugitive as philosophy to base his policy on. It doesn't matter that the criminal fugitive happens to be Thaksin, immaterial. It's doesn't matter what is quoted, immaterial. It's purely the fact that the words of a criminal fugitive are used as philosophy to base a countries education policy on.

The current MoE scrapped said criminal fugitive from the books. A mistake I think. One needs examples on how the mighty fall because of selfishness.

The Thai envoy stated that there are no political prisoners in Thailand, I posted that this statement had no credibility, you conceded that there are political prisoners, but you still need substantiation? Do you not believe your own post?

The most convincing substantiation is from articles that mention LM, so I will not post links to them. You may choose to ignore it, but I and others are limited by censorship. But here are a couple of links providing substantiation:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/804867-people-jailed-for-political-crimes-in-thailand-united/?p=9138282&hl=%2Bpolitical+%2Bprisoners

http://www.japanfocus.org/-Tyrell-Haberkorn/4199

I think I get it about your outrage over a Ministry of Education policy paper that begins with a decades old and quite benign quote by Thaksin---you can't defend the junta's clumsy mucking about in education and this quote is the only pretext you can find with which to criticize the previous elected government's management of education. I have difficulty believing you really think a Thaksin quote that essentially says "Education provides a way out of poverty" is a corrupting philosophy.

But perhaps you really are so Thaksin-phobic you genuinely believe he corrupts all things. The Ministry of Education stating that education provides an avenue out of poverty is acceptable, the Ministry of Education quoting Thaksin in saying that education provides an avenue out of poverty is corrupted. Just as I can't prevent you from seeing bias where you want to see it, I can't cure you of a phobia that you are clearly attached to.

And you still don't get it. This has nothing to do with Thaksin. This has to do with a MoE quoting from a criminal fugitive and using that criminal's words as philosophy to base his policy for Education in Thailand on. Do criminals in your country of birth get that type of recognition?

As for political prisoners, WP has hundreds, the Envoy has none and some hide behind 'abuse of LM' or in 'self-exile'. The credibility lays in the definition of 'political'. Some take that a bit broad as even Ms. Yingluck's possible charge in the 'self-financing' 700 billion Baht loss RPPS is stated to be political only.

rubl · March 6, 2015

"I only mentioned the previous MoE as you wondered what made the 'junta' better at education."

And you have provided no reason to believe the junta is better qualified to educate the population about democracy. It seems obvious it is not.

"You still have a funny idea about education if you see nothing wrong with a MoE quoting a criminal fugitive who happens to be the brother of the PM, the brother who orders 'his' cabinet around from afar'."

You are very careful to avoid the message, you simply imply the messenger corrupts all who apply the message. Does that apply in other areas? Roman Polanski is a criminal fugitive film director who plead guilty to charges of plying a 13 year old girl with drugs and alcohol then raping and sodomizing her. Do you think anyone who watches movies such as "Rosmary's Baby", "Chinatown", "The Pianist", and many others supports pedophilia?

"Just to show that 'elected' governments in Thailand do not have a good name in education. It would seem the current government cannot do worse and probably better."

The elected governments did improve access to education in much of Thailand, and didn't engage in historical white-washing and propaganda to the degree that the junta is doing so. It would seem a deeply superstitious coup leader with limited education is already doing much worse in education.

"As for your description of PM Prayuth the same goes for many Thai including 'real' politicians and those from Thai-Chinese families."

As a percentage of population the number of Thais who have lead a coup and who's education is limited to military schools is small, so I assume you mean many Thais are deeply superstitious, to the degree of allowing superstition to guide their lives. No doubt true, but none of these people should be allowed to influence the education system in Thailand in any way.

"Next the article. It show a bias towards the Shinawatras. It mentions "hundreds of political prisoners AND Ms. Yingluck's criminal persecution". Only that already suggest that Ms. Yingluck is 'obviously' innocent, apart from the fact that Ms. Yingluck isn't criminally persecuted, she's only indicted and justly so."

Finally, something on-topic. I don't read a bias towards the Shinawatras in the editorial, I read a bias towards elected governments and against military rule. The Washington Post is not alone in being concerned about political prisoners in Thailand http://news.asiaone.com/news/asian-opinions/international-community-sceptical-thai-governments-reform-claims, and few people believe Pisan Manawapat's claim that there are no political prisoners in Thailand. That was the only substantive statement the Thai envoy made against the original Washington Post editorial, and it has no credibility.

What qualifies as criminal persecution is debatable, but the fact that elected leaders get prosecuted in Thailand and coup leaders don't is not debatable. Outside of Thailand that is seen as blatantly anti-democratic.

The bias of the WP editorial is in positioning the Shinawatras as victims which has nothing to do with a democratic state. Also the 'hundreds of political prisoners' AND "criminal charging of Ms. Yingluck" together suggests these are comparable aspects of the junta. It would seem those hundreds are more like tens and most in 'self-exile'. same like Snowden who seeks guarantees for a fair process before returning to the USA.

That you and others think the statements of k. Pisan have no credibility is nice, but unsubstanciated.

Furthermore even under a real democracy Ms. Yingluck could be criminally charged, and most likely would ( assuming she ever would have got the chance to get her 'self-financing' scheme started).

So, with the Prayuth government depending on the Ministry of Education bureaucrats just like the previous governments, what can go wrong. At least they don't quote a criminal fugitive's view as being the philosophy to base their policy on. Mind you, who knows if instead of Pol. Lieut-Col it had been Army Lieut-Col ... ... ).

BTW your comparison with people going to a Polanski movie seems a bit obsessed. It's not as if Polanski's past was used as philosophy to explain why people should follow his ideas.

The bias of the WP editorial

the issue here is not any bias at the Washington Post, ...

Thanks for the smileys.

Assuming you stopped laughing did you manage to come with an explanation? You don't see any bias in a statement of hundreds of non-existing political prisoners which is followed by Ms. Yinglucks criminal prosecution? Praise be the Shinawatras for their insight in how to misuse democracy?

heybruce · March 6, 2015

"The bias of the WP editorial is in positioning the Shinawatras as victims which has nothing to do with a democratic state."

Ok, I can't prevent you from seeing bias where you want to see it, but I and others don't view the editorial that way.

"That you and others think the statements of k. Pisan have no credibility is nice, but unsubstanciated."

Are you getting a bit desperate? You're inventing things I didn't post. I posted:

"...few people believe Pisan Manawapat's claim that there are no political prisoners in Thailand. That was the only substantive statement the Thai envoy made against the original Washington Post editorial, and it has no credibility."

In other words, his statement that there are no political prisoners in Thailand has no credibility. You seem to agree, since you stated that "those hundreds are more like tens"--you are disputing the count but not fact that there are political prisoners in Thailand.

"So, with the Prayuth government depending on the Ministry of Education bureaucrats just like the previous governments, what can go wrong."

Well let's see, we have the white-washing of Thaksin's name out of the history books http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1413811048&typecate=06&section=. And I suspect it's only a matter of time before the "Twelve values", which only mention democracy briefly and in a qualified sense, are mandatory for young people to learn http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1418379319&section=11&typecate=06. My biggest fear is what a man of his mindset can do as leader of a 'super board' on education reform. Feng shui, holy water to ward off curses, fear of a democracy trap--what could possibly go right?

