Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[Rykbanlor]

For those who don't undrstand the Thainess of this case look at the following with English subtitles available.

Sondhi may be a controversial character but he doesn't give a sh*t what he says and will call a spade a spade, if he feels like it. Some one so important that he couldn't be investigated tried to have him assassinated and even that hasn't stopped him. BTW the police chief at the time of his attempted assassination was the brother of Prawit, who is mentioned in the clip as giving the green light for the alleged frame up. He is now head of security of the NCPO and as a former army chief, who promoted Prayut, is his alleged mentor and leader of the 'Eastern Tigers' army faction.

I hope the translation (subtitles) is wrong.

I hope this is another case of mass 'misunderstanding'.

Because if it is true and correct it is a condemnation of the very concept of "Thainess".

How can such an ugly thing hope to be a part of ASEAN?

Unless the rest of ASEAN countries are without any morals or dignity?

No, I'm afraid it's all correct. That's how it goes. It's been mentioned before, but if you google around about the Saudi blue diamond affair you'll soon get a feel for it.

Also, there was a case a few years back of a Canadian, Leo Del Pinto, who was shot by a drunk cop in Pai. Witnesses were too scared to come forward, the Police came up with a self-defence claim which was later discredited and all that happened was the cop got moved to another province and remained on active duty. Oh, until 2 or 3 years later, when he pistol whipped his new wife to death, and then they finally decided to put him in the Clink.

Or the case of the Kanchanaburi cop who shot a couple of tourists, and the 2 girls who died in a hotel on Phi Phi island from inhaling phosphine used to destroy bedbugs which should be handled properly and given the right amount of time to de-fume - the police came up with a lot of theories for that case all of which were nonsense, and to this day nobody has been prosecuted for causing death by recklessness or whatever the legal term would be.

And poor Kirsty Jones who was raped and murdered in Chiangmai, her mother still seeking justice 12 years later - in that case they tried to pin it on an ethnic minority tour guide, and various other people.

Shits real man.

[loonodingle]

Re Andy Hall's comment regarding the lack of 'interest' from Thai media. It could be that the Thai media has been 'warned off' reporting on this trial, in case it brings a backlash from the Thai populace. Internal face-threatening antagonism could be more serious to the ruling elite, than fielding foreign media by insinuating that they misunderstood. Thailand is all about Thailand, no-one else.

I would go as far to say that they couldn't give a s*it about the B2, the foreign media, or the views here on TVF. They couldn't give a sh*t about the defence or its (proposed) destruction of the prosecution's case. As long as there are stars in the sky, they'll carry on doing what they've been doing for centuries.

If I'm correct, it could be more likely that the trial would continue its course and that the B2 would be found guilty, despite everything. I think saving face over this is not even dreamt about at higher levels - unless the Thai populace intervenes.

Thus I would hope the defence don't miss out on educating and enlightening the masses along the way. That would be the straw that breaks officialdom's backs.

I believe you are right, despite the case being seriously flawed it rolls along and no matter what new evidence is presented by the defense it will still roll along with the occasional attempt at deflection of criticism by the big chief in Bangkok.

Oh the UK DNA does not match, there must have been some mistake in the UK forensics. Case proceeds.

One of the major problems is that when these revelations come out such as the lack of original DNA samples or the contradictions on the hoe and where it was and who wiped blood of it etc, they do not get adequately challenged in court because of the system. The experts are the police and the police witnesses, anybody else is shrugged off. The have been reports of this in the case already by the defense.

As far as the prosecution is concerned its just a script their following, the case is wrapped up, they don't even bother bringing some of the crime scene photos with them in their shopping trolley saying they had no budget for it!

My gut feeling now is that this new evidence the defense has from the UK is in fact DNA that contradicts the present DNA results and thats why they've been conveniently finished by the RTP forensics so they cannot be checked again.

