Some Questions

[Jonson83]

Hi all,

This is my first post on this forum.After searching the internet for a bit i think ive finally found a decent thailand forum.As most of the other questions i had about teaching in thailand have already been asked/answered in other threads.

Anyway,about me...im a 23 year old English bloke whos just come back(3 weeks ago) from 9 months living/travelling in southeast asia.I spent roughly 6 months in thailand(nearly 3 months in chiang mai) and the other 3 months was spent in laos,cambodia and vietnam.Quite simply i loved every minute of it and i really,REALLY want to get back out there.But this time stay for a lot longer and to work there.

I plan on heading back out there end of feb/early march.By then i should almost certainly have a TEFL certificate(hoping to do the course at birmingham uni in november).I do NOT have a degree,so as far as wp's go..im a little screwed.Anyhoo,a couple of questions i have for anyone who can answer them.

Im looking to work in or around Chiang mai,how hard will it be to get a job..either part time or full time?

What type of salary range would i be looking at?

Would i ever be able to get a work permit?

If anyone can answer these or give me some advice,thnx alot

Jon

[kayo]

Hi welcome to

I did a tefl in brommy a few years back. Nice town.

You should get plenty of info from this lot.

I can´t help you, as i don´t do politics, religion, or so-called education, but there´s plenty of good people here who can, including some in chiang mai itself.

kanchanburi is also a VERY pleasant town to live and teach in.. not that I´d know..

the Klown from The Highlands of Guate

[PeaceBlondie]

I'm looking to work in or around Chiang Mai; how hard will it be to get a job... either part time or full time?

What type of salary range would I be looking at?

Would I ever be able to get a work permit?

If anyone can answer these or give me some advice,thnx a lot

Jon

Hi Jon,

Welcome to Thai Visa, and thanks for the compliment.

Chiang Mai is a lovely place to live in many ways. But for people starting out to teach, without good qualifications, the salaries are low. 200 to 300 baht an hour; or usually 25K to 27K per month (maybe not for all the months of the year, either). Of course, I could be wrong and maybe I wasn't lucky. Same with work permit; you might get lucky, but I never did, and I had lots of the right documents. I think Loaded said here recently that there are hundreds of TEFLers in this area without WP's.

Get the best visa you can, preferably a one-year multiple entry. Then you do visa runs to Mae Sai (for example from Chiang Mai) every 89 days instead of every 29 days. Dress smart, act clever and proper, speak well, etc.

Perhaps several others have advice. Who's next?

[sriracha john]

Recommended thread for any new teachers considering Thailand, that is not located in Teaching in Thailand forum:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...c=80049&hl=

Were aware of two “alphabet” schools that were recently raided. The foreign teachers that were working without a work permit were arrested and taken to the Immigration police station.

[PeaceBlondie]

Concerning raids on schools by Thai officials, there is also a report or rumour that this week, there was a full-scale raid on one or more of the upper-tier schools that briefly employed John Mark Karr, in Bangkok.

[kenkannif]

A fair few rumours about at the moment to be fair.

[sriracha john]

Given the horrendous "black eye" that John Karr gave to Thailand's reputation, it's entirely understandable and believable that a crackdown can and is occuring... or at least some semblance of one.

It's certainly something to be concerned about and something that any newcomers to the profession should be made aware of.

Thailand was absolutely brutalized by the world-wide media attention focused on it and will attempt to take steps to improve it's standing, whether they're truly effective or not.

Edited September 1, 2006 by sriracha john

[Khutan]

Given the horrendous "black eye" that John Karr gave to Thailand's reputation, it's entirely understandable and believable that a crackdown can and is occuring... or at least some semblance of one.

Agreed, and I think that would be the same for almost any country, after having something like that happen.

[Jonson83]

I'm looking to work in or around Chiang Mai; how hard will it be to get a job... either part time or full time?

What type of salary range would I be looking at?

Would I ever be able to get a work permit?

If anyone can answer these or give me some advice,thnx a lot

Jon

Hi Jon,

Welcome to Thai Visa, and thanks for the compliment.