"At least they don't quote a criminal fugitive's view as being the philosophy to base their policy on."

Once again, the decades old quote that has you so worried is:

"Police Lieutenant Colonel Dr. Thaksin Shinawatra has said about education that “Education will lead to the building of people’s vigour. Vigorous and knowledgeable people are powerful capital to fight with poverty.” “Emphases must be on distribution of benefits with equity, and on regards of people with difficulties, in order to provide quality education for everyone.” “Education is an important key, a starting element that is necessary in making poverty become past.”" http://www.sathukit....u-policy-en.pdf

Basically he said "Education helps people get out of poverty." Do you disagree with the message? Or do you think the entire educational system of Thailand was somehow corrupted because of this benign quote from Thaksin's days in the police? Do you think stating what many consider to be obvious, that education helps people escape poverty, is worse than rewriting school history books to remove an inconvenient political leader?

credibility: "few people believe Pisan Manawapat's claim that there are no political prisoners in Thailand. That was the only substantive statement the Thai envoy made against the original Washington Post editorial, and it has no credibility."

So, you and others state the 'no credibility' but fail to substantiate. Therefore I can only come to the conclusion you state your opinion only and that has limited value.

As for the quote you still don't get it it seems. It's not the contents, it the very fact that the Minister of Education uses the musings of a criminal fugitive as philosophy to base his policy on. It doesn't matter that the criminal fugitive happens to be Thaksin, immaterial. It's doesn't matter what is quoted, immaterial. It's purely the fact that the words of a criminal fugitive are used as philosophy to base a countries education policy on.

The current MoE scrapped said criminal fugitive from the books. A mistake I think. One needs examples on how the mighty fall because of selfishness.

The Thai envoy stated that there are no political prisoners in Thailand, I posted that this statement had no credibility, you conceded that there are political prisoners, but you still need substantiation? Do you not believe your own post?

The most convincing substantiation is from articles that mention LM, so I will not post links to them. You may choose to ignore it, but I and others are limited by censorship. But here are a couple of links providing substantiation:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/804867-people-jailed-for-political-crimes-in-thailand-united/?p=9138282&hl=%2Bpolitical+%2Bprisoners

http://www.japanfocus.org/-Tyrell-Haberkorn/4199

I think I get it about your outrage over a Ministry of Education policy paper that begins with a decades old and quite benign quote by Thaksin---you can't defend the junta's clumsy mucking about in education and this quote is the only pretext you can find with which to criticize the previous elected government's management of education. I have difficulty believing you really think a Thaksin quote that essentially says "Education provides a way out of poverty" is a corrupting philosophy.

But perhaps you really are so Thaksin-phobic you genuinely believe he corrupts all things. The Ministry of Education stating that education provides an avenue out of poverty is acceptable, the Ministry of Education quoting Thaksin in saying that education provides an avenue out of poverty is corrupted. Just as I can't prevent you from seeing bias where you want to see it, I can't cure you of a phobia that you are clearly attached to.

And you still don't get it. This has nothing to do with Thaksin. This has to do with a MoE quoting from a criminal fugitive and using that criminal's words as philosophy to base his policy for Education in Thailand on. Do criminals in your country of birth get that type of recognition?

As for political prisoners, WP has hundreds, the Envoy has none and some hide behind 'abuse of LM' or in 'self-exile'. The credibility lays in the definition of 'political'. Some take that a bit broad as even Ms. Yingluck's possible charge in the 'self-financing' 700 billion Baht loss RPPS is stated to be political only.

So now you're claiming that there are political prisoners in Thailand but stating there is no consensus on how to count them. Doesn't that mean the Thai envoy's statement that there are no political prisoners in Thailand has no credibility? That was my claim.

BTW, "some hide behind 'abuse of LM'"? None of the details of LM offenses are published, all we are told is that people are found guilty or plead guilty to get a shorter prison sentence, then they are sent to prison for a long time. It's easy to see how this system can lead to speculation about abuse of LM, especially since the number of LM offenses has increased dramatically since the coup.

"This has nothing to do with Thaksin."

Yeah, I'm not buying that.

"This has to do with a MoE quoting from a criminal fugitive and using that criminal's words as philosophy to base his policy for Education in Thailand on."

Once again, the Thaksin statement that has you so upset merely states that education alleviates poverty. That's it, nothing else. It's a stretch to say it's a philosophy, it's ridiculous to say the statement has no place in an education policy paper. I'm sure Thaksin occasionally said "Sawat dii khrap", does that mean everyone who says that has been corrupted?

I can only assume that in your world substance doesn't matter, it's all about the symbolism. Thaksin was one of many corrupt PM's, but he was convicted in the aftermath of a coup so the symbolism of quoting his "philosophy" that education alleviates poverty is unacceptable. Prayuth hasn't been convicted, so the symbolism of having a 'super board' on education reform led by a deeply superstitious coup leader with limited education, little respect for accepted norms of human rights and strange ideas about democracy doesn't bother you.

Edited March 6, 2015 by heybruce

rubl · March 6, 2015

And you still don't get it. This has nothing to do with Thaksin. This has to do with a MoE quoting from a criminal fugitive and using that criminal's words as philosophy to base his policy for Education in Thailand on. Do criminals in your country of birth get that type of recognition?

As for political prisoners, WP has hundreds, the Envoy has none and some hide behind 'abuse of LM' or in 'self-exile'. The credibility lays in the definition of 'political'. Some take that a bit broad as even Ms. Yingluck's possible charge in the 'self-financing' 700 billion Baht loss RPPS is stated to be political only.

So now you're claiming that there are political prisoners in Thailand but stating there is no consensus on how to count them. Doesn't that mean the Thai envoy's statement that there are no political prisoners in Thailand has no credibility? That was my claim.

BTW, "some hide behind 'abuse of LM'"? None of the details of LM offenses are published, all we are told is that people are found guilty or plead guilty to get a shorter prison sentence, then they are sent to prison for a long time. It's easy to see how this system can lead to speculation about abuse of LM, especially since the number of LM offenses has increased dramatically since the coup.

"This has nothing to do with Thaksin."

Yeah, I'm not buying that.

"This has to do with a MoE quoting from a criminal fugitive and using that criminal's words as philosophy to base his policy for Education in Thailand on."

Once again, the Thaksin statement that has you so upset merely states that education alleviates poverty. That's it, nothing else. It's a stretch to say it's a philosophy, it's ridiculous to say the statement has no place in an education policy paper. I'm sure Thaksin occasionally said "Sawat dii khrap", does that mean everyone who says that has been corrupted?

I can only assume that in your world substance doesn't matter, it's all about the symbolism. Thaksin was one of many corrupt PM's, but he was convicted in the aftermath of a coup so the symbolism of quoting his "philosophy" that education alleviates poverty is unacceptable. Prayuth hasn't been convicted, so the symbolism of having a 'super board' on education reform led by a deeply superstitious coup leader with limited education, little respect for accepted norms of human rights and strange ideas about democracy doesn't bother you.

Credibility and diplomats go well together. It's just a matter of perspective. Even the USA Envoy said such when having his talk in Chula. So, who says there are political prisoners in Thailand, or even hundreds as the WP editorial claimed.

