Coroner Declares Sisters Found Dead in Thailand Died of Pesticide

[falangjim]

Thailand: Land of Inculpable

[Briggsy]

Tragic story but the Thai coroners finding of poisoning by DEET may still be correct. Even though DEET is not supposed to be lethal if used properly, it has been

known to be mixed in to party drinks to cause some kind of high. It may be that DEET was ingested directly in small quantities, and these particular girls had a very adverse

reaction to it.

I think we can assume you have not read the coroner's findings. They explicitly rule out DEET poisoning along with a detailed explanation. They had to do this as this was the erroneous finding (excuse / speculation / whitewash ) of the Thai Forensic Science Dept.

Please familiarise yourself with the Canadian coroner's findings before spreading incorrect conjecture.

@ Briggsy,

I think you've misinterpreted Nobrainer's post. The coroner said that he didn't think DEET was to blame since when used correctly to kill insects, it's not considered to be toxic. Absolutely correct.

However, what the coroner failed to take into account was the use of DEET as an ingredient in Thai cocktails i.e. the type sold in buckets: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-sisters-died-in-thailand-from-drinking-deet-1.1153094

So in effect, the Thai authorities would be correct in their assumption that DEET poisoning was the cause as Nobrainer correctly pointed out.

The organ and tissue findings and the amount of DEET were entirely inconsistent with DEET poisoning and entirely consistent with use as a mosquito repellent used on the skin.

"So in effect", the Thai authorities would be utterly and totally wrong in their assumption or even deliberate falsehood in giving DEET poisoning as the cause of death as laid out in the Canadian report.

[jamstock]

I must be hallucinating:

"Interestingly, phosphine was not found in either of the women’s blood or organs"

So how did they die from it???

[Briggsy]

I must be hallucinating:

"Interestingly, phosphine was not found in either of the women’s blood or organs"

So how did they die from it???

The quote you are referring to appears in a Thai summary of the report which cherrypicks and seeks to distort the conclusions of the report in order to deflect any blame from the Thai government or the owners of the hotel who instigated the unsafe room fumigation.

Please refer to the original report for an objective set of findings.

[Tomtomtom69]

Its pretty clear that the hotel used the insecticide. Just sue the hotel that's it

Yes but wouldn't work in Thailand.

Koh Phi-Phi is a fiefdom. The owners of the hotel are protected and very rich and would get the full support of the local police and the Forensic Science Dept.

The court would take many years to reach a final decision and then claim the evidence was insufficient.

There would be a much better chance in the other deaths on Koh Phi-Phi of the Norwegian girl and the American girl since the owner is a family and less powerful. But the Canadian sisters died in a hotel and the owners are much richer. There is no chance there. The Downtown Inn is another case. More people died there and the police statements were disgraceful.

The best way forward is to name and shame Thailand specifically stating the substance, the suppliers, the hotels using it. This will change behaviour in the future but there will be no compensation or admission of guilt for previous deaths from Thai authorities, hotel owners or anyone involved in the supply of this very dangerous pesticide.

Since hearing about this incident and the other one that occurred in Nha Trang, Vietnam back in 2012 I have taken precautions when I stay in certain hotels. I specifically ask the hotels if they use bug spray or any kind of insecticide. Normally the most they use would be household bug spray to control mosquitoes, which I've been shown before, and is OK. I asked about bed bug sprays and the answer was no. I also tell hotels I don't want bed bug sprays or insecticide used or I won't stay. Luckily, apparently that has never been the case anyway and my fluent Thai means there are no communication problems here in Thailand or Laos, while in Cambodia, Myanmar etc. they tend to speak good enough English to be able to understand my queries too. I won't ask every hotel as only some appear to be problematic. I also don't stay in the cheapest dumps most likely to use such methods of controlling bed bugs, and I always use air-conditioning or keep my window open (if I'm somewhere where it's too cold to use air-conditioning).

However, unfortunately, it's not only the cheapest places that use insecticide to control pests:

I stayed in one hotel in Dalat, Vietnam last year, one of the most highly rated places in town on Agoda and of 3 star standard. In the morning, about an hour before I checked out the whole garden area was sprayed with insecticide, apparently to drive away mosquitoes and other insects. It stunk, but I tried not to breathe it and finished my work on my computer and checked out as quickly as I could. I was shocked and will therefore never again stay in "resort" style accommodation in that area again, only hotels without gardens as I'm sure that hotel isn't the only one to use this method of controlling insects, which I find extremely unnecessary, especially considering the lack of insect borne diseases at that altitude. Dalat is after all located at 1500m above sea level. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think malaria or dengue fever would be big problems at that altitude with the temperate climate the city is used to.