Chiang Mai is a lovely place to live in many ways. But for people starting out to teach, without good qualifications, the salaries are low. 200 to 300 baht an hour; or usually 25K to 27K per month (maybe not for all the months of the year, either). Of course, I could be wrong and maybe I wasn't lucky. Same with work permit; you might get lucky, but I never did, and I had lots of the right documents. I think Loaded said here recently that there are hundreds of TEFLers in this area without WP's.

Get the best visa you can, preferably a one-year multiple entry. Then you do visa runs to Mae Sai (for example from Chiang Mai) every 89 days instead of every 29 days. Dress smart, act clever and proper, speak well, etc.

Perhaps several others have advice. Who's next?

Cool,thanks for the answers blondie.

Starting at 25-27k doesnt sound all that bad to me!.Its obviously no where near as high as western standards,but its still a lot of money for Thailand.Hopefully it will lead to better paid jobs aswell?

I did a couple of visas runs to mae sai whilst i was in chiang mai,so that seems simple enough.Althought going once every 3 months does seem a much better idea and would save me 1200 baht...or would it? do you have any idea how much a 1 year mulitple entry visa costs?

About the work permit,the 'raid' mentioned doesnt sound good,but if its so hard to get a WP.Ill probably have little option but to work without a one?

[sriracha john]

Ill probably have little option but to work without a one?

I suppose this is what I have difficulty comprehending. How an intelligent person can travel half-way around the world and so casually place themselves in such a precarious position... risking freedom and putting themselves in direct jeopardy of apprehension and confinement in a SE Asian jail. This is even more perplexing when this occurs specifically after being informed of the uncertainty of their situation and the ambiguity of their status and occurs when the issue is very much in the spotlight.

This isn't meant as a personal attack on you, Jonson… you are certainly not alone and most likely you are unaware of the severe repercussions this can have for you.

This is also not to say that “I have never sinned,” ( *far from it* ) but as with many things in life, it’s all about risk assessment and I have trouble understanding the mindset that says, despite all the focus being placed on this particular sin for now, that, “The risk is worth it.”

It’s common phrase that to avoid trouble in Thailand involves “flying under the radar.” At the same time, the issue of teachers/work permits/qualifications/etc. seems to have a ground-level radar sweep scanning at present.

[Jonson83]

Ill probably have little option but to work without a one?

I suppose this is what I have difficulty comprehending. How an intelligent person can travel half-way around the world and so casually place themselves in such a precarious position... risking freedom and putting themselves in direct jeopardy of apprehension and confinement in a SE Asian jail. This is even more perplexing when this occurs specifically after being informed of the uncertainty of their situation and the ambiguity of their status and occurs when the issue is very much in the spotlight.

This isn't meant as a personal attack on you, Jonson… you are certainly not alone and most likely you are unaware of the severe repercussions this can have for you.

This is also not to say that “I have never sinned,” ( *far from it* ) but as with many things in life, it’s all about risk assessment and I have trouble understanding the mindset that says, despite all the focus being placed on this particular sin for now, that, “The risk is worth it.”

It’s common phrase that to avoid trouble in Thailand involves “flying under the radar.” At the same time, the issue of teachers/work permits/qualifications/etc. seems to have a ground-level radar sweep scanning at present.

Fair comment and i can certainly see where your coming from.

But look at it from my point of view.I want to work in thailand and i want to work legally with a work permit.It seems that the thais dont give these things out like candy and even people with the right documents and degrees etc can have real trouble getting them.So,what can i do?

Can i get a work permit with only a TEFL ???

So many places in thailand seemed to run TEFL courses and half of these 'guaranteed' a job after the course was complete? If they guarantee a job,does that mean they guarantee a work permit?.If i remember rightly,the AUA and british coucil in chiang mai did 'deals' like this?

I understand that atm,the situation is very much 'under the spotlight' but as i said in my first post.I will not be returning to thailand for 6 months and i wont be working for atleast 2 months after that.Maybe things will be better in 7-8 months time or maybe things will have got worse?? who knows? Ill have to see for myself when i get there.Teaching or not,i will be back in thailand by then.For sure.

thnx for the comments btw,i need ti hear this sort of thing.

[SusanRichardson]

So many places in thailand seemed to run TEFL courses and half of these 'guaranteed' a job after the course was complete? If they guarantee a job,does that mean they guarantee a work permit?.If i remember rightly,the AUA and british coucil in chiang mai did 'deals' like this?

