Envoy rejects US paper's attack on Thai government

[heybruce]

Strange that. 'private, for-profit newspaper' and you even wrote 'dumb newspaper' earlier in this thread.

Did you see the wiki page?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Washington_Post

Anyway, the WP editorial has

"There are hundreds of political prisoners, and a criminal prosecution of ousted prime minister Yingluck Shinawatra is underway."

Statements which cannot be backed by facts. Enough reason for an ambassador to refute. Surely not the first ambassador who feels the need to refute a newspaper article.

The main difference with the Guardian piece our dear diva mentioned is phrasing. The Brits (who also have defamation laws) are good at that. It's more 'open' with 'possibilities'. As such not rewarding to even try to explain.

The Thai envoy damaged his credibility by stating

"There are no political prisoners in Thailand" http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/thailand-is-fully-committed-to-democracy/2015/02/27/2878ac90-bd15-11e4-9dfb-03366e719af8_story.html

On the same day the OP was posted an OP on political prisoners in Thailand was also posted: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/804867-people-jailed-for-political-crimes-in-thailand-united/?hl=%2Bpolitical

The WP was in error in stating that Yingluck is currently being prosecuted, at this time criminal prosecution is only being considered: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/805633-nacc-to-consider-whether-to-file-lawsuit-against-yingluck/?hl=%2Byingluck. Of course after her removal from office by the courts and detention for attitude adjustment, it's easy to see how the WP might have been confused.

The WP editorial also stated "hundreds of political prisoners" without providing proof. A 'good' newspaper doesn't get confused that easily, especially in a "editorial article" which suggests a bit more research that some plain journalist articles on current events,

BTW regarding Prawat's statements in

www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/804867-people-jailed-for-political-crimes-in-thailand-united

which "political prisoners" is he talking about? A few charged with LM? A few red-shirts who committed crimes? Maybe even the odd PDRC guard with a bad temper? I see nothing political in having these people either without bail awaiting trial or sentenced and serving. Seems normal justice.

A good Thai envoy would support his statement that there are no political prisoners in Thailand by inviting outside organizations to investigate rumors of detention without charge and LM used for political purposes. Does Thailand allow that? If not, then Thailand and its envoys better get used to accusations on the subject of political prisoners. There have been some LM convictions, not reported in TV, which seem political in nature. And once a country has openly and unapologeticly used detention without charge, aka 'attitude adjustment', it will have hard time convincing others that the abuse is not ongoing.

[rubl]

So the Thai envoy was correct in protesting apart from doing his job of course.

And once again who cares what a common criminal, a fugitive from law says as long is he's not quoted in the philosophy which drives the policy for the Public School Education Program in Thailand.

BTW interesting where your quote of what I wrote goes into ...

""It would seem those hundreds are more like tens...""

"So the Thai envoy was correct in protesting apart from doing his job of course."

Once again rubl, you should proof-read before you post. Did you mean "correct in protesting and doing his job"? More important, are you aware that we can go back and check past posts?

The statement of mine that you objected to, in my post #148, was:

"...few people believe Pisan Manawapat's claim that there are no political prisoners in Thailand. That was the only substantive statement the Thai envoy made against the original Washington Post editorial, and it has no credibility."

In the very next post you wrote:

"Also the 'hundreds of political prisoners' AND "criminal charging of Ms. Yingluck" together suggests these are comparable aspects of the junta. It would seem those hundreds are more like tens and most in 'self-exile'..."

You attempted to minimize the political prisoner situation in Thailand, but you accepted that there are political prisoners. However shortly after that, post #157, you start with:

"So, you and others state the 'no credibility' but fail to substantiate."

I stated that the only substantial part of the Thai envoys statement was his claim there are no political prisoners in Thailand, you conceded there are political prisoners in Thailand, but then you challenged me to substantiate my claim that the envoy's statement had no credibility. Once the absurdity of this was explained to you, you became increasingly general in your defense of the envoy, culminating in your confusing statement above.

