Ownership of home or apartment in Thailand

[Kenny202]

I thought about a house as wee. I consulted a Thai lawyer. You need to register a Thai corporation. As a foreigner you can only own 49%, but you can tie up the other shares for you to control. A lawyer may cost you 10,000 Bhat(?), registration fees are about 23,000 Bhat per year.

Good luck.

It normally costs 20,000 to 25,000 THB to set up a company and then 10,000 to 15,000 THB per year to maintain it (file the forms, pay the taxes, do the accounting) and anywhere from 25,000 to 50,000 THB to legally close down the company

If you are paying anything else you are getting ripped off

With those sort of fees (if realistic) maybe not worth the expense when only talking about a 500k THB property.

[Kenny202]

Appreciate ur concern but we're starting to miss the point here.

Firstly Im looking for an investment not somewhere to live. The soundness of that investment is up to my judgement, no one here is aware fully of the circumstances of the property or my relationship (My girl doesn't have close family for starts)

Secondly my post was specifically aimed at protecting myself and looking for a way of having full control over this property not buying it in her name and hoping for the best.

Thanks to all for the advice so far.

Looking for an investment that you can't own outright, property is at the peak of a bubble, where the country is on the brink of civil war and the currency is at an all time high ...... madness.

Spain or France would be a better bet.

Mate that's an opinion. An extreme and negative one at that. I'm talking 500k THB here, a little nest egg for my girls future that will hopefully appreciate. I'm not investing or gambling my life savings

[Robert24]

I own a house here in a company name, I hold 51% of the shares, and 3 Thais the remainder (let your other half own the majority of those shares if it makes her feel better, won't affect your control in any way)....no problems at all. Owned and sold one already under the same conditions.

fully agree that it works because you have full control. Just wondering, how you manage to own 51% of the shares? I was told 49% is the maximum a foreigner can own and hence I only own 49% of my company.

[chiang mai]

I own a house here in a company name, I hold 51% of the shares, and 3 Thais the remainder (let your other half own the majority of those shares if it makes her feel better, won't affect your control in any way)....no problems at all. Owned and sold one already under the same conditions.

Cool, except it's against the law for foreigners to hold a majority of shares in a company in Thailand - OK if the risks are fully understood, several friends of mine did not!

[Langsuan Man]

I thought about a house as wee. I consulted a Thai lawyer. You need to register a Thai corporation. As a foreigner you can only own 49%, but you can tie up the other shares for you to control. A lawyer may cost you 10,000 Bhat(?), registration fees are about 23,000 Bhat per year.

Good luck.

It normally costs 20,000 to 25,000 THB to set up a company and then 10,000 to 15,000 THB per year to maintain it (file the forms, pay the taxes, do the accounting) and anywhere from 25,000 to 50,000 THB to legally close down the company

If you are paying anything else you are getting ripped off

With those sort of fees (if realistic) maybe not worth the expense when only talking about a 500k THB property.

Correct, that is why the company route is usually reserved for obtaining a house unless of course there is something really special about a condo that would justify those continuing expenses

[chiang mai]

Appreciate ur concern but we're starting to miss the point here.

Firstly Im looking for an investment not somewhere to live. The soundness of that investment is up to my judgement, no one here is aware fully of the circumstances of the property or my relationship (My girl doesn't have close family for starts)

Secondly my post was specifically aimed at protecting myself and looking for a way of having full control over this property not buying it in her name and hoping for the best.

Thanks to all for the advice so far.

Looking for an investment that you can't own outright, property is at the peak of a bubble, where the country is on the brink of civil war and the currency is at an all time high ...... madness.

Spain or France would be a better bet.

Rubbish and nonsense.

[MaeJoMTB]

Looking for an investment that you can't own outright, property is at the peak of a bubble, where the country is on the brink of civil war and the currency is at an all time high ...... madness.

Spain or France would be a better bet.

Rubbish and nonsense.

You just moved .......

Did you sell your condo, or are you now lumbered with both?

