Thai Supreme Court begins first trial of fake rice deal

[elgordo38]

If it runs the way which is quite common here, I think everyone will live happily ever after the trial. I don't believe these guys will spend a single day behind bars until I see it.

Asking for a BILLION DOLLAR fine is there something wrong here. I have only heard of fines of this magnitude when dealing with the crooked banks in the USA and elsewhere. They of course can raise their fees afterwards and easily reclaim it.

[Bannum opinions]

"My bad. I got my reds and yellows mixed up. I've corrected my post" (#29 above)

Time to get away from Red/Yellow monikers anyway.........Affinity clothing colors have no political context......Although the anti-democrats find it an easy way to obscure their proclivities.

One thing the current state of Political Affairs has clarified, is to simplify the two sides of the political divide into Pro or anti democracy.....When seen in that light, one can usually differentiate easily what side of the political divide someone comes down on.

When talking Politics, one may as well use politically contextual language. Colors have nothing to do with that.

[HerbalEd]

"My bad. I got my reds and yellows mixed up. I've corrected my post" (#29 above)

Time to get away from Red/Yellow monikers anyway.........Affinity clothing colors have no political context......Although the anti-democrats find it an easy way to obscure their proclivities.

One thing the current state of Political Affairs has clarified, is to simplify the two sides of the political divide into Pro or anti democracy.....When seen in that light, one can usually differentiate easily what side of the political divide someone comes down on.

When talking Politics, one may as well use politically contextual language. Colors have nothing to do with that.

I guess I'm too lazy to figure out and remember the official names ... esp. when everyone seems to know who I'm talking about when I mention either red or yellow shirts. I'd bet even you understood.

While some will argue that the present gov. is non-democratic, I don't think all members of either party are anti-democratic. For sure neither party says they're antidemocratic.

What official names do you use?

Edited June 29, 2015 by HerbalEd

[wvavin]

Its action time!

[halloween]

"My bad. I got my reds and yellows mixed up. I've corrected my post" (#29 above)

Time to get away from Red/Yellow monikers anyway.........Affinity clothing colors have no political context......Although the anti-democrats find it an easy way to obscure their proclivities.

One thing the current state of Political Affairs has clarified, is to simplify the two sides of the political divide into Pro or anti democracy.....When seen in that light, one can usually differentiate easily what side of the political divide someone comes down on.

When talking Politics, one may as well use politically contextual language. Colors have nothing to do with that.

The really funny thing is you see this as political, and hilarious that you think that it has anything to do with democracy.

This was a blatantly criminal act, and it was recognised as such from its conception. These men are being prosecuted because they are criminals who abused their position to enrich themselves. And the only hope they had of getting away with it was to award themselves an amnesty.

How is it more democratic when governments are allowed to whitewash their crimes? How would it be more democratic if criminals weren't prosecuted

[Yunla]

" I hope that everyone involved gets a fair trial"

And therein lies the problem. I wish it was otherwise.

We are back at the 'double-standards' conundrum.

A huge swath of people across the country are totally convinced, based on past practices, that these courts are a mere extension of the anti-democrats...The narrow political slice made up of the Bangkok-centric elite. Beginning with the NACC right up through to this level of the judiciary.....They have seen this movie before...They can point to a myriad of similar occasions which has cemented this conclusion in their mind.

Can millions be wrong.....Namely the electoral majority whose votes would be diametrically opposed to the political space these people come from...namely the Bangkok-centric elitist political space. And from whose votes came the people now being persecuted?.

Them's the facts........." I hope that everyone involved gets a fair trial"......Millions will say "not a chance".

All the evidence one needs is simply calculating how many from the Pro-democracy side have been jailed, and how many from the anti-democrat side....From this latter side, the answer is nill, zippo, none! (other than by Cambodia, bless their hearts)....And the process that leads to jail or not, has something to do with judicial decision-makers if I am not mistaken.....Either one side is squeaky clean, being paragons-of-virtue and the other polar opposites, or there is something else at play here.

Anyone who thinks this pretend judicial stuff is not politically rooted, is strongly pre-disposed to the anti-democrat side of the political divide.

With respect to "They destroyed themselves. We watched their slow-motion political harakiri for years"...........At least that is what the Opposition mantra would claim......,As in so many other instances, I marvel at how so many people will take Opposition stuff as fact...Especially when their sole objective was to destroy the Electoral underpinnings of a Government.........In the end they succeeded......................At least for the time being.

I have great empathy with factory-workers and field-workers, and the struggling rural communities. They need an honest party to represent them, comprised of leaders who have toiled in the fields and factories for years and understand the tribulations of the honest working family. I have actually prayed for many years that these poor hardworking people will get adequate political representation, by a forthright political party with an industrious and sincere leadership. This is not even a fairy story, these parties and leaders have not only existed in world history, but they have been the engine of some of the world's most prosperous and socially successful eras.