You also continue with your off-topic obsession with a three year old education policy paper that quotes a decades old statement from Thaksin, a quote that basically says education provides a means to escape poverty. You attempt to make this benign statement seem significant by never providing the quote and by insisting it is the basis of the education policy of the Ministry of Education. I know of no one else who shares this obsession of yours. Perhaps if you post it here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/804357-prayut-to-lead-super-board-on-education-system-reform/#39;super%20%20board, where it is tenuously on-topic, you will find a few sympathizers, but don't hope for many.

first of all let me express my sympathy with you. Tbthailand was somewhat insulting in the 'Red Shirts get Jail" topic writing "heybruce feeds him" and "some how heybruce manages to put up with him". Shameless, as if we do not have a meaningful discussion.

Now as for political prisoners, I wrote "it would seem". With your mastery in English you could realise that I only indicate that there are reasons why it might or might not be. So 'no credibility' regarding the envoy might be similar to 'no credibility' to the WP Editorial which started this by only stating "hundreds of political prisoners" without offering proof.

As for the off-topic education, forget it. Your ideological background seems to make you blind for the total absurdity of a Minister of Education quoting and naming a common criminal in the philosophy he bases his policy for the countries Educational Program for Schools on. BTW nice try to deflect with adding 'three year old' and 'decades old' as if that has any relation to three years ago as well as now a state of 'ordinary criminal running from justice'.

I'm not insulted, tbthailand underestimated my sense of humor, a useful quality when replying to you.

Regarding "It would seem", are you stating that it would seem there are no political prisoners in Thailand? That is the only way the Thai envoy's statement to that effect would have credibility.

Regarding your off-topic stuff, let me give you something very direct so you can challenge it directly: "Education provides a means to escape poverty" is not a philosophy, in the modern world it is a statement of the obvious. Your outrage is not over a philosophy provided by a criminal fugitive, it is over a statement of the obvious provided by a former PM convicted in the aftermath of a coup. You obsess over this, but most people don't. In fact you're the only person I know with this obsession.

I can understand your reluctance to post on http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/804357-prayut-to-lead-super-board-on-education-system-reform/#39;super%20%20board. That topic describes a very serious threat to the education system in Thailand posed by Prayuth, and you'll struggle to convince anyone it isn't a problem.

So, that leaves us with the WP editorial having no credibility.

As for education, forget it. You are simply unable to understand the absurdity of a Minister of Education starting his new policy with a philosophy which names and quotes a criminal. As if that's normal, as if his policy can benefit from said musings of a criminal.

The former PM's convicting was in the aftermath of a coup, general election and two Thaksin selected PMs, but that has nothing to do with his guild. Just deflecting again it would seem. Thaksin was too rich to need to be corrupt, but couldn't just leave (his) business alone. "First me and me and my family", then friends and if anything left the rest of the country? Nice philosophy. Surely you should recommend that to all other democratic nations.

[rubl]

A good Thai envoy would support his statement that there are no political prisoners in Thailand by inviting outside organizations to investigate rumors of detention without charge and LM used for political purposes. Does Thailand allow that? If not, then Thailand and its envoys better get used to accusations on the subject of political prisoners. There have been some LM convictions, not reported in TV, which seem political in nature. And once a country has openly and unapologeticly used detention without charge, aka 'attitude adjustment', it will have hard time convincing others that the abuse is not ongoing.

An Envoy might offer more support to his refute, but with the WP Editorial only stating "hundreds of political prisoners" and having a few more errors and Shinawatra bias I can understand he didn't.

It's a matter of perception as the USA Envoy to Thailand said in his Chula speech. Also money is a concern. Why go through ridiculous cost to try to convince those who do not want to be convinced or who are unlikely to want to change their opinion?

BTW did you know Thailand is still under Martial Law?

[heybruce]

"So the Thai envoy was correct in protesting apart from doing his job of course."

Once again rubl, you should proof-read before you post. Did you mean "correct in protesting and doing his job"? More important, are you aware that we can go back and check past posts?