The expert Mike Moulden that is the expert field of expertise is CRIME SCENE forensics. Whilst he will no doubt have DNA expertise my gut feeling is the crime scene and what really took place. What wounds the body has that contradicts the version put forward.

Have you seen the guys CV?

The CV is impressive. However, whatever he presents to the court, unless it's alive and kicking, will be dismissed by the prosecution/police witnesses using the simple counter phrase 'we are the experts, he is mistaken'.

IMO, that is (in essence) what will happen as it's already happened in the trial. And that's the end of it. No more cross-examining. Down to the judge to decide on whose evidence to rely on.

So what if part of the autopsy involves an X ray which showed fragments of a bullet in the victim. As you probably know they breakup on entry Stephen.

[ABCer]

The average Thai does not care a damn about this case and many will not even have heard of it s existence. They just happily carry on eating Somtam and watching soap operas, nothing else really matters.

bangkokrick,

I want to know where and how did you meet my wife?

[JLCrab]

Are they reporting this in the local news? Ive not seen it on any nightly news on tv. I wonder why? This is a big case and worthy of coverage. Is it because it was only two farang killed and a couple of lowly burmese guys accused? Or are they under instructions not to make any mention of it?

I have noticed the same as you, its not on the news.

Dunno, but my guess it is not considered very news worthy.

Farang are taken out relatively frequently in LoS. And when kon Pama is involved, who cares.

My Guess: The military has asked to mute the case to prevent Thais fro becoming Unhappy again, after-all its tarnishing their Lilly white culture and police force

The average Thai does not care a damn about this case and many will not even have heard of it s existence. They just happily carry on eating Somtam and watching soap operas, nothing else really matters.

If most farangs don't care -- excepting maybe those on here -- then why should the average Thai care? Koh Tao Pub Crawl photo 10 JUL 2015 --

https://www.facebook.com/195259667186954/photos/pb.195259667186954.-2207520000.1436775105./916317651747815/?type=1&theater

https://scontent-kul1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/11218864_916317911747789_1136168655140147748_n.jpg?oh=25dc7afc7edb6ed048d1a8c28dc5d95b&oe=5623196D

Edited July 13, 2015 by JLCrab

[partington]

Does this mean there will be a break in proceedings until the 22nd?

Yes it does, but it's news that it will be for three consecutive days from 22nd. And IMO, this is the critical evidence. If the defence have their expert available, it could lead to a lot of fireworks - if they are permitted to challenge the witnesses.

As the DNA evidence from the victim seems to be the only evidence apparently linking the defendants directly to the crime, surely the defense priority must be to recruit an expert in DNA forensics to examine and challenge this evidence, as retesting is no longer an option.

To do this, the cross-examination has to focus on the lab personnel who did the tests, together with their notebooks and original data. I don't think the expert advisor referred to above has anything like the DNA forensic experience to do this: it needs to be someone who can look at original data: DNA preparation methods, negative and positive controls, peaks from a sequencing machine, probability of match analysis, and so on, and be able to tell instantly if they are what the police claim them to be.

In the Amanda Knox case, where an appeal was successful on challenging DNA evidence, the appeal counsel experts went through the original lab documentation closely enough to notice things like where a work list showed 40 samples were run, less than 40 results were presented. This led them to be able to find the missing results and to show that they were controls that showed peaks when there should be none. They also looked at peaks on the original graphs from the sequencer machine and were able to show they were smaller than international standards would allow to be used as evidence, and so on.

If the RTP evidence really is fake, or technically inadequate, this kind of scrutiny is essential.

To be honest, even if the defense did have an expert capable of doing this, I don't think the judges will take any notice of deficiencies that are pointed out unless they are major, such as the defense being able to suggest that the evidence is completely fabricated (for example if none of the original data - peaks from a sequencing machine - can be produced), or that samples meant to be prepared from rape kit swabs cannot be (because there are no traces in it of the victim's DNA- which can never be completely eliminated).