But that is the problem, PTP did not adequately represent these workers. PTP had a mono-policy structure from the start, their policy was "Bring Him Home!" and then we saw passports and amnesty and stuff relating to that policy. They failed to deal with a really major flooding crisis. They took orders from unelected persons overseas, which is treason. The tablets scheme was a bit iffy too. The outcome of the rice scheme wasn't wildly popular with poor people either, unless huge convoys of tractors heading to Bangkok were just making that long trip to deliver a Thankyou card. Many poor farmers struggled so much during Yingluck's final months, that they took their own lives to escape debt pressures.

"Can millions be wrong?" We don't want to go there. It would be offtopic to list all the times in history that millions have been wrong.

I do agree with you that many people are rightly sceptical of fair trials, not only here but in famous legal cases in other nations around the world. There are no guarantees, which is why I said "I hope they get a fair trial." I'm a real law-and-order kind of girl. I don't like witch-hunts or miscarriages of justice, I like things to go by the book.

It is not about elites versus everyone else. In all capitalist democracy, including as a component of constitutionalmonarchy, wealthy elites are part of the natural order. If they earned it or inherited it, it is all good, so long as they didn't break laws to get it. And that doesn't mean that poor working communities shouldn't have strong political parties to represent their legitimate concerns, or that they shouldn't be fairly paid for their hard work, or that their schools and other important community infrastructure shouldn't be modern and high quality. Those things are central to a democratic capitalist model, because healthy aspirational workers equals national success. We would all be better off without all the caveman stuff about "us versus the elites." It is actually that very same childrens-story that allowed an international jetset playboy to hoodwink millions of poor agrarian workers into voting for him. He told them about the nasty elites stealing their money and they looked at him as if he'd just discovered fire. These working communites are full of good honest people, they need sincere and honest political leaders who understand and respect their plight, not just use them as a springboard to personal glory.

[scorecard]

The anti-democrats merely advancing another cog on their wheel to destroy the PTP, Yingluck, et al. In effect the pro-democracy side of things

But destroying it at the Bangkok-centric elitist political level, will not work. Their reach does not extend beyond their narrow political base.

Attacking the Commerce Minister first, so they can move on to Yingluck as well.

It is this same anti-democrat chain-of-command starting with their favorite, the NACC, on through the judicial system as cover to provide legitimacy.

The same chain-of-command which never puts any component of the anti-democrats in jail, regardless of their excesses.

All in the service of clearing any electoral obstacles in the future for the anti-democrats, that 'reform' may have overlooked.

But a related fact that is conveniently omitted, is that the rice in question is being sold very successfully. It is placing Thailand in a top tier of rice exporters....Little of that money is flowing down to the farmers however...Re-distribution of wealth is not what the anti-democrats are all about.

Nowadays I don't bother to read your posts because they are 99% based around divisive and deliberately misleading untruths.

I did notice your first words '.... the anti-democrats...'

Therefore I will assume your talking about your beloved udd, red, pt gang. They do have a solid track record of being anti-democratic even though they have claimed many times to be the protectors of democracy, more deliberate untruths.

No need to read any further.

Edited June 29, 2015 by scorecard

[phoenixdoglover]

So when the verdict is reached and announced, we will have great confidence in the outcome, because the proceedings will be open and publicized by the media. Am I right?

[Bannum opinions]

" I hope that everyone involved gets a fair trial"

And therein lies the problem. I wish it was otherwise.

We are back at the 'double-standards' conundrum.

A huge swath of people across the country are totally convinced, based on past practices, that these courts are a mere extension of the anti-democrats...The narrow political slice made up of the Bangkok-centric elite. Beginning with the NACC right up through to this level of the judiciary.....They have seen this movie before...They can point to a myriad of similar occasions which has cemented this conclusion in their mind.

Can millions be wrong.....Namely the electoral majority whose votes would be diametrically opposed to the political space these people come from...namely the Bangkok-centric elitist political space. And from whose votes came the people now being persecuted?.

Them's the facts........." I hope that everyone involved gets a fair trial"......Millions will say "not a chance".

All the evidence one needs is simply calculating how many from the Pro-democracy side have been jailed, and how many from the anti-democrat side....From this latter side, the answer is nill, zippo, none! (other than by Cambodia, bless their hearts)....And the process that leads to jail or not, has something to do with judicial decision-makers if I am not mistaken.....Either one side is squeaky clean, being paragons-of-virtue and the other polar opposites, or there is something else at play here.

Anyone who thinks this pretend judicial stuff is not politically rooted, is strongly pre-disposed to the anti-democrat side of the political divide.

