Clinton says US must face 'hard truths' about guns, race

[sgtsabai]

Here is a little food for thought. Although I believe some of our forum members will deny, deny, deny. Please, do read the Ebony article first. Some of you white folks aren't going to like what it says but it is very correct.

http://www.ebony.com/news-views/white-silence-kills-9-in-charleston-503#.VYaNjtnGOUn

http://nationofchange.us8.list-manage.com/track/click?u=d8c536d78fef3dd6b12305a66&id=0d72f51d04&e=3961fa3a5d

http://org2.salsalabs.com/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=sX0dDv9CdVeD4Df/G2ZZUxYdtAlHmMO3

http://elink.thedailybeast.com/4e5568b3e018bee76c353db32qnaw.3e9h/VYWunkmO2bm7Z48sC4416

http://elink.thedailybeast.com/4e5568b3e018bee76c353db32qnaw.3e9h/VYWunkmO2bm7Z48wCeb46

http://org.salsalabs.com/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=adw5XfB8UwXyCcthran0iHovtg6MvKGe

http://www.alternet.org/dylann-roof-not-alone-racism-persists-across-generations?akid=13231.85778.nmq_Qf&rd=1&src=newsletter1038105&t=1

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/dylann-roof-america

http://fair.us10.list-manage.com/track/click?u=8c573daa3ad72f4a095505b58&id=5843328d81&e=2f816403c7

[MaeJoMTB]

Here is a little food for thought. Although I believe some of our forum members will deny, deny, deny. Please, do read the Ebony article first. Some of you white folks aren't going to like what it says but it is very correct. http://www.ebony.com/news-views/white-silence-kills-9-in-charleston-503#.VYaNjtnGOUn http://nationofchange.us8.list-manage.com/track/click?u=d8c536d78fef3dd6b12305a66&id=0d72f51d04&e=3961fa3a5d http://org2.salsalabs.com/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=sX0dDv9CdVeD4Df/G2ZZUxYdtAlHmMO3 http://elink.thedailybeast.com/4e5568b3e018bee76c353db32qnaw.3e9h/VYWunkmO2bm7Z48sC4416 http://elink.thedailybeast.com/4e5568b3e018bee76c353db32qnaw.3e9h/VYWunkmO2bm7Z48wCeb46 http://org.salsalabs.com/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=adw5XfB8UwXyCcthran0iHovtg6MvKGe http://www.alternet.org/dylann-roof-not-alone-racism-persists-across-generations?akid=13231.85778.nmq_Qf&rd=1&src=newsletter1038105&t=1 http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/dylann-roof-america http://fair.us10.list-manage.com/track/click?u=8c573daa3ad72f4a095505b58&id=5843328d81&e=2f816403c7

Read it and thought, surely Arabs are the 'children of Africa' too!

Last time I looked Egypt was in Africa.

"to exist anywhere in this world that has been touched by the rule of Westerners and Arabs who often share little but the conviction that the children of Africa are inferior.

Read more at EBONY http://www.ebony.com/news-views/white-silence-kills-9-in-charleston-503#ixzz3dh6narlt "

Edited June 21, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[F430murci]

Racism runs deep in America and as the old white guys see control slipping from their grasp they pass their hatred down to other generations. There are several racists on this forum but they cannot or will not admit it, even to themselves. Nor are they about to let facts and reality get in their way. There have been several studies that show faux viewers are even more ignorant and ill informed that those that don't even watch news. Not surprising and I suspect most have long passed ignorant and passed downward to just flat out stupid. With the rise of the "religious" right, teabaggers sponsored by the likes of the Koch (John Birch Society) brothers and right wing wackos that couldn't have gotten elected dog catcher back in the 60's, America has become a sick country. I'm not in favor of harsh gun laws but Hillary was right about one thing, America has to face the fact it is a racist country. Racism is worse now than when I grew up in the bible belt Texass, oh wait, that is 99.9% of Texass and the south. The most non-christian "christians" I've ever met and believe me, I was raised in the baptist church. My dad showed me where they lynched blacks on Main Street, where 'ol man Berwick shot down a black man for not pushing his vehicle out of the mud, and where the baptist preacher gunned down the police chief on Main St. My dad was there for that one. Yea, wonderful "christian" folks, NOT!

Mental illness runs deep everywhere. Thank goodness some of the most anti social crackpots have left the US. Sad part is, we are probably still supporting those cracks pots.

