'Middle-class prefers a controlled democracy'

[rubl]

""Elected politicians will be weak [under the new charter] as they will be overseen by unelected bodies,"

That is to some extend in all democracies. Prime example are the independent courts.

That's a misunderstanding. Even in evolved democracies, or especially in evolved ones, courts do not oversee members of the legislative in their function as legislative. If a member of parliament as a person (not as a MP) has to respond to a court, first the parliament has to lift his immunity.

In some countries there is a constitutional court with the power to declare unconstitutional a piece of legislation, but that is not so in all (evolved) democracies. And if the court can challenge the legislative, all that has to change is the piece of law, not the MPs.

But in a true democracy (whatever that is) I would believe that a court should not be able to overturn a piece of legislation the legislative has formally enacted. I am not talking about rules and regulations issued by the government, I am talking about a formal law introduced, debated and voted by the legislative. These laws are the will of the people as expressed through their representatives. Courts should respect that if democracy is the power of the people.

Now the new Thai draft constitution violates many principles of democracy, and of them them is that part of the legislative is NOT elected, thus does not represent the Thai people. So who do they represent?

There's a lot of truth in what you say. Still keep in mind that a democracy tends to be easily corrupted by people with less scruples and / those with demagogic capabilities. For Thailand the shenanigans around the blanket amnesty bill are a good example of that.

BTW I don't want to sound too pedantic, but whether elected or appointed the legislative represents the Thai people, but not necessarily or directly the Thai electorate as such.

[rubl]

This new charter is a huge, sad joke and a huge step backwards for Thailand.

It's a real shame what is happening. They are specifically setting this up so no one elected from the Northeast will have a majority party in power. The resulting government will NOT be a Democracy at all...not even a hint of Democracy. They know if it was a real Democracy then someone from the Northeast would be elected PM and the Bangkok elite WILL NOT let this happen again.

Someone from the NorthEast? Who might that be?

[rubl]

With all comments it would seem posters here have seen a near complete 'somewhat' final draft of the new charter proposal in English. Any pointer where it's available?

[rubl]

<quote>'Middle-class prefers a controlled democracy'</quote>

Yes, all 15 of them. Thailand has no real "middle-class" to speak of. There are the poor, working poor and psuedo-elite.

And this is precisely the single most important requirement before Thailand can have a true democracy.

They need a large "middle class" that has a common interest to give the government a common middle ground from which to work.

The issue is how to grow this middle class.

And I am ashamed of the person who said the poor were too uneducated to have a democracy. Shame on you!!! They are not too uneducated to understand and implement a democracy - they are poor!!! The poor have their own interests which are contrary those of the elite. Not right or wrong, just contrary. Build the common ground of a large middle class, and democracy will take hold by it's very nature.

It isnt a requisite to have a middle class to have a democracy. Why can't representative democracy be made with the balance of power with the lower end of economic society? Happens every day all over the world with left wing socialist governments being elected all over the world.

Nonsense idea that a country is too poor for democracy.

The interesting aspect of a democracy is that it only needs some demagogues and before you know it you have a 'Democratic Peoples" state.

[lucky11]

He hasn't quoted you - show me where the quotation marks are and just where he has attributed it as to coming from you!!

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1430204602.334071.jpg

And here's the earlier post where it started to go awry

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1430205170.975389.jpg

So you have a difference of opinion (at least I assume you do).

I just don't see, as you are claiming, where he has quoted you. It seems that you are paranoid my friend.

[metisdead]

An inflammatory insulting post has been removed.

[tonbridgebrit]

Do the middle-class want a democracy where only the middle-class can vote ?

[dru2]

<quote>'Middle-class prefers a controlled democracy'</quote>

Yes, all 15 of them. Thailand has no real "middle-class" to speak of. There are the poor, working poor and psuedo-elite.

Where do you live? In a cowshed outside Kalasin? Thailand's big cities are full of middle class people who are not "pseudo-elite", whatever that might mean.