With respect to "They destroyed themselves. We watched their slow-motion political harakiri for years"...........At least that is what the Opposition mantra would claim......,As in so many other instances, I marvel at how so many people will take Opposition stuff as fact...Especially when their sole objective was to destroy the Electoral underpinnings of a Government.........In the end they succeeded......................At least for the time being.

I have great empathy with factory-workers and field-workers, and the struggling rural communities. They need an honest party to represent them, comprised of leaders who have toiled in the fields and factories for years and understand the tribulations of the honest working family. I have actually prayed for many years that these poor hardworking people will get adequate political representation, by a forthright political party with an industrious and sincere leadership. This is not even a fairy story, these parties and leaders have not only existed in world history, but they have been the engine of some of the world's most prosperous and socially successful eras.

But that is the problem, PTP did not adequately represent these workers. PTP had a mono-policy structure from the start, their policy was "Bring Him Home!" and then we saw passports and amnesty and stuff relating to that policy. They failed to deal with a really major flooding crisis. They took orders from unelected persons overseas, which is treason. The tablets scheme was a bit iffy too. The outcome of the rice scheme wasn't wildly popular with poor people either, unless huge convoys of tractors heading to Bangkok were just making that long trip to deliver a Thankyou card. Many poor farmers struggled so much during Yingluck's final months, that they took their own lives to escape debt pressures.

"Can millions be wrong?" We don't want to go there. It would be offtopic to list all the times in history that millions have been wrong.

I do agree with you that many people are rightly sceptical of fair trials, not only here but in famous legal cases in other nations around the world. There are no guarantees, which is why I said "I hope they get a fair trial." I'm a real law-and-order kind of girl. I don't like witch-hunts or miscarriages of justice, I like things to go by the book.

It is not about elites versus everyone else. In all capitalist democracy, including as a component of constitutionalmonarchy, wealthy elites are part of the natural order. If they earned it or inherited it, it is all good, so long as they didn't break laws to get it. And that doesn't mean that poor working communities shouldn't have strong political parties to represent their legitimate concerns, or that they shouldn't be fairly paid for their hard work, or that their schools and other important community infrastructure shouldn't be modern and high quality. Those things are central to a democratic capitalist model, because healthy aspirational workers equals national success. We would all be better off without all the caveman stuff about "us versus the elites." It is actually that very same childrens-story that allowed an international jetset playboy to hoodwink millions of poor agrarian workers into voting for him. He told them about the nasty elites stealing their money and they looked at him as if he'd just discovered fire. These working communites are full of good honest people, they need sincere and honest political leaders who understand and respect their plight, not just use them as a springboard to personal glory.

Well written and thoughtful Post...(Yunla, Post #36)

While I would debate and question many of your conclusions, one thing that I would like to address is the historical spin you give to several events, right out of the anti-democrat playbook, which I would argue are revisionist. Is not an accurate account of what occurred.

PTP had a mono-policy structure from the start, their policy was "Bring Him Home!"

That was one of their initiatives, but ought not to define their governance in total. The politically based judicial decisions regarding Thaksin is self-evident to many.....He was an elected Prime Minister, deposed via a coup for which his political enemies arranged judicial justification. Their subsequent self-serving and orchestrated demonization campaign is evident to all. Given that circumstance and the Political orientation of both the elected Government and of the majority voters who voted them into office, this is a perfectly understandable thing.

They failed to deal with a really major flooding crisis

They dealt with it extremely effectively. No-one from the Opposition has been able to come up with any examples of National calamities elsewhere that were dealt with more effectively, or a leader that exuded greater sincere empathy for those affected than Yingluck. To do a blanket condemnation of the way the major flooding crisis was handled is merely parroting self-serving and unfounded Opposition mantra's.

They took orders from unelected persons overseas

This is just more of the Opposition attempts to discredit an elected Government. Who did Abhisit take orders from during is unelected tour-of-duty as PM.....What is good for the goose is good for the gander.....Just another example of people believing self-serving Opposition stuff as factual, instead of considering the source and motivations. This is folderol designed only to discredit a Govt. It did that only when they preached to their own choir.

less huge convoys of tractors heading to Bangkok were just making that long trip to deliver a Thankyou card. Many poor farmers struggled so much during Yingluck's final months, that they took their own lives to escape debt pressures.

Granted the Opposition was able to find and instigate some sympathetic brethren from their Opposition ranks to protest via a convoy. This was standard procedures for them...Create seemingly independent groups to agitate on their behalf. But mostly they were "different organizations, same faces"...​If there was all this economic struggle and debt depression attributable to the Yingluck Govt, why is there such humongous fear to allow an open and free election.....If all this is true, any semblance of a Yingluck Govt. would be turfed out on their ears...That would not happen, and why elections have been cancelled and avoided.....Bringing these innuendo's into serious question. You have not mentioned the active resistance and obstruction the Opposition generated to prevent Rice subsidy payment to these farmers...Perhaps the grievances are misplaced all around.