Edited June 21, 2015 by F430murci

[sgtsabai]

Thanks for showing your ignorance, where does it say Egypt is Arabic? Oh nothing does. Like I said, there are those that will continue to deny, deny, deny and denigrate black people because, well they are black. Yours is a typical right wing move, try to change what has been said to a different and demeaning context. Old trick but nice try.

[sgtsabai]

Like racism, the right wing mental illness, runs deep not just on this forum among a few right wing wackos but in the states as well. Take my word for it, you don't support anybody but yourself and your toys. You damn sure don't support me, never have, never will. I paid my way, unlike some little rich boys.

[arjunadawn]

Yet following Clinton's evolving use of the fictional "White Privilege" she later went on to connect all this gun control hogwash to white people. This is not her meme she is simply cashing in on a progressive decisive meme launched a recently by the democrat/progressives to divide and generate an issue for which to hold the white house- race. It is women, race, etc, always. This narrative has successfully fractured America into various voting blocks rather than two monolithic blocks. In such narratives democrats seem to win.

Race as an issue in the upcoming election is not really a bridge to far to presume. It is apparent that speeches and rhetoric contrary to data and facts are being spewed with increasing disregard for where the verbal angst lands. It is a couched provocation to violence either passively endorsed or otherwise made permissive, as in the case of Obama and Holder's constant meddling in race. Clinton is just picking up the hoe to till the soil left planted earlier. It is to the point that when black people shortly and openly start killing whites there will be marginal outrage, though some, and massive exculpatory commentary on the victim's plight, not the dead. When white people do this as a result of unrelenting barrage of media and policy and provocation it will enhance the victim narrative of black America and result in overwhelming state response.

I rarely conjecture but am doing so above. It is risky but I cannot see too many different paths ahead. I am 100% sure race is being leveraged for politics. How each responds or both together will speak volumes about what hope the US has left. It is not unintentional that this racial strife is fostered at a time when black America will first feel the oppression of uncontrolled illegal invasion.

http://www.infowars.com/hillary-clinton-denounces-white-privilege-calls-for-taking-guns-from-those-whose-hearts-are-filled-with-hate/

[lostoday]

i.e., the far out radical reactionary ideological right.the right have no history before the Great Society of any meaning or significance. It's all a leftist plot way out over there on the marginal ideological and dogmatic radical Republican right.

NOT.

Stop with the extremist right wing political propaganda.

Forgive the edit but I only wanted to respond to one point in the above post.

The Right has gone through five distinct historical stages: (i) the reactionary right, which sought a return to aristocracy and established religion; (ii) the moderate right, who sought limited government and distrusted intellectuals; (iii) the radical right, who favored a romantic and aggressive nationalism; (iv) the extreme right, who proposed anti-immigration policies and implicit racism; and (v) the neo-liberal right, who sought to combine a belief in a market economy and economic deregulation with the traditional Right-wing beliefs in patriotism, élitism, and law and order.

The political terms Right and Leftwere first used during the French Revolution (1789–99)

https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Right-wing_politics

The rise of the welfare state in the 1960s contributed greatly to the demise of the black family as a stable institution. The out-of-wedlock birth rate among African Americans today is 73%, three times higher than it was prior to the War on Poverty. For Hispanics, whites, and Asians, the illegitimacy ratesare 53%, 26%, and 17%, respectively.

Children raised in fatherless homes are far more likely to grow up poor and to eventually engage in criminal behavior, than their peers who are raised in two-parent homes.

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=1672

Edited June 21, 2015 by lostoday

[sgtsabai]

No doubt race is being leveraged in politics. The right wing i.e. Republicans are doing everything in their power to marginalize the black, brown and poor vote. Come on Arjunadawn, I've great respect for your knowledge of the middle east, but infowars? That is nothing but right wing conspiracy bull crap being spewed. White privilege is very, very real only many refuse to recognize it for racist reasons, whether they can admit it to themselves or not. Yes, Hillary will try to get the anti-gun nuts to vote for her by using this, she isn't beyond using anything to get elected.

[arjunadawn]

"White privilege is very, very real only many refuse to recognize it for racist reasons, whether they can admit it to themselves or not." How convenient; they have white privilege even if they dont accept or note it. Wow! If one submitted the assertion that white people had more opportunities, less resistance, etc., in society and therefore... this might be more agreeable. However, the assertion and labeling is currently hand in glove with leveraging political objectives and this renders the observation suspect, at best. "White Privilege" in association with the militant assertion black people cannot be racist because... leads to all manner of injury to a vast swath of people.

