Academic blames military for weakening democracy

[Lite Beer]

Academic blames military for weakening democracy
KASAMAKORN CHANWANPEN
THE SUNDAY NATION

BANGKOK: -- THE MILITARY is the primary cause of the retreat of democracy in Thailand and Southeast Asia, and the extensive power obtained by coup-makers encourages more putsches in the future, a Thai studies scholar says.

Tyrell Haberkorn from Australian National University said granting amnesty to those launching military coups and passing laws like Article 44 of the provisional charter granting the junta leader absolute power could lead to more coups.

Haberkorn stressed the repercussions from creating a history of coups. "Each time the military forgives themselves for seizing power, detaining people, and torturing people, it makes it easier to do it [the coup] the next time," she said.

The Thai studies scholar was speaking at an international forum entitled "Democracy Drawbacks in Southeast Asia" organised by the Institute of Human Rights and Peace Studies at Mahidol University on Friday.

The drawbacks of democracy in the region were caused by the military, she said. "More specifically, when the military intervenes in politics."

Haberkorn said this included the junta passing orders that were treated as law and adjudicating civilian cases within the military judicial system.

"In my view, this series of actions could never be a path towards democracy, no matter what the generals in charge may say. These are actions that are both individually and in sum detrimental to the exercise and promotion of human rights."

The scholar warned of the effects of the junta granting themselves amnesty even if the actions were dubious.

"This is dangerous because this institutionalises and gives a legal clause to otherwise illegal actions that are explicitly damaging the protection and promotion of human rights, democracy and the rule of law."

Apart from amnesty, Haberkorn also pointed out the adverse effects of the restriction of freedom of expression and political freedom through legal and extra-legal means that includes surveillance on academic seminars and visits to people's homes by soldiers.

Even when the soldiers are polite and harmless in holding conversations and there was no arrest, it was still a form of intimidation, which shrinks the space of freedom of expression and political freedom, she said.

"It doesn't matter how polite the soldiers are. It's not the issue of politeness. It is the issue of their presence [in people's home], that we should think about," Haberkorn said.

She said under the current military regime, the restriction of freedom of expression was achieved through the use of Article 44. The clause permits the head of the National Council for Peace and Order (NCPO), General Prayut Chan-o-cha, who is also the prime minister, to issue orders and take any action he deems necessary "legal". She said the power vested under Article 44 was written vaguely and could be broadly interpreted.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Academic-blames-military-for-weakening-democracy-30264278.html

-- The Nation 2015-07-12

[givenall]

I think Academics confusing the democracy with anarchy

[Bluespunk]

"Academic blames military for weakening democracy"

Don't know if the academic was paying attention or not but prior to the coup neither the govt nor those following suthep's lunacy had much concept of democracy.

[Fat Haggis]

Manbing, smoke and mirrors for reasons for the coup.

One of The real reason is off limits for discussion.

I would haphazard in guessing you're another one who would cite " to prevent civil war" as a reason for the coup too.

[JAG]

I can't speak for "Bannum" but the circumstances surrounding the military takeover are actually very simply described.

An elected government, faced with strong extra parliamentary opposition called an election in a totally constitutional manner.

Said extra parliamentary opposition, aware that they could not muster a majority trashed the election through street thuggery. The military stood by and allowed the election to be trashed, and then used the resulting impasse as their excuse to seize power.

It was carefully planned.

Those were the circumstances surrounding the military takeover.

[Manbing]

Manbing, smoke and mirrors for reasons for the coup.

One of The real reason is off limits for discussion.

I would haphazard in guessing you're another one who would cite " to prevent civil war" as a reason for the coup too.

As opposed to another more viable reason like the army was bored one Sunday afternoon and thought what the heck, let's have some fun.

If the country was fine why bother?

[Manbing]

I can't speak for "Bannum" but the circumstances surrounding the military takeover are actually very simply described.

An elected government, faced with strong extra parliamentary opposition called an election in a totally constitutional manner.

Said extra parliamentary opposition, aware that they could not muster a majority trashed the election through street thuggery. The military stood by and allowed the election to be trashed, and then used the resulting impasse as their excuse to seize power.

It was carefully planned.

Those were the circumstances surrounding the military takeover.

'then used the resulting impasse...'

Political stalemate - is an impasse

We might disagree on the origins but share a similar view about the circumstances.

[FangFerang]

Most people intue the coup was to consolidate power forever (and with all the appointed positions, such as the one reserved for Suthep, and the gerrymandering to dilute the rural vote into a solution that is 10% democracy) they don't need coups now. It was the legendary 50 families who backed the fiasco. It is a club that accepts no new members, is predominantly Chinese-Thai, and has little tolerance for upstart telecom wizards who use their very own methods to acquire power.