Anyway, all this to eliminate historical revisionism applying an anti-democrat Opposition spin, that should be corrected.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Bannum opinions

[AleG]

I, for one, haven´t missed Fryslan Boppe and his pontifications against "historical revisionism"... as he desperately tries to spin things in favour of Thaksin and his minions.

This case is about theft, by people in government, the only thing political about it is that they thieves used politics to get the key to the hen house.

[Jay Sata]

The anti-democrats merely advancing another cog on their wheel to destroy the PTP, Yingluck, et al. In effect the pro-democracy side of things

But destroying it at the Bangkok-centric elitist political level, will not work. Their reach does not extend beyond their narrow political base.

Attacking the Commerce Minister first, so they can move on to Yingluck as well.

It is this same anti-democrat chain-of-command starting with their favorite, the NACC, on through the judicial system as cover to provide legitimacy.

The same chain-of-command which never puts any component of the anti-democrats in jail, regardless of their excesses.

All in the service of clearing any electoral obstacles in the future for the anti-democrats, that 'reform' may have overlooked.

But a related fact that is conveniently omitted, is that the rice in question is being sold very successfully. It is placing Thailand in a top tier of rice exporters....Little of that money is flowing down to the farmers however...Re-distribution of wealth is not what the anti-democrats are all about.

What a load of nonsense. Only the usual Shin apologists will support the notion that the Shins and their wholly owned political party are pro-democracy. Winning an election and then promptly handing over the government to a convicted criminal fugitive billionaire, who pays a salary to the MP's and Ministers as they work for him and do his bidding, is not democracy.

The Shins and their gang are not socialists or democrats. They are an amply rich elite family who manipulated things to their advantage, reaped billions and got caught out. Not for the first time either. Thoroughly dishonest.

It's alleged they fraudulently forged export contracts, re-sold the rice and pocketed the profits themselves. Robbing the Thai people of billions, get caught and now having to stand trial. Just like any common criminal.

Hardly surprising when their boss is a crook is it?

Some excellent replies on this thread but you are spot on except for one point.

Despitebthe name of their financial vehicle,Ample Rich, the Shins never knew when enough was enough and it was time to take their snout out of the trough.

Strangly this same syndrome also applies to fraudsters and crooks.

Bernie Madoff could have got out a long time before it all went pear shaped as could Alan Bond in Australia or Robert Maxwell in the UK.

Money is like a drug for some people who never see it as a means to enjoy life but more a mental state of mind like gambling.

For all Thaksin's money he cannot enjoy what us mere mortal take for granted.

Simple everyday life.

He has ended up exiled like Napoleon with whom he shares a similar stature.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Jay Sata

[rubl]

So when the verdict is reached and announced, we will have great confidence in the outcome, because the proceedings will be open and publicized by the media. Am I right?

Well, some people already seem to have made up their mind as to the anti-democrat conspiracy, etc., etc.

BTW not sure proceedings have ever been 'open' in the past, but on reaching a verdict courts tend to read out the verdict with extensive justification for hours upon hours. In Thai of course, I'm sorry to say.

[rubl]

I, for one, haven´t missed Fryslan Boppe and his pontifications against "historical revisionism"... as he desperately tries to spin things in favour of Thaksin and his minions.

This case is about theft, by people in government, the only thing political about it is that they thieves used politics to get the key to the hen house.

Of course, according to some it's totally undemocratic to hold politicians and their minions accountable for their actions.

Imagine all this would have been swept off the table under the carpet with the sneakily modified blanket amnesty bill which covered just such crimes from 2004 till 2013-08-09 !

[Jay Sata]

I, for one, haven´t missed Fryslan Boppe and his pontifications against "historical revisionism"... as he desperately tries to spin things in favour of Thaksin and his minions.

This case is about theft, by people in government, the only thing political about it is that they thieves used politics to get the key to the hen house.

Of course, according to some it's totally undemocratic to hold politicians and their minions accountable for their actions.

Imagine all this would have been swept off the table under the carpet with the sneakily modified blanket amnesty bill which covered just such crimes from 2004 till 2013-08-09 !

What puzzles me is why people who are immensely rich want to bother with politics.

I guess it is the drug of having power?

[phoenixdoglover]

So when the verdict is reached and announced, we will have great confidence in the outcome, because the proceedings will be open and publicized by the media. Am I right?

Well, some people already seem to have made up their mind as to the anti-democrat conspiracy, etc., etc.