[Fat Haggis]

There is plenty of working/bar girls out there who make over 30K a month, would you class them as Middle Class, or judge them based on what they do to make a living?

[Docno]

I think there's a grain of truth to what you say. The elites who have been running this country since year zero are not stupid. They know that when a middle class emerges in a country, it is often lined up against the old elite because the elite represents an exclusionary ceiling... just look at the American and French Revolutions. They were middle class revolutions (though the poor were recruited for the front lines). In Thailand's case, the elite was able to convince the middle class that their interests were aligned in opposition to the great unwashed masses and the bogeyman, Thaksin, prodding them on like a herd of dim-witted buffalo.They've bought into the idea that, arm in arm with the elite, only they can take care of the country and protect the royal institution. And so democracy must be controlled...

So no chance that they just get peeved at seeing their tax money being wasted and stolen by elected criminals? Or that having those criminals propose granting themselves an amnesty to cover their crimes, past and still being committed, was just too corrupt?

Nope - no chance. Did you read the article? These scions of the middle class think that the numerical majority of their country are too stupid to make decisions. They openly admit it. These students are not worried about their tax money -- what taxes are they paying? -- they're worried about loss of power, control, and privilege. In fact, using university students for this informal study was unintentionally brilliant in the sense that it factors out the justifications you're giving. These students don't pay taxes. But they do see the threat to their power and privilege....

Didn't you have parents? Or were they so uncommunicative that you learned nothing from them?

Learned to think for myself at an early age (well, maybe early relative to you). Refused to go to church anymore by 15 to my mother's consternation and distanced myself so much from my father's conservative politics that it came close to ruining our relationship. So no, I was definitely not a clone of my parents, and yes, I was more communicative on some of these matters--religion and politics--than they would have liked.

[sandrew33]

Indeed. 50k per month should do it.

How many people in the country actually earn that much and where do they reside?

All over the country.

Loads in Bangkok. Particularly if you're talking household income.

As has been mentioned elsewhere there are plenty of Thais shopping in places like Bangna. Go to IKEA on the weekend - packed with 95% Thais. They aren't shopping through those shops in the volume they are on 20k a month.

Even in a place like Pattaya their are loads of Thai owned businesses, including small business making way more than 50k a month. Just look around.

There really do seem to be a lot of guys on this board that have a very narrow and shallow view of Thailand that I just don't get if they've lived here for any length of time.

[rubl]

It's an insidious irony that fools claim the Thais like being held hostage .

And quote the hostage takers Polls to support their claims.

It's bordering on pathetic that their hatreds for a political party extend to do away with democracy in order to be at ease in their host country.

Perhaps when they are told to get out minus their money and property , they will reconsider their blind faith at the departure lounge .

These things never end well.

And repeating propaganda here is useless .

The international community will destroy this rule -

What happens in the mean time is what's concerning.

The elites don't represent the Thai people or its governance in any legal sense .

Wait until the bans and sanctions kick in.

Eventually the Americans will crush this rebellious attempt at hijacking democracy .

They won't permit the Chinese union and take over.

End of story

The 'elites', the old elites or the new elites?

Anyway, good to know that we can count on America to start another war, this time in S-E Asia. Now I only wonder how representative you are for 'America's ideas and opinions.

[JAG]

Do the middle-class want a democracy where only the middle-class can vote ?

Yes,that just about sums it up.

[Cardiff1963]

Getting more and more like the USA, next they'll be tapping everyone's communication and enacting the patriot act

[JAG]

There is plenty of working/bar girls out there who make over 30K a month, would you class them as Middle Class, or judge them based on what they do to make a living?

Stop causing trouble Haggis. You know perfectly well that they are not " well educated; chula, thammasat, ABAC,............"

Edited April 28, 2015 by JAG

[Fat Haggis]

There is plenty of working/bar girls out there who make over 30K a month, would you class them as Middle Class, or judge them based on what they do to make a living?