As for the quote, you really are dense aren't you. We have a Minister of Education who justifies his policy on the Educational Program for Thai schools on the philosophy which consists mainly of what a fugitive from justice may have said. Imagine the Education Program for Thai schools based on a philosophy of a fugitive from justice, a bail jumper, an ordinary criminal. If you find nothing wrong with that, I wonder what is the norm in whatever country you come from. And finding nothing wrong with this you even question why the NCPO would be better at it? Did they quote a criminal fugitive as shining example for impressible young children?

I wonder why you post here, you don't seem to care about Thailand.

Muirton · March 6, 2015

I know what you wrote but you are discussing democracy which involves elections, not appointments.

heybruce · March 6, 2015

And you still don't get it. This has nothing to do with Thaksin. This has to do with a MoE quoting from a criminal fugitive and using that criminal's words as philosophy to base his policy for Education in Thailand on. Do criminals in your country of birth get that type of recognition?

As for political prisoners, WP has hundreds, the Envoy has none and some hide behind 'abuse of LM' or in 'self-exile'. The credibility lays in the definition of 'political'. Some take that a bit broad as even Ms. Yingluck's possible charge in the 'self-financing' 700 billion Baht loss RPPS is stated to be political only.

So now you're claiming that there are political prisoners in Thailand but stating there is no consensus on how to count them. Doesn't that mean the Thai envoy's statement that there are no political prisoners in Thailand has no credibility? That was my claim.

BTW, "some hide behind 'abuse of LM'"? None of the details of LM offenses are published, all we are told is that people are found guilty or plead guilty to get a shorter prison sentence, then they are sent to prison for a long time. It's easy to see how this system can lead to speculation about abuse of LM, especially since the number of LM offenses has increased dramatically since the coup.

"This has nothing to do with Thaksin."

Yeah, I'm not buying that.

"This has to do with a MoE quoting from a criminal fugitive and using that criminal's words as philosophy to base his policy for Education in Thailand on."

Once again, the Thaksin statement that has you so upset merely states that education alleviates poverty. That's it, nothing else. It's a stretch to say it's a philosophy, it's ridiculous to say the statement has no place in an education policy paper. I'm sure Thaksin occasionally said "Sawat dii khrap", does that mean everyone who says that has been corrupted?

I can only assume that in your world substance doesn't matter, it's all about the symbolism. Thaksin was one of many corrupt PM's, but he was convicted in the aftermath of a coup so the symbolism of quoting his "philosophy" that education alleviates poverty is unacceptable. Prayuth hasn't been convicted, so the symbolism of having a 'super board' on education reform led by a deeply superstitious coup leader with limited education, little respect for accepted norms of human rights and strange ideas about democracy doesn't bother you.

Credibility and diplomats go well together. It's just a matter of perspective. Even the USA Envoy said such when having his talk in Chula. So, who says there are political prisoners in Thailand, or even hundreds as the WP editorial claimed.

As for the quote, you really are dense aren't you. We have a Minister of Education who justifies his policy on the Educational Program for Thai schools on the philosophy which consists mainly of what a fugitive from justice may have said. Imagine the Education Program for Thai schools based on a philosophy of a fugitive from justice, a bail jumper, an ordinary criminal. If you find nothing wrong with that, I wonder what is the norm in whatever country you come from. And finding nothing wrong with this you even question why the NCPO would be better at it? Did they quote a criminal fugitive as shining example for impressible young children?

I wonder why you post here, you don't seem to care about Thailand.

I am enjoying the level of absurdity of your replies, if I didn't care about the future of Thailand I'd consider this hilarious.

First, I stated that the Thai envoy's claim that there are no political prisoners in Thailand has no credibility, you concede there are political prisoners in Thailand but challenge me to provide evidence (to support your claim?), I provide evidence and you once again concede there are political prisoners but try to ignore the fact that the envoy stated there are no political prisoners in Thailand. Now you desperately try to change the topic with vague "perspective" stuff. Please do continue, I love it when a poster pretending to be serious descends into absurdity.

"As for the quote, you really are dense aren't you."

No, but your certainly are appearing dense. You do understand the idea of "substance over symbolism", don't you?

"We have a Minister of Education who justifies his policy on the Educational Program for Thai schools on the philosophy which consists mainly of what a fugitive from justice may have said."

Huh? "may have said"? Even I don't dispute the fact that decades ago Thaksisn said the education is a good thing that provides an avenue out of poverty.

After this your post got worse. I value substance over symbolism. You value selective symbolism over substance. I agree with the statement that education provides a means to escape poverty, regardless of the source of this statement. You obsess over the fact that the quote came from a former PM who was convicted of corruption in the aftermath of a coup.

Most absurdly, you ignore the risks of a coup leader of limited education, no respect for democracy, and weirdly superstitious views leading a 'super board' on education reform that is supposed to prepare the Thai people for democracy. Are you smoking something?

Let me put this very clearly--I don't care if Hitler, Attila the Hun, or Satan said the "education provides an avenue out of poverty", I agree with the statement and have no problem with an education policy paper quoting the statement. As I said, I value substance over symbolism. If you can provide details to substantiate your claim that the philosophy of the education policy that begins with this benign statement is somehow wrong, please do continue.

"I wonder why you post here, you don't seem to care about Thailand."

That is based on what? The fact that I respect the intelligence of the Thai people and their ability to choose their leaders in a democratic election? The fact that I want better for the Thai people than a repressive military government?

rubl · March 7, 2015

And you still don't get it. This has nothing to do with Thaksin. This has to do with a MoE quoting from a criminal fugitive and using that criminal's words as philosophy to base his policy for Education in Thailand on. Do criminals in your country of birth get that type of recognition?

As for political prisoners, WP has hundreds, the Envoy has none and some hide behind 'abuse of LM' or in 'self-exile'. The credibility lays in the definition of 'political'. Some take that a bit broad as even Ms. Yingluck's possible charge in the 'self-financing' 700 billion Baht loss RPPS is stated to be political only.

So now you're claiming that there are political prisoners in Thailand but stating there is no consensus on how to count them. Doesn't that mean the Thai envoy's statement that there are no political prisoners in Thailand has no credibility? That was my claim.

BTW, "some hide behind 'abuse of LM'"? None of the details of LM offenses are published, all we are told is that people are found guilty or plead guilty to get a shorter prison sentence, then they are sent to prison for a long time. It's easy to see how this system can lead to speculation about abuse of LM, especially since the number of LM offenses has increased dramatically since the coup.

"This has nothing to do with Thaksin."

Yeah, I'm not buying that.

"This has to do with a MoE quoting from a criminal fugitive and using that criminal's words as philosophy to base his policy for Education in Thailand on."

Once again, the Thaksin statement that has you so upset merely states that education alleviates poverty. That's it, nothing else. It's a stretch to say it's a philosophy, it's ridiculous to say the statement has no place in an education policy paper. I'm sure Thaksin occasionally said "Sawat dii khrap", does that mean everyone who says that has been corrupted?

I can only assume that in your world substance doesn't matter, it's all about the symbolism. Thaksin was one of many corrupt PM's, but he was convicted in the aftermath of a coup so the symbolism of quoting his "philosophy" that education alleviates poverty is unacceptable. Prayuth hasn't been convicted, so the symbolism of having a 'super board' on education reform led by a deeply superstitious coup leader with limited education, little respect for accepted norms of human rights and strange ideas about democracy doesn't bother you.