BTW not sure proceedings have ever been 'open' in the past, but on reaching a verdict courts tend to read out the verdict with extensive justification for hours upon hours. In Thai of course, I'm sorry to say.

Therein lies the rub.

Yes, the verdict is read, and the justifications given, based on the version of evidence as re-framed by the judges.

Blind faith in the judiciary is misplaced, as is blind faith in any institution with significant power.

That is why many western judicial systems insist on complete and accurate transcriptions of all relevant proceedings (excluding the procedural matters).

Another serious issue is related to right of appeal. It is not clear to me that a person convicted of a crime at the Supreme Court level has an effective avenue for appeal. I think the special division created for crimes committed by politicians is misplaced int he Supreme Court. It should be placed in lower courts. That way, the avenue for appeal is upward to a court that has oversight responsibilities rather than responsibility for criminal trials.

[rubl]

So when the verdict is reached and announced, we will have great confidence in the outcome, because the proceedings will be open and publicized by the media. Am I right?

Well, some people already seem to have made up their mind as to the anti-democrat conspiracy, etc., etc.

BTW not sure proceedings have ever been 'open' in the past, but on reaching a verdict courts tend to read out the verdict with extensive justification for hours upon hours. In Thai of course, I'm sorry to say.

Therein lies the rub.

Yes, the verdict is read, and the justifications given, based on the version of evidence as re-framed by the judges.

Blind faith in the judiciary is misplaced, as is blind faith in any institution with significant power.

That is why many western judicial systems insist on complete and accurate transcriptions of all relevant proceedings (excluding the procedural matters).

Another serious issue is related to right of appeal. It is not clear to me that a person convicted of a crime at the Supreme Court level has an effective avenue for appeal. I think the special division created for crimes committed by politicians is misplaced int he Supreme Court. It should be placed in lower courts. That way, the avenue for appeal is upward to a court that has oversight responsibilities rather than responsibility for criminal trials.

Saying 're-framed' you seem to suggest some illegal activities by the judges. Didn't you see all information already presented since about November 2012? Don't the charged persons have legal representatives and are allowed to submit a list of witnesses they'd like to call up? Within reason their wishes will be honoured. I have no doubt Ms. Yingluck as their boss and Abhisit as opposition leader will be willing to tell the truth at the court if called up.

As for whether or not there should be a Supreme Court for Political Office Holders, that's a completely different discussion. As for appeal, you suggest there can't be, but do you know for sure? I don't have the information either for or against.

[scorecard]

So when the verdict is reached and announced, we will have great confidence in the outcome, because the proceedings will be open and publicized by the media. Am I right?

Well, some people already seem to have made up their mind as to the anti-democrat conspiracy, etc., etc.

BTW not sure proceedings have ever been 'open' in the past, but on reaching a verdict courts tend to read out the verdict with extensive justification for hours upon hours. In Thai of course, I'm sorry to say.

Therein lies the rub.

Yes, the verdict is read, and the justifications given, based on the version of evidence as re-framed by the judges.

Blind faith in the judiciary is misplaced, as is blind faith in any institution with significant power.

That is why many western judicial systems insist on complete and accurate transcriptions of all relevant proceedings (excluding the procedural matters).

Another serious issue is related to right of appeal. It is not clear to me that a person convicted of a crime at the Supreme Court level has an effective avenue for appeal. I think the special division created for crimes committed by politicians is misplaced int he Supreme Court. It should be placed in lower courts. That way, the avenue for appeal is upward to a court that has oversight responsibilities rather than responsibility for criminal trials.

Sure there are questions marks about justice and how it work, in many countries, but the bottom line is that your post is just an attempt to divert from the main points in this thread, and nothing more.

Seems you think, like the red leaders and their leaders, you can grossly mislead the populace and with no conscience.

Edited June 29, 2015 by scorecard

[Srikcir]

The very existence of G2G deals violate competitive bidding laws, particularly when G2G deals are not transparent for public scrutiny. Yet the corruption busting Prayut regime has committed billions of foreign-borrowed funds in G2G deals that will obligate the Thai people for 20+ years with the barest amount of public disclosure of the details.

A one-man unelected government having absolute power over the nation's checks and balances is no more trustworthy than corrupt elected officials. The government needs to stop G2G deals until it provides a full disclosure of deal details and has exhausted all avenues for competitive bidding.

[scorecard]

So when the verdict is reached and announced, we will have great confidence in the outcome, because the proceedings will be open and publicized by the media. Am I right?

Well, some people already seem to have made up their mind as to the anti-democrat conspiracy, etc., etc.

BTW not sure proceedings have ever been 'open' in the past, but on reaching a verdict courts tend to read out the verdict with extensive justification for hours upon hours. In Thai of course, I'm sorry to say.