Stop causing trouble Haggis. You know perfectly well that they are not " well educated; chula, thammasat, ABAC,............"

My father long ago was told that it was impossible to go against the tide at a particular bridge when he was skippering a private Yacht for a client, till one day he watched a pair of swans hug the shoreline and use eddies to paddle past a raging torrent of water, so he took his vessel as close to the shore as he could and followed the swans and successfully navigated his way under the bridge against the current safely. The other skippers always said it was impossible, he proved them wrong that by thinking outside the box he couold indeed defy what was Always thought impossible.

Moral of that story ? Going against the flow and against the odds can be done with a little bit of thought. Thailand always seems to be going against the flow. ?

[rijb]

Getting more and more like the USA, next they'll be tapping everyone's communication and enacting the patriot act

And they use the schools to keep them dumb. Kinda like the school you probably attended.

[rijb]

It's an insidious irony that fools claim the Thais like being held hostage .

And quote the hostage takers Polls to support their claims.

It's bordering on pathetic that their hatreds for a political party extend to do away with democracy in order to be at ease in their host country.

Perhaps when they are told to get out minus their money and property , they will reconsider their blind faith at the departure lounge .

These things never end well.

And repeating propaganda here is useless .

The international community will destroy this rule -

What happens in the mean time is what's concerning.

The elites don't represent the Thai people or its governance in any legal sense .

Wait until the bans and sanctions kick in.

Eventually the Americans will crush this rebellious attempt at hijacking democracy .

They won't permit the Chinese union and take over.

End of story

The 'elites', the old elites or the new elites?

Anyway, good to know that we can count on America to start another war, this time in S-E Asia. Now I only wonder how representative you are for 'America's ideas and opinions.

What do you represent?

[rubl]

It's an insidious irony that fools claim the Thais like being held hostage .

And quote the hostage takers Polls to support their claims.

It's bordering on pathetic that their hatreds for a political party extend to do away with democracy in order to be at ease in their host country.

Perhaps when they are told to get out minus their money and property , they will reconsider their blind faith at the departure lounge .

These things never end well.

And repeating propaganda here is useless .

The international community will destroy this rule -

What happens in the mean time is what's concerning.

The elites don't represent the Thai people or its governance in any legal sense .

Wait until the bans and sanctions kick in.

Eventually the Americans will crush this rebellious attempt at hijacking democracy .

They won't permit the Chinese union and take over.

End of story

The 'elites', the old elites or the new elites?

Anyway, good to know that we can count on America to start another war, this time in S-E Asia. Now I only wonder how representative you are for 'America's ideas and opinions.

What do you represent?

Strictly speaking not 'something' but only myself, just like you and pluto. That's is assuming all only represent themselves. Of course some may have an opinion which is shared by others. If there are 'lots' of those others, then the single opinion could be regarded as somewhat representative. IMHO

Edited April 28, 2015 by rubl

[baboon]

It's an insidious irony that fools claim the Thais like being held hostage .

And quote the hostage takers Polls to support their claims.

It's bordering on pathetic that their hatreds for a political party extend to do away with democracy in order to be at ease in their host country.

Perhaps when they are told to get out minus their money and property , they will reconsider their blind faith at the departure lounge .

These things never end well.

And repeating propaganda here is useless .

The international community will destroy this rule -

What happens in the mean time is what's concerning.

The elites don't represent the Thai people or its governance in any legal sense .

Wait until the bans and sanctions kick in.

Eventually the Americans will crush this rebellious attempt at hijacking democracy .

They won't permit the Chinese union and take over.

End of story

The 'elites', the old elites or the new elites?

Anyway, good to know that we can count on America to start another war, this time in S-E Asia. Now I only wonder how representative you are for 'America's ideas and opinions.

What do you represent?