This would require detailed technical discusssion which the Thai court proceedings seem too short to contain. In most western countries the trial would go on as long as needed to present and question all the evidence. Here it seems like you have to cram everything into three days, so if the police don't want to produce requested documents ( e.g. lab notebooks), they can just delay three days, and so avoid it altogether, and never have to accede to defense requests.

It's not a system that inspires confidence in its ability to produce justice.

Edited July 13, 2015 by partington

[webfact]

Lack of Evidence, Local Media Coverage Adds to Mystery of Koh Tao Murder
By Khaosod English


Police bring Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo to Koh Samui court on 9 July 2015.

BANGKOK — The first week of the trial of two Burmese men accused of murdering British tourists on a Thai island last year has done little to shed light on a case that has been shrouded in mystery from the start.

Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo, both 22, have been charged with murder, rape, and theft over the deaths of British travelers David Miller, 24, and Hannah Witheridge, 23. The tourists’ badly beaten bodies were found on Koh Tao’s Sairee beach in the early morning of 15 September 2014.

The gruesome murder shocked the idyllic resort island and captured the attention of the foreign press, who detailed polices’ every stumble in a wayward investigation that ended with the arrest of Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo several weeks later.

The suspects initially confessed after being interrogated by police without a professional interpreter or lawyer, but later declared their innocence and said they were tortured. They could face the death penalty if convicted.

Suspicions that the Burmese men were used as scapegoats to wrap up a case that was threatening to harm Thailand’s tourist industry were compounded last year by reports of locals refusing the speak to journalists, citing fears of “powerful families” on the 21 km2 island.

Despite hopes that the first round of witness examinations in a court on nearby Koh Samui last week would provide clarity on the murder, questions remain about police’s alleged “watertight” case, and rumors about a suspected cover-up continue to flourish.

'Used up evidence'

In response to the defense team’s repeated calls for access to forensic evidence that the prosecution says links Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo to the rape and murder, police revealed in court that swabs taken from semen found in Witheridge’s body are no longer available because they were “used up” in the original testing, which was conducted privately.

“For police to say they don’t have these materials completely undermines the credibility of their investigation,” said Andy Hall, a migrants' rights activist from the UK who is assisting the defendants.

Full story: http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1436774626


-- Khaosod English 2015-07-13

[Bung]

The local media aren't touching it as it is now showing thailand in a bad light. A very bad light. It has become a sensitive topic now with evidence of police incompitance, sinister forces and the realisation that the B2 are innocent and the real murderers are still at large. It is potentially very embarrassing for some extremely powerful people who endorsed the polices work initially and in fact rewarded it.

This story is not bringing hapiness back to the people.

Remember the story of the chinese tourist killed at chiang mai zoo zip lining recently was withheld a few days because a certain someone was visiting chiang mai at the time and they didnt want to spoil his "bringing happiness" visit with bad news.....

I think they are spending this time furiously thinking of ways to finish this without important people losing face, certain people not being implicated (after all, thats been paid for already) and have the simplest excuse to declare a mistrail and a low ranking guy take the fall for screwing up.

Or they might just rush through a guilty verdict, its only 3 judges decision after all, show the world a big middle finger, execute them on the quiet or lock them up forever and just carry on as normal. That wouldnt surprise me one bit unfortunately.

[brewsterbudgen]

If most farangs don't care -- excepting maybe those on here -- then why should the average Thai care? Koh Tao Pub Crawl photo 10 JUL 2015 --

https://www.facebook.com/195259667186954/photos/pb.195259667186954.-2207520000.1436775105./916317651747815/?type=1&theater

https://scontent-kul1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/11218864_916317911747789_1136168655140147748_n.jpg?oh=25dc7afc7edb6ed048d1a8c28dc5d95b&oe=5623196D

Perhaps we should be asking why so many on this Forum seem to care so much about this case, to the extent that there are pages and pages

of, sometimes salacious, detail and pointless speculation?

It's a horrible murder and there has been plenty of typical mishandling, cock-ups and potential corruption or malpractice, but that's hardly

unusual in this part of the world. Is it just because the victims were British and attractive?