The statement of mine that you objected to, in my post #148, was:

"...few people believe Pisan Manawapat's claim that there are no political prisoners in Thailand. That was the only substantive statement the Thai envoy made against the original Washington Post editorial, and it has no credibility."

In the very next post you wrote:

"Also the 'hundreds of political prisoners' AND "criminal charging of Ms. Yingluck" together suggests these are comparable aspects of the junta. It would seem those hundreds are more like tens and most in 'self-exile'..."

You attempted to minimize the political prisoner situation in Thailand, but you accepted that there are political prisoners. However shortly after that, post #157, you start with:

"So, you and others state the 'no credibility' but fail to substantiate."

I stated that the only substantial part of the Thai envoys statement was his claim there are no political prisoners in Thailand, you conceded there are political prisoners in Thailand, but then you challenged me to substantiate my claim that the envoy's statement had no credibility. Once the absurdity of this was explained to you, you became increasingly general in your defense of the envoy, culminating in your confusing statement above.

You also continue with your off-topic obsession with a three year old education policy paper that quotes a decades old statement from Thaksin, a quote that basically says education provides a means to escape poverty. You attempt to make this benign statement seem significant by never providing the quote and by insisting it is the basis of the education policy of the Ministry of Education. I know of no one else who shares this obsession of yours. Perhaps if you post it here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/804357-prayut-to-lead-super-board-on-education-system-reform/#39;super%20%20board, where it is tenuously on-topic, you will find a few sympathizers, but don't hope for many.

first of all let me express my sympathy with you. Tbthailand was somewhat insulting in the 'Red Shirts get Jail" topic writing "heybruce feeds him" and "some how heybruce manages to put up with him". Shameless, as if we do not have a meaningful discussion.

Now as for political prisoners, I wrote "it would seem". With your mastery in English you could realise that I only indicate that there are reasons why it might or might not be. So 'no credibility' regarding the envoy might be similar to 'no credibility' to the WP Editorial which started this by only stating "hundreds of political prisoners" without offering proof.

As for the off-topic education, forget it. Your ideological background seems to make you blind for the total absurdity of a Minister of Education quoting and naming a common criminal in the philosophy he bases his policy for the countries Educational Program for Schools on. BTW nice try to deflect with adding 'three year old' and 'decades old' as if that has any relation to three years ago as well as now a state of 'ordinary criminal running from justice'.

I'm not insulted, tbthailand underestimated my sense of humor, a useful quality when replying to you.

Regarding "It would seem", are you stating that it would seem there are no political prisoners in Thailand? That is the only way the Thai envoy's statement to that effect would have credibility.

Regarding your off-topic stuff, let me give you something very direct so you can challenge it directly: "Education provides a means to escape poverty" is not a philosophy, in the modern world it is a statement of the obvious. Your outrage is not over a philosophy provided by a criminal fugitive, it is over a statement of the obvious provided by a former PM convicted in the aftermath of a coup. You obsess over this, but most people don't. In fact you're the only person I know with this obsession.

I can understand your reluctance to post on http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/804357-prayut-to-lead-super-board-on-education-system-reform/#39;super%20%20board. That topic describes a very serious threat to the education system in Thailand posed by Prayuth, and you'll struggle to convince anyone it isn't a problem.

So, that leaves us with the WP editorial having no credibility.

As for education, forget it. You are simply unable to understand the absurdity of a Minister of Education starting his new policy with a philosophy which names and quotes a criminal. As if that's normal, as if his policy can benefit from said musings of a criminal.

The former PM's convicting was in the aftermath of a coup, general election and two Thaksin selected PMs, but that has nothing to do with his guild. Just deflecting again it would seem. Thaksin was too rich to need to be corrupt, but couldn't just leave (his) business alone. "First me and me and my family", then friends and if anything left the rest of the country? Nice philosophy. Surely you should recommend that to all other democratic nations.

"So, that leaves us with the WP editorial having no credibility."