Thaksin didn't invent Thai corruption -- he took advantage of it. that's why they hate him. that's why there was a coup.

Edited July 12, 2015 by FangFerang

[Fat Haggis]

Manbing, smoke and mirrors for reasons for the coup.

One of The real reason is off limits for discussion.

I would haphazard in guessing you're another one who would cite " to prevent civil war" as a reason for the coup too.

As opposed to another more viable reason like the army was bored one Sunday afternoon and thought what the heck, let's have some fun.

If the country was fine why bother?

And you will be equally aware that a coup is a very very complicated thing to plan, not something you suddenly wake up and think " sod this somchai, in gonna stage a coup today"

It's as complicated as planning an all out war, you have to prepare the battlefield, have all your assets in place, your strategies and also a Plan B if it doesn't quite go down the way it's planned.

You also seem to have forgotten to that Suthep himself has stated that he and Prayuth had been planning the coup for a number of years, now dismiss his ramblings as rumour, but then why did people follow and idolise this man for months, believed all he said, suddenly not to believe that bombshell?

The political stalemate was a reason, but elections again as per the constitution were called for the July and once again, this EC said it's too soon, so they themselves failed to operate or follow their own constitution.

The PTP had to go, no two doubts about that, the proper thing to have done was to let the elections be held, and let the people decide, the vote buying red herring is just that, it's simply an excuse, nothing more.

Vote buying has also been going on since before the thaksin era too, but it's only an excuse for the losers.

[tbthailand]

The Thai studies scholar was speaking at an international forum entitled "Democracy Drawbacks in Southeast Asia" organised by the Institute of Human Rights and Peace Studies at Mahidol University on Friday.

given the university and title of the forum, the organizers and the junta probably did not expect this type of commentary....

I'm sure it won't happen again...

[Manbing]

The Thai studies scholar was speaking at an international forum entitled "Democracy Drawbacks in Southeast Asia" organised by the Institute of Human Rights and Peace Studies at Mahidol University on Friday.

given the university and title of the forum, the organizers and the junta probably did not expect this type of commentary....

I'm sure it won't happen again...

Maybe, but they were able to air their views without being disparaged. I disagree with them though. Edited July 12, 2015 by Manbing

[trogers]

I am more afraid of a weakening of Law and Order as have seen in that few years before this coup.

[englishoak]

Military takeover is weakening to democracy ? Naaaa surely not.

Not in this loony bin country, apparently its needed saving about 30 times by the military this last 100 years, luckily only the attempts that were good and true succeeded the evil ones never prevailed in this land of perfect smiles....

They even have military operations from time to time in hotels and such with students.

[slapout]

with the vast number of self proclaimed ''experts'' who point out all negative factors they have read about, heard rumors of, informed of by criminals on the run, as well as those who are certifiable nutty as a fruit cake and thhen add the senile ex experts, none seem to offer solutions.

the complaint que is endless while those offering solutions, as well as plans to implement workable solutions are few in number. But that seems to reflect many people of many different countries of the world.

they all want to bitch and disagree with anyone who points out a solution, instead of pitching in and making a contribution to help correct a agreed bad situation. typical layabouts, think they are too good to get dirt under fingernails, raise a sweat, nor lend a helping hand. they just keep patting themselves on the back , claim expert status / knowledge while the world progresses faster than they can asses what the cause of the problem is.

[Fat Haggis]

with the vast number of self proclaimed ''experts'' who point out all negative factors they have read about, heard rumors of, informed of by criminals on the run, as well as those who are certifiable nutty as a fruit cake and thhen add the senile ex experts, none seem to offer solutions.

the complaint que is endless while those offering solutions, as well as plans to implement workable solutions are few in number. But that seems to reflect many people of many different countries of the world.

they all want to bitch and disagree with anyone who points out a solution, instead of pitching in and making a contribution to help correct a agreed bad situation. typical layabouts, think they are too good to get dirt under fingernails, raise a sweat, nor lend a helping hand. they just keep patting themselves on the back , claim expert status / knowledge while the world progresses faster than they can asses what the cause of the problem is.

Is that just a long winded way to say the OP hasn't a clue ?

