A Clearer Explanation Of New Visa Regulations

[SabahCafeandCinima]

Sabah Cafe & Cinema had a semi formal visit from Immigration Police Major Suppachai Paladech, Inspector of the Immigration Detention Centre and Secretary to the Commissioner of Immigration. Technically the second in command at Immigration. The intended purpose of the visit was to clear up some rumors and ally fears that many long term 'tourist' are having regarding the implementation of updated immigration regulations on the 1st October 2006.

A basic transcript will be available at a page on khaosanroad.com.

Front page, scroll down to New Visa Regulations Become Clearer and advance to the link at the bottom of the article.

I'm not sure if posting a link breaks forum rules, so I won't post it.

Video of the question and answer may come at a later date

It should answer some of the key questions and clear some of the misunderstandings at the moment.

[Firefan]

Thanks. De facto the number 2 in emmigration answering questions.

Main confirmation: they will count DAYS not STAMPS.

Other: one can change to non-o/non-b even with visa-free stamp only(if 21 days left).

Airlines: yeah trouble....

Tourist visas: no stricter guidelines have been send to embassies/consulates. Back to back tourist visas will NOT be a problem (main reason is the screening they can do there).

There is other interesting stuff too to read there.

Cheers!

Edited September 18, 2006 by Firefan

[taxexile]

not sure what 'there is and never was' actually means.

all in all it looks like there will be chaos at the arrivals desks and at suanphluu for a while , otherwise not too much changes as far as people having to leave the country.

the work permit issue is something completely different.

Admin edit:

Quotation removed

Edited September 18, 2006 by george

[A_Traveller]

Thanks for this, in the situation sure both sides of the equation would not mind cross posting text etc., but it's not my board.

If the data from the Major is confirmed then this would seem to be good news, all in all.

1. Days nor stamps and seems to acknowledge that this is going to be difficult to do.

2. Back to back tourist visas are OK, but not visa waivers. The aim is more to get people in the country "on the books"

3. The 90 day period is as much to give people an opportunity to 'get legal' from a visa point of view.

4. O & A's will be available in country but the applicant must have 21 days minimum left on their tourist visa to do this. {I don't think this is new per se, but good to have it stated}.

5. Long term {1 year +} aim is to go to a system as in the US where data is sent by airlines on passenger manifest prior to departure. {Hm.. that'll be tricky at best}

6. No orders sent to consulates and embassies telling them to be more strigent, but he notes that IPB does not have responsibility for them, so there could be a disconnect.

Regards

PS I'll be pleased to be wrong about stamps not days but processing same is going to be problematic, as the Major seems to confirm.

"There is and never was" in my view means that any visa issued is a judgement call made by the issuer. No foreigner has a 'right' to a visa to enter Thailand.

/edit add above sentence//

Edited September 18, 2006 by A_Traveller

[Thaiquila]

Oh, the airlines are gonna love this! How are airlines supposed to know whether to board or not?

[LivinLOS]

Very interesting but opens as many questions as it answers..

For example

Question: This is going to effect the airlines. How is Immigration going to handle this? How does an airline know when a passenger comes to their stamp quota? The airline is responsible for their passenger?

Police Major Suppachai: Your question is a very good question. OK we know that from the first of October it counts from 90 days and the problems will come back. Many people will be stopped at the border, right. So within 90 days we will try to do something. Because we are thinking about the electronic visas. We will use that kind of visa where the airline will have to submit the name of the person to our office before to issue the ticket, similar system to the US. It needs at least 1 year.

I mean what kind of answer is that.. OK so how do you propose to be able to actually accomplish that..

Hmm yeah your right.. Tough.. No idea really.. Maybe something new and electronic.. that sounds smart.. Yeah we will design one of those.. cause after all we still have 90 days to sort it out right.. And yeah like maybe next year we will have some way that all airlines in the world can in real time check this out at check in.. Over some kind of electronic thing..

If thats clarity from the top then I still say counting days cannot be done in real time at airports and immigration.. Enforcement will have to be selective.

[Thaiquila]

The airlines are going to push back. I can see them saying no boarding of people with multiple stamps without a visa.

They cannot be expected to inspect passports to count days and make these arcane rulings.

Great for tourism numbers!

Edited September 18, 2006 by Thaiquila

[taxexile]

it might prove harder to board the aircraft than pass through immigration.

[Ijustwannateach]

Still we won't hear the last version of the story until things start happening on the ground. I really want to see these new "electronic" systems in action nationwide.

