Abuse Of Power By Doctor In Bnh

[susah_sih]

I have been living off an on in Thailand since 1995, and this time around for 3.5 years hence I am pretty familiar with the characters of the locals and know what to do and not to do.

Recently I changed my job, and the new company required me to go for health check as part of its policy and also for getting the work permit/insurance. The company's HR told me what kind of tests required for this purpose and I went to BNH for the tests. I showed the doctor at BNH what type of tests required. Perhaps this is as a part of selling program for BNH to make more money, she required me to take more tests than needed by my company. Given that I went to BNH on Saturday, some of the tests were not available to be taken that day and hence I had to go back on the following week for the additional tests which were not needed. I told the doctor that I do not really need those tests and asked for her consideration to waive those tests, given that I wont be able to take a day off to take those tests on regular working days. Besides my company will only reimburse up to Bt2000 for the tests and those additional tests will have to be paid from my own pocket. I sensed immediately that she felt that I somehow challenged her authority or knowledge on the issue. Hence she issued a health report based on the tests that were required. She highlighted that I have a problem on my blood count and she highlighted that I may have some serious health issue. I do not believe at all what she wrote and I could sense that she was really angry when she handed me the medical certificate. I paid the bill without further comment since I knew it would be useless to argue with such individual. I went to Bumrungrad hospital and took another tests and the doctor issued a medical certificate which basically says that I am in a perfect healthy condition and nothing wrong with my blood count, etc, etc. I had reported about the incidents to BNH but it looks it fell on deaf ears. They all told me that she is such a good doctor bla bla etc and basically it is my health problem that causes her to issue such a potentially damaging report to my employment status.

Again, the experience shows that doctors, like any other Thai people with authority, often abuse their power when they feel their inteligence/wisdom/authority is being questioned.

[leisurely]

I am confused. Why would she claim that you had a blood disorder if you don't? Assuming that all the tests were the same at Bumrungrad, I would return to BNH and ask for a refund.

[Ijustwannateach]

You have to be verrrrrrrrrrrrrry careful in Asian hospitals, especially if you work in one, not to step on a superior's toes.

Even in Japan this can cause many problems, especially as the highest-status and most powerful doctors (who are in charge of everything) also typically have the least up-to-date educations and experience. Younger doctors who may know a lot more and be more correct must bow to their superiors. A Japanese nurse I interviewed once said she wasn't sure if she could stop a doctor from making a terrible, even fatal mistake- even if she knew for sure that it was one.

Foreigners who are entering Asian medical systems must often abandon their patient-rights, informed-consent, malpractice-protected view of medicine. In fact, if a doctor makes a mistake, even a horrible, terrible, obvious mistake, there's very little chance you can make anyone take any responsibility for it. With that in mind, it becomes incredibly important who you choose your doctor to be.

"Steven"

[Simmo]

I went to a Thai hospital for the required work permit health certificate. The doc checked I had a heartbeat , recorded my weight and I was on my way .

100b for the certificate , took about 5 mins total.

[Digger]

Makes me laugh about my first work permit medical certificate - I was not even in the country when it was issued - as I recall I was on a business trip somewhere. According to my secretary it cost 100 baht.

[Dakhar]

The abuse of power is not a "Thai thing." They don't have the corner on that at all.

I have met some honest doctors in Thailand, and I have met some real stinkers. Just as I did in America.

[ding]

You have to be verrrrrrrrrrrrrry careful in Asian hospitals, especially if you work in one, not to step on a superior's toes.

Thai Doctors are very good. But -they are still human and this immunity from correction of errors is what gives me little confidence in major proceedures. May as well add elective proceedures to that too.

[kmart]

In Thai society doctors seem to be afforded too much respect. I say "too much", because there seems to be a lot of them who always put profit first over their patient's health.

How many times have you been to the doc's with something relatively trivial, and emerged carrying three Tesco's bags full of "drug of the month" smarties? They are given commission from the drugs companies to dispense these goodies; effective; habit-forming; do they care?

[ashacat]

Good point Kmart,

I recently went to Bangkok Hospital with flu symptoms (regular not bird!)

The doctor tried to give me:

Paracetamol (at about 10 times the cost of 7/11)

Vitamin C tablets

Muscle relaxants (due to aching joints and muscles)

Actifed type drug (again, far more expensive than from 7/11 or anywhere else)

Strepcils (you guessed it....very overpriced)

sleeping tablets (because I was tired and wasn't sleeping very well)

and anti-biotics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In the end I took the anti-biotics, then went to 7/11 and bought some of the other stuff. Must have saved over 2000 baht

[kmart]

Should be careful about antibio's too. Over-prescription of these will render your immune (white blood cells) system incapable of handling routine viral problems by itself; making you dependant on the ###### things.

