How to "goose" a lethargic condo population into action against corrupt administration?

[ripley]

Our Administration has cut services, undermined the AGM process and allowed (apparently profited by) an imbalance of Thai to Foreign ownership ratio. The Administration takes the simple tactic of ignoring the most courteous of complaints and questions. There is no sign of Owner effort to correct these activities which profoundy affect their property values - despite all warnings.My concern, of course, is that my property values are being affected and cuts in services have rather drastically reduced the standard of living and security.

Common wisdom has it that people will respond if their pocketbooks are affected, but not in this case. The population is multi-national so perhaps communication is part of the problem.

Ideas?

[KittenKong]

Oh dear. The Thai techniques of apathy and selective deafness can be very irritating.

What does your committee have to say about it? Or are they puppets of the management company?

As far as I know the Land Office is your ultimate recourse as they are responsible for ensuring that the condo rules are applied, especially when it comes to ownership ratios, AGM legality etc. They wont be interested in reduced services.

Prior to that, you can force an EGM by petition if you have the support of 20% of the vote. The JPM will be obliged to contact all owners about this, and you will have the opportunity to put your complaint on the agenda. Whether you get a quorum at the EGM is another matter.

But of course even if you get an EGM called there wont be a great deal you can do without legal help. I would suggest that you search for another management company who is prepared to help you get the existing one ousted. Without a viable alternative to propose at the EGM you are not likely to obtain a vote in your favour, and in your own interests you should have a replacement in hand anyway. The likelihood of getting the existing company to see the error of their ways is minimal, I suspect.

Best of luck.

[ripley]

Hilariously enough, our committee is composed of Foreigners! The JPM is Thai, married to a Foreigner. The committee hired a Thai management company and it seems they use its services to advance their own agendas.

An agent told me that, when all is said and done, Thai committees seem to do a better job as they are "less militant" (whatever that may mean)!

[Delight]

To my mind the first problem to solve is communication.

If there are 5 dominant languages in the place then all e mail traffic will be in those 5 languages. No easy job..

Before this happens a plan must be developed.

Will your replacement manager be an improvement ?

I suspect that your CAM fees are low. Co -owners will not respond if they sense that fees will rise. Some selling is required.

Of course at some stage an EGM will need to be organised . 25% of total vote to change managers and 20% of total vote to legally organise an EGM.

A massive amount of determination will be required..

Are you up to it?

The land office will not do it for you.

[KittenKong]

Hilariously enough, our committee is composed of Foreigners! The JPM is Thai, married to a Foreigner. The committee hired a Thai management company and it seems they use its services to advance their own agendas.

I see. In that case it sounds as though the problem is really with the committee and not the management company. Committee members do tend to have their own agendas, and it's a rare committee member who actually works 100% for the good of all the community. I like to think that I do, but maybe I'm deluding myself also. I'm certainly not quick to trust anyone on a committee here who has any sort of business here, or friends with businesses here; they always seem to be on the lookout for a quick profit and never seem to care about anything apart from themselves.

If your committee is the problem then the answer to that is either wait for an AGM and vote them out or force an EGM and vote them out. Either will require a quorum and some backing from other co-owners as mentioned by Delight.

Not sure if having a JPM married to a committee member is a very good idea. I suppose it depends on the people involved but in general I would be against it.

An agent told me that, when all is said and done, Thai committees seem to do a better job as they are "less militant" (whatever that may mean)!

My limited experience of Thais on committees is that they do a vast amount of talking but rarely act, or if they do act they go off like a bull in a china shop without really thinking of the consequences.

I suppose that if the management is doing a good job then this would not be a problem, but if the management is lazy or incompetent or crooked (as many are) then you really do need a good committee to watch every single thing the management does.

