Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[Alwyn]

While the matching of DNA samples is important, I suspect that the overriding importance of a likely contamination of the crime scene and problems in the chain of custody of any collected physical evidence will emerge as the major issues.

In a normal country, I'd agree

[thailandchilli]

Ganged raped by at least 3 men, then battered beyond recognition...I would not call that a usual murder in any country.

How sick it may be, it's not that rare/uncommon. Many rapists are extremely violent.

Some nutter raped and brutally killed his own mother in the UK recently. Some people...

Please name some other cases where 2 young tourists have been murdered with one raped in such a horrific way if you say its not uncommon, a few examples please

[Oziex1]

What are the consequences of a police case failing in court after the chief investigator was hand picked by the PM then congratulated for an excellent and successful conclusion to the investigation.

[Rykbanlor]

Ganged raped by at least 3 men, then battered beyond recognition...I would not call that a usual murder in any country.

How sick it may be, it's not that rare/uncommon. Many rapists are extremely violent.

Some nutter raped and brutally killed his own mother in the UK recently. Some people...

Please name some other cases where 2 young tourists have been murdered with one raped in such a horrific way if you say its not uncommon, a few examples please

Maybe a better phrase might be - it's not unheard of. Horrible things do happen like this, thankfully not with too much frequency save war zones, civil wars etc.

However you look at it it's twisted.

[SOUTHERNSTAR]

GIGO comes to mind: Garbage In, Garbage Out. Seems all evidence has been so jumbled up, tampered, fabricated that would be impossible to make case against anyone. IATA records only as good as what goes in from terminal, and if kid flew to BKK could have just put any name on there, and what check in counter person going to question that.

I have some faith in Pornthip. Recall she stood up to get DNA samples from Tsunami victims in spite of harassment by authorities. But she can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

Granted it's easy to use a fake name to take a domestic flight, if the person is Thai - but there should also be security video footage of every flight - of people entering and leaving the plane. That can't be faked. As for GIGO, I agree, and that's why the Brit victims' families were fooled by Brit experts who were so easily fooled by Thai officials. I have faith in Pontip considering she's probably the best forensic expert available in Thailand. I like how she's not afraid to go against the grain with Thai officialdom, though she is working for the gov't and she did make a dumb call on the bomb detectors.

I hope forensic samples aren't compromised or lost - for the slight chance that the real culprits might someday be hauled in to court. The evidence will then be needed - albeit the odds of that happening are remote.

For those who don't undrstand the Thainess of this case look at the following with English subtitles available.

That video should be required watching for everyone involved with or interested in the case - particularly Thai and British officials. Sonthi's stock just went up in my estimation.

If the trial does collapse, do we think anybody senior in the police force or government will resign?

Lets hope that the poor Burmese guys are properly compensated for having to go through this terrible ordeal.

Resignation would be too cushy. They should be subject to stern disciplinary inquiries. If it it'shown: the people who are entrusted to protect the public are actually intentionally endangering the public (by enabling killers to roam free), there should be no mercy. This being Thailand, the worst that could happen is assignment to an inactive post, with full pay and benefits. - except for those quick enough to empty their bank accounts and take the first jet to a farang country to live high on the hog.

I agree with most of your comment, only disagree on Pornthip. She maybe the best forensic expert in Thailand, but she sold her soul with the BT 2000 test. After the fake devices failed a test the army claimed that the operator was a little sick which caused his magnetic field to be weak and thus the BT 2000 didn't work. When the press asked her about the armys claim (about the magnetic field) she said that there are certain things science cant explain, thus she backed the army up. At that point I lost my respect for her. Her payback was her reappointment after the coup, which was dead give away of her relationship with the army.

[loonodingle]

That video should be required watching for everyone involved with or interested in the case - particularly Thai and British officials. Sonthi's stock just went up in my estimation.

Resignation would be too cushy. They should be subject to stern disciplinary inquiries. If it it'shown: the people who are entrusted to protect the public are actually intentionally endangering the public (by enabling killers to roam free), there should be no mercy. This being Thailand, the worst that could happen is assignment to an inactive post, with full pay and benefits. - except for those quick enough to empty their bank accounts and take the first jet to a farang country to live high on the hog.I agree with most of your comment, only disagree on Pornthip. She maybe the best forensic expert in Thailand, but she sold her soul with the BT 2000 test. After the fake devices failed a test the army claimed that the operator was a little sick which caused his magnetic field to be weak and thus the BT 2000 didn't work. When the press asked her about the armys claim (about the magnetic field) she said that there are certain things science cant explain, thus she backed the army up. At that point I lost my respect for her. Her payback was her reappointment after the coup, which was dead give away of her relationship with the army.