Really? I explained why the Thai enoy's statement that there are no political prisoners in Thailand has no credibility. Care to explain why you think the entire WP editorial has no credibility? The first paragraph is:

"NINE MONTHS after staging a coup against a democratically elected government, Thailand’s military has little to show for it. The economy is stagnant, one of the worst performing in Asia. The national “reconciliation” the generals promised is nowhere to be seen: There are hundreds of political prisoners, and a criminal prosecution of ousted prime minister Yingluck Shinawatra is underway. Martial law remains in effect, making it illegal to hold any gathering without permission and crippling free expression." http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/thailands-ineffective-rule-by-force/2015/02/19/0c53b660-b863-11e4-a200-c008a01a6692_story.html

You quibble over the count of political prisoners and whether Yingluck is being prosecuted at the moment (the WP's link supports their claim), but I think the statements made are quite accurate.

Once again, a simple statement of the obvious, education provides a means out of poverty, is not a philosophy. Using this statement of the obvious outrages you because it comes from Thaksin, but it seems you are alone in this outrage.

Most people have more important things to be outraged about, such as education reform being led by a deeply superstitious coup leader with limited education and no respect for democracy. You have repeatedly stated that the Thai people need to be better educated before they are ready for democracy. Aren't you outraged by education reforms being led by a person of this description?

Feel free to express your outrage here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/804357-prayut-to-lead-super-board-on-education-system-reform/#39;super%20%20board. In fact let's move all the education discussion there, where it will be on-topic.

[metisdead]

A post replying to a previously removed post has been removed. This is not about Hitler, the Wiemar Republic, etc.

[rubl]

So, that leaves us with the WP editorial having no credibility.

As for education, forget it. You are simply unable to understand the absurdity of a Minister of Education starting his new policy with a philosophy which names and quotes a criminal. As if that's normal, as if his policy can benefit from said musings of a criminal.

The former PM's convicting was in the aftermath of a coup, general election and two Thaksin selected PMs, but that has nothing to do with his guild. Just deflecting again it would seem. Thaksin was too rich to need to be corrupt, but couldn't just leave (his) business alone. "First me and me and my family", then friends and if anything left the rest of the country? Nice philosophy. Surely you should recommend that to all other democratic nations.

"So, that leaves us with the WP editorial having no credibility."

Really? I explained why the Thai enoy's statement that there are no political prisoners in Thailand has no credibility. Care to explain why you think the entire WP editorial has no credibility? The first paragraph is:

"NINE MONTHS after staging a coup against a democratically elected government, Thailand’s military has little to show for it. The economy is stagnant, one of the worst performing in Asia. The national “reconciliation” the generals promised is nowhere to be seen: There are hundreds of political prisoners, and a criminal prosecution of ousted prime minister Yingluck Shinawatra is underway. Martial law remains in effect, making it illegal to hold any gathering without permission and crippling free expression." http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/thailands-ineffective-rule-by-force/2015/02/19/0c53b660-b863-11e4-a200-c008a01a6692_story.html

You quibble over the count of political prisoners and whether Yingluck is being prosecuted at the moment (the WP's link supports their claim), but I think the statements made are quite accurate.

Once again, a simple statement of the obvious, education provides a means out of poverty, is not a philosophy. Using this statement of the obvious outrages you because it comes from Thaksin, but it seems you are alone in this outrage.

Most people have more important things to be outraged about, such as education reform being led by a deeply superstitious coup leader with limited education and no respect for democracy. You have repeatedly stated that the Thai people need to be better educated before they are ready for democracy. Aren't you outraged by education reforms being led by a person of this description?

Feel free to express your outrage here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/804357-prayut-to-lead-super-board-on-education-system-reform/#39;super%20%20board. In fact let's move all the education discussion there, where it will be on-topic.

1. There was no democratically elected government, it was barely a remnant of a caretaker government which even had a leftover MoFA suggest the military raise Martial Law to have elections.