[ripley]

When it became clear that services were being slashed without warning or consult w/ the Co-owners, our Condo was under investigation by the Land Office because of a mysteriously skewed Thai-Foreign Ownership Ratio (the LO was refusing to process sales), and expenses expected to escalate - some owners complained openly, others amongst themselves. They were told by the Business Office Manager and Committee Members to take up the matters at the up-coming AGM when "all would be cleared up and everyone would have a voice". A letter was written to the Administration to ask that questions regarding these matters be added to the Agenda of the AGM for open (and minuted) discussion. When it became clear the Admin. was employing every kind of delaying tactic, the entire correspondence was sent in group mails to the Owners so that everyone would be aware. To "make a chapter out of a novel", the items were never added to the Agenda. Unfortunately I was unavoidably out of the country so unable to attend the AGM and my proxy could not attend either due to a death in the family. An apparently docile population of Owners attending did not press the issues. Minutes of the AGM have not been made available.

Yes, an EGM would be the way to go. Perhaps a circulated petition would enable us to garner the numbers needed. But unless and until I see some of the other Owners showing initiative and interest, I'm not willing to expend more effort to sort things out for them. I'm not some "crank" who likes to make waves. Quite the opposite, actually. I attempted to work within the system to encourage open discourse. I really did expect compliance. These issues at our condo greatly affect our property values and quality of life and - as I've said - common wisdom is that when people's pocket-books are tweaked they react - but not in this case.

There is some reason to suspect that other owners have been intimidated. Language is another problem. Whatever the case, nobody so far has challenged a Committee and Administration who stonewalls, prevaricates and has generally gone rogue.

And it's not a one-person job.

Edited March 19, 2015 by ripley

[KittenKong]

You only need to get 20% voting support to force an EGM, so I would go for it if you feel strongly enough about the issue.

But I know full well that no matter how just your cause the vast bulk of owners will not attend the AGM/EGM and will not fill out a proxy form. In my own building I dont think voting attendance has ever gone beyond 30%, and is usually around 20-25%.

The general apathy and laziness never cease to amaze me.

[Delight]

Thinking more about this problem -I think that my first tactic would be to attempt to persuade the committee to raise the fees.

Getting the general fee increased (i.e. with a 50% vote ) is impossible

However only a simple majority is required at a legally convened general meeting to levy a 'Special Assessment'

This approach will raise the fees only for a limited time -typically 3 years. The process is then repeated:

It worked a treat in the condo where I live. Without it we would be in serious trouble.

In all likely hood the root caise of the problem is simply a lack of money

[KittenKong]

However only a simple majority is required at a legally convened general meeting to levy a 'Special Assessment'

This approach will raise the fees only for a limited time -typically 3 years. The process is then repeated:

Yes. We do this every year. Many other older buildings do the same.

In all likely hood the root caise of the problem is simply a lack of money

Maybe, maybe not. I've seen more than enough crooked committee members and management staff, without whom their building finances would be in fair shape.

[ripley]

Thinking more about this problem -I think that my first tactic would be to attempt to persuade the committee to raise the fees.

Getting the general fee increased (i.e. with a 50% vote ) is impossible

However only a simple majority is required at a legally convened general meeting to levy a 'Special Assessment'

This approach will raise the fees only for a limited time -typically 3 years. The process is then repeated:

It worked a treat in the condo where I live. Without it we would be in serious trouble.

In all likely hood the root caise of the problem is simply a lack of money

I know this is "off topic" (How to "goose" a....) but I'm not following your logic. I can't see the sense in throwing more money at a Committee/Administration which has already proved itself to be unethical.. As to "Special Funds", our first one years ago was for 44,000,000 B. & subsequently new ones demanded on a yearly basis.

Can you elaborate on your thoughts?

Edited March 20, 2015 by ripley

[ripley]

Yeah, the statistics on pro-active Owner-involvement in Condo affairs appears to be pretty much the same across the board - nil. With one significant exception: Committees. The reason is worth pondering. I believed for years that the people who sign on for this job are civic-minded souls whose goal it was to set things right and that our responsibility as Owners was to give them the benefit of all doubt as well as gratitude and support. Now, having paid the price for the hi-jinks of many Committees - the present being one of the worst - I conclude that, without adequate Owner insistence on accurate information and compliance with Law, the way is open for much abuse of privelege and position.

Now - how to get Owners to accept this and to protect their interests????

[Delight]

Thinking more about this problem -I think that my first tactic would be to attempt to persuade the committee to raise the fees.