Therein lies the rub.

Yes, the verdict is read, and the justifications given, based on the version of evidence as re-framed by the judges.

Blind faith in the judiciary is misplaced, as is blind faith in any institution with significant power.

That is why many western judicial systems insist on complete and accurate transcriptions of all relevant proceedings (excluding the procedural matters).

Another serious issue is related to right of appeal. It is not clear to me that a person convicted of a crime at the Supreme Court level has an effective avenue for appeal. I think the special division created for crimes committed by politicians is misplaced int he Supreme Court. It should be placed in lower courts. That way, the avenue for appeal is upward to a court that has oversight responsibilities rather than responsibility for criminal trials.

"Blind faith in the judiciary is misplaced, as is blind faith in any institution with significant power."

And a very good example is the paymasters machine.

[phoenixdoglover]

So when the verdict is reached and announced, we will have great confidence in the outcome, because the proceedings will be open and publicized by the media. Am I right?

Well, some people already seem to have made up their mind as to the anti-democrat conspiracy, etc., etc.

BTW not sure proceedings have ever been 'open' in the past, but on reaching a verdict courts tend to read out the verdict with extensive justification for hours upon hours. In Thai of course, I'm sorry to say.

Therein lies the rub.

Yes, the verdict is read, and the justifications given, based on the version of evidence as re-framed by the judges.

Blind faith in the judiciary is misplaced, as is blind faith in any institution with significant power.

That is why many western judicial systems insist on complete and accurate transcriptions of all relevant proceedings (excluding the procedural matters).

Another serious issue is related to right of appeal. It is not clear to me that a person convicted of a crime at the Supreme Court level has an effective avenue for appeal. I think the special division created for crimes committed by politicians is misplaced int he Supreme Court. It should be placed in lower courts. That way, the avenue for appeal is upward to a court that has oversight responsibilities rather than responsibility for criminal trials.

Sure there are questions marks about justice and how it work, in many countries, but the bottom line is that your post is just an attempt to divert from the main points in this thread, and nothing more.

Seems you think, like the red leaders and their leaders, you can grossly mislead the populace and with no conscience.

My points regarding the Thai judicial system are entirely relevant to the topic at hand. The credibility of the Thai courts will be a central question for this case and any other that could be interpreted in the divisive political context.

I don't place blind faith in any judicial system. Even the best systems make mistakes.

But in Thailand, the lack of a full and accurate trial record in many cases eliminates the possibility of detecting and reversing a miscarriage of justice.

[phoenixdoglover]

The very existence of G2G deals violate competitive bidding laws, particularly when G2G deals are not transparent for public scrutiny. Yet the corruption busting Prayut regime has committed billions of foreign-borrowed funds in G2G deals that will obligate the Thai people for 20+ years with the barest amount of public disclosure of the details.

A one-man unelected government having absolute power over the nation's checks and balances is no more trustworthy than corrupt elected officials. The government needs to stop G2G deals until it provides a full disclosure of deal details and has exhausted all avenues for competitive bidding.

I have been commenting on the recent Rail deals for exactly this reason.

In many countries, there is a clear public record of procurement actions: advertised tenders, bid openings, bid awards.

Only the small stuff in Thailand is treated in this open way. So you can go to tender tracking sites and see a lot of procurement of spare parts and maintenance services for the Thai rail system.

But the major deals are all done in the back room.

This should be a MAJOR reform issue.

Hahahaha. Who am I kidding.

[473geo]

I, for one, haven´t missed Fryslan Boppe and his pontifications against "historical revisionism"... as he desperately tries to spin things in favour of Thaksin and his minions.

This case is about theft, by people in government, the only thing political about it is that they thieves used politics to get the key to the hen house.

Of course, according to some it's totally undemocratic to hold politicians and their minions accountable for their actions.

Imagine all this would have been swept off the table under the carpet with the sneakily modified blanket amnesty bill which covered just such crimes from 2004 till 2013-08-09 !

It appears, Rubl old friend, the main concern is that the carpet is fully removed, and, all that is revealed attracts a similar amount of enthusiasm and attention

Or as in the case by AleG - All the foxes who have visited the Hen house are hounded down with equitable fervour

Otherwise 'Political' is a term that will be broadly applied - so I guess correct procedure would be to wait and see - right?

Edited June 29, 2015 by 473geo

[EnglishJohn]

The anti-democrats merely advancing another cog on their wheel to destroy the PTP, Yingluck, et al. In effect the pro-democracy side of things

But destroying it at the Bangkok-centric elitist political level, will not work. Their reach does not extend beyond their narrow political base.

Attacking the Commerce Minister first, so they can move on to Yingluck as well.