2. Some seem to confuse 'reconciliation' with 'letting criminals go'

3. hundreds of political prisoners but no proof

4. Ms. Yingluck not criminally prosecuted

5. 'hundreds of political prisoners AND Ms. Yingluck criminally prosecuted' suggest that the possible prosecution of Ms. Yingluck is incorrect and as bad as having political p[risoners whereas the two have no relation.

6. and so on.

Even for an editorial of such newspaper as the WP these points make the total article suspect, suggesting a certain bias.

As for education, you started that in #128

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/804866-envoy-rejects-us-papers-attack-on-thai-government/page-6#entry9139776

I was just peacefully putting a Robert A. Heinlein quote into the context it appeared in in his book "Stranger in a Strange Land". PM me if you're interested in a copy.

[heybruce]

So, that leaves us with the WP editorial having no credibility.

As for education, forget it. You are simply unable to understand the absurdity of a Minister of Education starting his new policy with a philosophy which names and quotes a criminal. As if that's normal, as if his policy can benefit from said musings of a criminal.

The former PM's convicting was in the aftermath of a coup, general election and two Thaksin selected PMs, but that has nothing to do with his guild. Just deflecting again it would seem. Thaksin was too rich to need to be corrupt, but couldn't just leave (his) business alone. "First me and me and my family", then friends and if anything left the rest of the country? Nice philosophy. Surely you should recommend that to all other democratic nations.

"So, that leaves us with the WP editorial having no credibility."

Really? I explained why the Thai enoy's statement that there are no political prisoners in Thailand has no credibility. Care to explain why you think the entire WP editorial has no credibility? The first paragraph is:

"NINE MONTHS after staging a coup against a democratically elected government, Thailand’s military has little to show for it. The economy is stagnant, one of the worst performing in Asia. The national “reconciliation” the generals promised is nowhere to be seen: There are hundreds of political prisoners, and a criminal prosecution of ousted prime minister Yingluck Shinawatra is underway. Martial law remains in effect, making it illegal to hold any gathering without permission and crippling free expression." http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/thailands-ineffective-rule-by-force/2015/02/19/0c53b660-b863-11e4-a200-c008a01a6692_story.html

You quibble over the count of political prisoners and whether Yingluck is being prosecuted at the moment (the WP's link supports their claim), but I think the statements made are quite accurate.

Once again, a simple statement of the obvious, education provides a means out of poverty, is not a philosophy. Using this statement of the obvious outrages you because it comes from Thaksin, but it seems you are alone in this outrage.

Most people have more important things to be outraged about, such as education reform being led by a deeply superstitious coup leader with limited education and no respect for democracy. You have repeatedly stated that the Thai people need to be better educated before they are ready for democracy. Aren't you outraged by education reforms being led by a person of this description?

Feel free to express your outrage here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/804357-prayut-to-lead-super-board-on-education-system-reform/#39;super%20%20board. In fact let's move all the education discussion there, where it will be on-topic.

1. There was no democratically elected government, it was barely a remnant of a caretaker government which even had a leftover MoFA suggest the military raise Martial Law to have elections.

2. Some seem to confuse 'reconciliation' with 'letting criminals go'

3. hundreds of political prisoners but no proof

4. Ms. Yingluck not criminally prosecuted

5. 'hundreds of political prisoners AND Ms. Yingluck criminally prosecuted' suggest that the possible prosecution of Ms. Yingluck is incorrect and as bad as having political p[risoners whereas the two have no relation.

6. and so on.

Even for an editorial of such newspaper as the WP these points make the total article suspect, suggesting a certain bias.

As for education, you started that in #128

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/804866-envoy-rejects-us-papers-attack-on-thai-government/page-6#entry9139776

I was just peacefully putting a Robert A. Heinlein quote into the context it appeared in in his book "Stranger in a Strange Land". PM me if you're interested in a copy.

1. The PTP, the party that won the election, was still in charge of the government.

2. Some people confuse 'granted themselves amnesty' with 'didn't commit treason'.

3. A military government that isn't going to allow anyone to check and see how many political prisoners there are in Thailand.