Yes, you can get a work permit because SOME think a TEFL Certificate is a college degree.

The only guarantee is they will WANT THE MONEY for the course up front. How they continue to advertise the guaranteed job is beyond most, however, it must work as people continue to take the courses. Cheers. Susan

[SusanRichardson]

I suppose this is what I have difficulty comprehending. How an intelligent person can travel half-way around the world and so casually place themselves in such a precarious position... risking freedom and putting themselves in direct jeopardy of apprehension and confinement in a SE Asian jail. This is even more perplexing when this occurs specifically after being informed of the uncertainty of their situation and the ambiguity of their status and occurs when the issue is very much in the spotlight.

Sex and the desire to breed for self preservation.

cheers. Susan

[Loaded]

Ill probably have little option but to work without a one?

I suppose this is what I have difficulty comprehending. How an intelligent person can travel half-way around the world and so casually place themselves in such a precarious position... risking freedom and putting themselves in direct jeopardy of apprehension and confinement in a SE Asian jail.

Don't be daft.

Who has ever been locked up in jail for teaching without a wp?

Names/dates/schools please.

[Ijustwannateach]

So many places in thailand seemed to run TEFL courses and half of these 'guaranteed' a job after the course was complete? If they guarantee a job,does that mean they guarantee a work permit?.If i remember rightly,the AUA and british coucil in chiang mai did 'deals' like this?

Yes, you can get a work permit because SOME think a TEFL Certificate is a college degree.

The only guarantee is they will WANT THE MONEY for the course up front. How they continue to advertise the guaranteed job is beyond most, however, it must work as people continue to take the courses. Cheers. Susan

Actually, the reason you can get a work permit is that for the purpose (teaching TEFL) a TEFL certification is considered good enough by most schools and then, of course, the Thai government which issues the work permit (and I personally happen to agree). I doubt anyone particularly considers a TEFL the same as a college degree. That's why it's called a TEFL.

I don't have any personal knowledge of what guarantees any TEFL course provider makes; let the buyer beware, as usual. However, I would be pretty sure that whoever wanted to claim those guarantees would actually have to finish the course. Don't you think so?

"Steven"

[Jonson83]

So many places in thailand seemed to run TEFL courses and half of these 'guaranteed' a job after the course was complete? If they guarantee a job,does that mean they guarantee a work permit?.If i remember rightly,the AUA and british coucil in chiang mai did 'deals' like this?

Yes, you can get a work permit because SOME think a TEFL Certificate is a college degree.

The only guarantee is they will WANT THE MONEY for the course up front. How they continue to advertise the guaranteed job is beyond most, however, it must work as people continue to take the courses. Cheers. Susan

Actually, the reason you can get a work permit is that for the purpose (teaching TEFL) a TEFL certification is considered good enough by most schools and then, of course, the Thai government which issues the work permit (and I personally happen to agree). I doubt anyone particularly considers a TEFL the same as a college degree. That's why it's called a TEFL.

I don't have any personal knowledge of what guarantees any TEFL course provider makes; let the buyer beware, as usual. However, I would be pretty sure that whoever wanted to claim those guarantees would actually have to finish the course. Don't you think so?

"Steven"

Steve,

So with a TEFL theres a good chance i can get a WP? nice one.Thanks for responding.

[Ijustwannateach]

Well, I can't speak for the Thai government. And who knows what effect (if any?) the whole over-reaction to the Karr thing will ultimately have. But the status quo is that government schools can decide pretty much if you're qualified enough for them- quite often that means a TEFL is enough- and so can agencies, apparently.

You won't get the *best* jobs with no degree, but there are plenty of jobs around.

"Steven"

[SusanRichardson]

I don't have any personal knowledge of what guarantees any TEFL course provider makes; let the buyer beware, as usual. However, I would be pretty sure that whoever wanted to claim those guarantees would actually have to finish the course. Don't you think so?