Credibility and diplomats go well together. It's just a matter of perspective. Even the USA Envoy said such when having his talk in Chula. So, who says there are political prisoners in Thailand, or even hundreds as the WP editorial claimed.

As for the quote, you really are dense aren't you. We have a Minister of Education who justifies his policy on the Educational Program for Thai schools on the philosophy which consists mainly of what a fugitive from justice may have said. Imagine the Education Program for Thai schools based on a philosophy of a fugitive from justice, a bail jumper, an ordinary criminal. If you find nothing wrong with that, I wonder what is the norm in whatever country you come from. And finding nothing wrong with this you even question why the NCPO would be better at it? Did they quote a criminal fugitive as shining example for impressible young children?

I wonder why you post here, you don't seem to care about Thailand.

I am enjoying the level of absurdity of your replies, if I didn't care about the future of Thailand I'd consider this hilarious.

First, I stated that the Thai envoy's claim that there are no political prisoners in Thailand has no credibility, you concede there are political prisoners in Thailand but challenge me to provide evidence (to support your claim?), I provide evidence and you once again concede there are political prisoners but try to ignore the fact that the envoy stated there are no political prisoners in Thailand. Now you desperately try to change the topic with vague "perspective" stuff. Please do continue, I love it when a poster pretending to be serious descends into absurdity.

"As for the quote, you really are dense aren't you."

No, but your certainly are appearing dense. You do understand the idea of "substance over symbolism", don't you?

"We have a Minister of Education who justifies his policy on the Educational Program for Thai schools on the philosophy which consists mainly of what a fugitive from justice may have said."

Huh? "may have said"? Even I don't dispute the fact that decades ago Thaksisn said the education is a good thing that provides an avenue out of poverty.

After this your post got worse. I value substance over symbolism. You value selective symbolism over substance. I agree with the statement that education provides a means to escape poverty, regardless of the source of this statement. You obsess over the fact that the quote came from a former PM who was convicted of corruption in the aftermath of a coup.

Most absurdly, you ignore the risks of a coup leader of limited education, no respect for democracy, and weirdly superstitious views leading a 'super board' on education reform that is supposed to prepare the Thai people for democracy. Are you smoking something?

Let me put this very clearly--I don't care if Hitler, Attila the Hun, or Satan said the "education provides an avenue out of poverty", I agree with the statement and have no problem with an education policy paper quoting the statement. As I said, I value substance over symbolism. If you can provide details to substantiate your claim that the philosophy of the education policy that begins with this benign statement is somehow wrong, please do continue.

"I wonder why you post here, you don't seem to care about Thailand."

That is based on what? The fact that I respect the intelligence of the Thai people and their ability to choose their leaders in a democratic election? The fact that I want better for the Thai people than a repressive military government?

You still don't get it. A Minister of Education is not supposed to base his policy for the Public School Education Program for a country on the philosophy of a fugitive from justice, a common criminal.

For your information said MoE didn't just write a statement, he explicitly made sure everyone could see who it was from, a common bail jumping criminal fugitive. He starts his philosophy with

"Police Lieutenant Colonel Dr. Thaksin Shinawatra has said about education that"

as if to provoke all democracy loving people! As if he wants to make sure it's understood he favours this criminal. He even continues with

"Pheu Thai Party Government shall take care of Thai people as family members and not hurt them nor misapply their money"

The last was a few months before he tried to legalise tea money for public school places.

As for political prisoners, there maybe some, depending on what definition of 'political prisoners' you favour.

Name me the hundreds WP editorial mentioned, or even two dozen if you can. Just the names, no need to go into the alleged crime.

Edited March 7, 2015 by rubl

heybruce · March 7, 2015

So now you're claiming that there are political prisoners in Thailand but stating there is no consensus on how to count them. Doesn't that mean the Thai envoy's statement that there are no political prisoners in Thailand has no credibility? That was my claim.

BTW, "some hide behind 'abuse of LM'"? None of the details of LM offenses are published, all we are told is that people are found guilty or plead guilty to get a shorter prison sentence, then they are sent to prison for a long time. It's easy to see how this system can lead to speculation about abuse of LM, especially since the number of LM offenses has increased dramatically since the coup.

"This has nothing to do with Thaksin."

Yeah, I'm not buying that.

"This has to do with a MoE quoting from a criminal fugitive and using that criminal's words as philosophy to base his policy for Education in Thailand on."

Once again, the Thaksin statement that has you so upset merely states that education alleviates poverty. That's it, nothing else. It's a stretch to say it's a philosophy, it's ridiculous to say the statement has no place in an education policy paper. I'm sure Thaksin occasionally said "Sawat dii khrap", does that mean everyone who says that has been corrupted?

I can only assume that in your world substance doesn't matter, it's all about the symbolism. Thaksin was one of many corrupt PM's, but he was convicted in the aftermath of a coup so the symbolism of quoting his "philosophy" that education alleviates poverty is unacceptable. Prayuth hasn't been convicted, so the symbolism of having a 'super board' on education reform led by a deeply superstitious coup leader with limited education, little respect for accepted norms of human rights and strange ideas about democracy doesn't bother you.

Credibility and diplomats go well together. It's just a matter of perspective. Even the USA Envoy said such when having his talk in Chula. So, who says there are political prisoners in Thailand, or even hundreds as the WP editorial claimed.

As for the quote, you really are dense aren't you. We have a Minister of Education who justifies his policy on the Educational Program for Thai schools on the philosophy which consists mainly of what a fugitive from justice may have said. Imagine the Education Program for Thai schools based on a philosophy of a fugitive from justice, a bail jumper, an ordinary criminal. If you find nothing wrong with that, I wonder what is the norm in whatever country you come from. And finding nothing wrong with this you even question why the NCPO would be better at it? Did they quote a criminal fugitive as shining example for impressible young children?

I wonder why you post here, you don't seem to care about Thailand.

I am enjoying the level of absurdity of your replies, if I didn't care about the future of Thailand I'd consider this hilarious.

First, I stated that the Thai envoy's claim that there are no political prisoners in Thailand has no credibility, you concede there are political prisoners in Thailand but challenge me to provide evidence (to support your claim?), I provide evidence and you once again concede there are political prisoners but try to ignore the fact that the envoy stated there are no political prisoners in Thailand. Now you desperately try to change the topic with vague "perspective" stuff. Please do continue, I love it when a poster pretending to be serious descends into absurdity.

"As for the quote, you really are dense aren't you."

No, but your certainly are appearing dense. You do understand the idea of "substance over symbolism", don't you?

"We have a Minister of Education who justifies his policy on the Educational Program for Thai schools on the philosophy which consists mainly of what a fugitive from justice may have said."

Huh? "may have said"? Even I don't dispute the fact that decades ago Thaksisn said the education is a good thing that provides an avenue out of poverty.

After this your post got worse. I value substance over symbolism. You value selective symbolism over substance. I agree with the statement that education provides a means to escape poverty, regardless of the source of this statement. You obsess over the fact that the quote came from a former PM who was convicted of corruption in the aftermath of a coup.

Most absurdly, you ignore the risks of a coup leader of limited education, no respect for democracy, and weirdly superstitious views leading a 'super board' on education reform that is supposed to prepare the Thai people for democracy. Are you smoking something?