Infowars? It makes no difference who speaks. Even a clown has his story. What counts are facts that either corroborate our observations and experience, or triangulate data from other sources. My opinion has no validity because of Infowars or any other. I rest comfortably that my observations are meritorious on their own. I may not always make my argument the better one but I hope I can demonstrate that often there is another valid point of view.

When you state such things as an entire party marginalizing racially your position seems more plausible with examples. I keep returning to the notion that x people are y, even if they cannot admit it to themselves. Wow! This is the ultimate amulet to silence discourse. I thought declaring "Islamophobia" was the pinnacle of ad hominem. I said these things without once impugning you. Why does it seem that so many need to personalize their positions to enhance the argument they assert?

Note: My response to you is in heartfelt fun, not nasty.

Edited June 21, 2015 by arjunadawn

[sgtsabai]

Some good reading from non right wing hate spewing sites. http://www.alternet.org/dylann-roof-may-have-been-radicalized-website-group-associated-southern-gop-politicians?akid=13232.85778.-62PY6&rd=1&src=newsletter1038135&t=21

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/18/why-the-gop-hates-talking-about-hate-conservatives-don-t-want-to-confront-racism-in-charleston-shooting.html?via=newsletter&source=CSPMedition

http://act.alternet.org/go/61904?t=9&akid=13230.85778.R0u1pm

http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/racist-policing-after-church-massacre-white-suspect-returned-private-plane?akid=13232.85778.-62PY6&rd=1&src=newsletter1038135&t=17

[sgtsabai]

I know arjunadawn we have more agreements than disagreements and I'd drink with you any time and you know in another time and place I'd have your 6. Voter ID, gerrymandering's, these changes began immediately after the gang of 5 on what used to be a Supreme Court struck down the voting rights law. Well documented. Even Republicans have been quoted as saying they were doing these things to insure Republican elections as blacks, browns, poor, students, tend to vote Democratic and they don't tend to have the necessary ID required by some states. There is little to no voter fraud, there is voter suppression by the right wing.

[lostoday]

I really don't know why it is necessary to do all of this hate stuff throwing out pejoratives about right and left wing.

One guy told me the right thought Black families disintegrated as a result of the welfare state and anyone knows that is a left wing mantra.

But what is the difference if he is right or wrong. The point I was making and expected to discuss was racism since LBJ. Who cares what position each side takes.

It is daytime in the daytime even if a right wing person says it is not. It is nighttime in the night even though a left wing person disagrees. It is not the fact that the person is on the left or right wing or gets his news from NBC or FOX. It is the accuracy of the news or view that is the salient question.

This place is getting more and more like a, "you're stupid because you are a A. RIght winger, B Left winger, C. American, D Armenian. E. Bulgarian. Who cares the right answer is still the right answer regardless of who says it.

Edited June 21, 2015 by lostoday

[Johpa]

So people who strangle someone to death should have their hands removed? Someone who knives a person to death gets all sharp objects outlawed?

Baby, you just shot yourself in the foot (pun intended). Dumb@$$!!!

Your logical reasoning in this instance is absolutely pathetic. If you can't appreciate the power differential between some hate-filled mentally unbalanced moron with a modern firearm and that same mentally unbalanced hate-filled moron who is unarmed or armed with a pre-industrial weapon then you are the biggest Dumb@$$!!! around. And that is why the pre-industrial laws regarding firearms, including the second amendment in the US, must be modified as they are totally, and tragically, obsolete. Guns allow any idiot, with nearly no training whatsoever, to indiscriminately murder people in mass. Without the gun, the ability to kill even a single individual is very difficult indeed. The fact that one can, with effort and intent, murder without a gun does not change the argument. It is the possession of the gun that enables death with ease. Alas, there is no arguing with a Dumb@$$!!!.

[mopar71]

So people who strangle someone to death should have their hands removed? Someone who knives a person to death gets all sharp objects outlawed?

Baby, you just shot yourself in the foot (pun intended). Dumb@$$!!!

Dum@$$ analogy, (to borrow your term). Lets say guns were outlawed 5 years ago. Do you think the tens of thousands of murders that have occurred in that time would still have occurred but with a knife?

Guns are already outlawed in some cities but that doesn't stop gun deaths. Oddly enough, they have more there than anywhere else.

[arjunadawn]

Hi SgtSabai

The site you offer does the exact same thing, it spews hatred by association. The CCC is a markedly supremacist cite. The Southern Poverty Law Center is a political hit piece functioning as a leftist clearing house for hate itself. Morris Dees has a long history of hate related to him, and controversy. Just because he wraps himself in the left does not make his assertions always correct, though some are. The links broadly associate CCC with the GOP but offer little of value toward this end. I suppose its fair you offer your perspective as I have earlier stated I think the race issue is being leveraged by the left. I get it. You just have a different perspective.