[TheAppletons]

with the vast number of self proclaimed ''experts'' who point out all negative factors they have read about, heard rumors of, informed of by criminals on the run, as well as those who are certifiable nutty as a fruit cake and thhen add the senile ex experts, none seem to offer solutions.

the complaint que is endless while those offering solutions, as well as plans to implement workable solutions are few in number. But that seems to reflect many people of many different countries of the world.

they all want to bitch and disagree with anyone who points out a solution, instead of pitching in and making a contribution to help correct a agreed bad situation. typical layabouts, think they are too good to get dirt under fingernails, raise a sweat, nor lend a helping hand. they just keep patting themselves on the back , claim expert status / knowledge while the world progresses faster than they can asses what the cause of the problem is.

Is that just a long winded way to say the OP hasn't a clue ?

I think it's just a long winded way to say "the shift key on my keyboard is broken."

Edited July 12, 2015 by TheAppletons

[seajae]

ANU is known in Australia as a left leaning uni, they are always whinging about anything that is opposed the the lefts idealogy. They stayed silent while the ptp and reds were screwing Thailand and thought nothing of it but are simply trying to stir sh*t now for the sake of it. Still waiting for anyone to show us exactly how their freedoms have been stopped, not voting till next year and not being able to cause conflicts by protesting is not a very good example, what are the so called lack of freedoms that are supposedly ruing the peoples lives. As long as they actually stop at some of the corruption and get a decent voting system in place that stops all the voter rigging, some of the excuses being bandied by those opposed to whats happening are getting pretty pathetic especially when they are still accomplishing things no govt was game to tackle before them

[Fat Haggis]

Ask your wife and kids to wear a hunger games t-shirt. Armed with a book called 1984 whilst eating a sandwich in Siam Paragon and let us know what they thought, and then come back and paint the rosy picture that it's all lies about the junta clampdown.

[weegee]

ANU is known in Australia as a left leaning uni, they are always whinging about anything that is opposed the the lefts idealogy. They stayed silent while the ptp and reds were screwing Thailand and thought nothing of it but are simply trying to stir sh*t now for the sake of it. Still waiting for anyone to show us exactly how their freedoms have been stopped, not voting till next year and not being able to cause conflicts by protesting is not a very good example, what are the so called lack of freedoms that are supposedly ruing the peoples lives. As long as they actually stop at some of the corruption and get a decent voting system in place that stops all the voter rigging, some of the excuses being bandied by those opposed to whats happening are getting pretty pathetic especially when they are still accomplishing things no govt was game to tackle before them

Spot on....Just another bunch, who have to come to Thailand to feel important, because they have no credence back in Australia politically.

Everything they get involved in, they turn to utter crap.....why? because they only think, speak,act, the way they are programmed to....

Should never been allowed to speak in Thailand, and for that matter, anywhere in the world.....

[Fat Haggis]

Except that they're Thai and have a say, even if it's anti junta means that as much as its drivel and rubbish they have more of a right to say it than 99% of the TVF posters commenting on it!!

[ABCer]

For anyone with opinions.

Coup is a flawed democracy.

Democracy without regarding rights and wishes of others is nothing but rule of mob or Anarchy.

I have been waiting for this Coup for 6 months before it took place.

I don't think my Human Rights are abused or trampled on by what you call "Hunta".

When it so happens that present Leaders put their foot in the mouth - I remind myself of the others before them.

When the present Leaders do some things I disagree with - I remind myself of the others before them.

At least I can go where I want, I can drive where I want and be not afraid.

Only after you have some kind of Law and Order you can start demanding it to be the same for all.

For this kind of Democracy Thailand is clearly not ready.

For this kind of Democracy there are many prerequisites Thais must learn first.

One of these prerequisites is for your Academics be academicians not only in name, title and salary.

Edited July 12, 2015 by ABCer

[ddavidovsky]

If Thailand wants to be a proper democracy, it needs first to level its society, which takes decades. In the meantime this mess is fairly inevitable because the elite have such a well-established hierarchy of control (see them parading in their white uniforms).

Here's an opinion I've never seen articulated on here before: that in the meantime the right wing does need to be part of the legitimate political system to make the country more stable. The elite are so powerful that it is non-practicable to disenfranchise them by an election. They have to be given a political role that reflects their influence, otherwise they will take over by force - because they can - as we have repeatedly seen.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Britain go through a similar phase (centuries ago), and wasn't the solution to create a House of Lords which gave the elite a say? At least until the 'revolution' happens, perhaps a system modelled on that would be a temporary solution in Thailand. Better, in any case, than a regressive military junta that presents the risk of full-on fascism down the line.

Edited July 12, 2015 by ddavidovsky

[Fat Haggis]

For anyone with opinions.

Coup is a flawed democracy.

Democracy without regarding rights and wishes of others is nothing but rule of mob or Anarchy.