Let me put this very clearly--I don't care if Hitler, Attila the Hun, or Satan said the "education provides an avenue out of poverty", I agree with the statement and have no problem with an education policy paper quoting the statement. As I said, I value substance over symbolism. If you can provide details to substantiate your claim that the philosophy of the education policy that begins with this benign statement is somehow wrong, please do continue.

"I wonder why you post here, you don't seem to care about Thailand."

That is based on what? The fact that I respect the intelligence of the Thai people and their ability to choose their leaders in a democratic election? The fact that I want better for the Thai people than a repressive military government?

You still don't get it. A Minister of Education is not supposed to base his policy for the Public School Education Program for a country on the philosophy of a fugitive from justice, a common criminal.

For your information said MoE didn't just write a statement, he explicitly made sure everyone could see who it was from, a common bail jumping criminal fugitive. He starts his philosophy with

"Police Lieutenant Colonel Dr. Thaksin Shinawatra has said about education that"

as if to provoke all democracy loving people! As if he wants to make sure it's understood he favours this criminal. He even continues with

"Pheu Thai Party Government shall take care of Thai people as family members and not hurt them nor misapply their money"

The last was a few months before he tried to legalise tea money for public school places.

As for political prisoners, there maybe some, depending on what definition of 'political prisoners' you favour.

Name me the hundreds WP editorial mentioned, or even two dozen if you can. Just the names, no need to go into the alleged crime.

"As for political prisoners, there maybe some, depending on what definition of 'political prisoners' you favour.

Name me the hundreds WP editorial mentioned, or even two dozen if you can. Just the names, no need to go into the alleged crime."

It's funny when you zig-zag--replying to things I never posted. I have never pretended to know the number of political prisoners in Thailand, I just know that there are political prisoners. I posted that the Thai envoy's claim that there are no political prisoners in Thailand had no credibility. You disputed this even though you agreed there are political prisoners in Thailand when you posted "It would seem those hundreds are more like tens..." Let's make this very simple--do you agree or disagree with the envoy's statement that there are no political prisoners in Thailand?

"You still don't get it. A Minister of Education is not supposed to base his policy for the Public School Education Program for a country on the philosophy of a fugitive from justice, a common criminal."

Once again, the quote from Thaksin stated that education provides an avenue out of poverty. You call this a "philosophy" in order to make it seem more significant than it is. You never state if you agree or disagree with the quote, in fact you never state an opinion on the contents of the policy paper, you simply obsess about the source of the quote. As I clearly stated, I don't care about the source, I agree with the statement. As I also clearly stated I value substance over symbolism, you appear to do the reverse, so I'm not in the least excited by a quote I agree with but that has you outraged.

Strange that your obsession with symbolism only extends to Thaksin. You ignored the part of the post where I stated:

"Most absurdly, you ignore the risks of a coup leader of limited education, no respect for democracy, and weirdly superstitious views leading a 'super board' on education reform that is supposed to prepare the Thai people for democracy."

Doesn't both the substance and symbolism of such a blatantly unqualified man leading this super board on education reform bother you in the least?

TomJoad · March 7, 2015

I know what you wrote but you are discussing democracy which involves elections, not appointments.

Okay....so when Obama appoints a judge to the Supreme Court, that's not considered part of the democratic process?

We must have gone to different schools, Muirton.

tbthailand · March 7, 2015

I know what you wrote but you are discussing democracy which involves elections, not appointments.

Okay....so when Obama appoints a judge to the Supreme Court, that's not considered part of the democratic process?

We must have gone to different schools, Muirton.

either you have no idea what you are talking about or you are just so biased that reality doesn't interfere with typing...

NeverSure · March 7, 2015

LOL. Is this thread still going with such intensity because some dumb private newspaper, operating under freedom of the press, wrote an article?

Some Thai Envoy, with a culture of face saving, has a need to object publicly to one solitary, private sector opinion, and all of this??

Is that all it takes to get some people going, or has no one here ever seen freedom of the press before? Seven pages.

rubl · March 8, 2015

You still don't get it. A Minister of Education is not supposed to base his policy for the Public School Education Program for a country on the philosophy of a fugitive from justice, a common criminal.

For your information said MoE didn't just write a statement, he explicitly made sure everyone could see who it was from, a common bail jumping criminal fugitive. He starts his philosophy with

"Police Lieutenant Colonel Dr. Thaksin Shinawatra has said about education that"

as if to provoke all democracy loving people! As if he wants to make sure it's understood he favours this criminal. He even continues with

"Pheu Thai Party Government shall take care of Thai people as family members and not hurt them nor misapply their money"

The last was a few months before he tried to legalise tea money for public school places.

As for political prisoners, there maybe some, depending on what definition of 'political prisoners' you favour.

Name me the hundreds WP editorial mentioned, or even two dozen if you can. Just the names, no need to go into the alleged crime.

"As for political prisoners, there maybe some, depending on what definition of 'political prisoners' you favour.

Name me the hundreds WP editorial mentioned, or even two dozen if you can. Just the names, no need to go into the alleged crime."

It's funny when you zig-zag--replying to things I never posted. I have never pretended to know the number of political prisoners in Thailand, I just know that there are political prisoners. I posted that the Thai envoy's claim that there are no political prisoners in Thailand had no credibility. You disputed this even though you agreed there are political prisoners in Thailand when you posted "It would seem those hundreds are more like tens..." Let's make this very simple--do you agree or disagree with the envoy's statement that there are no political prisoners in Thailand?

"You still don't get it. A Minister of Education is not supposed to base his policy for the Public School Education Program for a country on the philosophy of a fugitive from justice, a common criminal."

Once again, the quote from Thaksin stated that education provides an avenue out of poverty. You call this a "philosophy" in order to make it seem more significant than it is. You never state if you agree or disagree with the quote, in fact you never state an opinion on the contents of the policy paper, you simply obsess about the source of the quote. As I clearly stated, I don't care about the source, I agree with the statement. As I also clearly stated I value substance over symbolism, you appear to do the reverse, so I'm not in the least excited by a quote I agree with but that has you outraged.

Strange that your obsession with symbolism only extends to Thaksin. You ignored the part of the post where I stated:

"Most absurdly, you ignore the risks of a coup leader of limited education, no respect for democracy, and weirdly superstitious views leading a 'super board' on education reform that is supposed to prepare the Thai people for democracy."

Doesn't both the substance and symbolism of such a blatantly unqualified man leading this super board on education reform bother you in the least?

So the Thai envoy was correct in protesting apart from doing his job of course.

And once again who cares what a common criminal, a fugitive from law says as long is he's not quoted in the philosophy which drives the policy for the Public School Education Program in Thailand.

BTW interesting where your quote of what I wrote goes into ...

""It would seem those hundreds are more like tens...""

Edited March 8, 2015 by rubl

rubl · March 8, 2015

LOL. Is this thread still going with such intensity because some dumb private newspaper, operating under freedom of the press, wrote an article?

Some Thai Envoy, with a culture of face saving, has a need to object publicly to one solitary, private sector opinion, and all of this??

Is that all it takes to get some people going, or has no one here ever seen freedom of the press before? Seven pages.

As Thailand's Ambassador to the USA the fellow had to react on the editorial in the WP. That's part of his job.