Getting the general fee increased (i.e. with a 50% vote ) is impossible

However only a simple majority is required at a legally convened general meeting to levy a 'Special Assessment'

This approach will raise the fees only for a limited time -typically 3 years. The process is then repeated:

It worked a treat in the condo where I live. Without it we would be in serious trouble.

In all likely hood the root caise of the problem is simply a lack of money

I know this is "off topic" (How to "goose" a....) but I'm not following your logic. I can't see the sense in throwing more money at a Committee/Administration which has already proved itself to be unethical.. As to "Special Funds", our first one years ago was for 44,000,000 B. & subsequently new ones demanded on a yearly basis.

Can you elaborate on your thoughts?

I am only persuaded to accept that your services have reduced in both quality and quantity

Your other statements relating to 'corrupt this ' and corrupt that' seem to me to be your subjective position.

Convince yourself and then me that the root of your problems is not simply a combination of a weak committee coupled with a shortage of funding.

By law you must have access to cash flow info.

Your accounts are audited every year.

Surely this data is telling you something.

[KittenKong]

By law you must have access to cash flow info.

Your accounts are audited every year.

Surely this data is telling you something.

It took me months after joining our committee to get access to proper cash-flow reports; none had been produced for the best part of a year. Even when I did finally start getting them they were full of the most basic accounting errors, to the extent that I was unable to even sign off on some of them until they were redone. Even then unexplained holes remained.

As for the yearly audit, it seems to be a joke here.

Yes, the auditors do balance the books but as long as they see a receipt for the toilet seat that was purchased for 3 million Baht they will be entirely satisfied. They have zero interest in what money is actually spent on.

[Delight]

By law you must have access to cash flow info.

Your accounts are audited every year.

Surely this data is telling you something.

It took me months after joining our committee to get access to proper cash-flow reports; none had been produced for the best part of a year. Even when I did finally start getting them they were full of the most basic accounting errors, to the extent that I was unable to even sign off on some of them until they were redone. Even then unexplained holes remained.

As for the yearly audit, it seems to be a joke here.

Yes, the auditors do balance the books but as long as they see a receipt for the toilet seat that was purchased for 3 million Baht they will be entirely satisfied. They have zero interest in what money is actually spent on.

Is there anybody on the committee that you trust?

If so why not supply the evidence to the Land Office.

As you know it is their job to police the Condo Act.

From what you say illegal irregularities are being committed.

Where is your JPM in all this?

Also do you use a Management Company?

[tolsti]

Get a major international management company in. They won't be cheap but you will have transparency, qualified staff with head office back up and no vested interest in the little scams that some property managers run. You will be told, however uncomfortable it maybe the state of your building, M & E, and what repairs are needed.

[KittenKong]

Is there anybody on the committee that you trust?

If so why not supply the evidence to the Land Office.

As you know it is their job to police the Condo Act.

From what you say illegal irregularities are being committed.

Where is your JPM in all this?

Also do you use a Management Company?

Maybe you are confusing me with the OP?

I was just trying to point out that cash-flow reports and audits are not always perfect here and may not be very good tools for targeting fraud.

[ripley]

It is one thing to recognize a breach of law. Another thing to address that breach and enlist help. Take a simple example: Let us say the accounts are not made open to the Owners, the audits dubious. Once that fact is ascertained the problem before you is how obtain facts and to compel compiance with the law.This Topic addresses that problem.

I don't use the word "corrupt" lightly nor unfairly, tho I can see that it would be easy to form that opinion when you are not in possession of all the facts.

Not being in possession of all the facts is an uncomfortable position - our Administration refuses point blank to provide them or to facilitate in any way an open discussion of them, even within the regulated public forum of an AGM. Despite repeated requests for info, the date of our AGM was not revealed until less than one week before the event. Those living part of the year abroad were given no advance notice, whereas the policy of our Condo has always been to mail/e-mail notice, proxies and Agenda 2 weeks before the AGM. (If you want attendance it stands to reason you will give ample notice.) The Agenda, which was aso withheld until the last minute, did not include a single issue requested by the Owners. Considerable effort has been necessary to discover what's going on and how deep it goes. Certainly the illegal transfer of properties from Thai to Foreign ownership to benefit certain parties could only be accomplished by the JPM, who to this day - together with the Committee & Management Co. - continue to "stonewall". That, I believe, is called "corruption".

