New Visa Rules - Why? A Different Speculation

[wondering]

Let`s face it.

As anyone knows who´s been around the block a few times, the bureaucratic mind set is more or less the same all over the world.

Now the global community has officially been put on notice that - in contrast to the public relations smiley face image projected at huge expense, “Amazing Thailand - Land of Smiles”, the Thai bureaucracy is no exception -- for better or worse.

So, what is really going on here?

Is it really about getting rid of foreigners or some folks teaching English without papers?

On the surface it may appear that way. But maybe there is more to it than meets the eye, on a deeper level. All of this is speculation of course, and maybe totally wrong...

As anyone knows who has dealt with one, bureaucrats generally (there are exceptions) like to retaliate when they feel their ego has been bruised. And that, again generalized, seems to be the case when they feel that someone is ignoring rules they wrote. (Especially male-) ego seems to think like this:

“ Oh? You dare to do different than I said you should? Ok, we´ll see to that...Let me show you who´s boss here...” Frustrating and boring as it may be, is that not the reality of it?

As bureaucratic minds around the world are demonstrating on a daily basis, reason is rarely part of the equation when bruised egos react (usually under the guise of “national security, protecting public, country..society..economy”).

Meanwhile, let´s take a hypothetical Thai business owner, who, after giving it some thought and common sense, may look at this from a different perspective, perhaps one similar to this:

“Ok, let´s see here, I am told that of 10 Million tourists a year bringing us money - helping to pay our salaries and livelihood - a handful keeps coming back more often than others. (How many? Does anyone really know?. Shall we guess? Ok, for example, if a total of 5000 people a year were doing the visa run thing, that´s a whopping 0.05%!! One (!) of every 2000 visitors! If it were double, 10.000 “visa runners”, that´s one out of 1000 visitors!

Our hypothetical business owner continues to ponder: I am further told that from that handful - namely one out of every 2000 people - again a handful (what percentage of the 10 Million?) teaches us and our kids English while here. Which is the kind of help we very much need in order to be able to hold our own in the future, competing with world markets and other tourist destinations which are constantly increasing marketing budgets to attract tourists away from us.

I am told that out of this fraction of total arrivals (what percentage of 10 Million? One out of 20.000? Less, more? ), some (how many? What percentage of 10 Million?) have been teaching us English while unable to show certain pieces of paper that bureaucrats say they should have.

Now my kingdoms bureaucracy has singled out that situation involving a mere handful of people, to justify new rules to affect 10 Million visitors a year and impacting the livelihood of some 60 Million Thais or so if arrivals are dropping as a result of these changes

Our Thai business owner keeps wondering...besides spending patterns, how will the new rules affect peoples ability to even get to Thailand in the future?

After all, airlines are responsible for passengers they bring. Anyone denied entry to the country has to be taken care of by the airline. With the new rules, how can an airline be sure a passenger will be allowed into the country?

What will happen when immigration decides that a passenger has already had their alloted share of days for this six month period? What if it is a matter of one day over? Two days?

What happens in cases where entry is denied based on day count? Will the airline take the passenger back home? Or will the ticket agent or travel agent go through passports and add up days at the office or counter before deciding if they can sell a ticket to Thailand?

The impact could be considerable. But the ego doesn´t care about that. One of its strongest characteristics seems to be that it does not engage the brain (if any) before acting. It simply does not consider the fact that actions have consequences.

(Is that why bureaucratic jobs do not always seem to attract only the wisest and most intelligent?)

“What a mess...” our Thai business owner thinks. “...all because of some bruised egos....”

Well of course, that Thai business owner is hypothetical. Very much so. Obviously.

A more real one would simply say “mai pen rai” and get on with life...

Perhaps we should do the same.

[astral]

So, what is really going on here?

I suspect it is a knee jerk reaction to a very small number of people who have got into Thailand,

quite legally I might add, when they have been wanted by the police elsewhere.

Is it really about getting rid of foreigners or some folks teaching English without papers?

It is not aimed at the run of the mill tourist.

If it is aimed at genuine teachers then it is very short sighted.

Many teachers are not paid enough to meet the work permit and visa requirements.

Pay them a reasonable rate then they can stay legally.

If not then the appalling standards of English in Thailand will slip even further down the drain.