[Langsuan Man]

I own a house here in a company name, I hold 51% of the shares, and 3 Thais the remainder (let your other half own the majority of those shares if it makes her feel better, won't affect your control in any way)....no problems at all. Owned and sold one already under the same conditions.

fully agree that it works because you have full control. Just wondering, how you manage to own 51% of the shares? I was told 49% is the maximum a foreigner can own and hence I only own 49% of my company.

I own a house here in a company name, I hold 51% of the shares, and 3 Thais the remainder (let your other half own the majority of those shares if it makes her feel better, won't affect your control in any way)....no problems at all. Owned and sold one already under the same conditions.

Cool, except it's against the law for foreigners to hold a majority of shares in a company in Thailand - OK if the risks are fully understood, several friends of mine did not!

Owning and controlling are two separate issues. You can only own 49% but through the use of "dilution of shares " you can manage control because as an individual stock holder you can own more than the other stock holders, thus having a "majority" of shares, and assuming the "directorship" of the company

[Robert24]

I own a house here in a company name, I hold 51% of the shares, and 3 Thais the remainder (let your other half own the majority of those shares if it makes her feel better, won't affect your control in any way)....no problems at all. Owned and sold one already under the same conditions.

Cool, except it's against the law for foreigners to hold a majority of shares in a company in Thailand - OK if the risks are fully understood, several friends of mine did not!

to my knowledge only US citizens (and Thais of course) are allowed to own more than 50% of the shares in a company. All other foreigners are restricted to a maximum of 49%.

Not sure what risks you are talking about.

[peterb17]

An investment !!!!

Kenny see it as a home - nothing more. Although some on here will lie through their teeth and claim to have made millions- in the present climate you are more likely to lose money.

Buy a condo - some are really very pleasant- then at least it's legally yours. Otherwise rent.

[Kenny202]

I own a house here in a company name, I hold 51% of the shares, and 3 Thais the remainder (let your other half own the majority of those shares if it makes her feel better, won't affect your control in any way)....no problems at all. Owned and sold one already under the same conditions.

Cool, except it's against the law for foreigners to hold a majority of shares in a company in Thailand - OK if the risks are fully understood, several friends of mine did not!

to my knowledge only US citizens (and Thais of course) are allowed to own more than 50% of the shares in a company. All other foreigners are restricted to a maximum of 49%.

Not sure what risks you are talking about.

Really? Why would US citizens receive preferential treatment like that?

[Kenny202]

An investment !!!!

Kenny see it as a home - nothing more. Although some on here will lie through their teeth and claim to have made millions- in the present climate you are more likely to lose money.

Buy a condo - some are really very pleasant- then at least it's legally yours. Otherwise rent.

For the last time I don't need to rent. I have a home. The present climate?...at least where I live is perfect for buying now. People are defaulting left right and centre. How do you figure about "the present climate"? The economy is down and I'm in a farming area and the outlook is bleak. If I was selling now or planning on buying and selling in the near future yes would not be a good idea. A condo is nice sure...but for retirees who have plenty of money, want somewhere secure to live and happy to pay double what a Thai would pay. Yeah I get it. If I was 60+ and wanted to buy somewhere easily and safely I'd go that way. But a condo, particularly if purchased new could hardly be considered a good investment now or in the future Edited July 1, 2015 by Kenny202

[chiang mai]

I own a house here in a company name, I hold 51% of the shares, and 3 Thais the remainder (let your other half own the majority of those shares if it makes her feel better, won't affect your control in any way)....no problems at all. Owned and sold one already under the same conditions.

Cool, except it's against the law for foreigners to hold a majority of shares in a company in Thailand - OK if the risks are fully understood, several friends of mine did not!

to my knowledge only US citizens (and Thais of course) are allowed to own more than 50% of the shares in a company. All other foreigners are restricted to a maximum of 49%.

Not sure what risks you are talking about.

Incorrect, do your research, Americans are in the same boat as every other non-Thai. You are referring I believe to the Amity Treaty which is something else entirely.

Edited July 1, 2015 by chiang mai

[little mary sunshine]

You just can't cure stupid, can you....No

Foreigner can own more than 49% of

A Thai Company. Just checked with an

Attorney. People can't control what they

Don't own. Control remains in the 51%

Thai names.