However, it hasn't been my intention to itemize the improprieties and details of the Condo publicly here except to the extent that allows the TVF participants to realize that the problems and indications are not theoretical. That they are serious enough for a responsible Owner to have legitimate concerns and very good reason to address them.

And the question asked by this Topic is: "Why wouldn't they address them? How does one advise and alert them of the need to be involved?"

[topt]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

It is one thing to recognize a breach of law. Another thing to address that breach and enlist help. Take a simple example: Let us say the accounts are not made open to the Owners, the audits dubious. Once that fact is ascertained the problem before you is how obtain facts and to compel compiance with the law.This Topic addresses that problem.

I don't use the word "corrupt" lightly nor unfairly, tho I can see that it would be easy to form that opinion when you are not in possession of all the facts.

Not being in possession of all the facts is an uncomfortable position - our Administration refuses point blank to provide them or to facilitate in any way an open discussion of them, even within the regulated public forum of an AGM. Despite repeated requests for info, the date of our AGM was not revealed until less than one week before the event. Those living part of the year abroad were given no advance notice, whereas the policy of our Condo has always been to mail/e-mail notice, proxies and Agenda 2 weeks before the AGM. (If you want attendance it stands to reason you will give ample notice.) The Agenda, which was aso withheld until the last minute, did not include a single issue requested by the Owners. Considerable effort has been necessary to discover what's going on and how deep it goes. Certainly the illegal transfer of properties from Thai to Foreign ownership to benefit certain parties could only be accomplished by the JPM, who to this day - together with the Committee & Management Co. - continue to "stonewall". That, I believe, is called "corruption".

However, it hasn't been my intention to itemize the improprieties and details of the Condo publicly here except to the extent that allows the TVF participants to realize that the problems and indications are not theoretical. That they are serious enough for a responsible Owner to have legitimate concerns and very good reason to address them.

And the question asked by this Topic is: "Why wouldn't they address them? How does one advise and alert them of the need to be involved?"

Respectfully I think you know the answer already. You would have to go round and canvass sufficient owners and convince them that there is an issue and make sure all (enough) attend or you get signed proxy voting forms at you EGM. From what you say they currently don't seem to think it is worth the trouble so you have to prove to them. If they are still not interested you are probably stuffed.

KK and or Delight I think suggested going to the Land office - don't minutes have to be provided by law?

[KittenKong]

Not being in possession of all the facts is an uncomfortable position - our Administration refuses point blank to provide them or to facilitate in any way an open discussion of them, even within the regulated public forum of an AGM.

I'm slightly confused by exactly who you mean by "administration".

Normally you should have a committee, a Juristic Person Manager and some sort of management. This latter may be an outside company or it may be staff the building employs directly under the control of the JPM.

Which of these do you think is causing the problem?

As for the cashflow and minutes, yes there is a legal requirement to provide them in the same way as there is a legal requirement to hold an AGM every year or an EGM at the request of at least 20% of co-owners (by voting ratio), and have elections for committee members at least every two years (minimum 3 members, maximum 9 members). There is also a rule that a committee member can only stand twice in succession (ie 4 years) unless no one else at all wants the job. If some or all of this is not happening then the Land Office is empowered to police it. How interested they will be to act is another matter, hence my suggestion that you might like to get legal advice and the assistance of another management company, assuming that your current management is not doing its job properly.

[KittenKong]

KK and or Delight I think suggested going to the Land office - don't minutes have to be provided by law?

They do, but there is no requirement to hold a meeting every month, nor is there any requirement for any particular things to be discussed at the meetings.

Personally I think that a meeting every month should be obligatory, even if there is nothing at all to talk about apart from the date of the next meeting.

[ripley]

By "Administration" I mean the Committee, Juristic Person Manager and Management Company.