TheDiva · March 8, 2015

LOL. Is this thread still going with such intensity because some dumb private newspaper, operating under freedom of the press, wrote an article?

Some Thai Envoy, with a culture of face saving, has a need to object publicly to one solitary, private sector opinion, and all of this??

Is that all it takes to get some people going, or has no one here ever seen freedom of the press before? Seven pages.

As Thailand's Ambassador to the USA the fellow had to react on the editorial in the WP. That's part of his job.

So why didn't the Ambassador to the UK make comments on The Guardians (UK Newspaper) editorial Thailands generals have failed as, according to you, it's part of his job?

No, rubl, even if it's not obvious to you, or it is but you will not admit it on this forum, the junta administration are trying to whip up anti - US sentiment as they have been the most vociferous against the suspension of democracy in Thailand. The sentiments in the UK/EU towards the coup are the same as the US, but it's the US that are the bete noire of the moment. There's a long history of governments/juntas of certain political persuasion using Nationalism to further their aims in Thailand - this is no different.

rubl · March 8, 2015

LOL. Is this thread still going with such intensity because some dumb private newspaper, operating under freedom of the press, wrote an article?

Some Thai Envoy, with a culture of face saving, has a need to object publicly to one solitary, private sector opinion, and all of this??

Is that all it takes to get some people going, or has no one here ever seen freedom of the press before? Seven pages.

As Thailand's Ambassador to the USA the fellow had to react on the editorial in the WP. That's part of his job.

So why didn't the Ambassador to the UK make comments on The Guardians (UK Newspaper) editorial Thailands generals have failed as, according to you, it's part of his job?

No, rubl, even if it's not obvious to you, or it is but you will not admit it on this forum, the junta administration are trying to whip up anti - US sentiment as they have been the most vociferous against the suspension of democracy in Thailand. The sentiments in the UK/EU towards the coup are the same as the US, but it's the US that are the bete noire of the moment. There's a long history of governments/juntas of certain political persuasion using Nationalism to further their aims in Thailand - this is no different.

Ask him, or read both editorials and recognise the differences.

BTW an ambassador refuting an editorial is not the same as 'nationalism'. If it were, yo'd be accusing almost all countries in the world of nationalism.

NeverSure · March 8, 2015

As Thailand's Ambassador to the USA the fellow had to react on the editorial in the WP. That's part of his job.

So why didn't the Ambassador to the UK make comments on The Guardians (UK Newspaper) editorial Thailands generals have failed as, according to you, it's part of his job?

No, rubl, even if it's not obvious to you, or it is but you will not admit it on this forum, the junta administration are trying to whip up anti - US sentiment as they have been the most vociferous against the suspension of democracy in Thailand. The sentiments in the UK/EU towards the coup are the same as the US, but it's the US that are the bete noire of the moment. There's a long history of governments/juntas of certain political persuasion using Nationalism to further their aims in Thailand - this is no different.

Ask him, or read both editorials and recognise the differences.

BTW an ambassador refuting an editorial is not the same as 'nationalism'. If it were, yo'd be accusing almost all countries in the world of nationalism.

Rubl...

It is sophomoric for an ambassador to go public with a criticism of a private, for-profit newspaper that writes headlines and other stories for the express purpose of making a profit. There is no other reason for the newspaper to exist.

The newspaper has to sell newspapers and a bit of sensationalism is standard practice. It isn't going to write a story about paint drying in Bangkok.

I'm not surprised that a Thai couldn't handle it due to a culture of face saving. What surprise me is that farangs are all worked up about it.

It isn't the US Government. It isn't even the District of DC. It is a dumb privately owned newspaper, selling newspapers.

US politicians and officials have to have skin as thick as a buffalo to go about business because the press is always selling newspapers.

rubl · March 8, 2015

As Thailand's Ambassador to the USA the fellow had to react on the editorial in the WP. That's part of his job.

So why didn't the Ambassador to the UK make comments on The Guardians (UK Newspaper) editorial Thailands generals have failed as, according to you, it's part of his job?

No, rubl, even if it's not obvious to you, or it is but you will not admit it on this forum, the junta administration are trying to whip up anti - US sentiment as they have been the most vociferous against the suspension of democracy in Thailand. The sentiments in the UK/EU towards the coup are the same as the US, but it's the US that are the bete noire of the moment. There's a long history of governments/juntas of certain political persuasion using Nationalism to further their aims in Thailand - this is no different.

Ask him, or read both editorials and recognise the differences.

BTW an ambassador refuting an editorial is not the same as 'nationalism'. If it were, yo'd be accusing almost all countries in the world of nationalism.

Rubl...

It is sophomoric for an ambassador to go public with a criticism of a private, for-profit newspaper that writes headlines and other stories for the express purpose of making a profit. There is no other reason for the newspaper to exist.

The newspaper has to sell newspapers and a bit of sensationalism is standard practice. It isn't going to write a story about paint drying in Bangkok.

I'm not surprised that a Thai couldn't handle it due to a culture of face saving. What surprise me is that farangs are all worked up about it.

It isn't the US Government. It isn't even the District of DC. It is a dumb privately owned newspaper, selling newspapers.

US politicians and officials have to have skin as thick as a buffalo to go about business because the press is always selling newspapers.

Strange that. 'private, for-profit newspaper' and you even wrote 'dumb newspaper' earlier in this thread.

Did you see the wiki page?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Washington_Post

Anyway, the WP editorial has

"There are hundreds of political prisoners, and a criminal prosecution of ousted prime minister Yingluck Shinawatra is underway."

Statements which cannot be backed by facts. Enough reason for an ambassador to refute. Surely not the first ambassador who feels the need to refute a newspaper article.

The main difference with the Guardian piece our dear diva mentioned is phrasing. The Brits (who also have defamation laws) are good at that. It's more 'open' with 'possibilities'. As such not rewarding to even try to explain.

heybruce · March 8, 2015

You still don't get it. A Minister of Education is not supposed to base his policy for the Public School Education Program for a country on the philosophy of a fugitive from justice, a common criminal.

For your information said MoE didn't just write a statement, he explicitly made sure everyone could see who it was from, a common bail jumping criminal fugitive. He starts his philosophy with

"Police Lieutenant Colonel Dr. Thaksin Shinawatra has said about education that"

as if to provoke all democracy loving people! As if he wants to make sure it's understood he favours this criminal. He even continues with

"Pheu Thai Party Government shall take care of Thai people as family members and not hurt them nor misapply their money"

The last was a few months before he tried to legalise tea money for public school places.

As for political prisoners, there maybe some, depending on what definition of 'political prisoners' you favour.

Name me the hundreds WP editorial mentioned, or even two dozen if you can. Just the names, no need to go into the alleged crime.

"As for political prisoners, there maybe some, depending on what definition of 'political prisoners' you favour.

Name me the hundreds WP editorial mentioned, or even two dozen if you can. Just the names, no need to go into the alleged crime."

It's funny when you zig-zag--replying to things I never posted. I have never pretended to know the number of political prisoners in Thailand, I just know that there are political prisoners. I posted that the Thai envoy's claim that there are no political prisoners in Thailand had no credibility. You disputed this even though you agreed there are political prisoners in Thailand when you posted "It would seem those hundreds are more like tens..." Let's make this very simple--do you agree or disagree with the envoy's statement that there are no political prisoners in Thailand?