It is apparent to me that race and division are key elements for long term democratic hegemony, from Latinos to black America.

[lostoday]

So people who strangle someone to death should have their hands removed? Someone who knives a person to death gets all sharp objects outlawed?

Baby, you just shot yourself in the foot (pun intended). Dumb@$$!!!

Your logical reasoning in this instance is absolutely pathetic. If you can't appreciate the power differential between some hate-filled mentally unbalanced moron with a modern firearm and that same mentally unbalanced hate-filled moron who is unarmed or armed with a pre-industrial weapon then you are the biggest Dumb@$$!!! around. And that is why the pre-industrial laws regarding firearms, including the second amendment in the US, must be modified as they are totally, and tragically, obsolete. Guns allow any idiot, with nearly no training whatsoever, to indiscriminately murder people in mass. Without the gun, the ability to kill even a single individual is very difficult indeed. The fact that one can, with effort and intent, murder without a gun does not change the argument. It is the possession of the gun that enables death with ease. Alas, there is no arguing with a Dumb@$$!!!.

So the hard truth about guns is, "the founding fathers would not have allowed gun ownership if the rounds per minute increased from 3 to 33?

I can get off 12 shots in 4 minutes with a musket available in 1776. Or if I had two shotguns I could put 96 lead balls in the air per minute. That is pre industrial firepower. Do you think you can do that much better today?

[arjunadawn]

The 2nd Amendment is not a law.

[lostoday]

The 2nd Amendment is not a law.

The United States Constitution is the supreme law of the United States of America. In case you didn't know the amendments are part of the Constitution.

Edited June 21, 2015 by lostoday

[F430murci]

Hi SgtSabai

The site you offer does the exact same thing, it spews hatred by association. The CCC is a markedly supremacist cite. The Southern Poverty Law Center is a political hit piece functioning as a leftist clearing house for hate itself. Morris Dees has a long history of hate related to him, and controversy. Just because he wraps himself in the left does not make his assertions always correct, though some are. The links broadly associate CCC with the GOP but offer little of value toward this end. I suppose its fair you offer your perspective as I have earlier stated I think the race issue is being leveraged by the left. I get it. You just have a different perspective.

It is apparent to me that race and division are key elements for long term democratic hegemony, from Latinos to black America.

Yep, dude is full of rage and hate. Viet Nam screwed a bunch of people up. God I can not even imagine and I am so thankful I was born in 67 and missed that draft bs. Forcing young men to encounter and live through hell on a daily basis is definitely a dark side of our history.

Race and gun issues do need to be addressed. Black gang bangers, many at very young ages, terrorize good kids and good people trying to live right and rise above the fray. WTH is wrong with society when you have to have metal detectors to keep guns out of elementary schools. News flash, they don't have to have metal detectors in normal schools that are not subject to bussing or have a heavy black population.

[arjunadawn]

It remains correct that the constitution is not a law in the nature of what is being discussed, changing laws to affect gun control. The hair you and I are splitting is agreed, it doesnt need to be split further. It is an exceptional act beyond legislation, that is my only point.

[lostoday]

It remains correct that the constitution is not a law in the nature of what is being discussed, changing laws to affect gun control. The hair you and I are splitting is agreed, it doesnt need to be split further. It is an exceptional act beyond legislation, that is my only point.

You got it backwards. The Constitution is the top law and laws go down from the top. The Constitution says it is legal to own guns and it goes down from there with Constitutional scholars defining exactly who what where and when.

So it is not at all correct that the Constitution is not a law, exactly the opposite is true.

[arjunadawn]

It remains correct that the constitution is not a law in the nature of what is being discussed, changing laws to affect gun control. The hair you and I are splitting is agreed, it doesnt need to be split further. It is an exceptional act beyond legislation, that is my only point.

You got it backwards. The Constitution is the top law and laws go down from the top. The Constitution says it is legal to own guns and it goes down from there with Constitutional scholars defining exactly who what where and when.

So it is not at all correct that the Constitution is not a law, exactly the opposite is true.

Its highly unlikely I got it backwards though the context was lost for my response. In responding to "Guns are already outlawed in some cities but that doesn't stop gun deaths" my brief point was to suggest that guns cannot simply be outlawed because it is not a legislative action, in the common sense. If this is unclear and you need to hang your hat here, feel free. We are both agreeing its just that my point previously was apparently not clear because I responded to a post without quoting it and others inserted in the meanwhile.