Doctors know this, of course.

[samtam]

My experience with BNH is a mixed one. One the one hand obviously the environs are fantastic compared to many countries, first or third world. But their underlying motive is profit of course and they will try and effect that by prescription of drugs, tests etc. I think you just have to be sensible about these things and make your own judgement. (Unfortunate when it results in a negative report for your employer, I agree. But given the proof you say you have from Bumrungrad, I would be fairly agressive in taking it up with BNH.) In my own case I suffered from acute neck pain and attended their (then) newly established spinal clinic. Within the first consultation it was recommended that I had surgery on my neck to implant a new device that would improve the degenerative process that I was experiencing. I don't ever want surgery if I can help it, and so I consulted various different practitioners, including a chiropractor - excellent, Bumrungrad, (OK, but very painful treatment), and finally I had accupuncture, also excellent. I'm much much better. All of the practitioners other than the BNH doctor said "no way" to surgery. So when it doubt always ask for a second or third opinion. Always try to avoid taking drugs (antibiotics etc) or drastic forms of treatment.

[Noel]

Hence she issued a health report based on the tests that were required. She highlighted that I have a problem on my blood count and she highlighted that I may have some serious health issue. I do not believe at all what she wrote and I could sense that she was really angry when she handed me the medical certificate. I paid the bill without further comment since I knew it would be useless to argue with such individual. I went to Bumrungrad hospital and took another tests and the doctor issued a medical certificate which basically says that I am in a perfect healthy condition and nothing wrong with my blood count, etc, etc. I had reported about the incidents to BNH but it looks it fell on deaf ears. They all told me that she is such a good doctor bla bla etc and basically it is my health problem that causes her to issue such a potentially damaging report to my employment status.

Again, the experience shows that doctors, like any other Thai people with authority, often abuse their power when they feel their inteligence/wisdom/authority is being questioned.

Probably a daft question, but is there not a regulatory medical authority in Thailand to which one can formally lodge a complaint against a doctor?

The words 'defamation' and 'incompetence' spring to mind.

I would personally not let the spiteful harridan get away with it.

Btw, you neglected to mention her name...

[Mr Jones]

It is not just in Thailand,

If you notice when a doctor receives their doctorate the chancellor wares gloves, this is because there is a chemical compound infused in the certificate, it removes two little sentences in every know language from the memory of the recipients

1, I don’t know.

2, I was wrong.

Never heard a doctor say either.

Lez

[Nawtilus]

I generaly refuse to take the loads of 'smartie' mixed medicines.

I usually try to get over something now by myself and build up my own immune system by doing it.

A couple of years ago here, docs were prescribing all the mixtures of crap for throat infections, ranging from sore throats to so calle tonsilitis. The last time it took a month to get over it and none of their prescriptions worked,

That was the last time i promised myself. Next time i got it I was going to go cold turkey.

When I did, it took a month or more to fully get over it, but i did.

The next time i got it, it took a few days and I was better and so on. Not only did I not get it as often, it cleared up on its own relatively quickly.

I have it again now and it was getting better after just 3 days, but now a little worse, but think I got something else on top of it as feeling very different symptons to last time, but cold turkey last 2 days again and feeling somewhat better.

[PeaceBlondie]

One great, simple, Thai physician in Hua Hin, Dr. Sophon at the San Paolo Hospital, is modest enough that he insists on telling his patients when he doesn't know. His precise words were, "I have no idea what's wrong with you." I wish the specialists at Samitivej had been that modest, when they were equally clueless.

The original poster is employed by something like a MNC, that is willing to pay up to 2000 baht of its corporation's money for a medical exam that says more than "this patient doesn't have an elephant." Her mistake was in going to a doctor that was maximizing profit, a doctor that doesn't think the Hippocratic Oath is talking about pocketbooks when it says "First, do no harm."

I would advise the OP not to go back to BNH or that doctor; mai bpen rai.

[Douggie Style]

I have had similar experiences with doctors, long after becoming very cynical I stumbled upon a local GP who has an entirely different attitude.

He will say he doesn't know (rarely), doesn't like to prescribe, thoroughly believes in alternative treatments, provides links and information for your own research and takes how ever long he needs per session.