"You still don't get it. A Minister of Education is not supposed to base his policy for the Public School Education Program for a country on the philosophy of a fugitive from justice, a common criminal."

Once again, the quote from Thaksin stated that education provides an avenue out of poverty. You call this a "philosophy" in order to make it seem more significant than it is. You never state if you agree or disagree with the quote, in fact you never state an opinion on the contents of the policy paper, you simply obsess about the source of the quote. As I clearly stated, I don't care about the source, I agree with the statement. As I also clearly stated I value substance over symbolism, you appear to do the reverse, so I'm not in the least excited by a quote I agree with but that has you outraged.

Strange that your obsession with symbolism only extends to Thaksin. You ignored the part of the post where I stated:

"Most absurdly, you ignore the risks of a coup leader of limited education, no respect for democracy, and weirdly superstitious views leading a 'super board' on education reform that is supposed to prepare the Thai people for democracy."

Doesn't both the substance and symbolism of such a blatantly unqualified man leading this super board on education reform bother you in the least?

So the Thai envoy was correct in protesting apart from doing his job of course.

And once again who cares what a common criminal, a fugitive from law says as long is he's not quoted in the philosophy which drives the policy for the Public School Education Program in Thailand.

BTW interesting where your quote of what I wrote goes into ...

""It would seem those hundreds are more like tens...""

"So the Thai envoy was correct in protesting apart from doing his job of course."

Once again rubl, you should proof-read before you post. Did you mean "correct in protesting and doing his job"? More important, are you aware that we can go back and check past posts?

The statement of mine that you objected to, in my post #148, was:

"...few people believe Pisan Manawapat's claim that there are no political prisoners in Thailand. That was the only substantive statement the Thai envoy made against the original Washington Post editorial, and it has no credibility."

In the very next post you wrote:

"Also the 'hundreds of political prisoners' AND "criminal charging of Ms. Yingluck" together suggests these are comparable aspects of the junta. It would seem those hundreds are more like tens and most in 'self-exile'..."

You attempted to minimize the political prisoner situation in Thailand, but you accepted that there are political prisoners. However shortly after that, post #157, you start with:

"So, you and others state the 'no credibility' but fail to substantiate."

I stated that the only substantial part of the Thai envoys statement was his claim there are no political prisoners in Thailand, you conceded there are political prisoners in Thailand, but then you challenged me to substantiate my claim that the envoy's statement had no credibility. Once the absurdity of this was explained to you, you became increasingly general in your defense of the envoy, culminating in your confusing statement above.

You also continue with your off-topic obsession with a three year old education policy paper that quotes a decades old statement from Thaksin, a quote that basically says education provides a means to escape poverty. You attempt to make this benign statement seem significant by never providing the quote and by insisting it is the basis of the education policy of the Ministry of Education. I know of no one else who shares this obsession of yours. Perhaps if you post it here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/804357-prayut-to-lead-super-board-on-education-system-reform/#39;super%20%20board, where it is tenuously on-topic, you will find a few sympathizers, but don't hope for many.

heybruce · March 8, 2015

So why didn't the Ambassador to the UK make comments on The Guardians (UK Newspaper) editorial Thailands generals have failed as, according to you, it's part of his job?

No, rubl, even if it's not obvious to you, or it is but you will not admit it on this forum, the junta administration are trying to whip up anti - US sentiment as they have been the most vociferous against the suspension of democracy in Thailand. The sentiments in the UK/EU towards the coup are the same as the US, but it's the US that are the bete noire of the moment. There's a long history of governments/juntas of certain political persuasion using Nationalism to further their aims in Thailand - this is no different.

Ask him, or read both editorials and recognise the differences.

BTW an ambassador refuting an editorial is not the same as 'nationalism'. If it were, yo'd be accusing almost all countries in the world of nationalism.

Rubl...

It is sophomoric for an ambassador to go public with a criticism of a private, for-profit newspaper that writes headlines and other stories for the express purpose of making a profit. There is no other reason for the newspaper to exist.

The newspaper has to sell newspapers and a bit of sensationalism is standard practice. It isn't going to write a story about paint drying in Bangkok.

I'm not surprised that a Thai couldn't handle it due to a culture of face saving. What surprise me is that farangs are all worked up about it.

It isn't the US Government. It isn't even the District of DC. It is a dumb privately owned newspaper, selling newspapers.

US politicians and officials have to have skin as thick as a buffalo to go about business because the press is always selling newspapers.

Strange that. 'private, for-profit newspaper' and you even wrote 'dumb newspaper' earlier in this thread.

Did you see the wiki page?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Washington_Post

Anyway, the WP editorial has

"There are hundreds of political prisoners, and a criminal prosecution of ousted prime minister Yingluck Shinawatra is underway."

Statements which cannot be backed by facts. Enough reason for an ambassador to refute. Surely not the first ambassador who feels the need to refute a newspaper article.

The main difference with the Guardian piece our dear diva mentioned is phrasing. The Brits (who also have defamation laws) are good at that. It's more 'open' with 'possibilities'. As such not rewarding to even try to explain.

The Thai envoy damaged his credibility by stating

"There are no political prisoners in Thailand" http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/thailand-is-fully-committed-to-democracy/2015/02/27/2878ac90-bd15-11e4-9dfb-03366e719af8_story.html

On the same day the OP was posted an OP on political prisoners in Thailand was also posted: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/804867-people-jailed-for-political-crimes-in-thailand-united/?hl=%2Bpolitical

Unless the junta cooperates with people attempting to provide a count of political prisoners--how many people are currently being held for attitude adjustment, what are the details on LM prosecutions, etc., then speculation will be substituted for facts.

The WP was in error in stating that Yingluck is currently being prosecuted, at this time criminal prosecution is only being considered: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/805633-nacc-to-consider-whether-to-file-lawsuit-against-yingluck/?hl=%2Byingluck. Of course after her removal from office by the courts and detention for attitude adjustment, it's easy to see how the WP might have been confused.

Edited March 8, 2015 by heybruce

rubl · March 8, 2015

So the Thai envoy was correct in protesting apart from doing his job of course.

And once again who cares what a common criminal, a fugitive from law says as long is he's not quoted in the philosophy which drives the policy for the Public School Education Program in Thailand.

BTW interesting where your quote of what I wrote goes into ...

""It would seem those hundreds are more like tens...""

"So the Thai envoy was correct in protesting apart from doing his job of course."

Once again rubl, you should proof-read before you post. Did you mean "correct in protesting and doing his job"? More important, are you aware that we can go back and check past posts?

The statement of mine that you objected to, in my post #148, was:

"...few people believe Pisan Manawapat's claim that there are no political prisoners in Thailand. That was the only substantive statement the Thai envoy made against the original Washington Post editorial, and it has no credibility."

In the very next post you wrote:

"Also the 'hundreds of political prisoners' AND "criminal charging of Ms. Yingluck" together suggests these are comparable aspects of the junta. It would seem those hundreds are more like tens and most in 'self-exile'..."

You attempted to minimize the political prisoner situation in Thailand, but you accepted that there are political prisoners. However shortly after that, post #157, you start with:

"So, you and others state the 'no credibility' but fail to substantiate."

