Another boring thread about backups.

[NeverSure]

Backups. May I talk about backups?

A member is in trouble and may have problems getting backups...

It's important to have an image made from when the computer is running well and before anything is installed that could change it. That means a solid image on its own partition which gets updated only rarely when all is good for a long time.

It's important to also have newer images on another partition to try first if the system fails. Most versions of Win 7 and 8 can make an image natively.

It's important to also have file backups for, if nothing else, to update an image to the latest files. I use Cobian Backup (free) because it runs on a schedule every night, uses the Volume Shadow Copy Service to take a snapshot of the drive(s) before starting the backup, and will save the number of backups it's told to save.

The backups can be seen with Windows Explorer as any other folder so that just one file can be dragged and dropped for replacement.

It also has the ability to not backup some folders, or to backup some folders, as you specify. Periodically I rename a backup so it won't get deleted by the proggy.

Be aware that Windows won't then delete that folder because file names are too long. It can be deleted by Cobian somehow, so I have to rename it again to what Cobian will delete.

Many pros rename files or folders by putting BAK (backup) in front of them such as:

Cobian 2015-03-12 01;27;58

Becomes

BAKCobian 2015-03-12 01;27;58

Cheers

Edited March 12, 2015 by NeverSure

[KittenKong]

Yes, you can never have too many backups of your data. Personally I dont worry too much about imaging the entire drive as it is quite easy (and usually quite beneficial) to completely reinstall Windows and your programmes, as long as you have all your installation media and backups of your data.

Cobian also gets my recommendation.

[NeverSure]

It takes me the better part of a day to install Windows, drivers, other proggies like photoshop, download, install and configure Cobian, install Office, browser, configure which proggies I want to pin to startup...

I have to run windows update and the DVD for 8.1 is getting older now and there are lots of updates to get for that, Office, and Defender (or another AV.)

For the next couple of weeks I still think of something I need to do as I work along.

I used to have to reinstall Windows when it got corrupted but my images included Office, drivers, other programs etc. I make and keep an image about 2 weeks after I install and prove stability and I'd go back to that if I had to completely wipe. I haven't needed to wipe and reinstall since Win 7 because it and 8 are so much more stable. I'm concerned about complete hdd failure or even theft of my computer so I always have images stashed away.

I can image a new HDD in about 20 minutes...

Cheers.

[lostinisaan]

It takes me the better part of a day to install Windows, drivers, other proggies like photoshop, download, install and configure Cobian, install Office, browser, configure which proggies I want to pin to startup...

I have to run windows update and the DVD for 8.1 is getting older now and there are lots of updates to get for that, Office, and Defender (or another AV.)

For the next couple of weeks I still think of something I need to do as I work along.

I used to have to reinstall Windows when it got corrupted but my images included Office, drivers, other programs etc. I make and keep an image about 2 weeks after I install and prove stability and I'd go back to that if I had to completely wipe. I haven't needed to wipe and reinstall since Win 7 because it and 8 are so much more stable. I'm concerned about complete hdd failure or even theft of my computer so I always have images stashed away.

I can image a new HDD in about 20 minutes...

Cheers.

Tanks for sharing your knowledge. -

[Xircal]

I create a system image using Windows 8.1 after every Patch Tuesday. It only takes 10 minutes using the File History menu via Control Panel (see screenshot).

I've only ever had to use it once to re-image the machine which was about eight months ago. I was a bit apprehensive at the time since I'd only ever reinstalled the OS back in Windows XP days when I used to build my own computers. But it went like a dream and only took around 15 minutes to reformat and reinstall all the drivers, OS and all the software I installed together with all the files I created.

A tip for anybody doing it the same way and that is to rename the existing image on your external hard drive and then create a new one with the File History menu. This is by far the fastest method of creating the image. If you choose to overwrite the existing image with a new one, it can take about an hour to create during which time you can't use the machine.

Also, doing it that way, you have an additional image file in case the new one fails for any reason.

[NeverSure]

I like it.

I can make the image and use the computer at the same time because the image utility uses the volume shadow copy service (VSS). Did I miss something?

People shouldn't forget to make a rescue disk to boot to, to run the imaging if there's a disaster. Can you download that rescue disk from MS still, or do you have to make it? I've had mine for both Win 7 and 8 for a while and I "think" they are specific to 32 or 64 bit systems?

I guess MS likes the File History deal, but I wish they'd left the scheduler as in win 7 where it could run at night by itself. I'm not real sharp on the newer stuff. Did I miss something?