She doesn't have to be a Messiah to do her job and who hasn't made a mistake in theirs. That doesn't write her off in every other aspect of her working life and its rather foolish perhaps to make those judgements.

Dozens of countrys fell for the bomb finders.

[bamukloy]

Are they reporting this in the local news? Ive not seen it on any nightly news on tv. I wonder why? This is a big case and worthy of coverage. Is it because it was only two farang killed and a couple of lowly burmese guys accused? Or are they under instructions not to make any mention of it?

I have noticed the same as you, its not on the news.

Dunno, but my guess it is not considered very news worthy.

Farang are taken out relatively frequently in LoS. And when kon Pama is involved, who cares.

My Guess: The military has asked to mute the case to prevent Thais fro becoming Unhappy again, after-all its tarnishing their Lilly white culture and police force

The average Thai does not care a damn about this case and many will not even have heard of it s existence. They just happily carry on eating Somtam and watching soap operas, nothing else really matters.

If most farangs don't care -- excepting maybe those on here -- then why should the average Thai care? Koh Tao Pub Crawl photo 10 JUL 2015 --

https://www.facebook.com/195259667186954/photos/pb.195259667186954.-2207520000.1436775105./916317651747815/?type=1&theater

https://scontent-kul1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/11218864_916317911747789_1136168655140147748_n.jpg?oh=25dc7afc7edb6ed048d1a8c28dc5d95b&oe=5623196D

what a bunch of grubs..id better not comment further

[Incobart]

everything falls or stands with 100 % proof of DNA.

If thai police and government are sure they are correct, why not let it retested ? dna of the sperm must clear everything...

why keep it unclear why create doubts

[sambum]

 

The local media aren't touching it as it is now showing thailand in a bad light. A very bad light. It has become a sensitive topic now with evidence of police incompitance, sinister forces and the realisation that the B2 are innocent and the real murderers are still at large. It is potentially very embarrassing for some extremely powerful people who endorsed the polices work initially and in fact rewarded it.

This story is not bringing hapiness back to the people.

Remember the story of the chinese tourist killed at chiang mai zoo zip lining recently was withheld a few days because a certain someone was visiting chiang mai at the time and they didnt want to spoil his "bringing happiness" visit with bad news.....

I think they are spending this time furiously thinking of ways to finish this without important people losing face, certain people not being implicated (after all, thats been paid for already) and have the simplest excuse to declare a mistrail and a low ranking guy take the fall for screwing up.

Or they might just rush through a guilty verdict, its only 3 judges decision after all, show the world a big middle finger, execute them on the quiet or lock them up forever and just carry on as normal. That wouldnt surprise me one bit unfortunately.

 

"mistrail"? Don't you start! It's "mistrial", and no, I'm not an English teacher, and yes, I echo your sentiments!

[phuketandsee]

Especially for scorecard:

"Next hearing Koh Tao murder case 22-24 July at Koh Samui court. Witnesses will be mainly police crime scene/police forensics officials" via Andy H

[kiwikeith]

Was this ever investigated? I doubt it. Happened on the same stretch of beach the night before the murders

Thai motorbike gang mugged British women night before backpacker couple were murdered on Koh Tao island

A pair of British women were reportedly mugged by a Thai motorbike gang on the same beach where two backpackers were brutally murdered and just one night before the killings took place, it was claimed on Sunday.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11111774/Thai-motorbike-gang-mugged-British-women-night-before-backpacker-couple-were-murdered-on-Koh-Tao-island.html

Never read this story before, however if it is true and including the lost DNA, the Sacked Lawywer who witnessed the boys injuries then the Telegraph , the BBC and all media should be calling for the case to be thrown out, this is a disgrace and the biggest shameful act ever wittnessed by the world..

The more this goes on the bigger the shame will be.

It will expose that coruption goes way beyond the police and to the heart of the justice system.

Governments can not be trusted to stick up for their citizens or the media.