[Tomtomtom69]

A pesticide (bugspray or agric. pesticides) in the wrong hands can kill.

And it is freely available over the counter.

The labels on bottles or containers are quite clear and explicit about the use of the poison.

How many, using the stuff, are reading the labels? And that is if they are able to read them.

Are the maids well instructed by their managers?

In many average hotels there are not even managers. It usually is the senior receptionist.

Thailand is in urgent need of a hotelschool.

I will offer my services.

"I will offer my services."

Good luck

Don't you know, they know everything and can do everything better than any farang?

They don't need you

There are plenty of foreigners managing hotels in Thailand. Interestingly, a small number of hotels even have non-Thai front staff, such as Filipinos and Indians, but not many. But of course small hotels won't hire a foreigner, so your statement probably applies best to those hotels, not the big ones with foreign GMs or westerners who have opened B&Bs or guesthouses with their Thai partners.

[Thai at Heart]

Phosphine is a confined space gas, not a sprayed pesticide. It lingers after use for several days and must be vented correctly.

If they are using it in public buildings it is a complete misuse, because aside from anything it will corrode copper fitting in electricals causing potential fires.

[Tomtomtom69]

This is not a normal pesticide. It is only usually available for use by licenced firms and even they may have difficulty obtaining it. Everything about this case points to unlicenced, dangerous pesticides being sourced on the black market and illegally used and then followed by a rush to let the rooms out before the necessary ventilation carried out and ventilation period had passed.

What I'm wondering is why any hotel would even resort to such extreme measures as using banned pesticides to control such a minor problem like bed bugs? So what's the big deal with a few bed bugs anyway? They won't kill you! Unlike using pesticides, which will kill you.

I've heard that the best treatment for bed bugs is to replace the bedding. So new beds should have been purchased not pesticide used. What an absurd and extreme "solution" to a "problem" that creates a much bigger problem than has ever existed in the first place.

I have no problems with a few bed bugs or mosquitoes or whatever. Let them be and let them live. It's a Buddhist country after all and Buddhists aren't supposed to kill animals, not even bugs, or at least that's what I've learned about Buddhism?!

[Thai at Heart]

This is not a normal pesticide. It is only usually available for use by licenced firms and even they may have difficulty obtaining it. Everything about this case points to unlicenced, dangerous pesticides being sourced on the black market and illegally used and then followed by a rush to let the rooms out before the necessary ventilation carried out and ventilation period had passed.

What I'm wondering is why any hotel would even resort to such extreme measures as using banned pesticides to control such a minor problem like bed bugs? So what's the big deal with a few bed bugs anyway? They won't kill you! Unlike using pesticides, which will kill you.

I've heard that the best treatment for bed bugs is to replace the bedding. So new beds should have been purchased not pesticide used. What an absurd and extreme "solution" to a "problem" that creates a much bigger problem than has ever existed in the first place.

I have no problems with a few bed bugs or mosquitoes or whatever. Let them be and let them live. It's a Buddhist country after all and Buddhists aren't supposed to kill animals, not even bugs, or at least that's what I've learned about Buddhism?!

The hotel probably had no idea. The pest control company offered the service, the hotel managememt not knowing what they were going to do. What do you think they put under the foundation of your house for termistes?

Same stuff. If you get your house treated, move out for at least 2 days.

[Briggsy]

Tomtomtom69, Google bed bugs and hotels. You will see this is not a minor problem. Bed bugs are very difficult to eradicate and can temporarily close down a (responsible) hotel.

As ever in Thailand, the short cut is taken. i.e. Use the most lethal insecticides possible but don't follow the instructions (in particular with regards to ventilation of toxic fumes and shutting the room for the ventilation period) but instead rush to re-open the room to guests who then suffer a terrible death.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Briggsy

[Oziex1]

Its pretty clear that the hotel used the insecticide. Just sue the hotel that's it

Using Thai lawyers, good luck.

[ronz28]

Methyl Bromide used to fumigate a condo in St. John appears to have nearly killed a family on vacation staying in the unit near the one fumigated. Two sons are still in coma, hope they make it.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/04/us/virgin-islands-resort-pesticide/

[willyumiii]

This tragedy happened in 2012.

What possible excuse is there for taking three years to come to such a conclusion?

And the conclusion is rather suspect as well.

There is obviously misinformation in this article.