Cheers

[Xircal]

I like it.

I can make the image and use the computer at the same time because the image utility uses the volume shadow copy service (VSS). Did I miss something?

People shouldn't forget to make a rescue disk to boot to, to run the imaging if there's a disaster. Can you download that rescue disk from MS still, or do you have to make it? I've had mine for both Win 7 and 8 for a while and I "think" they are specific to 32 or 64 bit systems?

I guess MS likes the File History deal, but I wish they'd left the scheduler as in win 7 where it could run at night by itself. I'm not real sharp on the newer stuff. Did I miss something?

Cheers

The OS is having to compare existing files with the new ones to determine what has changed if you're overwriting an existing image and I don't think it's a good idea to interfere with that process.

As for the rescue disk, I have an Acer laptop which has the option to create a factory default backup which I've done, but I hope I'll never have to use that since it will reinstall Windows 8. That would mean having to reinstall 8.1 all over again although it now includes the Update 1 update.

However, it is necessary to do it that way should the HD have to be replaced since the backup contains the OEM validation code. But you probably know that already.

I never liked Windows 7 and it's ugly Start menu though. And now they're bringing it back in Win 10! Urgh....

[NeverSure]

OK, in that pic you showed above of control panel> file history, right above your red arrow is a "recovery" link. That should bring up the option of making a bootable rescue disc for your current OS.

Making a snapshot of the current disk files and folders is what VSS does before the backup image starts. That's the significant delay before the progress bar begins. I wouldn't worry about using the computer while Windows makes the image. The image is taken before the writing to disc starts.

Validation. Did your box have win 8 and you installed win 7 over it ???? or ??? If you make an image of your HDD make sure it images all partitions including the rescue partition in case you ever sell it and want to zero it. ?? Otherwise the image captures current validation and everything. You get back exactly what's there now.

[rakman]

I like it.

I can make the image and use the computer at the same time because the image utility uses the volume shadow copy service (VSS). Did I miss something?

People shouldn't forget to make a rescue disk to boot to, to run the imaging if there's a disaster. Can you download that rescue disk from MS still, or do you have to make it? I've had mine for both Win 7 and 8 for a while and I "think" they are specific to 32 or 64 bit systems?

I guess MS likes the File History deal, but I wish they'd left the scheduler as in win 7 where it could run at night by itself. I'm not real sharp on the newer stuff. Did I miss something?

Cheers

VSS is a good process, but if you open a file after the VSS snapshot is run, the backup may see the file as open. It usually is a timing thing, we've seen outlook pst files not being able to be backed up since Outlook was started after the VSS process ran. Most of the time it works well, but make sure you have enough room on the VSS configuration to snapshot the disk or it will fail, and it isn't as easy on Win 7 to find out why.

[CaptHaddock]

There are many ways to skin a cat. I take a different approach to manage the risk of losing data/installation with Windows. I run Windows as a virtual machine in Vmware Workstation running on a Fedora linux installation. That means that my Windows vm is just a bunch of linux files. So, I can use linux tools to back them up, all of which are free. The one I use is rdiff-backup which makes and maintains an up-to-date copy (on an external drive in this case.) Since the copy itself is another vm I can verify it by just mounting and running the vm. Or restore a single file that way. In addition, rdiff-backup maintains negative differentials for whatever period you specify, 30 days in my case. Negative differentials take little space and enable point-in-time restores for the specified period. These are cold backups because rdiff-backup doesn't know anything about keeping Windows' internal states consistent. That wouldn't be useful for a production server, but for home use not a problem.

In addition, Vmware Workstation enables snapshots which I use extensively. Whenever I do any operation that is the least bit risky, like installing new software or doing updates, I take a cold snapshot that allows me to revert to the known good state quickly and reliably without leaving any detritus from the problem-causing software. This ability has proved invaluable many times. For example, I tried a test install of vpn software on my Windows vm for use with a US financial institution. The vpn client created a network device which looks like new hardware causing Windows 7 to announce that I now had to reregister the product code. For complex reasons I would not be able to reregister that product code, although it was genuine. So, this would have been a headache had it been a native installation. Fortunately, I just reverted to my pre-vpn snapshot in minutes and the problem went away. The vpn client runs happily on the router.

In addition to making the odious, but inescapable, Windows easy to manage, running on Vmware enables me to isolate normal browsing, with its inherent threats, to "dirty" linux vms thereby keeping my critical data relatively safe on the Windows vm. On the Windows vm the only browsing I do is to trustworthy financial institutions for which I have accounts. No browsing ever from the underlying fedora installation.