[Thaiquila]

So, lets get this clear.

It is now COUNTING DAYS, not STAMPS, correct?

Or is it????

Have heard it is stamps from other authoritative posters on this board.

Edited September 18, 2006 by Thaiquila

[Firefan]

Well - HE says days, but the poor little emmigration girl at the counter have no option but to count stamps only.... This will be interesting...

Not to mention the airlines who have a hard enough time understanding that my extension stamps are a REAL visa(extension).

Cheers!

[jdinasia]

Oh, the airlines are gonna love this! How are airlines supposed to know whether to board or not?

That is next year's problem ...

I can see this changing for the airline's benefit[i/] .... if you have had a visa << a REAL visa>> in the last 12 months that they won't turn people away.

takes the airlines off the hook

Edited September 18, 2006 by jdinasia

[A_Traveller]

So, lets get this clear.

It is now COUNTING DAYS, not STAMPS, correct?

Or is it????

Have heard it is stamps from other authoritative posters on this board.

My understanding as of today having spoken with individuals involved was that it was stamps. Since this discussion referred to here, which took place on Saturday, was not "public" knowledge until now, I couldn't ask the question on the basis of 'I understand that Major x said this...'.

I'll try again tomorrow, though my impression was that this point was no way tied down yet, and that there were meetings, today, discussing this very point.

Regards

edit/ clarity///

Edited September 18, 2006 by A_Traveller

[baboon]

The airlines are going to push back. I can see them saying no boarding of people with multiple stamps without a visa.

They cannot be expected to inspect passports to count days and make these arcane rulings.

Great for tourism numbers!

Indeed. I find it hard to beleive that overworked airline or Thai immigration staff will have the time or inclination to trawl through a great many passports with loads of 30 day stamps with a furious queue building up behind. Especially the airlines. "No paper visa, no flight" I reckon the outcome will be.

[SabahCafeandCinima]

At Fridays press conference at the Imperial Queens Park Hotel Suk soi22, the Commissioner of Thai Immigration Pol. LT Gen Suwat Tumrongsiskul said in front of dozens of press (including cameras from ITV and channel11) that

Days wil be counted, NOT stamps. It was repeated twice

Backed up with an example where a falang asked if you could enter and leave 90 times in 90 days. The answer was. Yes. The question was asked again to clarify rumours and the answer was repeated, only the days count. The person that asked the question is now reading this post over my shoulder confirming what he said.

Edited September 18, 2006 by SabahCafeandCinima

[sjaak327]

The airlines are going to push back. I can see them saying no boarding of people with multiple stamps without a visa.

They cannot be expected to inspect passports to count days and make these arcane rulings.

Great for tourism numbers!

I guess they are not even going to try, they will either require all passengers to have a tourist visa, or they let you sign some kind of waiver, that the airlines are not responsible for transporting the tourist if he is denied entry into the country.

Indeed the interview seems to confirm that they are counting days, not stamps, very good news indeed. Also it seems that they are going to allow someone to get a tourist visa, so year round living in Thailand, seems to be possible on tourist visas.

Thanks to the people at Sabah for this interview, let's hope this is final.

Oh by the way, I really enjoyed the Beer Lao I bought from Sabah a couple of weeks ago

[trajan]

thanks for the clarification SabahCafeandCinima this is a relief for some of my golfing friends from HK

[Firefan]

Sabah; nobody doubts he said it! Just discussing how it will be implemented in praksis... The computers might actually be able to do it but lots of border points have little PC power (or skills) I fear.

Same goes for the airline situation. Easy to say - hard to implement...

Also worrying is all the reports here that nobody at the border crossings have heard about these rules yet...

I am sure we will hear reports of people with 3 stamps (from BEFORE 1st Oct.?) being turned away at the border. Will see if I win that bet Cheers!

[A_Traveller]

At Fridays press conference at the Imperial Queens Park Hotel Suk soi22, the Commissioner of Thai Immigration Pol. LT Gen Suwat Tumrongsiskul said in front of dozens of press (including cameras from ITV and channel11) that

Days wil be counted, NOT stamps. It was repeated twice

Backed up with an example where a falang asked if you could enter and leave 90 times in 90 days. The answer was. Yes The question was asked again to clarify rumours and the answer was repeated, only the days count.

Thanks for this additional post. The problem is clearly that for what ever reason this information is not being filtered through the organisation as a whole. One issue here could be that both individuals you have quoted are part of the Immigration Commission, which sets policy.