"Canadian reports disagree with the conclusion as DEET is not toxic or deadly when applied correctly to kill insects".

DEET is not an insecticide used to kill insects. It is a repellant, used to keep them away.

If they got this simple fact wrong, what else is wrong with their information?

Bad science,

Bad journalism,

Bad news!

[willyumiii]

"It’s also against the law in Thailand to use phosphine in hotel rooms"

yes, it is illegal

i'm sure there are still farmers out here using DDT

DDT is still in use legally around the world.

USA banned the use of DDT decades ago.

But, the U.S. still manufactures DDT and sells it to other countries, like Mexico who use it on produce they sell in the USA.

Isn't that interesting?

[SABloke]

Its pretty clear that the hotel used the insecticide. Just sue the hotel that's it

I'm glad you're not a judge in real life: Lawyer: ''Well, Your Honour, since my client suffered illness whilst staying at Hotel X, Hotel X is liable.''

Judge Realenglish: ''Seems clear to me...GUILTY!''

Edited April 7, 2015 by SABloke

[toybits]

And it took them a mere 3 years to come to this conclusion. BRAVO!!

[katana]

The actual fumigant is aluminium phosphide (AlP) which is a solid, sold in pellet form and kept in airtight, sealed containers.
On exposure to moisture in the air, it hydrolyses and produces the toxic gas phospine (PH3), which permeates the room, is denser than air, so pools in low lying areas, and kills living things.
AlP + 3 H2O ---> Al(OH)3 + PH3

[gk10002000]

See the news about the recent USA family that was exposed to pesticide in the US Virgin Islands. methyl bromide is the suspected culprit at the moment. So of course the toxicology report on the Canadian girls is a key. Did the Thais or others do a wide enough broad spectrum search for chemicals?

[halloween]

Tragic story but the Thai coroners finding of poisoning by DEET may still be correct. Even though DEET is not supposed to be lethal if used properly, it has been

known to be mixed in to party drinks to cause some kind of high. It may be that DEET was ingested directly in small quantities, and these particular girls had a very adverse

reaction to it.

I think we can assume you have not read the coroner's findings. They explicitly rule out DEET poisoning along with a detailed explanation. They had to do this as this was the erroneous finding (excuse / speculation / whitewash ) of the Thai Forensic Science Dept.

Please familiarise yourself with the Canadian coroner's findings before spreading incorrect conjecture.

"Canadian reports disagree with the conclusion as DEET is not toxic or deadly when applied correctly to kill insects."

Did they consider that someone might be stupid enough to consume it?

[ronz28]

Methyl Bromide is used in US non-organic agriculture, etc. http://abcnews.go.com/Health/poisoned-paradise-pesticide-methyl-bromide/story?id=30119220

Long term effects may kill if one survives the original exposure.

http://www.aol.co.uk/video/survivor-describes-impact-of-methyl-bromide-poisoning/518753070/

With several inadequately explained cases like this topic, I wonder if Methyl Bromide is used much in Thailand?

[mikemac]

A pesticide (bugspray or agric. pesticides) in the wrong hands can kill.

And it is freely available over the counter.

The labels on bottles or containers are quite clear and explicit about the use of the poison.

How many, using the stuff, are reading the labels? And that is if they are able to read them.

Are the maids well instructed by their managers?

In many average hotels there are not even managers. It usually is the senior receptionist.

Thailand is in urgent need of a hotelschool.

I will offer my services.

"I will offer my services."

Good luck

Don't you know, they know everything and can do everything better than any farang?

They don't need you

If they do refuse his services perhaps he can offer them to the U.S. Virgin Islands, as they have had a similar incident recently, with a Delaware family becoming seriously ill after a vacation there -

http://www.aol.com/article/2015/04/06/family-seriously-ill-after-possible-pesticide-poisoning-at-carib/21161686/

Seems a banned pesticide was used as well -

"Investigators believe the toxic pesticide ethyl bromide is to blame. The pesticide was banned for indoor residential use in the U.S. more than 30 years ago."

Scary thing is this was not some cheap-Charlie hotel but an upmarket resort.

Regardless, there is no excuse, in any country, to be using dangerous chemicals in places that are used by people, like hotels, resorts, restaurants etc.

Cannot believe I spent all those nights in cheap dives traveling through Tibet, Nepal, China, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam etc and came out of it unscathed.

[jamesjohnsonthird]

Isn't this the same stuff that repeatedly killed those tourists in Chaing Mai?

Big coverup by that hotel owner. Former Mayor or something I recall.