After all, airlines are responsible for passengers they bring. Anyone denied entry to the country has to be taken care of by the airline. With the new rules, how can an airline be sure a passenger will be allowed into the country?

What will happen when immigration decides that a passenger has already had their alloted share of days for this six month period? What if it is a matter of one day over? Two days?

What happens in cases where entry is denied based on day count? Will the airline take the passenger back home? Or will the ticket agent or travel agent go through passports and add up days at the office or counter before deciding if they can sell a ticket to Thailand?

The airlines will have to worry as they get fined if a person is turned back. $1000 I believe

The impact could be considerable. But the ego doesn´t care about that. One of its strongest characteristics seems to be that it does not engage the brain (if any) before acting. It simply does not consider the fact that actions have consequences.

(Is that why bureaucratic jobs do not always seem to attract only the wisest and most intelligent?)

You said it.........

A more real one would simply say “mai pen rai” and get on with life...

Perhaps we should do the same.

We have little choice, other tahn abandoning LOS.

[IMA_FARANG]

So, what is really going on here?

I suspect it is a knee jerk reaction to a very small number of people who have got into Thailand,

quite legally I might add, when they have been wanted by the police elsewhere.

Is it really about getting rid of foreigners or some folks teaching English without papers?

It is not aimed at the run of the mill tourist.

If it is aimed at genuine teachers then it is very short sighted.

Many teachers are not paid enough to meet the work permit and visa requirements.

Pay them a reasonable rate then they can stay legally.

If not then the appalling standards of English in Thailand will slip even further down the drain.

After all, airlines are responsible for passengers they bring. Anyone denied entry to the country has to be taken care of by the airline. With the new rules, how can an airline be sure a passenger will be allowed into the country?

What will happen when immigration decides that a passenger has already had their alloted share of days for this six month period? What if it is a matter of one day over? Two days?

What happens in cases where entry is denied based on day count? Will the airline take the passenger back home? Or will the ticket agent or travel agent go through passports and add up days at the office or counter before deciding if they can sell a ticket to Thailand?

The airlines will have to worry as they get fined if a person is turned back. $1000 I believe

The impact could be considerable. But the ego doesn´t care about that. One of its strongest characteristics seems to be that it does not engage the brain (if any) before acting. It simply does not consider the fact that actions have consequences.

(Is that why bureaucratic jobs do not always seem to attract only the wisest and most intelligent?)

You said it.........

A more real one would simply say “mai pen rai” and get on with life...

Perhaps we should do the same.

We have little choice, other tahn abandoning LOS.

Ah c'mon guys this isn't rocket science.

Tourists with Visa On Entry don't pay into Thai immigration/consulate funds.

They want you to get a visa at a Thai consulate before you leave your country.

That way you pay the fee for the visa.

If you come up with a couple of Ha Loy baht, you get the visa.

That's what it is REALLY about.

No money, no honey.

[kmart]

Its near election time. Thailand is a very xenophobic country, and with the negative press just recently from a high-profile arrest of some <deleted> from the US; you'd have to expect some sort of reaction; even it is the usual wide-of-the-mark sweeping brushstroke.

Shooting yourself in the foot is a national characteristic here.

[OldAsiaHand]

Its near election time. Thailand is a very xenophobic country, and with the negative press just recently from a high-profile arrest of some <deleted> from the US; you'd have to expect some sort of reaction; even it is the usual wide-of-the-mark sweeping brushstroke.

Shooting yourself in the foot is a national characteristic here.

Ah, a breath of fresh air after all the self-important hullabaloo that's been spouted on TV about this topic. Thanks for the moment of straight-forward sanity. It really is pretty much that simple, isn't it?

[Nam Kao]

>>>A more real one would simply say “mai pen rai” and get on with life...

Yes but back in Blighty

[Ulysses G.]

Shooting yourself in the foot is a national characteristic here.

[britmaveric]

Karr debacle is what was in their minds when doing this - they will never admit it, but I think this was what spurred it on. Not mention I think long term stayers who were doing the free border runs weren't paying anything to the thai govt as normal visa holders do. So two fold Karr incident and a dosh issue.

Personally I think they will revise this when all is said and done. Think of it as a work in progress.

