Pope asks pardon for church's 'crimes' against indigenous

[webfact]

Pope asks pardon for church's 'crimes' against indigenous
NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press

SANTA CRUZ, Bolivia (AP) — Pope Francis has cast himself as the spiritual and political leader of the world's oppressed with his remarkable mea culpa for the sins and crimes of the Catholic Church against the indigenous peoples during the colonial conquest of the Americas.

He'll have a chance to embellish that reputation Friday when he visits Bolivia's notorious Palmasola prison.

Francis "humbly" begged forgiveness Thursday at a gathering of indigenous leaders in Bolivia in the presence of Bolivia's first-ever indigenous president, Evo Morales, the climactic high of Francis' weeklong South American tour.

In the speech, Francis noted that Latin American church leaders in the past had acknowledged that "grave sins were committed against the native peoples of America in the name of God." St. John Paul II, for his part, apologized to the continent's indigenous for the "pain and suffering" caused during the 500 years of the church's presence in the Americas during a 1992 visit to the Dominican Republic.

But Francis went further, and said he was doing so with "regret."

"I would also say, and here I wish to be quite clear, as was St. John Paul II: I humbly ask forgiveness, not only for the offenses of the church herself, but also for crimes committed against the native peoples during the so-called conquest of America," he said to applause from the crowd.

Then deviating from his prepared script, he added: "I also want for us to remember the thousands and thousands of priests who strongly opposed the logic of the sword with the power of the cross. There was sin, and it was plentiful. But we never apologized, so I now ask for forgiveness. But where there was sin, and there was plenty of sin, there was also an abundant grace increased by the men who defended indigenous peoples."

Francis' apology was met with wild applause from the indigenous and other grass-roots groups gathered for a world summit of popular movements whose fight against injustice and social inequality has been championed by the pope.

"We accept the apologies. What more can we expect from a man like Pope Francis?" said Adolfo Chavez, a leader of a lowlands indigenous group. "It's time to turn the page and pitch in to start anew. We indigenous were never lesser beings."

The apology was significant given the controversy that has erupted in the United States over Francis' planned canonization of the 18th century Spanish priest Junipero Serra, who set up missions across California. Native Americans contend Serra brutally converted indigenous people to Christianity, wiping out villages in the process, and have opposed his canonization. The Vatican insists Serra defended natives from colonial abuses.

Francis' apology was also significant given the controversy that blew up the last time a pope visited the continent. Benedict XVI drew heated criticism when, during a 2007 visit to Brazil, he defended the church's campaign to Christianize indigenous peoples. He said the Indians of Latin America had been "silently longing" to become Christians when Spanish and Portuguese conquerors violently took over their lands.

Amid an outcry from indigenous groups, Benedict subsequently acknowledged that "shadows accompanied the work of evangelizing" the continent and said European colonizers inflicted "sufferings and injustices" on indigenous populations. He didn't apologize, however.

The Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, said that Francis wrote the speech on his own and that the apology for the sins, offenses and crimes of the church was a "particularly important declaration."

Church officials have long insisted Catholic missionaries protected indigenous peoples from the abuses of military colonizers and were often punished by European colonial powers as a result. Francis' own Jesuit order developed missions across the continent, educating the indigenous and turning their communities into organized Christian-Indian societies. The Jesuits were expelled in the 17th century.

Mexican Bishop Raul Vera, who attended Thursday's conference, said the church was essentially a passive participant in allowing natives to become enslaved under the "encomienda" system, in which Spain's king granted land in conquered territories to those who settled there. Indians were allowed to live on the haciendas as long as they worked them.

"It's evident that the church did not defend against it with all its efforts. It allowed it to be imposed," Vera told The Associated Press before the pope's speech.

During the speech, the longest and most important of Francis' weeklong, three-nation South American trip, the pope touched on some of the priorities of his pontificate, a key one being the need to change what he called an unjust global economic system that excludes the poor. He said it should be replaced with a "communitarian economy" involving the "fitting distribution" of the Earth's resources.

"Working for a just distribution of the fruits of the Earth and human labor is not mere philanthropy. It's a moral obligation," he said.

Francis ended the speech with a fierce condemnation of the world's governments for what he said was "cowardice" in defending the planet. Echoing his environmental encyclical of last month, the pope said the Earth "is being pillaged, laid waste and harmed with impunity" while "one international summit after another takes place without any significant result."
___

Associated Press writers Paola Flores, Frank Bajak, Jacobo Garcia and Carlos Valdez contributed to this report.


-- (c) Associated Press 2015-07-10

[Pimay1]

a key one being the need to change what he called an unjust global economic system that excludes the poor. He said it should be replaced with a "communitarian economy" involving the "fitting distribution" of the Earth's resources.