If I had more upload bandwidth the rdiff-backup backups of the critical Windows vm would be encrypted offsite. As it is, I use the Windows backup software duplicati to encrypt and backup to cloud sites daily differentials of only the essential financial data from the Windows vm, but never sensitive data like password managers. I don't trust encryption that much.

The only real limitation to running Windows as a vm is that you can't run programs like Photoshop or Lightroom for which you do need a native Windows installation.

On the whole, this approach is far too complex to recommend to the average user, but with adequate linux experience there's nothing difficult about it. Linux is a lot easier to manage than windows: no licensing, no registration, no registry. When it's time for a new fedora release, just do a fresh install which does not touch my vm files and done. No reinstallation of software.

[Naam]

my PC has four drives (not partitions!). the C: drive is cloned each and every evening on a different drive. should "C:" have any specific problems i am up and running again in less than 60 seconds by shutting down, new start and select different starting drive in BIOS.

[steve187]

my PC has four drives (not partitions!). the C: drive is cloned each and every evening on a different drive. should "C:" have any specific problems i am up and running again in less than 60 seconds by shutting down, new start and select different starting drive in BIOS.

is that done manually, what program do you use.

i would always after a fresh install and all programs and updates completed to do a clone.

[IMHO]

my PC has four drives (not partitions!)

Noooooo!!! make it die!

Edited March 15, 2015 by IMHO

[NeverSure]

However, it is necessary to do it that way should the HD have to be replaced since the backup contains the OEM validation code. But you probably know that already.

I'm missing something here. I have a laptop with a restore partition which if used, would set it all back to factory.

But the images I make to an external would also be validated. If I dumped my backup image onto a new HD it would be validated unless the new HD changed the SSID enough that update balked and then I'd have to contact Microsoft. I've never had to do that but the OS is licensed for just this computer and too many changes might trigger some questions.

Everything you have now is validated so I'm missing something about using a current image.

[IMHO]

However, it is necessary to do it that way should the HD have to be replaced since the backup contains the OEM validation code. But you probably know that already.

I'm missing something here. I have a laptop with a restore partition which if used, would set it all back to factory.

Now you're confusing us all, don't you mean you have a restore disk - or is it not a disk yet because it hasn't been assigned a drive letter?

[rhythmworx]

Partitions?

When a drive fails so do all logical partitions on that drive.

Physical drives are for backups or your/he is just wasting space on the said drive.

[SoiBiker]

I prefer the 'set it and forget it' approach. Time machine for the Macs, rsnapshot for everything else. Incremental backups running throughout the day. Anything older than an hour or two is safe, and I can go back a few months if necessary. It just works with no intervention from me - life's too short to spend it copying data.

[CaptHaddock]

I prefer the 'set it and forget it' approach. Time machine for the Macs, rsnapshot for everything else. Incremental backups running throughout the day. Anything older than an hour or two is safe, and I can go back a few months if necessary. It just works with no intervention from me - life's too short to spend it copying data.

Time machine doesn't give you a bootable device, does it? So, when your hard disk dies you have to rebuild it, don't you? diskdupe is free and gives a bootable drive. Doesn't store multiple versions of files though.

[manarak]

my PC has four drives (not partitions!). the C: drive is cloned each and every evening on a different drive. should "C:" have any specific problems i am up and running again in less than 60 seconds by shutting down, new start and select different starting drive in BIOS.

Any reason why you don't simply use RAID with 2 drives and then clone the RAID ?

[SoiBiker]

I prefer the 'set it and forget it' approach. Time machine for the Macs, rsnapshot for everything else. Incremental backups running throughout the day. Anything older than an hour or two is safe, and I can go back a few months if necessary. It just works with no intervention from me - life's too short to spend it copying data.

Time machine doesn't give you a bootable device, does it? So, when your hard disk dies you have to rebuild it, don't you? diskdupe is free and gives a bootable drive. Doesn't store multiple versions of files though.

If the hard drive dies, you fit a new one, install OSX, then restore from time machine and everything is back exactly as it was. Easy.

[NeverSure]

Partitions?

When a drive fails so do all logical partitions on that drive.

Physical drives are for backups or your/he is just wasting space on the said drive.

An image can capture all of the partitions, drives and data on a disk because it's software, LOL. If you then need to dump that back onto a new HD, the HD is apt to be bigger because that's what we do - upgrade. So the image won't take up all of the room on the disk and it would be prudent to go into disk manager and expand the size of one or more partitions which is easy.