It is possible that whilst the policy has been set, the process instructions {or rules of engagement, if you prefer} have not been issued at this time. Therefore, people, whatever their relative positions, will respond on the basis of what is the present legal position, that is 1 day of a visa waiver {30 day stamp} = 30 days, until this is formally amended.

I am at a loss to understand why this information was not part of the press release and if it was, why it has not appeared in the press reports of this.

Again, if it ends up as days, that's good news, but how it works is another question.

Regards and thanks for the original post

[A_Traveller]

As to the airline position, one option may be that upon check-in, the passenger is asked “Have you travelled to Thailand in the last six months?” If the answer is yes, either the check-in staff hand the potential passenger a form which they have to complete doing the day count, or alternatively, the check-in staff simply hand over the standard IATA waiver form {I can't recall the code number for it} which when signed by the passenger absolves the airline of responsibility if the destination refuses entry.

Regards

[SabahCafeandCinima]

On the 15th, about 50 senior immigration officials from all border post got instruction on the new regulations from 9am to 3pm at the same hotel where the press conference of the commissioner occured.

I would assume that they would follow their departments directives.

[Estrada]

So, lets get this clear.

It is now COUNTING DAYS, not STAMPS, correct?

Or is it????

Have heard it is stamps from other authoritative posters on this board.

As I have said previously this is not a new regulation, it has been 90 days total in Thailand in 180 days for 30 day entry without Visa for a few years, all they are doing now is going by the rules instead of Mai Bpen Rai.

For 30 day entry, cross border runners who want to stay here for a long time without a Visa, that equates to 3 stamps = 90 days. A normal Tourist Visa is 60 days extendable to 90 days. The problem seems to have been in bad translation. Immigration are only concerned with farangs with 3 "Consecutive" entry stamps which means that apart from the short hop across the border, they will have been here 90 days continuously. This is not what was intended, they should have got a 60 day tourist visa to stay longer which would give the Thai Immigration a chance to vet the applicants.

For those of us who work abroad on rotation we will have no problem, business as usual, and no expense of the 1 year Visa or reentry permits, as long as we do not exceed 90 days in 180 days.

In fact, the Thais are making it easier for us, as now we can get all get a 30 day tourist visa changed to an "O" or "B" Visa at the Thai Immigration Department instead of having to go to a Thai Embassy abroad. A panic about nothing, unless you are one of those who has exploited the loop hole for a few years.

A German friend of mine has been here 16 years on 30 day entry stamps. He has a medium sized Factory producing high quality Garments for his Fashion Company in Germany. He has not divorced his German Wife, who runs the German end of the Business. He has a Thai Girlfriend as his business partner, they have been together for 15 years, and they have two children born in Thailand. She gets on well with his German Wife!

He goes to Hongkong at least every 30 days on Business, and so does not bother with a Visa. Because he is classed as a "Quality Checker" employed by the German Company as its Bangkok Representative, he does not need a Work permit. Immigration keep offering to give him a 1 year visa but he doesn't like to pay out money when he can get away with the 30 day stamp. They have never been happy with this situation, and I would not be surprised as he was one of the reasons for the clamp down. Now he has to go for a Visa, although he has said that he would rather shut the factory down, put 140 Thais out of work, and return to Germany.

[dog412]

well, i hope the consuls in vientiane and phnom penh change their "tune". why should these employees of the thai government be permitted to "abuse" the "spirit" of the thai immigration regulations. i.e. their self determination of issuance based on previous number of issuance's.

[A_Traveller]

On the 15th, about 50 senior immigration officials from all border post got instruction on the new regulations from 9am to 3pm at the same hotel where the press conference of the commissioner occured.

I would assume that they would follow their departments directives.

Well I wouldn't

Isn't it called Decentralization?

To be serious, if you are at the 'coal face' and some bright spark decides to enforce a rule which may be unenforceable, given current infrastructure limitations {15 out of 55 border posts 'computerised'} or is not supported by a structured process or rules of engagement then it is entirely possible that there's a lot of nodding heads and then a great deal of back room activity.

Regards

PS The meeting on the 15th was about many things not just a few visa changes.

[A_Traveller]

well, i hope the consuls in vientiane and phnom penh change their "tune". why should these employees of the thai government be permitted to "abuse" the "spirit" of the thai immigration regulations. i.e. their self determination of issuance based on previous number of issuance's.