[khunPer]

»I would like to protect my investment in the future and have control to sell get my money back etc should I wish. Can I buy in her name yet somehow retain control / right to sell future etc?«

To my knowledge, not really a chance; however, my lawyer told about having a loan declared on the land deed as a servitude – just like a mortgage – giving some security for the investment and that the land (and house) cannot be sold, without the loan paid in full, including any legal interest. You will need to check with a lawyer for further details.

Usufruct may be an option, but will not give you financial protection. Company way can be both difficult (today) and costly with 40k to 50k baht (or more) in annual expenses. You can own a house, but it probably need to be separated from the land already when you buy; or buy land, make usufruct or superficies, and build a house where all paperwork is in your name only.

I would recommend checking the “loan method” with a lawyer, as that may be the cheapest and simplest method to keep some level of control of the investment.

[topt]

What you want to do is extremely risky. Anything in joint names can be used as security for a loan without your knowledge, which then may become your responsibility if things go awry.

It's all very well to say you trust your missus; however, always keep in mind her family comes first, you second.

Better to rent and ensure your own finances are fenced off. Thai Visa forums are full of tales of woe from falangs who failed to do that.

Appreciate ur concern but we're starting to miss the point here.

Firstly Im looking for an investment not somewhere to live. The soundness of that investment is up to my judgement, no one here is aware fully of the circumstances of the property or my relationship (My girl doesn't have close family for starts)

Secondly my post was specifically aimed at protecting myself and looking for a way of having full control over this property not buying it in her name and hoping for the best.

Thanks to all for the advice so far.

OP here is a suggestion to consider -

Have a agreement/contract with your "partner" where you lend her the money to buy the property which she has to pay back if sold etc etc

Have a Usufruct placed on the chanote

You may not get the benefit of the increased value (if any) but it could safeguard your outlay.

There was a lively debate here - http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/803157-usefrukt/ about Usufructs with a practicing lawyer chiming in at post number 42. If you can get hold of him he may be able to talk you through the options which may be able to work for you - and he never used to be overly expensive

[MaeJoMTB]

There was a lively debate here - http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/803157-usefrukt/ about Usufructs with a practicing lawyer chiming in at post number 42. If you can get hold of him he may be able to talk you through the options which may be able to work for you - and he never used to be overly expensive

If you use anything except the form at the amphur office, it can be overturned.

Thai lawyers are generally useless money pits.

[Kenny202]

What you want to do is extremely risky. Anything in joint names can be used as security for a loan without your knowledge, which then may become your responsibility if things go awry.

It's all very well to say you trust your missus; however, always keep in mind her family comes first, you second.

Better to rent and ensure your own finances are fenced off. Thai Visa forums are full of tales of woe from falangs who failed to do that.

Appreciate ur concern but we're starting to miss the point here.

Firstly Im looking for an investment not somewhere to live. The soundness of that investment is up to my judgement, no one here is aware fully of the circumstances of the property or my relationship (My girl doesn't have close family for starts)

Secondly my post was specifically aimed at protecting myself and looking for a way of having full control over this property not buying it in her name and hoping for the best.

Thanks to all for the advice so far.

OP here is a suggestion to consider -

Have a agreement/contract with your "partner" where you lend her the money to buy the property which she has to pay back if sold etc etc

Have a Usufruct placed on the chanote

You may not get the benefit of the increased value (if any) but it could safeguard your outlay.

There was a lively debate here - http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/803157-usefrukt/ about Usufructs with a practicing lawyer chiming in at post number 42. If you can get hold of him he may be able to talk you through the options which may be able to work for you - and he never used to be overly expensive

Am looking at this option now. A usufruct in combination with a loan. This seems to be how most manage things and pretty much covers all bases. Only downside of this is probably all you can expect to get back is your original purchase price and maybe some interest. If we quit in the next few years I'll get my money back and she may make a few dollars. If I croak in the meantime the property will become hers and the debt null and void. Everyone covered and hopefully happy.