[crockett]

I suspect it is a knee jerk reaction to a very small number of people who have got into Thailand,

quite legally I might add, when they have been wanted by the police elsewhere.

[Ulysses G.]

Karr was a nut, but quite innocent of any major crimes. Looking at dirty pictures of children is sick, but far preferable to acting out his fantasies in real life.

The funny thing is that none of this "tightening up" would have ever affected someone like him, if he hadn't been famous for something that he didn't even do.

[thohts]

All the stories of rape, incest, and child fondling I hear about here and all of a sudden it's a problem because a foreigner might have been thinking about it (or may have done it).

I think as a 'rule' of thumb, if you're molested by a 'superior' then you're to keep your mouth shut. Or so this is what was implied to me.

Sick, in any case.

[The Skipper]

My take is the Govt. wants people to come here, only if they are short term tourists,

or have proof of the means to support oneself.

People that work, invest, married or retired won't have any problems.

The new rules target people that come as tourists, don't ever leave and have no visible means of support.

[britmaveric]

My take is the Govt. wants people to come here, only if they are short term tourists,

or have proof of the means to support oneself.

People that work, invest, married or retired won't have any problems.

The new rules target people that come as tourists, don't ever leave and have no visible means of support.

Maybe, but most have viable support coming from outside the kingdom, and spending quite a bit of dosh in the kingdom.

[lamphun]

The new rules target people that come as tourists, don't ever leave and have no visible means of support.

Perhaps but it also hits those who use Thailand as a base and work outside the country. The self employed consultant.

If they'd wanted to target those staying forever on 30 day waivers they should have dissallowed back to back entries, instead of this ill thought out mess.

Edited September 17, 2006 by lamphun

[Pakboong]

An explanation as to why the Thai goverment asked the United to States to leave in 1975 thereby forgoing something like $10 billion a year has stuck with me all these years and seems applicable here. The fellow offering me this opinion later became very powerful in this country and still sits very near the top of the Political Food Chain.

His view was that this money was going to the wrong people. It was empowering the poor and not serving the interests of the Urban Professionals who wanted to control the country. Seems these educated Thais never like seeing their kids at the same schools as the poor kids. They were seeing their kids at the doctors right next to the poor kids, etc.. What really irked the members of this power base was the poor ISSAN girls living in houses and driving cars that none of them could afford. Now this has festerd for years and has never reallly gone away. The economic recovery seems to have resulted in magnifying in this trend. These poor girls were buying up the resort areas with their Farang husbands and boyfriends.

This gentleman even linked the riots in October of 1973 to this very phenomonon. The poor were gaining power. He insisted that the ratio of wealth needed to be at 80-20 meaning the upper 20% of the food chain should control 80% of the wealth and of course, the bottom 80% should control 20%. The US government was building air bases, deep water ports, Army bases, roads and hiring labor and minimum skilled workers at 10 times what they would make in a comparable Thai business. If the balance shifts too far toward the poor, the urban professional has to suffer the loss of face and if the balance shifts too far the other way, often revolution results. Communism thrives when the balance shifts toward the wealthy.

The recent clamp down on land purchase, super stores and now immigration rules all suggest a similar cause and effect.These all shift the power base back to the Thai Urban Professional and away from the foreigner.

You have to zoom out a long way to see this. In 1975 when I was exposed to this logic, I had little interest and now it all seems so real and boy does it fit.0

[TerryLH]

astral said.

"Many teachers are not paid enough to meet the work permit and visa requirements.

Pay them a reasonable rate then they can stay legally."

I don't think this is very good information.

I'm not aware that the amount a teacher gets paid has anything to do with whether they can stay legally or not.

As a practical matter, the unreasonable amounts needed to be earned (based on your nationality) don't apply to teachers.

Most people working without WP's or good Visaa are doing so because their employers aren't getting them for them, not because of their low salary.

[Johpa]

An explanation as to why the Thai goverment asked the United to States to leave in 1975 thereby forgoing something like $10 billion a year has stuck with me all these years and seems applicable here. The fellow offering me this opinion later became very powerful in this country and still sits very near the top of the Political Food Chain.