[BlackJack]

It must be a parents worst nightmare

[stephenterry]

The CV is impressive. However, whatever he presents to the court, unless it's alive and kicking, will be dismissed by the prosecution/police witnesses using the simple counter phrase 'we are the experts, he is mistaken'.

IMO, that is (in essence) what will happen as it's already happened in the trial. And that's the end of it. No more cross-examining. Down to the judge to decide on whose evidence to rely on.

So what if part of the autopsy involves an X ray which showed fragments of a bullet in the victim. As you probably know they breakup on entry Stephen.

No I didn't know that, Loon. But that would be a perfect example of 'alive and kicking' in the sense it can't be dismissed. However, I have a feeling it's more to do with a different DNA autopsy finding (that is regarded as significant), and I think even if they come up with a non-asian DNA present it could still founder on the mistake/contamination counter-argument.

I sincerely hope it's more than that, and if it is a bullet fragment, I think everyone on here (apart from the odd few) will be celebrating. That reminds me, it's pre-dinner beer time. Thanks for putting me in a good mood.

[Thaidream]

The prior poster Partington has actually hit the nail on the head. The defense must get a renowned expert on DNA to testify in the court. We already know the crime scene was contaminated and appears there is no chain of custody on the DNA so there is already reasonable doubt creeping in but an expert NA expert who debunks the prosecution claim that the DNA evidence is a done deal would put a real crimp in the case and at least set it up for successful appeal if the B2 are convicted. I also believe so much scepticism on this case is a result of the many cases mentioned by one of the previous posters involving botched investigations. Google Sherry Ann Duncan to add one more to the fire.

[Gandtee]

If there are any sceptics out there I suggest watching the film 'Z.'

[SOTIRIOS]

........of course....

[scorecard]

Are there any court proceedings today (Mon 13 July) or is the case now on hold waiting for the retesting and results of the DNA stuff?

[Scully]

One of the first indications I seen of a foreigner that may have been covering up for the owner of in touch (mon) was this on Facebook .

clause.jpg

ckause2.jpg

This guy states "All the AC staff have been dna tested and cleared", not a 100% credible source however another source stating dna was taken before.

[Mooner]

If most farangs don't care -- excepting maybe those on here -- then why should the average Thai care? Koh Tao Pub Crawl photo 10 JUL 2015 --

https://www.facebook.com/195259667186954/photos/pb.195259667186954.-2207520000.1436775105./916317651747815/?type=1&theater

https://scontent-kul1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/11218864_916317911747789_1136168655140147748_n.jpg?oh=25dc7afc7edb6ed048d1a8c28dc5d95b&oe=5623196D

Perhaps we should be asking why so many on this Forum seem to care so much about this case, to the extent that there are pages and pages

of, sometimes salacious, detail and pointless speculation?

It's a horrible murder and there has been plenty of typical mishandling, cock-ups and potential corruption or malpractice, but that's hardly

unusual in this part of the world. Is it just because the victims were British and attractive?

Im thinking because of the malicious of Hannah's injuries coupled with the incompetence and obvious inconsistency of the RTP statements that led MOST people to believe there was something fishy going on very early in the investigation.

[starkey_rich]

Imagine what the family was going through sitting through this utter and absolute farce.

Which dim wit said the police did outstanding work????

[loonodingle]

The CV is impressive. However, whatever he presents to the court, unless it's alive and kicking, will be dismissed by the prosecution/police witnesses using the simple counter phrase 'we are the experts, he is mistaken'.

IMO, that is (in essence) what will happen as it's already happened in the trial. And that's the end of it. No more cross-examining. Down to the judge to decide on whose evidence to rely on.

So what if part of the autopsy involves an X ray which showed fragments of a bullet in the victim. As you probably know they breakup on entry Stephen.