[crazydrummerpauly]

I'm confused - the heading is the 'The Trial is About to Collapse' , and then at the end of the piece it says : 'The trial is due to last until September, with a verdict expected in October.' ???

[partington]

That video should be required watching for everyone involved with or interested in the case - particularly Thai and British officials. Sonthi's stock just went up in my estimation.

Resignation would be too cushy. They should be subject to stern disciplinary inquiries. If it it'shown: the people who are entrusted to protect the public are actually intentionally endangering the public (by enabling killers to roam free), there should be no mercy. This being Thailand, the worst that could happen is assignment to an inactive post, with full pay and benefits. - except for those quick enough to empty their bank accounts and take the first jet to a farang country to live high on the hog.I agree with most of your comment, only disagree on Pornthip. She maybe the best forensic expert in Thailand, but she sold her soul with the BT 2000 test. After the fake devices failed a test the army claimed that the operator was a little sick which caused his magnetic field to be weak and thus the BT 2000 didn't work. When the press asked her about the armys claim (about the magnetic field) she said that there are certain things science cant explain, thus she backed the army up. At that point I lost my respect for her. Her payback was her reappointment after the coup, which was dead give away of her relationship with the army.

She doesn't have to be a Messiah to do her job and who hasn't made a mistake in theirs. That doesn't write her off in every other aspect of her working life and its rather foolish perhaps to make those judgements.

Dozens of countrys fell for the bomb finders.

It isn't "a mistake": a mistake is something you do unintentionally and regret.

She still maintains this nonsense is true, and she has said that in this case she does not believe that science can explain how these things work.

This is completely and permanently compromising for someone whose entire job is based on the premise that you must trust scientific evidence to prove your claims.

It is not claiming messianic status to insist that someone who represents science should not say they do not trust science!

The fact that she still maintains that in the case of these detectors that they work despite the fact that science cannot prove they work disqualifies her from being a scientific expert. The fact that she made these statements to support the army's ridiculous claims shows that she can be influenced by political allegiances to deny the importance of scientific evidence.

Would you want someone who will readily deny the necessity for scientific evidence to prove a case to be an expert scientific witness? What stops her from saying in this or any other trial that science cannot explain it but guilt is obvious?

[docshock13]

I see that a shopping cart has been seen in the court room (prosecution side of the fence) does any one know where

(perhaps BIG C or possibly TESCO-LOTUS) the Police/prosecution may have gone shopping for their evidence????

And shouldn't the prosecutor's office be charged with theft for absconding with said trolley from the parking lot?

[loonodingle]

That video should be required watching for everyone involved with or interested in the case - particularly Thai and British officials. Sonthi's stock just went up in my estimation.

Resignation would be too cushy. They should be subject to stern disciplinary inquiries. If it it'shown: the people who are entrusted to protect the public are actually intentionally endangering the public (by enabling killers to roam free), there should be no mercy. This being Thailand, the worst that could happen is assignment to an inactive post, with full pay and benefits. - except for those quick enough to empty their bank accounts and take the first jet to a farang country to live high on the hog.I agree with most of your comment, only disagree on Pornthip. She maybe the best forensic expert in Thailand, but she sold her soul with the BT 2000 test. After the fake devices failed a test the army claimed that the operator was a little sick which caused his magnetic field to be weak and thus the BT 2000 didn't work. When the press asked her about the armys claim (about the magnetic field) she said that there are certain things science cant explain, thus she backed the army up. At that point I lost my respect for her. Her payback was her reappointment after the coup, which was dead give away of her relationship with the army.

She doesn't have to be a Messiah to do her job and who hasn't made a mistake in theirs. That doesn't write her off in every other aspect of her working life and its rather foolish perhaps to make those judgements.

Dozens of countrys fell for the bomb finders.

It isn't "a mistake": a mistake is something you do unintentionally and regret.

She still maintains this nonsense is true, and she has said that in this case she does not believe that science can explain how these things work.

This is completely and permanently compromising for someone whose entire job is based on the premise that you must trust scientific evidence to prove your claims.

It is not claiming messianic status to insist that someone who represents science should not say they do not trust science!

The fact that she still maintains that in the case of these detectors that they work despite the fact that science cannot prove they work disqualifies her from being a scientific expert. The fact that she made these statements to support the army's ridiculous claims shows that she can be influenced by political allegiances to deny the importance of scientific evidence.