4. http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/02/18/world/asia/ap-as-thailand-politics.html?_r=0

5. See 3 and 4.

6. and you go on and on and on and keep posting the same stuff.

I'm not a fan of the Washington Post, but I think they got this one largely correct and published an editorial that could not be published in Thailand under current censorship.

Regarding education, halloween had posted that the voters were too ignorant or greedy to vote in the best interests of the nation. I responded with:

"And Prayuth, with his limited education, strictly military work experience, superstitions and authoritarian inclinations, is hardly a credible leader to bring about the educated population you think democracy requires."

I stand by those words.

Finally, I read "Stranger in a Strange Land" many years ago. And from the quote you chose:

"Nor am I opposed to 'turning the rascals out'-it's usually the soundest rule of politics. But it's well to take a look at what new rascals you are going to get before you jump at any chance to turn your present rascals out."

I don't like the rascals currently in charge, nor the way they took power.

Edited March 8, 2015 by heybruce

[djjamie]

Why is democracy ALWAYS assumed to be the BEST form of government....?

Germany 1933 - a democracy that allowed Hitler to come to power. Millions died.

USA 2003 - a democracy that allowed George W. Bush to start a war over false claims. Hundreds of thousands died.

Your knowledge of democracy and history is lacking.

I may not agree with him, yet he stated facts and you can not only not reciprocate you offer a simply rebuttal that does not move the subject forward...

Come on…Give some "meat" to the conversation...

Edited March 8, 2015 by djjamie

[Jai Dee]

A personal attack (flame) on another member has been removed from this topic.

Discuss the subject, not each other.

[rubl]

1. There was no democratically elected government, it was barely a remnant of a caretaker government which even had a leftover MoFA suggest the military raise Martial Law to have elections.

2. Some seem to confuse 'reconciliation' with 'letting criminals go'

3. hundreds of political prisoners but no proof

4. Ms. Yingluck not criminally prosecuted

5. 'hundreds of political prisoners AND Ms. Yingluck criminally prosecuted' suggest that the possible prosecution of Ms. Yingluck is incorrect and as bad as having political p[risoners whereas the two have no relation.

6. and so on.

Even for an editorial of such newspaper as the WP these points make the total article suspect, suggesting a certain bias.

As for education, you started that in #128

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/804866-envoy-rejects-us-papers-attack-on-thai-government/page-6#entry9139776

I was just peacefully putting a Robert A. Heinlein quote into the context it appeared in in his book "Stranger in a Strange Land". PM me if you're interested in a copy.

1. The PTP, the party that won the election, was still in charge of the government.

2. Some people confuse 'granted themselves amnesty' with 'didn't commit treason'.

3. A military government that isn't going to allow anyone to check and see how many political prisoners there are in Thailand.

4. http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/02/18/world/asia/ap-as-thailand-politics.html?_r=0

5. See 3 and 4.

6. and you go on and on and on and keep posting the same stuff.

I'm not a fan of the Washington Post, but I think they got this one largely correct and published an editorial that could not be published in Thailand under current censorship.

Regarding education, halloween had posted that the voters were too ignorant or greedy to vote in the best interests of the nation. I responded with:

"And Prayuth, with his limited education, strictly military work experience, superstitions and authoritarian inclinations, is hardly a credible leader to bring about the educated population you think democracy requires."

I stand by those words.

Finally, I read "Stranger in a Strange Land" many years ago. And from the quote you chose:

"Nor am I opposed to 'turning the rascals out'-it's usually the soundest rule of politics. But it's well to take a look at what new rascals you are going to get before you jump at any chance to turn your present rascals out."

I don't like the rascals currently in charge, nor the way they took power.

My opinion is the WP Editorial contains errors and shows a bias in favour of the Shinawatras and against the current Thai government. Your opinion is different. So be it.

BTW I didn't chose the Heinlein quote, Alwyn did. I only provided the complete paragraph the quote appeared in and the name of the book.