No I didn't know that, Loon. But that would be a perfect example of 'alive and kicking' in the sense it can't be dismissed. However, I have a feeling it's more to do with a different DNA autopsy finding (that is regarded as significant), and I think even if they come up with a non-asian DNA present it could still founder on the mistake/contamination counter-argument.

I sincerely hope it's more than that, and if it is a bullet fragment, I think everyone on here (apart from the odd few) will be celebrating. That reminds me, it's pre-dinner beer time. Thanks for putting me in a good mood.

Its normal practice Stephen. It will show any fragments and the damage to the bone structure that the old scalpel and probing doesn't highlight. I would be extremely surprised if the file didn't include these facts

http://www2.le.ac.uk/departments/emfpu/imaging/brief-history

[CapeThai]

Is Thai murder trial set to collapse?

KOH SAMUI: -- Families of British backpackers fly home as defence lawyers call for suspects to be acquitted over claims of missing evidence and crime-scene blunders

The families of murdered British backpackers Hannah Witheridge and David Miller flew home from Thailand yesterday as the legal team representing the accused claimed the case was on the verge of collapse.

Burmese migrants Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo face a possible death penalty if they are convicted of sexually assaulting and killing Hannah, 23, with a hoe, and clubbing David, 24, unconscious before leaving him to drown on a beach on Kao Tao island last September.

Hannahs father and brother, and Davids parents and brother last week flew to neighbouring Kao Samui for the three-day opening of the trial, where they were visibly shocked as photographs of the bodies were casually handed around the court.

The case marred by claims of missing evidence and crime-scene blunders was adjourned yesterday until July 22 while the defendants lawyers prepare to call for their acquittal.

We hope by the end of the prosecution case, we will have destroyed it and we will show that it is completely lacking in credibility, said Andy Hall, a British migrant rights activist working with defence lawyers.

Mr Hall said the defence held incredibly significant information from an independent authority with which it would discredit the prosecution case when the trial reopens. He declined to give more details but the information is believed to relate to DNA samples obtained from Hannahs body after it was returned to the UK.

Kao Taos migrant workers were subjected to mass DNA testing before Zaw and Wai, both 22, were arrested amid global media attention and intense pressure on police to find the killers.

The pair confessed to the murders but later withdrew their statements, claiming police had tortured them. Police insist they have DNA evidence linking them to the murders but said key samples could not be independently tested because they had been used up by forensics teams. They also admitted the crime scene had been contaminated, and that the hoe was removed before it was forensically examined.

Police have been accused of making scapegoats of migrants amid claims that the real killers were Thai men linked to powerful families who are said to run Kao Tao.

Davids father said on Friday the families were keeping an open mind. The trial is due to last until September, with a verdict expected in October.

--Mail Online: 2015-07-12

Absolutely as they have nothing except for scapegoating evidence which will now conveniently disappear due to the British having their own forensic evidence now....

There has been mention of a tourist took photo's of Hannah with a person connected to AC bar hopefully this may be some of the evidence the defence team are holding.

IF, and it's a vey big if....a picture was presented of one or both of the victims in the presence of a certain person who was a prime suspect at the start of the investigation.....wow that would blow this case sky high

Would have already happened if certain people was not so well connected and though protected

[MockingJay]

If most farangs don't care -- excepting maybe those on here -- then why should the average Thai care? Koh Tao Pub Crawl photo 10 JUL 2015 --

https://www.facebook.com/195259667186954/photos/pb.195259667186954.-2207520000.1436775105./916317651747815/?type=1&theater

https://scontent-kul1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/11218864_916317911747789_1136168655140147748_n.jpg?oh=25dc7afc7edb6ed048d1a8c28dc5d95b&oe=5623196D

Perhaps we should be asking why so many on this Forum seem to care so much about this case, to the extent that there are pages and pages

of, sometimes salacious, detail and pointless speculation?

It's a horrible murder and there has been plenty of typical mishandling, cock-ups and potential corruption or malpractice, but that's hardly

unusual in this part of the world. Is it just because the victims were British and attractive?