Silly as it sounds me protecting the investment from my other, the purpose of the small investment is for her future. Having said that should we split in the next couple of years I would not want to lose my money or it infact be it an incentive for us splitting up. Happens all to often here

[ozyjon]

Well I was wondering about that too. If I marry her and then buy the property I'm sure she can only claim what we aquire or she contributes too after the marriage. If I buy the property with money I had before we met does she have a claim?

Reason i don't want to be legally married in Thailand is not splitting 50% of what I have in Thailand but I believe the Australian govt allows thai wives to pursue Australian husband's assets in Australia same as an Australian wife wud. Ie at least 50% of everything even after a couple of years of marriage. I just can't risk that however much I love and trust her

Remember also, as an Aussie she can claim to be your de-facto wife

(if she knows the law) and will be entitled to 50% of your estate or

any assets acquired after you started your relationship,

any assets you had before you started your relationship remain yours

BUT i think she can still claim 50% of your super regardless. ALSO

remember pre-nup agreements are an American-Hollywood movie

thing, they aren't recognized in an Australian court, how do i know?

I've had friends and family members in the same situation

ps the Filipinos are worse, they know the laws better than us.

good luck and get good advice, in oz there is free legal advice

from CES

[dotpoom]

Please please let me apologise for an earlier mistake I posted on here. I said I can hold up to 51% in a Company....of course this was not correct....I can only hold up to 49%. Again, I am sorry for this and I hope I did not cause too much confusion.

[topt]

There was a lively debate here - http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/803157-usefrukt/ about Usufructs with a practicing lawyer chiming in at post number 42. If you can get hold of him he may be able to talk you through the options which may be able to work for you - and he never used to be overly expensive

If you use anything except the form at the amphur office, it can be overturned.

Thai lawyers are generally useless money pits.

1 - Says who?

2 - Useless generalisation - also the lawyer referred to is not Thai

[Kenny202]

Well I was wondering about that too. If I marry her and then buy the property I'm sure she can only claim what we aquire or she contributes too after the marriage. If I buy the property with money I had before we met does she have a claim?

Reason i don't want to be legally married in Thailand is not splitting 50% of what I have in Thailand but I believe the Australian govt allows thai wives to pursue Australian husband's assets in Australia same as an Australian wife wud. Ie at least 50% of everything even after a couple of years of marriage. I just can't risk that however much I love and trust her

Remember also, as an Aussie she can claim to be your de-facto wife

(if she knows the law) and will be entitled to 50% of your estate or

any assets acquired after you started your relationship,

any assets you had before you started your relationship remain yours

BUT i think she can still claim 50% of your super regardless. ALSO

remember pre-nup agreements are an American-Hollywood movie

thing, they aren't recognized in an Australian court, how do i know?

I've had friends and family members in the same situation

ps the Filipinos are worse, they know the laws better than us.

good luck and get good advice, in oz there is free legal advice

from CES

Jesus! Some of you people here have to stop sprouting off advice where you clearly have no firm knowledge or experience. In everything I have done here since arriving....driving license, visas, 90 day reporting etc so much BS and advice just plain wrong. These people with "friends" Really! and how many friends and relatives can you possibly have had that have had issues with Thai defactos? I'm sure some mean to be helpful but do others do it to be argumentative or contrary or just want to appear to be "in the know" I pity some who follow this advice without checking it out fully.

A Thai de facto lady living with an Australian in Thailand (unless time spent together in Australia) cannot apply to Australia for anything. A legally married Thai wife married in Thailand can apply to an Australian court for similar to what an Australian wife could claim though this isn't as straight forward as many have suggested. Only a very tenacious and motivated woman would pursue this.

Pre nup's aren't recognised in an Australian court? Where did you get this information from? I've had 2....one of them tested in court in my favour. A pre nup can be legally challenged as can anything but they certainly are "recognised".

Sorry mate, don't mean to be rude but there is just too much of this "helpfulness" on TV. You have taken bits and pieces and half truths and come up with a lot of non sense really

Edited July 1, 2015 by Kenny202

[ableguy]

If it's registered as condo and not apartment, you should be able to buy a unit. Alternatively you can still go the way with a company. You don't need a lot capital ( certainly not 2 m baht ) but you will have additional cost to run it and you need a lawyer to set it up. Frankly the cleanest way set up is a condo that you own 100%. The other options are:

1) Usufruct agreement: your gf owns 100% and you make a usufruct so you can stay in it the rest of your life. But you won't own it.