I'm sure he will be at the forefront leading the charge by distributing the multi-billion dollar wealth of the Vatican to the poor.

[ThaiKneeTim]

Another distraction from the current crimes of the Catholic Church in covering up pederasty in the priesthood,wholesale abuses in its orphanages, using inmates as virtual slaves, and doing its damnedest to avoid compensating the victims.

[AYJAYDEE]

money talks, B.S walks, frankie boy

[shirtless]

Hey pope pay them you cheap arse, you make me sick.

[arjunadawn]

...a prospect for the New World Order, Department of Religious Affairs. Now he'll heal the 1,000 year schism and seek very high profile ecumenical dialogue as to be seen doing it!

This pope is not atoning as much as he his building constituency.

[underthebridge]

Words are cheap, give back the loot to back them up.

[Lovekorat]

Is there a more vile and disgusting organisation than the catholic Church .

In fact looking at the world today aren't most of the problems caused by organised 'religions'?

Glad I am not affiliated to any of them

Hey mr pope.....elvis didn't leave your building he was never in it!

Oh and while you're talking about the poor.....are you opening up the vatican vaults to cough up a bit you moronic hypocrite!

[cocopops]

Dear Pope,

Please state unambiguously and with full infallible papal authority, that if any Catholic is in the future faced with deciding between protecting children from sexual or other abuse and protecting the churches reputation, they should choose to protect the children. Emphasize that this is true even if it appears this will damage the churches ability to save souls in the future.

Thanks,

Cocopops.

Edited July 10, 2015 by cocopops

[arjunadawn]

If reparations are a valid argument in the US or elsewhere, it seems the Vatican would be the first place to start, representing the largest source of grievance. Since the Vatican single handily stole more gold from the Americas directly or through its entities, it seems there is a direct line of injury and culpability. Start here, then move to the next continent. When done, atone for rendering women second class citizens on earth and in heaven. (For what is proclaimed on earth is binding in heaven). Its disgusting that in this age of reason someone is according special status or statesman status because they believe they represent a "man in the clouds" (Swami Vivekananda). I do not knock others who believe this, or who assign semi deification to a person, only that such a person should have the station of power influencing the rational tide of history in the modern era.

[Saan]

Is there a more vile and disgusting organisation than the catholic Church .

In fact looking at the world today aren't most of the problems caused by organised 'religions'?

Glad I am not affiliated to any of them

Hey mr pope.....elvis didn't leave your building he was never in it!

Oh and while you're talking about the poor.....are you opening up the vatican vaults to cough up a bit you moronic hypocrite!

So much bigotry and bile aimed at the one church leader who is speaking out against injustice.

I am no fan of organized religion but hope the bigots and this pope's opponents within the Catholic Church don't pull him down before he is able to achieve change.

[arjunadawn]

Is there a more vile and disgusting organisation than the catholic Church .

In fact looking at the world today aren't most of the problems caused by organised 'religions'?

Glad I am not affiliated to any of them

Hey mr pope.....elvis didn't leave your building he was never in it!

Oh and while you're talking about the poor.....are you opening up the vatican vaults to cough up a bit you moronic hypocrite!

So much bigotry and bile aimed at the one church leader who is speaking out against injustice.

I am no fan of organized religion but hope the bigots and this pope's opponents within the Catholic Church don't pull him down before he is able to achieve change.

One hardly has to nail a thesis to a door to indict the church. Why should the burden now shift to the injured? The injuries are numerous, the insults deep, and in a timeless institution why should time absolve the injuries of the church? Why should there be a double standard? The pope is in the America atoning for injuries presently; it is not incumbent on any to accept such an empty apology, evidence of the injuries I refer to. Why would those injured be ostracized into silence, or called bigots, because they detest or hold in contempt that which has caused so much mayhem, murder, misery, misogyny, and incalculable pain to others? The pope is apologizing because the indictment is valid. Therefore, the post above has equal weight in opposition. One validates the other!

Having exhaustively considered the Church's insults over time (and the crusades are not among them) I see no reason to afford this institution cover for status to re enter the political fold of world events overtly. I see no reason they/he should be afforded a voice in the rational world because they believe they/he are defined inspired by a man in the clouds. I see no reason the pope should enter politics under the cover for action that he wants to save the children, for the poor, etc (generally valid charitable aims of the modern church but Marxist stalking horses nonetheless). I see no reason he should wield the power of an ecclesiastical office and act upon the earthly realm without circumspection, satire, parody, and all the other commentary any other statesman is afforded.