I stated that the only substantial part of the Thai envoys statement was his claim there are no political prisoners in Thailand, you conceded there are political prisoners in Thailand, but then you challenged me to substantiate my claim that the envoy's statement had no credibility. Once the absurdity of this was explained to you, you became increasingly general in your defense of the envoy, culminating in your confusing statement above.

You also continue with your off-topic obsession with a three year old education policy paper that quotes a decades old statement from Thaksin, a quote that basically says education provides a means to escape poverty. You attempt to make this benign statement seem significant by never providing the quote and by insisting it is the basis of the education policy of the Ministry of Education. I know of no one else who shares this obsession of yours. Perhaps if you post it here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/804357-prayut-to-lead-super-board-on-education-system-reform/#39;super%20%20board, where it is tenuously on-topic, you will find a few sympathizers, but don't hope for many.

first of all let me express my sympathy with you. Tbthailand was somewhat insulting in the 'Red Shirts get Jail" topic writing "heybruce feeds him" and "some how heybruce manages to put up with him". Shameless, as if we do not have a meaningful discussion.

Now as for political prisoners, I wrote "it would seem". With your mastery in English you could realise that I only indicate that there are reasons why it might or might not be. So 'no credibility' regarding the envoy might be similar to 'no credibility' to the WP Editorial which started this by only stating "hundreds of political prisoners" without offering proof.

As for the off-topic education, forget it. Your ideological background seems to make you blind for the total absurdity of a Minister of Education quoting and naming a common criminal in the philosophy he bases his policy for the countries Educational Program for Schools on. BTW nice try to deflect with adding 'three year old' and 'decades old' as if that has any relation to three years ago as well as now a state of 'ordinary criminal running from justice'.

rubl · March 8, 2015

Strange that. 'private, for-profit newspaper' and you even wrote 'dumb newspaper' earlier in this thread.

Did you see the wiki page?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Washington_Post

Anyway, the WP editorial has

"There are hundreds of political prisoners, and a criminal prosecution of ousted prime minister Yingluck Shinawatra is underway."

Statements which cannot be backed by facts. Enough reason for an ambassador to refute. Surely not the first ambassador who feels the need to refute a newspaper article.

The main difference with the Guardian piece our dear diva mentioned is phrasing. The Brits (who also have defamation laws) are good at that. It's more 'open' with 'possibilities'. As such not rewarding to even try to explain.

The Thai envoy damaged his credibility by stating

"There are no political prisoners in Thailand" http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/thailand-is-fully-committed-to-democracy/2015/02/27/2878ac90-bd15-11e4-9dfb-03366e719af8_story.html

On the same day the OP was posted an OP on political prisoners in Thailand was also posted: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/804867-people-jailed-for-political-crimes-in-thailand-united/?hl=%2Bpolitical

The WP was in error in stating that Yingluck is currently being prosecuted, at this time criminal prosecution is only being considered: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/805633-nacc-to-consider-whether-to-file-lawsuit-against-yingluck/?hl=%2Byingluck. Of course after her removal from office by the courts and detention for attitude adjustment, it's easy to see how the WP might have been confused.

The WP editorial also stated "hundreds of political prisoners" without providing proof. A 'good' newspaper doesn't get confused that easily, especially in a "editorial article" which suggests a bit more research that some plain journalist articles on current events,

BTW regarding Prawat's statements in

www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/804867-people-jailed-for-political-crimes-in-thailand-united

which "political prisoners" is he talking about? A few charged with LM? A few red-shirts who committed crimes? Maybe even the odd PDRC guard with a bad temper? I see nothing political in having these people either without bail awaiting trial or sentenced and serving. Seems normal justice.

heybruce · March 8, 2015

So the Thai envoy was correct in protesting apart from doing his job of course.

And once again who cares what a common criminal, a fugitive from law says as long is he's not quoted in the philosophy which drives the policy for the Public School Education Program in Thailand.

BTW interesting where your quote of what I wrote goes into ...

""It would seem those hundreds are more like tens...""

"So the Thai envoy was correct in protesting apart from doing his job of course."

Once again rubl, you should proof-read before you post. Did you mean "correct in protesting and doing his job"? More important, are you aware that we can go back and check past posts?

The statement of mine that you objected to, in my post #148, was:

"...few people believe Pisan Manawapat's claim that there are no political prisoners in Thailand. That was the only substantive statement the Thai envoy made against the original Washington Post editorial, and it has no credibility."

In the very next post you wrote:

"Also the 'hundreds of political prisoners' AND "criminal charging of Ms. Yingluck" together suggests these are comparable aspects of the junta. It would seem those hundreds are more like tens and most in 'self-exile'..."

You attempted to minimize the political prisoner situation in Thailand, but you accepted that there are political prisoners. However shortly after that, post #157, you start with:

"So, you and others state the 'no credibility' but fail to substantiate."

I stated that the only substantial part of the Thai envoys statement was his claim there are no political prisoners in Thailand, you conceded there are political prisoners in Thailand, but then you challenged me to substantiate my claim that the envoy's statement had no credibility. Once the absurdity of this was explained to you, you became increasingly general in your defense of the envoy, culminating in your confusing statement above.

You also continue with your off-topic obsession with a three year old education policy paper that quotes a decades old statement from Thaksin, a quote that basically says education provides a means to escape poverty. You attempt to make this benign statement seem significant by never providing the quote and by insisting it is the basis of the education policy of the Ministry of Education. I know of no one else who shares this obsession of yours. Perhaps if you post it here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/804357-prayut-to-lead-super-board-on-education-system-reform/#39;super%20%20board, where it is tenuously on-topic, you will find a few sympathizers, but don't hope for many.

first of all let me express my sympathy with you. Tbthailand was somewhat insulting in the 'Red Shirts get Jail" topic writing "heybruce feeds him" and "some how heybruce manages to put up with him". Shameless, as if we do not have a meaningful discussion.

Now as for political prisoners, I wrote "it would seem". With your mastery in English you could realise that I only indicate that there are reasons why it might or might not be. So 'no credibility' regarding the envoy might be similar to 'no credibility' to the WP Editorial which started this by only stating "hundreds of political prisoners" without offering proof.

As for the off-topic education, forget it. Your ideological background seems to make you blind for the total absurdity of a Minister of Education quoting and naming a common criminal in the philosophy he bases his policy for the countries Educational Program for Schools on. BTW nice try to deflect with adding 'three year old' and 'decades old' as if that has any relation to three years ago as well as now a state of 'ordinary criminal running from justice'.

I'm not insulted, tbthailand underestimated my sense of humor, a useful quality when replying to you.

Regarding "It would seem", are you stating that it would seem there are no political prisoners in Thailand? That is the only way the Thai envoy's statement to that effect would have credibility.

Regarding your off-topic stuff, let me give you something very direct so you can challenge it directly: "Education provides a means to escape poverty" is not a philosophy, in the modern world it is a statement of the obvious. Your outrage is not over a philosophy provided by a criminal fugitive, it is over a statement of the obvious provided by a former PM convicted in the aftermath of a coup. You obsess over this, but most people don't. In fact you're the only person I know with this obsession.

I can understand your reluctance to post on http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/804357-prayut-to-lead-super-board-on-education-system-reform/#39;super%20%20board. That topic describes a very serious threat to the education system in Thailand posed by Prayuth, and you'll struggle to convince anyone it isn't a problem.

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