His view was that this money was going to the wrong people. It was empowering the poor and not serving the interests of the Urban Professionals who wanted to control the country. Seems these educated Thais never like seeing their kids at the same schools as the poor kids. They were seeing their kids at the doctors right next to the poor kids, etc.. What really irked the members of this power base was the poor ISSAN girls living in houses and driving cars that none of them could afford. Now this has festerd for years and has never reallly gone away. The economic recovery seems to have resulted in magnifying in this trend. These poor girls were buying up the resort areas with their Farang husbands and boyfriends.

These thoughts echo my sentiments that I posted in a recent related thread:

"....that there is a long term plan to lessen the recent trend of Farangs settling in with Thai wives around the country or investing in the country. This situation is percieved by the Bangkok elite as both a long term political and long term economic threat to the status quo, which benefits the existing elite, which remains vey much a Sino-Thai elite. Not wanting to shoot themselves in the foot, the elite will slowly tighten restrictions over time on various types of visas ranging from tourist to business to retirement visas. You want to stay then you must pay."

But I would not use the term "Urban Professionals" which tends to imply upper middle class folks like doctors and accountants who are not in a position to influence long term strategic decisions. The Bangkok power elite is a quantum step above those who most of us would casually refer to as urban professionals.

[ding]

It's probably a political distraction. It happens in all conservative governments. It keeps people's eye off of the ball.

Right now folks are complaining about the current power holder. And the back of the hand is shown. Now the backhand is being discussed, not the person the hand is attached to.

Does anyone know if this could have been directed by a current power holder in hot water?

[DrFisher]

Its near election time. Thailand is a very xenophobic country, and with the negative press just recently from a high-profile arrest of some <deleted> from the US; you'd have to expect some sort of reaction; even it is the usual wide-of-the-mark sweeping brushstroke.

Shooting yourself in the foot is a national characteristic here.

The dick head from the US didn't do anything he was just a nut (not that I have seen any nuts here)

[think_too_mut]

[Ah c'mon guys this isn't rocket science.

Tourists with Visa On Entry don't pay into Thai immigration/consulate funds.

They want you to get a visa at a Thai consulate before you leave your country.

That way you pay the fee for the visa.

If you come up with a couple of Ha Loy baht, you get the visa.

That's what it is REALLY about.

No money, no honey.

What a nonsense.

Even guys like this could be on a proper visa. What lovely a sight could be those who are not?

[Meeone]

Alarm over foreign investment in tourism

Foreign investors are snatch-ing up small and medium-sized hotels and resorts in major tourist destinations, particularly in Phuket and on Koh Samui and Koh Pha-ngan, says the Tourism Council of Thailand (TCT).

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/09/18...ss_30013871.php

The Thais are paranoid! Farangs are taking over their country .....

____________

Meeone

[dsfbrit]

Its near election time. Thailand is a very xenophobic country, and with the negative press just recently from a high-profile arrest of some <deleted> from the US; you'd have to expect some sort of reaction; even it is the usual wide-of-the-mark sweeping brushstroke.

Shooting yourself in the foot is a national characteristic here.

Ah, a breath of fresh air after all the self-important hullabaloo that's been spouted on TV about this topic. Thanks for the moment of straight-forward sanity. It really is pretty much that simple, isn't it?

I was at a meeting at the Pattaya Expats Club yesterday(sunday) and there was a 2 hour forum on this with about 200 of us farangs asking questions. The people providing the answers were the owner of Pattaya People Newspaper and a visa expert - they both work with the Pattaya Immigration a lot.

It would be almost impossible to document all that was gleaned, but it appears these changes have been in the pipeline for about a year. There was a suggestion the Mark Karr incident may have been a final straw, but not the major driver.

The thrust is to get as many foreigners to get a visa as possible. Preferably, they will also come through the new airport at least once in the near future. The new airport and I believe it is 14 other entry points into Thailand have new computer software that will count the number of days you have been in the country. This new software will also have immediate access to a database of all visa holders in the country. At present the border data can take a month or more to get into the computer.

Also, in Pattaya for example, I forget the numbers now, but there are something like 10000 businesses and only 2000 or so pay any tax !!! It is also believed that many are fronted by Thais but farang are the real owners. The Thais are not happy with this.

The Marriage visa (certainly new marriages) will also be scrutinised more closely than before. Possibly visits to the house will be more regular to see if the marriage is 'real' also the farang may have to prove he can get a work permit to show he can support his spouse - if not where is he getting the money??? I know at present we have to show 400k baht in the bank - but somepeople borrow that it appears - then pay it back when they have their visa.