"In the nature of what is being discussed..." and it most certainly follows the mechanics of acting upon the Constitution follow a very different track then legislation in the common sense.

While you and I appear to disagree, we do not here. You are correct. I just do not state my position clearly.

Edited June 21, 2015 by arjunadawn

[Publicus]

Yet following Clinton's evolving use of the fictional "White Privilege" she later went on to connect all this gun control hogwash to white people. This is not her meme she is simply cashing in on a progressive decisive meme launched a recently by the democrat/progressives to divide and generate an issue for which to hold the white house- race. It is women, race, etc, always. This narrative has successfully fractured America into various voting blocks rather than two monolithic blocks. In such narratives democrats seem to win.

Race as an issue in the upcoming election is not really a bridge to far to presume. It is apparent that speeches and rhetoric contrary to data and facts are being spewed with increasing disregard for where the verbal angst lands. It is a couched provocation to violence either passively endorsed or otherwise made permissive, as in the case of Obama and Holder's constant meddling in race. Clinton is just picking up the hoe to till the soil left planted earlier. It is to the point that when black people shortly and openly start killing whites there will be marginal outrage, though some, and massive exculpatory commentary on the victim's plight, not the dead. When white people do this as a result of unrelenting barrage of media and policy and provocation it will enhance the victim narrative of black America and result in overwhelming state response.

I rarely conjecture but am doing so above. It is risky but I cannot see too many different paths ahead. I am 100% sure race is being leveraged for politics. How each responds or both together will speak volumes about what hope the US has left. It is not unintentional that this racial strife is fostered at a time when black America will first feel the oppression of uncontrolled illegal invasion.

http://www.infowars.com/hillary-clinton-denounces-white-privilege-calls-for-taking-guns-from-those-whose-hearts-are-filled-with-hate/

Idle hands predict race wars started by.....black racists.....

[sgtsabai]

for the little rich boy, I don't hate but I do rage against racists and right wing bigots of which there are a few on this forum and far too many in the states. To bad some of you missed the draft. I didn't, I volunteered not just for USMC but for Vietnam. Maybe some of you might have gotten a real education had you been so inclined. Then again, the Marines are looking for a few GOOD MEN. Now that we have all fallen in the tried and proven right wing trap of changing the subject by attacking the person perhaps we can get back on subject with some logic. Oops, I forgot, there is no logic in right wing.

[Johpa]

No doubt race is being leveraged in politics. The right wing i.e. Republicans are doing everything in their power to marginalize the black, brown and poor vote.

The extreme right, which is now mainstream with the backing of the Republican Party, is only one facet of racism in politics. There is also the divide and conquer element relative to class warfare in the United States where the lower economic classes are intentionally kept in locked battle over race, religion, and a host of social issues by being baited by the propaganda machine of FOX News. Any issue other than politicians talking about the real economic issues facing American society after the takeover of the government by corporate America after the release of the Louis Powell memo, which was a call-to-arms and reversed the benefits of Roosevelt's New Deal, is beneficial to the ruling class. Always ask the timeless economic question on all matters: "cui bono?".

[lostoday]

for the little rich boy, I don't hate but I do rage against racists and right wing bigots of which there are a few on this forum and far too many in the states. To bad some of you missed the draft. I didn't, I volunteered not just for USMC but for Vietnam. Maybe some of you might have gotten a real education had you been so inclined. Then again, the Marines are looking for a few GOOD MEN. Now that we have all fallen in the tried and proven right wing trap of changing the subject by attacking the person perhaps we can get back on subject with some logic. Oops, I forgot, there is no logic in right wing.

There are a lot of men who served honorably in Vietnam on this forum from all parts of the political spectrum.

[chuckd]

The only ones that continually scream racism at the top of their voices are the wild eyed liberals in the crowd.

It's simply deflection to take the topic away from their star candidate who's feet of clay are beginning to dissolve.

Here is the latest photo of Hillary facing some hard truths of her own:

[sgtsabai]

And exactly what is your point? Hillary is a neocon/neoliberal and a friend of the right wing except on social matters.

[chuckd]

And exactly what is your point? Hillary is a neocon/neoliberal and a friend of the right wing except on social matters.

Try reading my post a few more times. The point is hidden in there.

Edited June 22, 2015 by chuckd

[KonaRain]

I heard journalist Jim Mars the other night..U.S. is gun merchant to the world..5% from Russia, 3% from China..all the rest from U.S..