"Steven"

The course providers are not in a position to make the guarantee unless they are going to hire the person themselves. It is all SALES. There is a sign in Pattaya on a major intersection stating the guarantee. It is hand painted with "liquid" on a 5baht poster apx 1/2 meter in size. Don't you get the point? This is THAILAND, the money is the objective not an education. Cheers...Susan

[SusanRichardson]

I doubt anyone particularly considers a TEFL the same as a college degree. That's why it's called a TEFL.

I've seen it first hand. They are considered one in the same, a "diploma" is a diploma. The concept of a western university education is unknown in Thailand. Remember, the Thai's are going to compare a college degree to their own thinking and mindset of its value. The much ballyhooed TEFL Certificates while to you and I are of value much like a trade school or learning a skill such as truck driving for a month, they don't mean you grasp education and are or were willing to spend four years continuing your education, growing, and maturing beyond a high school level. Speaking of which, even high school is not verfied in Thailand. Cheers. Susan

[Ijustwannateach]

You've seen it first hand in what place, that TEFLs and 4 year college degree certifications are considered one and the same, by whom?

When I produced my degree certificate for my employer and the Ministries, they were certainly keen for it to be a real college certificate and not just a TEFL, since those were the qualifications that particular school was interested in.

There are schools who don't require a college certificate for sponsorship for a work permit teaching TEFL. The Ministries accept this kind of reasoning by the schools and process the paperwork, most of the time. That doesn't mean they believe the two are the same.

High school educations are not typically verified in Thailand because a college degree certificate presumes a high school education (this is why, for instance, most employers back in our home countries don't demand high school diplomas either- have you ever had a job in your home country? Or were the jobs you had ones in which high school status was frequently checked?)

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

Same here. The recruiters at Thai govt. schools earned a bachelor's degree to work there, and they expect to see BACHELOR - some even get confused by the Latin 'baccalaureate.' They're not that stupid about earned educational degrees. In my first interview, the teacher (with two master's) said, "Oh, you have a one year B visa, you have a real bachelor's degree, and you just finished a four week TEFL! I'm sure we'll hire you!" They did, and one of the committee members earned her Ed.D. in Australia. This was just a matayom school in a fairly remote province.

[SusanRichardson]

You've seen it first hand in what place, that TEFLs and 4 year college degree certifications are considered one and the same, by whom?

High school educations are not typically verified in Thailand because a college degree certificate presumes a high school education (this is why, for instance, most employers back in our home countries don't demand high school diplomas either- have you ever had a job in your home country? Or were the jobs you had ones in which high school status was frequently checked?)

"Steven"

Nice try Steven, to distract the reader from the points. I don't think the guys here realy want to talk about a farang woman do they? I'm refering to the people at the Work Permit offices and Immergration, government schools, odd places like that which do in fact exist in Thailand. I've never had a job in my home country. Or was it the ones I had required a high school education? I don't recall, where is McDonalds anyhow? Do they require a high school education? "Would you like a happy meal sir?"..humm... and if John Karr did not convince you NOTHING is actually checked I don't know exactly what to say.....Susan

[Ijustwannateach]

Actually, those were kind of rhetorical questions, again. But you're right, we're off-topic. The topic, once again, is Jonson83's concerns about starting life in Thailand, possibly as a TEFLer.

"Steven"

[kenkannif]

The MoE definitely knows the difference between a TEFL and a degree as they often refer people to TEFL programs so they are legit to obtain a TL etc.

[paully]

I don't think the guys here realy want to talk about a farang woman do they? I'm refering to the people at the Work Permit offices and Immergration, government schools, odd places like that which do in fact exist in Thailand. I've never had a job in my home country. Or was it the ones I had required a high school education? I don't recall, where is McDonalds anyhow? Do they require a high school education? "Would you like a happy meal sir?"..humm... and if John Karr did not convince you NOTHING is actually checked I don't know exactly what to say.....Susan

John Karr is a poor example to choose in relation to certification, Susan, because by all accounts he was a properly certified teacher in the US, albeit not a successful or morally upright one. He would have checked out okay on the degree certificate front.

I also doubt that the Ministry of Labour here together with the Ministry of Education and Immigration Department can't tell the difference between a degree certificate and a TEFL certificate. They're not as dim as you suppose.