I have been waiting for this Coup for 6 months before it took place.

I don't think my Human Rights are abused or trampled on by what you call "Hunta".

When it so happens that present Leaders put their foot in the mouth - I remind myself of the others before them.

When the present Leaders do some things I disagree with - I remind myself of the others before them.

At least I can go where I want, I can drive where I want and be not afraid.

Only after you have some kind of Law and Order you can start demanding it to be the same for all.

For this kind of Democracy Thailand is clearly not ready.

For this kind of Democracy there are many prerequisites Thais must learn first.

One of these prerequisites is for your Academics be academicians not only in name, title and salary.

I'd go further, and add another in that Generals should stick to running Regiments and Corps, and not countries either!!

You're a farang, I don't know many farangs who have been taken for attitude adjustment so basically you're life just like many others who live here is actually no different to that from 1-2-3-5 years ago.

Hell you had no rights in this country 20 years ago, and you still have no rights, so really, has anything really changed for any farangs here?

I can still also move about the country, go anywhere when I want with whom I want same as I could 3 years ago, it's not about us, it's about the Thais who can't enjoy the same rights we enjoy, and well you know it.

Comparing Farang rights to Thai rights is like comparing apples to oranges.

[Baerboxer]

I can't speak for "Bannum" but the circumstances surrounding the military takeover are actually very simply described.

An elected government, faced with strong extra parliamentary opposition called an election in a totally constitutional manner.

Said extra parliamentary opposition, aware that they could not muster a majority trashed the election through street thuggery. The military stood by and allowed the election to be trashed, and then used the resulting impasse as their excuse to seize power.

It was carefully planned.

Those were the circumstances surrounding the military takeover.

Not a bad summary. You missed out the bit about an elected government receiving salaries, being owned and dictated to by a criminal fugitive to do his bidding; and the elected government doing little to prevent or capture those responsible for daily shooting, bombings and murders on their opponents, whilst vowing to protect their own militia. Also, the fact the RTP, whose job it actually is to enforce the law and maintain order, did nothing, absolutely nothing, to safeguard the election. It was their job not the military's.

I'm sure you are right - both sides planned carefully.

[than]

This academic doesn't know democracy is.

Like other western country this academics promote oligarchy

[dageurreotype]

For anyone with opinions.

Coup is a flawed democracy.

Democracy without regarding rights and wishes of others is nothing but rule of mob or Anarchy.

I have been waiting for this Coup for 6 months before it took place.

I don't think my Human Rights are abused or trampled on by what you call "Hunta".

When it so happens that present Leaders put their foot in the mouth - I remind myself of the others before them.

When the present Leaders do some things I disagree with - I remind myself of the others before them.

At least I can go where I want, I can drive where I want and be not afraid.

Only after you have some kind of Law and Order you can start demanding it to be the same for all.

For this kind of Democracy Thailand is clearly not ready.

For this kind of Democracy there are many prerequisites Thais must learn first.

One of these prerequisites is for your Academics be academicians not only in name, title and salary.

Ya see, where all these 'I don't see any rights being trampled on' posts fall flat on their faces is exactly that, you don't see them because you're not allowed. There are little bits that slip through, the landless poor being systematically thrown off their generations held land plots to give to wealthy mates, being just one. Villagers hunger striking to protect their environment from a little publicised coal fired port in the Andaman another. There surely must be more. And 'Haberkorn said this included the junta passing orders that were treated as law and adjudicating civilian cases within the military judicial system' which is what some of us posters have been answering to those who bang on about 'obeying the law' keep saying. There isn't any. They are dictats, look up the difference.

Edited July 12, 2015 by dageurreotype

[Baerboxer]

ANU is known in Australia as a left leaning uni, they are always whinging about anything that is opposed the the lefts idealogy. They stayed silent while the ptp and reds were screwing Thailand and thought nothing of it but are simply trying to stir sh*t now for the sake of it. Still waiting for anyone to show us exactly how their freedoms have been stopped, not voting till next year and not being able to cause conflicts by protesting is not a very good example, what are the so called lack of freedoms that are supposedly ruing the peoples lives. As long as they actually stop at some of the corruption and get a decent voting system in place that stops all the voter rigging, some of the excuses being bandied by those opposed to whats happening are getting pretty pathetic especially when they are still accomplishing things no govt was game to tackle before them

Spot on....Just another bunch, who have to come to Thailand to feel important, because they have no credence back in Australia politically.

Everything they get involved in, they turn to utter crap.....why? because they only think, speak,act, the way they are programmed to....