2) lease agreement: max 30 years. Your gf is owner but you can stay in it because you have a 30 yr lease on it.

3) company: you have some set up costs and some cost to run it. And it's legally grey. If one day the government decides you only established it to own property, you may be forced to sell your stake in the company to a Thai or sell the property. Not a perfect solution but works.

Lease agreement is a no go, your gf can borrow money useing the house as collateral, she don't repay the loan the bank repossess and you are out on you ass , this advice from my lawyer, my usufruct on a new property cost her fee 8000. Baht

[Robert24]

You just can't cure stupid, can you....No

Foreigner can own more than 49% of

A Thai Company. Just checked with an

Attorney. People can't control what they

Don't own. Control remains in the 51%

Thai names.

Control and ownership can be structured differently. You don't have to but you can. You can control 100% with 49% of shares.

[chiang mai]

There was a lively debate here - http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/803157-usefrukt/ about Usufructs with a practicing lawyer chiming in at post number 42. If you can get hold of him he may be able to talk you through the options which may be able to work for you - and he never used to be overly expensive

If you use anything except the form at the amphur office, it can be overturned.

Thai lawyers are generally useless money pits.

More rubbish and nonsense. Mate, where do you get this stuff from!

[rhodie]

Kenny, there is a reason why a condo is more expensive and that is because a foreigner can own it. The house route will be hers and trying to circumvent anything comes with risk.

The best route I think is via a loan, especially seeing the reason you want to buy it. Split soon and she has to sell and pay you. (Still with risk anyway) That way after some years you are happier giving her the place and you can forgo the loan.

Good luck.

[chiang mai]

Just a quick note on the mechanics of an usufruct:

An usufruct gives the holder SOLE right of abode, nobody else is allowed to live there without the usufruct holders permission.

Imagine that as the holder of an usufruct you decide to get out of the deal and you instruct the owner to sell, something they cannot do without your approval and a part of that approval involves specifics of where the sales proceeds will go and to whom - sensibly this would include a percentage to the owner for their trouble, I have in mind perhaps 10%. The alternative, if the owner says no, is that they are encumbered with an asset they cannot monetize, potentially they will never see a penny from the sale of the property if they die before the usufruct holder. Now call me silly if you like but I'm guessing that the owner of the property would rather have 10% cash in their property than nothing at all, it therefore follows in my world that the potential loss, under an usufruct and in most cases, is really quite small..

[Kenny202]

To all u guys who have usufruct / loan agreements in place....Just wondering how the timing of it all works? It looks like u can only put the usufruct in place after you have paid for the property in Ur wife's name. That sounds like she would then have a choice to reneg and simply keep the land? Can everything be done ie land purchase, tfer money to buyer, loan, and usufruct all at the same time?

[MaeJoMTB]

To all u guys who have usufruct / loan agreements in place....Just wondering how the timing of it all works? It looks like u can only put the usufruct in place after you have paid for the property in Ur wife's name. That sounds like she would then have a choice to reneg and simply keep the land? Can everything be done ie land purchase, tfer money to buyer, loan, and usufruct all at the same time?

I have a loan agreement in place.

I paid 10% deposit, SCB bank lent her the rest at 6.9% pa.

No need for anything foolish involving large amounts of my money.

[chiang mai]

To all u guys who have usufruct / loan agreements in place....Just wondering how the timing of it all works? It looks like u can only put the usufruct in place after you have paid for the property in Ur wife's name. That sounds like she would then have a choice to reneg and simply keep the land? Can everything be done ie land purchase, tfer money to buyer, loan, and usufruct all at the same time?

It's all done at the same time, in the Land Office. After the sales tax is paid a new chanotte is prepared, the buyers name appears on the front and the usufruct holders name on the reverse, there is no opportunity to renege. Unless you speak fluent Thai I would recommend you let a lawyer handle this aspect, if you decide to go this route.