We assume the image was made while the HD was good so everything will be there.

[CaptHaddock]

I prefer the 'set it and forget it' approach. Time machine for the Macs, rsnapshot for everything else. Incremental backups running throughout the day. Anything older than an hour or two is safe, and I can go back a few months if necessary. It just works with no intervention from me - life's too short to spend it copying data.

Time machine doesn't give you a bootable device, does it? So, when your hard disk dies you have to rebuild it, don't you? diskdupe is free and gives a bootable drive. Doesn't store multiple versions of files though.

If the hard drive dies, you fit a new one, install OSX, then restore from time machine and everything is back exactly as it was. Easy.

I understand how to do a rebuild. It just seems unnecessary when you can create a bootable image instead.

[SoiBiker]

I prefer the 'set it and forget it' approach. Time machine for the Macs, rsnapshot for everything else. Incremental backups running throughout the day. Anything older than an hour or two is safe, and I can go back a few months if necessary. It just works with no intervention from me - life's too short to spend it copying data.

Time machine doesn't give you a bootable device, does it? So, when your hard disk dies you have to rebuild it, don't you? diskdupe is free and gives a bootable drive. Doesn't store multiple versions of files though.

If the hard drive dies, you fit a new one, install OSX, then restore from time machine and everything is back exactly as it was. Easy.

I understand how to do a rebuild. It just seems unnecessary when you can create a bootable image instead.

I guess the arduous two-stage process might get a bit tiresome if your hard drive died every day. But mine tend to last a little longer than that, so I'm happy with it.

[CaptHaddock]

What's tiresome is to take 2.5 hours to download Yosemite plus another 30 min. or so to install it and maybe apply later patches. Probably I could find the Yosemite download on the backup, if it is still there after the install, put it on something, a thumb drive maybe, and install it from there before doing the restore and then the patches.

Or I could boot up my bootable external drive and have everything immediately with zero work. I guess I am just lazy.

[NeverSure]

Recovering with an image made with the Windows utility is easy. Everyone needs to burn a recovery CD which is good for a lot of things including dumping the image onto a new disk.

In control panel right above where you click to make an image there's a link called recovery which walks right through burning the recovery disk. It's easy.

The recovery disk is bootable and has a lot of options including the command prompt and utilities. I'll show a screenshot of it. This is what you boot to, to dump the image onto a new disk.

Edited March 15, 2015 by NeverSure

[SoiBiker]

What's tiresome is to take 2.5 hours to download Yosemite plus another 30 min. or so to install it and maybe apply later patches. Probably I could find the Yosemite download on the backup, if it is still there after the install, put it on something, a thumb drive maybe, and install it from there before doing the restore and then the patches.

Or I could boot up my bootable external drive and have everything immediately with zero work. I guess I am just lazy.

It's hardly something I have to do on a regular basis, so I'm happy with the method.

I'm sure you think your way of doing things is better, but mine suits me just fine.

[CaptHaddock]

What's tiresome is to take 2.5 hours to download Yosemite plus another 30 min. or so to install it and maybe apply later patches. Probably I could find the Yosemite download on the backup, if it is still there after the install, put it on something, a thumb drive maybe, and install it from there before doing the restore and then the patches.

Or I could boot up my bootable external drive and have everything immediately with zero work. I guess I am just lazy.

It's hardly something I have to do on a regular basis, so I'm happy with the method.

I'm sure you think your way of doing things is better, but mine suits me just fine.

It's just because rebuilds are infrequent that the process is time-consuming and error-prone and often produces mildly unpleasant little gotchas. So, people with an engineering outlook prefer to have simple reliable and testable methods to get quickly back to the status quo ante which often involves a little more thought and planning than simply assuming that using whatever Apple provides out of the box must be the best approach.

[SoiBiker]

Like I said, it works for me. No need to keep explaining how much cleverer you are and how much betterer your method would be.

[Naam]

my PC has four drives (not partitions!). the C: drive is cloned each and every evening on a different drive. should "C:" have any specific problems i am up and running again in less than 60 seconds by shutting down, new start and select different starting drive in BIOS.

is that done manually, what program do you use.

i would always after a fresh install and all programs and updates completed to do a clone.

it's done with a few mouseclicks plus the option "shut off PC when done". the (free) software is:

http://www.easeus.com/

[Naam]

Partitions?

When a drive fails so do all logical partitions on that drive.

Physical drives are for backups or your/he is just wasting space on the said drive.