It is this same anti-democrat chain-of-command starting with their favorite, the NACC, on through the judicial system as cover to provide legitimacy.

The same chain-of-command which never puts any component of the anti-democrats in jail, regardless of their excesses.

All in the service of clearing any electoral obstacles in the future for the anti-democrats, that 'reform' may have overlooked.

But a related fact that is conveniently omitted, is that the rice in question is being sold very successfully. It is placing Thailand in a top tier of rice exporters....Little of that money is flowing down to the farmers however...Re-distribution of wealth is not what the anti-democrats are all about.

Thank you for reminding us of the average intelligence of the Pheu-Thai supporter.

Ignoring the child-like rhetoric at the beginning:

So you think the government should buy the rice from farmers at a grossly inflated price using taxpayers money then - when that rice is sold - the money raised should be given to the farmers as well ?.

Ha ha ha ha

"Take the money from everybody else and give it to me". Democracy red-shirt style.

Edited June 29, 2015 by EnglishJohn

[Thai at Heart]

The anti-democrats merely advancing another cog on their wheel to destroy the PTP, Yingluck, et al. In effect the pro-democracy side of things

But destroying it at the Bangkok-centric elitist political level, will not work. Their reach does not extend beyond their narrow political base.

Attacking the Commerce Minister first, so they can move on to Yingluck as well.

It is this same anti-democrat chain-of-command starting with their favorite, the NACC, on through the judicial system as cover to provide legitimacy.

The same chain-of-command which never puts any component of the anti-democrats in jail, regardless of their excesses.

All in the service of clearing any electoral obstacles in the future for the anti-democrats, that 'reform' may have overlooked.

But a related fact that is conveniently omitted, is that the rice in question is being sold very successfully. It is placing Thailand in a top tier of rice exporters....Little of that money is flowing down to the farmers however...Re-distribution of wealth is not what the anti-democrats are all about.

What a load of nonsense. Only the usual Shin apologists will support the notion that the Shins and their wholly owned political party are pro-democracy. Winning an election and then promptly handing over the government to a convicted criminal fugitive billionaire, who pays a salary to the MP's and Ministers as they work for him and do his bidding, is not democracy.

The Shins and their gang are not socialists or democrats. They are an amply rich elite family who manipulated things to their advantage, reaped billions and got caught out. Not for the first time either. Thoroughly dishonest.

It's alleged they fraudulently forged export contracts, re-sold the rice and pocketed the profits themselves. Robbing the Thai people of billions, get caught and now having to stand trial. Just like any common criminal.

Hardly surprising when their boss is a crook is it?

Some excellent replies on this thread but you are spot on except for one point.

Despitebthe name of their financial vehicle,Ample Rich, the Shins never knew when enough was enough and it was time to take their snout out of the trough.

Strangly this same syndrome also applies to fraudsters and crooks.

Bernie Madoff could have got out a long time before it all went pear shaped as could Alan Bond in Australia or Robert Maxwell in the UK.

Money is like a drug for some people who never see it as a means to enjoy life but more a mental state of mind like gambling.

For all Thaksin's money he cannot enjoy what us mere mortal take for granted.

Simple everyday life.

He has ended up exiled like Napoleon with whom he shares a similar stature.

You really think that the long standing political families from the other sides are less corrupt than thaksin?

Removing Thaksin alone is not a solution. They are all extremely bent.

[Jay Sata]

It is worth reading this Reuters opinion article.

Yingluck Shinawatra's journey from political nobody to prime minister was breathtakingly swift. Her premiership's descent into crisis has been just as rapid.

A political neophyte when she took office in 2011, the 46-year-old former business executive surprised many observers by steadying Thailand after years of often bloody political unrest.

Then she leaned over and pushed a button marked "SELF-DESTRUCT".

Behind Thailand's lurch into its worst crisis in years was a disastrous intervention by Yingluck's billionaire brother Thaksin, who was deposed in a 2006 military coup and now lives abroad to escape a corruption conviction.

Thaksin's meddling turned a bill that would have freed ordinary Thais charged with protest-related crimes into a controversial wider amnesty for politicians such as himself.

Thaksin's intervention shattered two years of relative calm.

source and for the rest.....http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/01/31/us-thailand-amnesty-insight-idUSBREA0U00620140131

Edited June 29, 2015 by Jay Sata

[rubl]

The very existence of G2G deals violate competitive bidding laws, particularly when G2G deals are not transparent for public scrutiny. Yet the corruption busting Prayut regime has committed billions of foreign-borrowed funds in G2G deals that will obligate the Thai people for 20+ years with the barest amount of public disclosure of the details.

A one-man unelected government having absolute power over the nation's checks and balances is no more trustworthy than corrupt elected officials. The government needs to stop G2G deals until it provides a full disclosure of deal details and has exhausted all avenues for competitive bidding.