Besides all those hollow posts of official RTP story supporters (shills), this - by far - is one of the dumbest posts I ever read in any of the Koh Tao double murder threads...

[stickylies]

This case is crap.

jup. that I knew 68 pages ago already...

I think most of us knew that 10 months ago

So did I but I was too busy having a life then, ie. not really checking in on TV, hub of speculation, wanna-be sherlocks and bored geriatrics.

[KamalaRider]

to an overly posted above: So if the leased land on Koh Tao is worth hundreds of millions, then the land on Koh Samui must be worth billions. Why would those those people with just as many if not greater connections and with properties worth into the billions allow this guy to run the show on their island just to cover up for his little brat?

They belong to the same "family"?

[KamalaRider]

The headman connections are already well known and easy to verify! His power is therefore not limited to "his" island.

Would be so nice if the press would publish something about that! They are not forced to stick to suspects and it would make a great story...

There are single hotels on Koh Samui that are worth more than his entire KT land holdings. He may run Koh Tao like a private fiefdom but I've seen no indication, especially with the first week's trial proceedings, that he has any real power once off the island, well known as you say are his connections.

Please name one.

[stickylies]

Perhaps we should be asking why so many on this Forum seem to care so much about this case, to the extent that there are pages and pages

of, sometimes salacious, detail and pointless speculation?

It's a horrible murder and there has been plenty of typical mishandling, cock-ups and potential corruption or malpractice, but that's hardly

unusual in this part of the world. Is it just because the victims were British and attractive?

it's a combination of empathy/compassion, boredom, drama/sensation and a deeply routed distrust (hatred?) towards the system they have chosen to live in (ie. LOS with its cops, its corruption, its legal system, its somdtam, etc).

[BoristheBlade]

If most farangs don't care -- excepting maybe those on here -- then why should the average Thai care? Koh Tao Pub Crawl photo 10 JUL 2015 --

https://www.facebook.com/195259667186954/photos/pb.195259667186954.-2207520000.1436775105./916317651747815/?type=1&theater

https://scontent-kul1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/11218864_916317911747789_1136168655140147748_n.jpg?oh=25dc7afc7edb6ed048d1a8c28dc5d95b&oe=5623196D

Perhaps we should be asking why so many on this Forum seem to care so much about this case, to the extent that there are pages and pages

of, sometimes salacious, detail and pointless speculation?

It's a horrible murder and there has been plenty of typical mishandling, cock-ups and potential corruption or malpractice, but that's hardly

unusual in this part of the world. Is it just because the victims were British and attractive?

Ganged raped by at least 3 men, then battered beyond recognition...I would not call that a usual murder in any country.

[zaphod reborn]

'Used up evidence'

In response to the defense team’s repeated calls for access to forensic evidence that the prosecution says links Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo to the rape and murder, police revealed in court that swabs taken from semen found in Witheridge’s body are no longer available because they were “used up” in the original testing, which was conducted privately. “For police to say they don’t have these materials completely undermines the credibility of their investigation,” said Andy Hall, a migrants' rights activist from the UK who is assisting the defendants.

By western evidentiary standards, only an acquittal would be an acceptable result. The swabs taken off the bodies are the only DNA tying the defendants to the crime. If the swabs cannot be independently tested by the defendant's experts, in all common law jurisdictions, the prosecution's evidence would be thrown out. Destruction of evidence, even through testing, violates court rules aimed at fairness.

It seems the only evidence that can undergo secondary DNA testing is the garden hoe and perhaps the cigarette butts. The hoe has been contaminated and probably won't produce a positive test for the defendants' DNA. The cigarette butts prove nothing, even if they have traces of DNA from the defendants.

The Court will let this drag out, but won't let itself become a subject of international mockery by allowing a conviction to stand on evidence which can't be independently verified.

[loonodingle]

This case is crap.

jup. that I knew 68 pages ago already...