[mark lamai]

for newbie techers the ajarn.com site is also very helpful.

stay away from the tefl in thailand with guranteed job if you can.

get a tefl and come to thailand.

you will get a job, maybe not the best, without a degree.

schools who employ you are responsible for getting the work permit.

they are notoriously slow or have no intention to do it.

you cannot get a work permit on your own.

just jump in and you will learn very quickly.

[Jonson83]

for newbie techers the ajarn.com site is also very helpful.

stay away from the tefl in thailand with guranteed job if you can.

get a tefl and come to thailand.

you will get a job, maybe not the best, without a degree.

schools who employ you are responsible for getting the work permit.

they are notoriously slow or have no intention to do it.

you cannot get a work permit on your own.

just jump in and you will learn very quickly.

My plan was always to get a TEFL before going to thailand,i hope to get it in november at brum university.Just thought it might be better to get it in thailand but wasnt sure,thnx for the heads up.

[niteowl]

I don't think the guys here realy want to talk about a farang woman do they? I'm refering to the people at the Work Permit offices and Immergration, government schools, odd places like that which do in fact exist in Thailand. I've never had a job in my home country. Or was it the ones I had required a high school education? I don't recall, where is McDonalds anyhow? Do they require a high school education? "Would you like a happy meal sir?"..humm... and if John Karr did not convince you NOTHING is actually checked I don't know exactly what to say.....Susan

John Karr is a poor example to choose in relation to certification, Susan, because by all accounts he was a properly certified teacher in the US, albeit not a successful or morally upright one. He would have checked out okay on the degree certificate front.

I also doubt that the Ministry of Labour here together with the Ministry of Education and Immigration Department can't tell the difference between a degree certificate and a TEFL certificate. They're not as dim as you suppose.

John Karr was not a properly certified teacher in the US. He attended college in Alabama, but dropped out before completing his required student teaching assignment. He was subsequently awarded a BS degree (as opposed to a BEd degree, a requirement for a teaching certificate in most states) by Regent College in Albany, New York. Regent College (now Excelsior College) is an online diploma mill, basically a half-step up from a degree from KSR.

His teaching experience consisted of two brief stints as a substitute teacher (apparently, substitute teachers have lower standards than full-time teachers, at least in some states), and a longer stint as a teacher's assistant at what seems to have been a Catholic elementary school. Parochial schools can set their own standards, and usually pay far less than regular public schools. In New York, I personally knew two people who taught in parochial schools (as teacher's assistants) with only a two-year degree. So, No, John Karr was not properly certified in the US.

I know this is off-topic, but I just felt that needed to be cleared up.

But, to get back on-topic, there are plenty of government schools in small towns around Chiangmai that need teachers. English teachers at the school I worked at (last year) in Lumphun, currently earn 19,000 to 25,000 Baht per month. They currently have four (English speaking) teachers, and only one is a native English speaker. They have difficulty holding on to qualified teachers, particularly native English speakers, because the pay is so low. Also, not many people want to live in a small town, particularly if their Thai language skills are sub-par. But, if that's not a problem for you, then you should have no trouble finding a job. Dress neatly, have your hair cut short, and make sure your tatoos don't show. Smile and be friendly, and you'll be offered a job in no time.

[kenkannif]

for newbie techers the ajarn.com site is also very helpful.

stay away from the tefl in thailand with guranteed job if you can.

get a tefl and come to thailand.

you will get a job, maybe not the best, without a degree.

schools who employ you are responsible for getting the work permit.

they are notoriously slow or have no intention to do it.

you cannot get a work permit on your own.

just jump in and you will learn very quickly.

My plan was always to get a TEFL before going to thailand,i hope to get it in november at brum university.Just thought it might be better to get it in thailand but wasnt sure,thnx for the heads up.

Probably is better to get it in Thailand as you'll then have your OTP with Thai students etc. If you do it in the UK by necessity it will be more of an ESL course and you won't really be learning to teach your target students. Actually many perks in doing it in country (Visa, work, specific training etc.).

[niteowl]

I agree with kenkannif, that it's more practical to obtain your TEFL training here, with actual Thai students.

Having said that, I have heard that the Thais have more regard for a TEFL certificate earned in your home country. So, whichever way you decide to go, you come out a winner.

Provided you pass the course, that is.

Edited September 5, 2006 by niteowl