Should never been allowed to speak in Thailand, and for that matter, anywhere in the world.....

I think I recall this particular lady going on Aussie TV and openly supporting PTP and the Shin. She was making out they were great socialists, fighting for the poor, working class heroes etc. She totally ignored corruption, the Thaksin involvement, the lies, the fact the Shins are very wealthy elites in their own right, etc etc. It was all a conspiracy from the rich aristocracy and judiciary.

She came across then as someone who'd defend the old Eastern bloc democratic people's republics and their dictators too.

A case of believing what you'd like the reality to be, not what it really is.

[Manbing]

For anyone with opinions.

Coup is a flawed democracy.

Democracy without regarding rights and wishes of others is nothing but rule of mob or Anarchy.

I have been waiting for this Coup for 6 months before it took place.

I don't think my Human Rights are abused or trampled on by what you call "Hunta".

When it so happens that present Leaders put their foot in the mouth - I remind myself of the others before them.

When the present Leaders do some things I disagree with - I remind myself of the others before them.

At least I can go where I want, I can drive where I want and be not afraid.

Only after you have some kind of Law and Order you can start demanding it to be the same for all.

For this kind of Democracy Thailand is clearly not ready.

For this kind of Democracy there are many prerequisites Thais must learn first.

One of these prerequisites is for your Academics be academicians not only in name, title and salary.

Ya see, where all these 'I don't see any rights being trampled on' posts fall flat on their faces is exactly that, you don't see them because you're not allowed. There are little bits that slip through, the landless poor being systematically thrown off their generations held land plots to give to wealthy mates, being just one. Villagers hunger striking to protect their environment from a little publicised coal fired port in the Andaman another. There surely must be more. And 'Haberkorn said this included the junta passing orders that were treated as law and adjudicating civilian cases within the military judicial system' which is what some of us posters have been answering to those who bang on about 'obeying the law' keep saying. There isn't any. They are dictats, look up the difference.

These are common practices whoever is in power. And have been for ages.

Are you suggesting that red shirts in power protect the poor?

As they did with the rice scheme helping the poor by taking away all that confusing money.

[Fat Haggis]

I can't speak for "Bannum" but the circumstances surrounding the military takeover are actually very simply described.

An elected government, faced with strong extra parliamentary opposition called an election in a totally constitutional manner.

Said extra parliamentary opposition, aware that they could not muster a majority trashed the election through street thuggery. The military stood by and allowed the election to be trashed, and then used the resulting impasse as their excuse to seize power.

It was carefully planned.

Those were the circumstances surrounding the military takeover.

Not a bad summary. You missed out the bit about an elected government receiving salaries, being owned and dictated to by a criminal fugitive to do his bidding; and the elected government doing little to prevent or capture those responsible for daily shooting, bombings and murders on their opponents, whilst vowing to protect their own militia. Also, the fact the RTP, whose job it actually is to enforce the law and maintain order, did nothing, absolutely nothing, to safeguard the election. It was their job not the military's.

I'm sure you are right - both sides planned carefully.

Why did the Military deploy on the streets of Bangkok again? OH yeah, so they'd be in position for staging a coup, that's it

You are correct in that it is the RTP's job to enforce Law and order, and they failed.. What is the function of the Army again?

I'm sure that a state of emergency was also declared, which if I'm not mistaken, also allowed the Army to carry out Internal Security roles, you know, something similar to what the Police failed to do. They too stood by and allowed the elections to be disrupted in the Capital.

daily shootings, bombings and murders? Hyperbole much? As much as any death was a tragedy, over the 8 month period, there were in fact less than 1 political death a day, it works out roughly 0.17 deaths per day, so again you're dramatizing the situation and exaggerating the deaths part. Even the "daily attacks", as they were not daily either.

[ABCer]

That's right. Whoever said it - I'm a farang. And I never get involved in any of Thai politics. But I can and do observe.

My de-facto wife of nearly 8 years is Thai. She travels free alone and with me within country and abroad.

It would really help if you people (I mean speaking here on behalf of Thais) spelled out what do you want?

Democracy? ... You are not ready for a real thing. The strange thing you had was not a real Democracy. And it was taken away from you by about 9 Coups.

Coups do not weaken Democracy. They happen when it is weak! Or when it is a pseudo-Democracy.

Besides, are you really sure Thais want it? Be careful for what you are wishing...

IMHO all those 'progressives' Red, Yellow, Blue, White and Green shirts in black miniskirts who use Nazi style salute don't know what year is today.

Before starting yet another bout of "Democracy" in Thailand get them educated first.

Edited July 12, 2015 by ABCer