There was lots of other stuff - none of it is 'finalised' yet, but I really didn't get the feeling after all this info that the Thais were 'out to get us farang' as perhaps I did before the meeting. I just got the feeling they want to know who is in the country and for us all to get a visa and get legal, maybe pay some tax.

good luck everyone!!

[lukamar]

These thoughts echo my sentiments that I posted in a recent related thread:

This situation is perceived by the Bangkok elite as both a long term political and long term economic threat to the status quo, which benefits the existing elite, which remains vey much a Sino-Thai elite. Not wanting to shoot themselves in the foot, the elite will slowly tighten restrictions over time on various types of visas ranging from tourist to business to retirement visas.

I also posted something a while back during the PAD rally threads, that went something like this.

Having a picture of a farang on the front of every newspaper every day holding an anti government sign at a big protest is going to bring swift repercussions, and don't be surprised if when you arrive to renew your visa the officer pulls out a picture of you protesting asking you some pointed questions about what you do on your vacation in LOS.

You can't only blame the government on this one because the opposition would also back the move, as they don't want to be in the same position down the road. No politician wants to be put in that position and we can't vote for squat in Thailand. I have a feeling that this latest crackdown has more to do with perceived open decention among Farang visitors causing political problems, than them working illegally. They have just decided to clean house and make it possible for immigration to track you a bit easier with the 90 day reporting rule. Thus giving them more power over your stay and life via visa renewals. These rules are not new, they are just going to enforce them now.

[dsfbrit]

These thoughts echo my sentiments that I posted in a recent related thread:

This situation is perceived by the Bangkok elite as both a long term political and long term economic threat to the status quo, which benefits the existing elite, which remains vey much a Sino-Thai elite. Not wanting to shoot themselves in the foot, the elite will slowly tighten restrictions over time on various types of visas ranging from tourist to business to retirement visas.

I also posted something a while back during the PAD rally threads, that went something like this.

Having a picture of a farang on the front of every newspaper every day holding an anti government sign at a big protest is going to bring swift repercussions, and don't be surprised if when you arrive to renew your visa the officer pulls out a picture of you protesting asking you some pointed questions about what you do on your vacation in LOS.

You can't only blame the government on this one because the opposition would also back the move, as they don't want to be in the same position down the road. No politician wants to be put in that position and we can't vote for squat in Thailand. I have a feeling that this latest crackdown has more to do with perceived open decention among Farang visitors causing political problems, than them working illegally. They have just decided to clean house and make it possible for immigration to track you a bit easier with the 90 day reporting rule. Thus giving them more power over your stay and life via visa renewals. These rules are not new, they are just going to enforce them now.

I think you are right about them using the 90 day reporting as an opportunity to check us out more. Which is why they want us to get visas and see who is in the country.

At the Pattaya Expats Club Visa changes forum I mentioned earlier, this was brought up as a major desire of the Thai Immigration Department, certainly in Pattaya.

One of the likely outcomes of the 'changes' is to use this 90 day reporting to perhaps get us farang to bring along our bank statements to prove we still have the money we had when we got our visa - less of course reasonable living expenses. To prove we did not just borrow the money for a month or whatever.

Firstly they must get us all with some sort of Visa, so they can track us!

By the way, we were told that in Pattaya there is a meeting at the Pattaya Town Hall on 28th Septembr to finalise all this. SO nothing is yet set in stone - certainly not here in Pattaya, so I expect that is the same all over Thailand.

[Pakboong]

I don't think that any of this is about money. Thais will pass up lots of money to avoid losing face. Individually or as a complete culture they will not lose face. When they are bombarded with poor Issan girls living a life they never can, that is the ultmate face lift. It is very damaging beyond anything money can buy.

If it was about money, the 3 million baht investment visa would not have been changed to 10 million.

[Oishi]

Let`s face it.

Meanwhile, let´s take a hypothetical Thai business owner, who, after giving it some thought and common sense, may look at this from a different perspective, perhaps one similar to this:

“Ok, let´s see here, I am told that of 10 Million tourists a year bringing us money - helping to pay our salaries and livelihood - a handful keeps coming back more often than others. (How many? Does anyone really know?. Shall we guess? Ok, for example, if a total of 5000 people a year were doing the visa run thing, that´s a whopping 0.05%!! One (!) of every 2000 visitors! If it were double, 10.000 “visa runners”, that´s one out of 1000 visitors!