Absolutely, really and billions upon billions with foreign funded money to improve Thailands infra structure. Finally some higher speed double tracks links to the NorthEast to make there part of the country more accessable.

\Anyway, here we deal with non-existing deals, with simple fraud, but you know that, don't you?

BTW although I totally agree with your last paragraph on a one-man unelected government as we had with our fugitive criminal Thaksin running his country through his cabinet and his PM, I don't think that's on topic.

[rubl]

The very existence of G2G deals violate competitive bidding laws, particularly when G2G deals are not transparent for public scrutiny. Yet the corruption busting Prayut regime has committed billions of foreign-borrowed funds in G2G deals that will obligate the Thai people for 20+ years with the barest amount of public disclosure of the details.

A one-man unelected government having absolute power over the nation's checks and balances is no more trustworthy than corrupt elected officials. The government needs to stop G2G deals until it provides a full disclosure of deal details and has exhausted all avenues for competitive bidding.

I have been commenting on the recent Rail deals for exactly this reason.

In many countries, there is a clear public record of procurement actions: advertised tenders, bid openings, bid awards.

Only the small stuff in Thailand is treated in this open way. So you can go to tender tracking sites and see a lot of procurement of spare parts and maintenance services for the Thai rail system.

But the major deals are all done in the back room.

This should be a MAJOR reform issue.

Hahahaha. Who am I kidding.

In many countries, only in Thailand, only small stuff, etc., etc.

Actually you don't really say much, you just suggest, insinuate and none of that has to do with fake G2G deals, with fraud as in the charge against this former MoC and his gang.

[halloween]

It appears, Rubl old friend, the main concern is that the carpet is fully removed, and, all that is revealed attracts a similar amount of enthusiasm and attention

Or as in the case by AleG - All the foxes who have visited the Hen house are hounded down with equitable fervour

Otherwise 'Political' is a term that will be broadly applied - so I guess correct procedure would be to wait and see - right?

So it's "political" when the known foxes are hunted, but "democracy" when there is a ban on fox hunting?

[rosst]

It's clearly politically motivated...I mean, sure, the G2G deals have already been shown to he fake, but how's that corruption? Just ''honest mistakes'' if you ask me and so the ''political persecution'' of ''innocent'', democratically elected officials begins....right

It is a good thing you were typing because chances are you could not talk with your tongue planted that far in your cheek.

[ratcatcher]

The anti-democrats merely advancing another cog on their wheel to destroy the PTP, Yingluck, et al. In effect the pro-democracy side of things

But destroying it at the Bangkok-centric elitist political level, will not work. Their reach does not extend beyond their narrow political base.

Attacking the Commerce Minister first, so they can move on to Yingluck as well.

It is this same anti-democrat chain-of-command starting with their favorite, the NACC, on through the judicial system as cover to provide legitimacy.

The same chain-of-command which never puts any component of the anti-democrats in jail, regardless of their excesses.

All in the service of clearing any electoral obstacles in the future for the anti-democrats, that 'reform' may have overlooked.

But a related fact that is conveniently omitted, is that the rice in question is being sold very successfully. It is placing Thailand in a top tier of rice exporters....Little of that money is flowing down to the farmers however...Re-distribution of wealth is not what the anti-democrats are all about.

What a load of nonsense. Only the usual Shin apologists will support the notion that the Shins and their wholly owned political party are pro-democracy. Winning an election and then promptly handing over the government to a convicted criminal fugitive billionaire, who pays a salary to the MP's and Ministers as they work for him and do his bidding, is not democracy.

The Shins and their gang are not socialists or democrats. They are an amply rich elite family who manipulated things to their advantage, reaped billions and got caught out. Not for the first time either. Thoroughly dishonest.

It's alleged they fraudulently forged export contracts, re-sold the rice and pocketed the profits themselves. Robbing the Thai people of billions, get caught and now having to stand trial. Just like any common criminal.

Hardly surprising when their boss is a crook is it?

Some excellent replies on this thread but you are spot on except for one point.

Despitebthe name of their financial vehicle,Ample Rich, the Shins never knew when enough was enough and it was time to take their snout out of the trough.

Strangly this same syndrome also applies to fraudsters and crooks.

Bernie Madoff could have got out a long time before it all went pear shaped as could Alan Bond in Australia or Robert Maxwell in the UK.

Money is like a drug for some people who never see it as a means to enjoy life but more a mental state of mind like gambling.

For all Thaksin's money he cannot enjoy what us mere mortal take for granted.

Simple everyday life.

He has ended up exiled like Napoleon with whom he shares a similar stature.

He has ended up exiled like Napoleon with whom he shares a similar stature.