Strictly speaking not 'something' but only myself, just like you and pluto. That's is assuming all only represent themselves. Of course some may have an opinion which is shared by others. If there are 'lots' of those others, then the single opinion could be regarded as somewhat representative. IMHO

So vague a response as to be meaningless. A better question to ask rubl would be 'What do you stand for', not that you would get a much clearer answer, I suppose..

Edited April 28, 2015 by baboon

[rubl]

The 'elites', the old elites or the new elites?

Anyway, good to know that we can count on America to start another war, this time in S-E Asia. Now I only wonder how representative you are for 'America's ideas and opinions.

What do you represent?

Strictly speaking not 'something' but only myself, just like you and pluto. That's is assuming all only represent themselves. Of course some may have an opinion which is shared by others. If there are 'lots' of those others, then the single opinion could be regarded as somewhat representative. IMHO

So vague a response as to be meaningless. A better question to ask rubl would be 'What do you stand for', not that you would get a much clearer answer, I suppose..

Rather than asking what I stand for you might ask 'what do you believe in". The answer would be "freedom, equality, democracy, education" and all in moderation as with 7++ billion people on this one Earth you simply need rules. I would assume you believe in something similar?

[rijb]

I agree. But, not in that order. I believe in education, without moderation.

[rubl]

I agree. But, not in that order. I believe in education, without moderation.

It's getting a bit off topic, although still within the "controlled democracy' I hope.

For me education should be modelled in the sense that 5-year olds you tell shorter, less detailed versions than 12 or 17-year olds. Also you may have lengthy discussions on how much to have in the 'standard' curriculum and what should be left for higher level studies or be accessable by those interested, or old enough, or just everybody. For an easy example, should materiel from the Nazi Concentration Camps be part of later years curriculum and if so to what level? Should "Mein Kampf" be freely available? No doubt there are other examples. Should photos depicting horrors be freely available as part of education? How about sex and close to it 'perversions' (ask ten people you might get ten different answers on what 'perversion' is).

All part of what I believe in as should be managed, somehow. It may disappoint our baboon, but I have no 100 page academic treaty to describe my believes neither will I make one. Terribly sorry and all that.

PS almost forgot, I didn't put the elements in order of importance, just in order they sprung up in my mind. Difficult to do ordering as all four elements are related.

Edited April 28, 2015 by rubl

[baboon]

"Rather than asking what I stand for you might ask 'What do you believe in...."

I might, rubl, but I didn't. Maybe answer what you are asked, not what you feel like answering.

Edited April 28, 2015 by baboon

[Thai at Heart]

Indeed. 50k per month should do it.

How many people in the country actually earn that much and where do they reside?

All over the country.

Loads in Bangkok. Particularly if you're talking household income.

As has been mentioned elsewhere there are plenty of Thais shopping in places like Bangna. Go to IKEA on the weekend - packed with 95% Thais. They aren't shopping through those shops in the volume they are on 20k a month.

Even in a place like Pattaya their are loads of Thai owned businesses, including small business making way more than 50k a month. Just look around.

There really do seem to be a lot of guys on this board that have a very narrow and shallow view of Thailand that I just don't get if they've lived here for any length of time.

Mate, I lived and worked there for 18 years. If you want a measure of a typical company where people earn 50k, in my old company, the general manager and the factory manager had more than 50k. With 800 labour. So, the fact that in Bangkok there are 1mn people above 50k, makes them, 1mn in 30mn workers. You do the maths.....The car industry has some of the best paid workers in the country, and with all their bonuses thrown in barely make 50k. There are millions of office workers in Bangkok making between 20 and 50k. Millions.

Yes, Bangkok has more wealth than the rest of the country, but even at 50k baht, that is 1000 GBP per month. By middle class standards, that is barely making a living to be honest......

Edited April 28, 2015 by Thai at Heart

[LannaGuy]

Rather than asking what I stand for you might ask 'what do you believe in". The answer would be "freedom, equality, democracy, education" and all in moderation as with 7++ billion people on this one Earth you simply need rules. I would assume you believe in something similar?