I think most of us knew that 10 months ago

So did I but I was too busy having a life then, ie. not really checking in on TV, hub of speculation, wanna-be sherlocks and bored geriatrics.

Good to see you have joined the club now then. What a daft @rsed comment to make...

[sambum]

 

thailandchilli

What was it you said in an earlier post "I'm just one who is prepared to wait and continue reading the many satirical posts dreamt up by the experts."

Sounds like you've now joined in the many satirical posts you apparently identified.

My little jibe was just a reflection on what he wrote, nothing more, nothing less, so yes a little satire. Being select in what you want to have a dig about? Take the whole post in context and you well know that I was referring to some of the ridiculous theories and scenarios being put forward as objective views and conclusions to this incident.

Yep your little jibe that I was selectively highlighting, nothing more, nothing less.

Which particular ridiculous theories are you referring to?

I'll start with the first example:

Many months ago I saw on CSILA a post stating that Hannah may have been shot. I read and found it way out there, no possibility for this. But then an expert from Belgium did some scientific studies on it. It got me thinking but after a few days I again dismissed it as ridiculous.

Fast forward to a few days ago when this came up again, this time from a credible newspaper The Times who said they had seen photos which they said showed possible shrapnel wounds on Hannah. Then we get reports that the defense is going to be saying that this is what happened and that they also have new "very significant evidence" from the UK autopsy reports and other sources.

So maybe this is not such a ridiculous theory after all. Not saying that its true but apparently if the reports are true then its a strong possibility.

I have other examples of what you call ridiculous theories or what a handful of other posters called conspiracy theories that are now being proved to be correct but I'll let you respond to this first.

I think the differences in our opinions from what I make out from your original post on here is that you are prepared to wait to see the results of the trial and apparently be happy that justice will be done based on those results?

I'm a million miles from there, the trial process and the evidence presented so far or lack of, is a major concern, how can a fair conviction be made when no origianl DNA samples from Hannah existto recheck. The samples were collected by the RTP, analysed and tested by the RTP and reports delivered by the RTP. Can you trust that? Sorry I cant.

I've seen the photos.

Two things are clear.....

1. Hannah wasn't killed with a hoe.

2. The murders were committed separately....it wasn't the same person who killed David....the level of ferocity used in Hannah's murder was barbaric.

someone please explain to me what "possible shrapnel wounds" are, in my expert opinion this is complete hogwash and on top of that nobody is going to fire a gun on a quiet beach at 2am without everyone on the Island hearing it

and to you smokie36 - what are you smoking ? why have you concluded she could not have been murdered with a Hoe, I honestly can't figure that out especially from a photo

If 2 people were brutally killed, one of them raped, easily within earshot of bungalows where other people were living, it is quite possible that a gun could be used "without everyone on the island hearing it", especially if some form of silencer was used (e.g. a rolled up towel, which could have been taken away from the scene by the murderers/rapists)

I am still amazed that this terrible thing happened and NOBODY knows anything? And "there's no mafia on Koh Tao". This in spite of numerous people saying that there is, and that "everybody on the island knows who did it" (That is definitely an exaggeration of the facts - probably the only time that I would tend to agree with JD, JohninThailand, AleG et al) If "everybody" knew, then all it would take would be for the Police to interview ONE person to find out who the perpetrators were. However, I do believe that the Police are shielding some one, and that there are people on the island who know the true facts, and are saying nothing, either from fear, or because they themselves are in some way "connected". or that they in fact are responsible.

Edited July 13, 2015 by sambum

[phuketandsee]

Are there any court proceedings today (Mon 13 July) or is the case now on hold waiting for the retesting and results of the DNA stuff?

Pay attention, or scroll back a bit.

[stickylies]

Ganged raped by at least 3 men, then battered beyond recognition...I would not call that a usual murder in any country.

How sick it may be, it's not that rare/uncommon. Many rapists are extremely violent.

Some nutter raped and brutally killed his own mother in the UK recently. Some people...