Our hypothetical business owner continues to ponder: I am further told that from that handful - namely one out of every 2000 people - again a handful (what percentage of the 10 Million?) teaches us and our kids English while here. Which is the kind of help we very much need in order to be able to hold our own in the future, competing with world markets and other tourist destinations which are constantly increasing marketing budgets to attract tourists away from us.

I am told that out of this fraction of total arrivals (what percentage of 10 Million? One out of 20.000? Less, more? ), some (how many? What percentage of 10 Million?) have been teaching us English while unable to show certain pieces of paper that bureaucrats say they should have.

Now my kingdoms bureaucracy has singled out that situation involving a mere handful of people, to justify new rules to affect 10 Million visitors a year and impacting the livelihood of some 60 Million Thais or so if arrivals are dropping as a result of these changes

Our Thai business owner keeps wondering...besides spending patterns, how will the new rules affect peoples ability to even get to Thailand in the future?

After all, airlines are responsible for passengers they bring. Anyone denied entry to the country has to be taken care of by the airline. With the new rules, how can an airline be sure a passenger will be allowed into the country?

What will happen when immigration decides that a passenger has already had their alloted share of days for this six month period? What if it is a matter of one day over? Two days?

What happens in cases where entry is denied based on day count? Will the airline take the passenger back home? Or will the ticket agent or travel agent go through passports and add up days at the office or counter before deciding if they can sell a ticket to Thailand?

The impact could be considerable. But the ego doesn´t care about that. One of its strongest characteristics seems to be that it does not engage the brain (if any) before acting. It simply does not consider the fact that actions have consequences.

(Is that why bureaucratic jobs do not always seem to attract only the wisest and most intelligent?)

“What a mess...” our Thai business owner thinks. “...all because of some bruised egos....”

Well of course, that Thai business owner is hypothetical. Very much so. Obviously.

A more real one would simply say “mai pen rai” and get on with life...

Perhaps we should do the same.

Stats regarding arrivals in Thailand

For the hypothetical Thai business owner

Some other posters where asking for stats, to try and find what impact the new regulation might have, here are some stats that may help the research or not.

Year 2005:

Total visitors 2005:

11.516.936

4.365.933 First time visitors -24.49% (2004)

7.151.003 Re-visitors (+ 21.85% more than 2004)

917.941 Where business related. -5.98% (2004)

Average age of the visitor:

36.69 years old.

Most come from the 25-34 years of age group, followed by the 35-44 years of age group. Third spot goes to the 45-54 years of age group.

Occupation of visitors

Professionals:

2.574.816 (+ 19.86% more than in 2004)

Admin.:

1.410.887 (-0.75)

Commercial:

3.277.805 (+24.04)

Labourers:

1.603.299 (-24.66)

Retired:

219.181 (-6.06)

Average length of stay:

8. 10 days

Average Expenditure/person/day

4.150,00 Baht

Revenue/Million/Baht

450.000 (+17.08)

Source of Data: Immigration Bureau, Police Department.

Remark: Overseas Thai Residents are not included

http://www2.tat.or.th/stat/web/static_download.php?Rpt=ita

[lukamar]

Average length of stay:

8. 10 days

If you look at this figure you can see why Immigration thinks 30 days is more than enough time for a Tourist to vacation. The stamp on arrival is 3 times longer than the average length of stay.

It doesn't help the problem of not having a visa for someone that is self sufficient but slips through the cracks in the system and has to use the 30 day stamps. I agree with Thailand that it's visa requirements need to be looked at. changed and upgraded. If I were immigration, I would not have started this way, by in effect turfing a lot of decent people out of the country or driving them underground. It would have been much better for them to have an amnesty time where people on multiple 30's could present themselves to an immigration office and pay some kind of fee and get, possibly, a 60 - 90 day consideration where they have time to adjust or get the proper documentation and also report their living location. They could even have a fee that is similar to the cost of a border run so that you had to pay that to the immigration on a monthly basis at an immigration office, rather than doing a border run, in order to stay in the country.