Gobbles would have been proud of you as your posts demonstrate the opposite of 'freedom'

your 'you simply need rules' sounds just like the Khmer Rouge

are you so proud to be a fascist? because that IS what you ARE

[tbthailand]

"Rather than asking what I stand for you might ask 'What do you believe in...."

I might, rubl, but I didn't. Maybe answer what you are asked, not what you feel like answering.

the local junta-hugger from Holland claims that he believes in "freedom, equality, democracy, education"

[NongKhaiKid]

Who attended the seminar, the public who should have a say or the people who have the say ?

[sandrew33]

Indeed. 50k per month should do it.

How many people in the country actually earn that much and where do they reside?

All over the country.

Loads in Bangkok. Particularly if you're talking household income.

As has been mentioned elsewhere there are plenty of Thais shopping in places like Bangna. Go to IKEA on the weekend - packed with 95% Thais. They aren't shopping through those shops in the volume they are on 20k a month.

Even in a place like Pattaya their are loads of Thai owned businesses, including small business making way more than 50k a month. Just look around.

There really do seem to be a lot of guys on this board that have a very narrow and shallow view of Thailand that I just don't get if they've lived here for any length of time.

Mate, I lived and worked there for 18 years. If you want a measure of a typical company where people earn 50k, in my old company, the general manager and the factory manager had more than 50k. With 800 labour. So, the fact that in Bangkok there are 1mn people above 50k, makes them, 1mn in 30mn workers. You do the maths.....The car industry has some of the best paid workers in the country, and with all their bonuses thrown in barely make 50k. There are millions of office workers in Bangkok making between 20 and 50k. Millions.

Yes, Bangkok has more wealth than the rest of the country, but even at 50k baht, that is 1000 GBP per month. By middle class standards, that is barely making a living to be honest......

I was responding to a specific question about how many make 50k a month.

I also mentioned household income.

I run a business across countries and we have an affiliate in Thailand. Our university graduates start on 26k, within 5 years they are comfortably past 50k. They partner up and that's household income of 100k.

The point of this whole theme is that most of us can run through the rich Thai families. The elites. The upper class. But below that there is a substantial group of middle class by regional standards. (Give that the largest costs are food and shelter, your UK comparison is pointless unless you also adjust the cost of those 2 things for Thais. A Thai can purchase both items for considerably less than the costs of both in say outer London.)

Again, this isn't entirely restricted to Bangkok. There are Thais making good money across the country. Reports available via Google will show that Entrepreneurs are making 50% more than employees and if you look at the wages in this link:

http://www.adecco.co.th/Uploads/Knowledge-Center-Thought-Leadership/Thailand-Salary-Guide/Adecco-Thailand-Salary-Guide-2015.pdf

... that's makes for potentially a lot of people making well upwards of 50k a month.

Just in my own social circles here in Bangkok I can't think of too many Thai who aren't making more than 50k a month and a lot doing way better than that. They are either professional or quasi professional or sales/marketing working in office jobs.

The auto sector you mentioned earlier is heavily over represented by manual workers who, much like basic services jobs, are very lowly paid. That's not in dispute. But even if there are only 1 million households in Bangkok that are comfortably "middle class" by regional standards, that's a chunky middle class in a city of 8.5million people.

You were here 18 years when? Did you work in Bangkok? Professional role?

I took a job here in Silom in professional services in 2008. I worked with Thais on similar incomes. The base income was just short of 200,000 baht a month. There are loads of people on these sorts of incomes in professional/corporate roles in BKK. These aren't the elites, but they are the middle class that people refer to in these discussions.

They are everywhere ...

Edited April 29, 2015 by sandrew33

[LindaLovelace]

Wealthy minorities always prefer a democracy they control. Of course, that's not democracy, it's a plutocratic oligarchy. Hey, Thailand could model itself after the US!