Our last session we spoke mostly about Buddhist philosophy and his research into traditional Vietnamese herbs!

Keep shopping around, don't give up and don't take second rate.

PS: Red capsicum is supposed to be a good immune system booster, drink it with beetroot & carrot if nothing else it will give you a healthy 'glow'.

[jbsears]

I went to BNH once for some type of virus that caused a rash. The doctor prescribed these ointment packets which are needed but he prescribed about a year's worth. When I went to pay they told me it was 10,000 baht. I couldn't believe it. I didn't buy the medicine. I went to Boots where it was about 100 baht cheaper per packet and I didn't have to buy such a bulk worth. Boots sold individual packets where my total bill went from 10,000 baht to 1,500 baht.

BNH IS ALL ABOUT MONEY. DON'T GO THERE!!!!

[alexth]

The same goes for the Samitivej Hospital, I went their for a tiny little nail infection from a salon in Bkk and they were actually getting ready to remove my nail I refused and I ended up with a 3000 baht bill for for the consulation and some Tylenol and some antibiotics. Of course the nail is in it's place and I am perfectly ok WITHOUT the surgical intervention...Hope God I'll keep healthy so I won't have to put up with those idiots again

BTW, can I refuse to buy the pills prescribed from the hospital's pharmacy? I have a guess they are charging triple from an average pharmacy

[djinn]

Last year I had a prostate infection (prostatite)

First went to BKK Pattaya Hospital in Pattaya.See the young urologist there.He gave me antibiotics that relieved pain too .I wanted a second diagnostic.So went to Bumrumgrad.I think I saw the head of urology dept

The guy wanted I stopped for one week my antibiotics and then make tests.He didn't have a clue of the fact it will let me in big pain.When I explained him I already had the same illness in the past and tests were done with antibiotic;he became angry.He told me I had to come back the day after .He had no time to arrange to make the tests on this day.When I answered I will do the tests in Pattaya and I will come back.He really became angry.This sucker was only interrested on his tests's fees.Sure he new his job.But I cannot accept he thinks he is a little god and patients have to agree with any of his orders

I went back to the young urologist in Pattaya with whom I discussed the tests process and the treatment.This guy was educated in US.So he can deal with european customers (I don't speak about patients;here it is only business practices before medical ones;you know you have to struggle to have a good service)

[backflip]

djinn,

What causes prostatitis? Did you have a urinalysis? What antibiotic were you given?

Actually none of these questions matter to you. There is NO pleasing you. You were given a prescription, without a proper diagnosis, and you refused to take it for the proper amount of time. You went to a second doctor, and you refuse to have your condition properly diagnosed. The 2nd doctor was trying to help, and you think you know more than he. You don't. Patients as you are the bane to medical professionals worldwide.

[chuchok]

djinn,

What causes prostatitis? Did you have a urinalysis? What antibiotic were you given?

Actually none of these questions matter to you. There is NO pleasing you. You were given a prescription, without a proper diagnosis, and you refused to take it for the proper amount of time. You went to a second doctor, and you refuse to have your condition properly diagnosed. The 2nd doctor was trying to help, and you think you know more than he. You don't. Patients as you are the bane to medical professionals worldwide.

What a crap statement.

What djinn was fair IMO.

people like you are the bane of the general public worldwide.

[backflip]

"What djinn was fair IMO"

I pity your doctor.

[Khun Jack]

Last year I had a prostate infection (prostatite)

First went to BKK Pattaya Hospital in Pattaya.See the young urologist there.He gave me antibiotics that relieved pain too .I wanted a second diagnostic.So went to Bumrumgrad.I think I saw the head of urology dept

The guy wanted I stopped for one week my antibiotics and then make tests.He didn't have a clue of the fact it will let me in big pain.When I explained him I already had the same illness in the past and tests were done with antibiotic;he became angry.He told me I had to come back the day after .He had no time to arrange to make the tests on this day.When I answered I will do the tests in Pattaya and I will come back.He really became angry.This sucker was only interrested on his tests's fees.Sure he new his job.But I cannot accept he thinks he is a little god and patients have to agree with any of his orders

I went back to the young urologist in Pattaya with whom I discussed the tests process and the treatment.This guy was educated in US.So he can deal with european customers (I don't speak about patients;here it is only business practices before medical ones;you know you have to struggle to have a good service)

Three weeks ago I had a prostate infection with very high fever , went to the International Hospital Phuket and was given an injection with antibiotics and ofcourse a bag full pills and had to pay 3200 baht.