Would you want someone who will readily deny the necessity for scientific evidence to prove a case to be an expert scientific witness? What stops her from saying in this or any other trial that science cannot explain it but guilt is obvious?

Why don't you just forget her and wait for the trial to reveal shrapnel in the victim and then try to explain the Hoe was the cause of death.

There's a fat file from the UK autopsy. And they can afford to print the pictures as well as, X ray the victims for fractures and all the other things that get left when you shoot someone . Its a very strong possibility.

You just want to hope one of your loved ones doesn't end with the brains splattered across a beach in Thailand or you will know how the parents feel.

[brewsterbudgen]

If most farangs don't care -- excepting maybe those on here -- then why should the average Thai care? Koh Tao Pub Crawl photo 10 JUL 2015 --

https://www.facebook.com/195259667186954/photos/pb.195259667186954.-2207520000.1436775105./916317651747815/?type=1&theater

https://scontent-kul1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/11218864_916317911747789_1136168655140147748_n.jpg?oh=25dc7afc7edb6ed048d1a8c28dc5d95b&oe=5623196D

Perhaps we should be asking why so many on this Forum seem to care so much about this case, to the extent that there are pages and pages

of, sometimes salacious, detail and pointless speculation?

It's a horrible murder and there has been plenty of typical mishandling, cock-ups and potential corruption or malpractice, but that's hardly

unusual in this part of the world. Is it just because the victims were British and attractive?

Besides all those hollow posts of official RTP story supporters (shills), this - by far - is one of the dumbest posts I ever read in any of the Koh Tao double murder threads...

So why do you think it has generated so much interest and speculation then?

[sambum]

In reply to SOUTHERNSTAR Post #1782:-

"I agree with most of your comment, only disagree on Pornthip. She maybe the best forensic expert in Thailand, but she sold her soul with the BT 2000 test. After the fake devices failed a test the army claimed that the operator was a little sick which caused his magnetic field to be weak and thus the BT 2000 didn't work. When the press asked her about the armys claim (about the magnetic field) she said that there are certain things science cant explain, thus she backed the army up. At that point I lost my respect for her. Her payback was her reappointment after the coup, which was dead give away of her relationship with the army."

I made this point in an earlier post on this thread. I would have thought that "independent testing" would mean testing carried out in another country by somebody not allied or in league with this country's Police Force or Government in any way. Otherwise, in my opinion, it is not "independent testing".

[JLCrab]

The headman connections are already well known and easy to verify! His power is therefore not limited to "his" island.

Would be so nice if the press would publish something about that! They are not forced to stick to suspects and it would make a great story...

There are single hotels on Koh Samui that are worth more than his entire KT land holdings. He may run Koh Tao like a private fiefdom but I've seen no indication, especially with the first week's trial proceedings, that he has any real power once off the island, well known as you say are his connections.

Please name one.

Four Seasons, Conrad, Le Meridien, InterContinental, Anantara, ...

[KamalaRider]

Sean's an ok musician and songwriter. Tho he could enunciate better. Perhaps it's the Kurt Cobain influence of slurring words.

I was trying to gauge whether the song was perhaps a commentary on the Ko Tao crime, but couldn't decipher his brand of English.

Hello Boomerangutang,

But this song righter is not the Sean from the Ko Tao murders, is he?

Did you listen to all the songs? The third song!!! I am taken back.

I hope this song righter is not the Sean from Ko Tao.

He is the song writer, it is the very same person and what I understood, the songs aren't connected to the events in Koh Tao but from events in scotland.

Bu what do I know, I have serious problem hearing what he's singing about.

[cowboy country]

Especially for scorecard:

"Next hearing Koh Tao murder case 22-24 July at Koh Samui court. Witnesses will be mainly police crime scene/police forensics officials" via Andy H

Does that mean Mon will be there??? He was a crime scene official...Now there's a witness I'd like to see cross examined!!!

and that son of his....

[docshock13]

http://blogs.channel4.com/world-news-blog/koh-tao-thailand-murder-death-foreigners-28701/28701

While the article itself is not very revealing (unless one just started following this case), the comments by Anonymous and FL331 are interesting. Note, comments were posted just earlier this year.