Where is the bigotry? Why use such a word? Perhaps the poster was a bit sarcastic but the point is valid- he finds the catholic church, as an organization, disgusting. Why is the pope immune from the political satire that comprises considerable western political discourse? This is evidence of the sacrosanct allowance he is erroneously granted by virtue of.. virtue of what? Sitting on an other worldly throne? How preposterous. Help the poor. Feed them. Talk to your flocks about being involved. Stay the hell out of the controversial political machinations such as a new global order that by design are not being built by collective consent. This is what Luther and others were sick of, the slippery slope abuses of the Church and the general apostasy of a valid Church existing within the confines of a very rich, and very earthly Vatican.

If it walks, speaks, and quacks like a duck, it is a duck! This is a duck!

[JetsetBkk]

Ban all religions.

[ggt]

The problem with churches, synagogues, and temples...is they are filled with converted sinners...who have fallen prey to their own belligerent hypocritical stand that they know better than all people how one should live their lives...

The present day ISIS Islamic terrorists are a fine example...either do an insincere conversion to Islam and become someone's slave...or loose your head...

[notmyself]

[...]

ecumenical

[...]

Previous Pope had already apologized though he did also say that the indigenous population was waiting for the arrival of Jesus.

[thaibeachlovers]

a key one being the need to change what he called an unjust global economic system that excludes the poor. He said it should be replaced with a "communitarian economy" involving the "fitting distribution" of the Earth's resources.

I'm sure he will be at the forefront leading the charge by distributing the multi-billion dollar wealth of the Vatican to the poor.

Never, never, never will the Vatican give up one penny of it's riches. They were fast to cotton onto the fact that the best way to make people give money is by brainwashing them into thinking the Church can save them. If they could sell pardons in advance like they used to they would.

That's the way with all religions involving old men wearing stupid hats.

[thaibeachlovers]

Another distraction from the current crimes of the Catholic Church in covering up pederasty in the priesthood,wholesale abuses in its orphanages, using inmates as virtual slaves, and doing its damnedest to avoid compensating the victims.

and let's not forget the appalling crimes committed by Catholic nuns with the Magdalene laundries.

From Wikipedia

A formal state apology was issued in 2013, and a £50 million compensation scheme for survivors was set up, to which the Catholic Church has refused to contribute

[tartempion]

Who committed more crimes to humanity than the Holy Catholic Church?

Any one?

[Credo]

Who committed more crimes to humanity than the Holy Catholic Church?

Any one?

The Catholic Church has been around for a long, long time. If you compare it to something, find something that has been around for as long as the Church.

[ABCer]

I am not religious. I am not a believer. I do not like Institutionalized Religion. I know enough of History.

I have read all the posts above. And I am disgusted. Not by what is said but by the way it is expressed.

The frothing on the mouth vitriol hatred expressed hysterically using a fishmongers vocabulary (with one exception only).

Shame on you.

As to the many rhetorical questions - here are some answers to ponder over:

1) Christianity is about 2000 years old. Of its three major schools the most morbid, backward and degrading is not Catholicism or Protestantism but Orthodox branch.

Without wishing to go into debates - enough to look at where are the countries embracing this religion - Greece and Russia. Enough said here.

2) The Holy Catholic Church has many sins on its conscience. However it has evolved, it is progressing. It is trying to atone and apologise for its sins and tragic mistakes.

Bad moment to badmouth it for these attempts. It might please you to know that the Orthodox brothers of Catholics are also badmouthing the Pope just like you as we speak.

3) To the 'lovers of comparison' between Catholics and Islamists - Islam in the 1300 years of its existence is responsible for over 100 million lives. True - they are more direct -

it is off with your head or limbs or conversion. Well, let me choose neither of the two. But Eternal Damnation in Hell is at least a delayed sentence and also very questionable.

4) It is absolutely useless to even mention Judaism in this comparison. Reason one - it is only embraced by approximately one in a million of humans.

Reason two - it is a 'closed' religion to any of us. In other words we do not even exist for them. Not only they will never try to convert you, but even if you decide to join - forget it!

The third reason I do not want to explain here as it is offensive to all of us.

5) Unfortunately ban on all Religions is not on unless you are willing to go to bleating in unison "Two legs good, four legs better".

Edited July 11, 2015 by ABCer

[AYJAYDEE]

I am not religious. I am not a believer. I do not like Institutionalized Religion. I know enough of History.

I have read all the posts above. And I am disgusted. Not by what is said but by the way it is expressed.

The frothing on the mouth vitriol hatred expressed hysterically using a fishmongers vocabulary (with one exception only).

Shame on you.

As to the many rhetorical questions - here are some answers to ponder over:

1) Christianity is about 2000 years old. Of its three major schools the most morbid, backward and degrading is not Catholicism or Protestantism but Orthodox branch.

Without wishing to go into debates - enough to look at where are the countries embracing this religion - Greece and Russia. Enough said here.

2) The Holy Catholic Church has many sins on its conscience. However it has evolved, it is progressing. It is trying to atone and apologise for its sins and tragic mistakes.