It did help but it's not over, now I wonder where is a good urologist to find here?.

I think I need some surgery to get the flow back again. Bangkok Phuket Hospital its first priority is making money and I had problems there with blownup bill of 45000 baht for a three day treatment for simple foodpoisening.

Found a usefull link with info about prostatitis;

http://prostatitis.org/

[h90]

I went to a Thai hospital for the required work permit health certificate. The doc checked I had a heartbeat , recorded my weight and I was on my way .

100b for the certificate , took about 5 mins total.

The first one I had here, my wife told the manager does not mess around with such things in Thailand, gave the motorbike 100 Baht and 1 hour later I had the certificate without seeing the doc.....

[WaiWai]

I went to a Thai hospital for the required work permit health certificate. The doc checked I had a heartbeat , recorded my weight and I was on my way .

100b for the certificate , took about 5 mins total.

The first one I had here, my wife told the manager does not mess around with such things in Thailand, gave the motorbike 100 Baht and 1 hour later I had the certificate without seeing the doc.....

Why support a lack of professionalism ?

[coldcrush]

I know exactly what you mean by this abuse. i was a Bangkok Hospital after I took a longhaul flight with pains in my leg and lower back. I knew that my back had been affected on the flight from sitting and sleeping in an unusual position. I attended the hospital and was told to to have my legs checked for DVT which I just new wasnt the case as I had no unusual swelling, etc. I told the Dr in question I wanted a MRI scan and checks on my lower back as the flight may have brought on pains from a bike accident earlier. The Dr was fuming, telling me that this was not the case and scaring me more. I told her to shove it and said i would go to another hospital, they then preceeded with the MRI and low and behold, I had a vertebrae nipping my nerve in my lower back.

The point I am making is that I felt I knew what was wrong with me and they just brushed it aside like I was just some mug who was attached to the body they were talking about and heaven forbid that a patient has a mind of there own!

[Neeranam]

BNH IS ALL ABOUT MONEY. DON'T GO THERE!!!!

And it is better than Bamrungrad, don't ever go there unless you don't mind getting ripped off.

[taxexile]

i saw a doc. at bumrungrad , he advised some blood tests.

when i got the quote and saw how expensive they were , i popped back in to see the doc , he said yes , they are expensive , but there was nothing to stop me getting the tests done at another hospital where they would certainly be cheaper and bringing the results back to bumrungrad for him to see and put in my records.

likewise with medication , when i complained to the doc. re. the exhorbitant price of medication there , he said i could obtain them elsewhere much cheaper , and even advised me where.

i was under no obligation to buy the pills or blood tests from bumrungrad .

pateints under stress due to worry , pain , their condition , unfamiliarity with the system here etc. can present with , shall we say "an attitude" towards the staff , this is very common in western hospitals and clinics , and can lead to abuse of staff , and the patient will certainly receive poorer treatment.

thai hospital staff , especially doctors and senior nurses , are used to ( rightly or wrongly) a certain degree of reverence from their patients , its the way it is here , when they feel they are not getting that respect , or are being told how to do their job by ( in some cases) know it all westerners who may have had previous bad experiences here at some of the shoddy hospitals here , then you can be sure that the prices will go up , tests will be delayed and things will become "personal" rather than "professional"

most health care workers are dedicated to their profession and some times the patient should just let them get on with it and stop quoting from internet information sites to them. every case is different.

hospitals like bumrungrad and samitivej employ good professionals , you can research their qualifications and specialties before you go.

for those unhappy with the facilities here in thailand , i suggest that you try getting an appointment to see a doctor in one of the major uk hospitals , and see what difficulties you face.

i also have had experience of treatment for myself and for friends in smaller hospitals out of bangkok ( not phuket,samui or pattaya) and have been more than happy with the professionalism and levels of service and fair pricing there.

Edited March 9, 2007 by taxexile

[benw]

Maybe someone should start a website (hosted outside Thailand), where farang can rate Thai doctors and hospitals departments and share their experiences with each other. If run responsibly and with discretion, it could be very useful for the expat community.

[Old Man River]

The view my friends and I have about Bamrungrad (I know this is subjective) is that if you really have something wrong, then you will find the best doctors at Bamrungrad. However, if it is for a quarterly test for something that you already have under control, then Bamrungrad with its horrible traffic and crowded waiting rooms is a no go.

The problem is where else to go? The wife and I have started going to BNH as it is much easier to get into and out of (even in rush hour) and so far, we are very happy with it.