Problem here is that they report to the Foreign Ministry and the Immigration Police Bureau is part of the Ministry of the Interior.

The rules from the Foreign Ministry require a embassy or consul to make a decision based on the information at hand and their experience. This process is monitored in Thailand and locations which have a 'default rate' deemed too high are warned to be more stringent in applying the rules. In other cases as the personnel changes, the office changes, as an example, a local capital changed head of department about 18 months ago and went from being 'customer friendly' to strict overnight.

Such is life as they say.

Regards

[dog412]

well, i hope the consuls in vientiane and phnom penh change their "tune". why should these employees of the thai government be permitted to "abuse" the "spirit" of the thai immigration regulations. i.e. their self determination of issuance based on previous number of issuance's.

Problem here is that they report to the Foreign Ministry and the Immigration Police Bureau is part of the Ministry of the Interior.

The rules from the Foreign Ministry require a embassy or consul to make a decision based on the information at hand and their experience. This process is monitored in Thailand and locations which have a 'default rate' deemed too high are warned to be more stringent in applying the rules. In other cases as the personnel changes, the office changes, as an example, a local capital changed head of department about 18 months ago and went from being 'customer friendly' to strict overnight.

Such is life as they say.

Regards

such is life is correct. hopefully, they will realize that the application process for a visa will give them all the opportunity they desire to enforce the laws that they WANT to enforce. cheers.

[meom]

The airlines are going to push back. I can see them saying no boarding of people with multiple stamps without a visa.

They cannot be expected to inspect passports to count days and make these arcane rulings.

Great for tourism numbers!

I guess they are not even going to try, they will either require all passengers to have a tourist visa, or they let you sign some kind of waiver, that the airlines are not responsible for transporting the tourist if he is denied entry into the country.

Indeed the interview seems to confirm that they are counting days, not stamps, very good news indeed. Also it seems that they are going to allow someone to get a tourist visa, so year round living in Thailand, seems to be possible on tourist visas.

Thanks to the people at Sabah for this interview, let's hope this is final.

Oh by the way, I really enjoyed the Beer Lao I bought from Sabah a couple of weeks ago

It's mentioned before that they could leave the counting of days to the passenger.

On the landing card they can print a space where you have to mention howmany days you've spent in LOS during the last 180 days.

It's then up to the immigration official to believe you or to go through your passport.

Bit similar as the declare - nothing to declare paper that one had to fill out in the past.

[dog412]

I, as an affected person have been following these 1 zillion posts for a week or more.

Oh, my Buddha.

is there any other country in the world who could &lt;deleted&gt; up as badly as this?

The truth is , they really are very unintelligent......

anyhow the farangs will force them to think about it and make it comprehensible after some time.

one does get sick of the TIT excuse for stupidity.

relax a bit , many thais are in SOMEWHAT the same boat as us. NEVER underestimate those that run this country.

[A_Traveller]

I, as an affected person have been following these 1 zillion posts for a week or more.

Oh, my Buddha.

is there any other country in the world who could &lt;deleted&gt; up as badly as this?

The truth is , they really are very unintelligent......

anyhow the farangs will force them to think about it and make it comprehensible after some time.

one does get sick of the TIT excuse for stupidity.

I have to say that is somewhat unfair. The thinking behind the action is logical, get as many people here in the Kingdom registered and onto a suitable checkable visa foundation. The simplest way to do that is to remove the back to back visa waiver. However, everyone is being given up to 90 days to 'legalise' their position. That does not seem unreasonable to me.

I would expect that other visa types will be provided to deal with the < 50 'retirees' in the not too distant future after the position has stabilised.

It is too simplistic to see this as a 'get the foreigner' programme, though I would accept that public relations, ironically, given the country's success at advertising techniques, is not a strong suit for the government.

Regards

PS Understand that you are affected by this, but it does seem as the smoke clears that there are avenues open to you. I do hope you find a suitable one for your situation.

/edit typo & add PS/

Edited September 18, 2006 by A_Traveller

[cclub75]

At Fridays press conference at the Imperial Queens Park Hotel Suk soi22, the Commissioner of Thai Immigration Pol. LT Gen Suwat Tumrongsiskul said in front of dozens of press (including cameras from ITV and channel11) that

Days wil be counted, NOT stamps. It was repeated twice

The whole story is another extreme shame for the thai authorities : just put on a government official website the proper documentation explaining the RULES, for christ sake !

Edited September 18, 2006 by cclub75