Bad moment to badmouth it for these attempts. It might please you to know that the Orthodox brothers of Catholics are also badmouthing the Pope just like you as we speak.

3) To the 'lovers of comparison' between Catholics and Islamists - Islam in the 1300 years of its existence is responsible for over 100 million lives. True - they are more direct -

it is off with your head or limbs or conversion. Well, let me choose neither of the two. But Eternal Damnation in Hell is at least a delayed sentence and also very questionable.

4) It is absolutely useless to even mention Judaism in this comparison. Reason one - it is only embraced by approximately one in a million of humans.

Reason two - it is a 'closed' religion to any of us. In other words we do not even exist for them. Not only they will never try to convert you, but even if you decide to join - forget it!

The third reason I do not want to explain here as it is offensive to all of us.

5) Unfortunately ban on all Religions is not on unless you are willing to go to bleating in unison "Two legs good, four legs better".

europes religious wars between christian factions were every bit as murderous. and you can convert to judaism any time you like

[notmyself]

Who committed more crimes to humanity than the Holy Catholic Church?

Any one?

The Christian Church would be top o' the heap.

[ABCer]

AYJAYDEE and notmyself - go back to home work.

Very poor knowledge of the subject.

As for myself - as mentioned - no vested interests. I am not going into debates on religious matters.

Let me point out a few more things I have missed in my yesterday's post.

1) people here forget the "positive" aspects of any Religion - great impact on Culture. Neither Architecture, nor Painting or Music would be the same without Rome.

Forgetting Cultural aspect is not surprising given the language they use here.

2) whether they are right or wrong - there is about 900 million Catholics. Why insult the lot? Or are you encouraged by the fact that non of you miserable sods will get blown up to pieces?

I think it is not nice and not wise.

Finally, you didn't answer my direct accusation. I repeat it again:

I was and still am disgusted not so much by most of the posts content but by the language they used.

Any objections to this?

[thaibeachlovers]

Who committed more crimes to humanity than the Holy Catholic Church?

Any one?

I don't know about "more", but Oliver Cromwell had a pretty good go and he was a protestant.

[craigt3365]

I think it was near 8 million died mining silver in Potosi in Bolivia, many for the Spanish. I was there about 10 years ago.

[notmyself]

AYJAYDEE and notmyself - go back to home work.

Very poor knowledge of the subject.

As for myself - as mentioned - no vested interests. I am not going into debates on religious matters.

Cool.

Let me point out a few more things I have missed in my yesterday's post.

1) people here forget the "positive" aspects of any Religion - great impact on Culture. Neither Architecture, nor Painting or Music would be the same without Rome.

So much wrong with this so I'll just take one tangent if I may. In order to say 'great impact on culture' in a positive sense you need to provide a situation, near identical, to compare it with. I can tell you right now that you cannot come up with such a thing.

2) whether they are right or wrong - there is about 900 million Catholics. Why insult the lot? Or are you encouraged by the fact that non of you miserable sods will get blown up to pieces?

Hmmm. Argument from numbers or that the members of the CC is some 600 million higher? Both are valid... argument from numbers I think.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

"I think it is not nice and not wise."

Appeal to emotion or argumentum ad passiones is a logical fallacy characterized by the manipulation of the recipient's emotions in order to win an argument, especially in the absence of factual evidence.[1] This kind of appeal to emotion is a type of red herring and encompasses several logical fallacies, including appeal to consequences, appeal to fear, appeal to flattery, appeal to pity, appeal to ridicule, appeal to spite, and wishful thinking.

Instead of facts, persuasive language is used to develop the foundation of an appeal to emotion-based argument. Thus, the validity of the premises that establish such an argument does not prove to be verifiable.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion

[thaibeachlovers]

I think it was near 8 million died mining silver in Potosi in Bolivia, many for the Spanish. I was there about 10 years ago.

Not sure if it was Bolivia ( a google search would sort it if interested ), but the Spanish originally stopped the natives using the coca leaf ( cocaine plant ) till they found they wouldn't work in the mines without it. By allowing them to use it they were able to get much more productivity till they died of overwork and starvation.

[willyumiii]

The Catholic church is obscenely wealthy from exploiting poor and foolish people all over the globe..and they are tax exempt!

They should be held responsible and forced to pay retribution to all they have harmed.

But if I recall my childhood indoctrination to Catholicism, you can be wrong and evil for your entire life, but if you confess and say you are sorry before you die, all is forgiven...

Good luck with that!

An apoligy just does not cut it here Pope..pay up!

[craigt3365]

After touring the Vatican, my wife's comment was "it's good to be the Pope"!

[arjunadawn]

Who committed more crimes to humanity than the Holy Catholic Church?

Any one?

Islam. But your general point is valid- they are equally repugnant.