[Travelman868]

I have not seen any discussion of the testimony of Dr. Chasit Yoohad as reported in http://bigstory.ap.org/urn:publicid:ap.org:eab0f9d26be242048e4dae7a83a9334e.

A second witness, Dr. Chasit Yoohad, gave testimony about his examination of the victims' bodies. He said he also performed a medical checkup of the two accused, and found them in good health. He said he asked through a translator if they had committed the crime, and they replied that they had.

This strikes me as strange. Why would the doctor be interrogating the Burmese? Of course, if the doctor was part of a frame up, the testimony is extremely convenient. It also does not state when this examination of the Burmese took place. I assume the translator was the pancake seller who has been accused of participating in the torture of the two accused. Even if the doctor's interrogation was carried out fairly, the two Burmese kids would probably not have dared risk renewed torture by claiming innocence. Further, how does anyone know that questions and answers from the pancake seller were correct translations?

Will the "translator" give evidence at the trial? Should this claim of the Burmese admission of guilt be regarded as hearsay if he does not?

Do the RTP not have recording equipment ?

[Rykbanlor]

Especially for scorecard:

"Next hearing Koh Tao murder case 22-24 July at Koh Samui court. Witnesses will be mainly police crime scene/police forensics officials" via Andy H

Does that mean Mon will be there??? He was a crime scene official...Now there's a witness I'd like to see cross examined!!!

and that son of his....

That nephew of his.

[Rykbanlor]

http://blogs.channel4.com/world-news-blog/koh-tao-thailand-murder-death-foreigners-28701/28701

While the article itself is not very revealing (unless one just started following this case), the comments by Anonymous and FL331 are interesting. Note, comments were posted just earlier this year.

Indeed, if only anonymous had been more specific on the attack, might have been very telling.

[user82374298374]

It's obvious that the 'suspects' will end up 'committing suicide out of remorse' as soon as it can be arranged without significant fear of detection, irrespective of verdicts, evidence, testimony, or anything else. This will be said to be 'proof' of their 'guilt'.

Case closed!

[docshock13]

http://blogs.channel4.com/world-news-blog/koh-tao-thailand-murder-death-foreigners-28701/28701

While the article itself is not very revealing (unless one just started following this case), the comments by Anonymous and FL331 are interesting. Note, comments were posted just earlier this year.

Indeed, if only anonymous had been more specific on the attack, might have been very telling.

Yes. And why is it that long-term residents of KT (both past and present) have made comments to the effect of "how things work" down there but are sparse on details and/or have not come forward?

[bunglebag]

David's Missing Mobile Phone Explained.

Almost from day one there has been confusion about the missing Mobile Phone. At first it was reported by the media that it was Hannah's Mobile Phone, which it was not. I really don't know why it was reported this way by the person in charge. Was he misinformed? Was it media reported incorrectly? Was it lost in the translation? Was it just a mistake he made? But either way he had no reason to lie as they did have a missing Mobile Phone in their possession at that time, which is stated to belong to David Miller.

As reported by the media, on October 7th, or thereabouts, a Senior Police Official was on the evening news to explain exactly how they found David Miller's Mobile Phone. He said they knew quickly it was missing from the body from information gained by David's Friends and Relatives. (Which may be a very good indication he did not lose it earlier, because if he did he did not tell any of his friends who police contacted). But at that time this was not reported to the press.

Later, after the two suspects were arrested and had confessed to this crime, the police asked them about David Miller's Mobile Phone. One of the suspects (not named) said he left it with a friend. When the police later questioned that friend, he led them to the Mobile Phone. The friend said he had grave doubts about this Mobile Phone, and where it really came from, so he threw it away behind his living quarters.

If this is true then I am pretty sure it will all come out in court as this is damning evidence. Especially if this witness is their friend. We will just have to wait and see.

This is your BIG shocker?

Who was the senior police office mentioned on 7th October because a week earlier (2 weeks after the murders) this was said by General Kiattipong Kaosam-ang:

"There is no doubt the murder of Miss Witheridge was sexually motivated because none of her belongings or those of the English man were missing,"

and yet your man says they knew quickly that phone was missing.

And why would someone who thought a phone was dodgy only get rid of it behind their house. iffy

[bunglebag]

At first I read that there was DNA evidence inside her body. Now I read that the evidence was in a condom.