I agree that the Land Office should be notified and requested to investigate further. I know that they were investigating the Ratio of Ownership and have held up sales of units until that issue was resolved. But haven't heard anything since. The Administration denies or keeps mum on this subject.

When the activities of the Administration finally became apparent, I was in Thailand for 4 months. I used that time to verify facts, listen to Owners and "work within the system" to address issues courteously and directly with the Administration. I came away very alarmed but felt sure that the other Owners would certainly put in some work as their interests and the law were so clearly being violated. Since that time I have done what I could via e-mails. As can be expected, this painted a "bull's eye" squarely on my back! I guess everyone knows this goes with the territory.

It may be that others are working behind the scenes. Perhaps someone has written to the Land Office which, I believe, is the very first thing that needs to be done. Certainly hope so, but I have no further information other than unsubstantiated rumours. When I return, I'll do what I can to ascertain facts and events &, depending on what I discover, shall myself write to the Land Office. I realize that I'll be doing the research and probably be paying for the translations, etc. from my pocket. However, further than that I won't go on my own. Exercise in futility for a group of people who apparently think it's "not worth the trouble".

P.S. On the advice of a TVF member I'm considering starting a condo "Newsletter" - featuring neutral subjects such as events, items for sale, births, deaths, features that owners may care to write. This would be in the interest of creating a sense of "community" which, in the long run, might bring everyone together on some level. Yet, as Delight points out, in what language shall it be??!!

Edited March 21, 2015 by ripley

[Delight]

I can see no other solution -other than to use a good lawyer.

If ,however you could find away to double the cam fees using the 'Special Assessment 'device (on say a 3 year deal)

That will definitely get the attention of all your fellow co -owners.

[inzman]

You can't expect a condo to be run efficiently and without corruption in this country. Just look at the big famous temple and how corrupt the financing is, how about he billions stolen from the credit union. How about the billions stolen from the big university. There is epic and pervasive corruption and non adherence to fundamental accounting rules. Nobody is ever held accountable. Follow the old rule, don't bring over more than you can afford to lose here.

[ripley]

I don't think it would be prudent to place one more Baht into the hands of an administration operating with such arrogance under the shadow of blatant corruption.

[Delight]

I don't think it would be prudent to place one more Baht into the hands of an administration operating with such arrogance under the shadow of blatant corruption.

Your missing the point

The point is shake your fellow co -owners out of their complacency!

If doubling the fees does not work -then treble them.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Delight

[ripley]

Tried to reply via the "quick reply" but don't see it here.

Just saying that "Ah! I get it!" and giving my opinion which is that I'm beginning to think this bunch of Owners would meekly offer up their first born to avoid bother with the Administration!

[ripley]

As usual, TVF Members have offered keen understanding of the problems and insightful advice.

If anyone out there should have a brainstorm, please let me know!

[KittenKong]

I can see no other solution -other than to use a good lawyer.

If ,however you could find away to double the cam fees using the 'Special Assessment 'device (on say a 3 year deal)

That will definitely get the attention of all your fellow co -owners.

You cant do that without a vote. Who would vote for such a thing?

[KittenKong]

.... I'm beginning to think this bunch of Owners would meekly offer up their first born to avoid bother with the Administration!

There's nothing odd about that. In my experience most owners in most buildings here just dont want to know. This is why the unscrupulous have little trouble walking all over them.

Thailand has no shortage of people who just dont want to make any effort if they can possibly avoid it. Some are born here and some move here.

The lack of effort extends to management and management companies also. They dont want to put any effort into checking anything, so they just "trust" other people's work. In fact it's all just bone idleness.

[Delight]

I can see no other solution -other than to use a good lawyer.

If ,however you could find away to double the cam fees using the 'Special Assessment 'device (on say a 3 year deal)

That will definitely get the attention of all your fellow co -owners.

You cant do that without a vote. Who would vote for such a thing?

Those like Ripley who wish to see change

Only a simple win vote at legal general meeting is required

Ripley's opening Q was about motivating lethargic co -owners

Increasing the fees should do it

That said it will need leadership from an interested co -owner

Ripley needs to ask himself 'Am I up to it?'