Forgive me, but ...was the condom in her body or was that in addition to the DNA in her body? Two samples or one? Either way, I can't see why they would be cautious of leaving DNA and then on the other hand be so reckless about it to either leave it behind in her or allow another to not use one.

How was far the condom from the scene? Did it have Hannah's DNA on it too? Which sample was tested against the headmans son? Both or just one?

My gut feeling is probably the same as most, it was the headmans son and friends and they have cleared him using one of the DNA samples his friend left behind.

Edited to be more clear.

If I remember reports correctly there was no dna evidence in the condom and a spot of Hannah's blood on the outside. With regards to Hannah there were 2 different specimens internally and a third different one externally (as stated by police / forensics in a press conference conducted in Thai last year). That's a total of 3 by the way for starters, not 2.

Yes the report of the 3rd dna on Hannahs breast , now that report is no longer to be found

However the Condom , blood or dna , I have seen a photo of a condom with a speck of blood present , but it is the terminology used that fascinates me

Blood or dna being present has 2 different meanings, now if blood of a person is found then it is usually described as person A blood was found

If dna is present this would signify cells or tissue

It amazes me how many times this point about 3 samples of DNA is immediately construde to be from 3 people. The samples were taken from 3 areas of her body the results showed DNA from 2 people. Clear now?

Maybe you're amazed because you are mistaken?

They said 3 DIFFERENT people's DNA were found. Why would their theory have been that a third person was 'watching' if that sample had been the same as one of the other 2?

[Rykbanlor]

http://blogs.channel4.com/world-news-blog/koh-tao-thailand-murder-death-foreigners-28701/28701

While the article itself is not very revealing (unless one just started following this case), the comments by Anonymous and FL331 are interesting. Note, comments were posted just earlier this year.

Indeed, if only anonymous had been more specific on the attack, might have been very telling.

Yes. And why is it that long-term residents of KT (both past and present) have made comments to the effect of "how things work" down there but are sparse on details and/or have not come forward?

I can certainly understand why present residents might be a little unwilling to shoot their mouths off readily. And I would assume that past residents are scattered far and wide and have nothing to add? It is an enigma for sure.

[bamukloy]

This whole thing is a farce. It is obvious that much effort is put into the coverup. it shows connections with police, mafia and even politicians.

One needs to ask , what kind of country is this. How low can they go to pin a death sentence on innocent people to cover their trail.

Foreigners should let their voices heard all over the world. let their media know and let this destination be exposed for what it is. if we foreigners sit idle and continue to pump billions into this economy and fatten these criminals , then wee too have to share a guilty conscience.

Tourist need to know what the corruption and justice system here is like before they spend their hard earned cash. we should never , never help crime to flourish.

100% agree with you Waden. Having lived here and in other "developing" countries with similar levels of corruption and accepted it as part of life there, this case has really revealed how despicable the situation is here from top to bottom and is causing me to seriously re-evaluate my stay.

I am comforted though by the fact maybe, just maybe, all the international attention could bring the beginnings of change. That is why we must keep attention focused and give Andy all the help we can. Maybe that will also be a very small consolation for the tragic loss of 2 young lives although it will likely give scant comfort to the families.

I would wager the time needed to effect change will be a lot longer than most of our periods of stay here.

I guess its a matter of how much you allow things that you cant control to negatively affect your time here.

Seeing that the Thai gov. seems to prefer tourists that spend and leave quickly, this is the very group that will react to this ugliness.

Those deciding to come here, or those already here and considering a longer stay have easy freedom to boycott Thailand.

Excluding Brits, if one didnt read these pages you'd probably never even be aware of the case.

Ignorance is bliss so they say.

In my case i notice i have been a lot happier here when not keeping up on the news and negativity of social media such as ThaiVisa.

Admittedly its boredom for me. I suspect there maybe others the same.

Consider the ugly feelings this case brings, add condo/appartment managers trying to take the mickey out of you, Thai gf who thinks your a walking ATM etc etc

It could all be so much better, but through greed and arrogance this Thainess seems to bite itself on the a$$ time after time.

Still, they will keep coming, you know they will.

I would'nt half be suprised if there is record tourist numbers next year.

Another load of cattle to be used and abused and then left to wander, disenchanted, to greener pastures...