The Farang And Thailand

[backflip]

"amazingly, in your seemingly infinite erudition, you comment on a cartoon quote but ignore the comment about the differences in military doctrine outlined in clausewitz vs those outlined in sun tzu?"

Neither Clauswitz nor Sun Tzu uttered the words you quoted, so it's a mystery why you included them.

[zeusbheld]

"amazingly, in your seemingly infinite erudition, you comment on a cartoon quote but ignore the comment about the differences in military doctrine outlined in clausewitz vs those outlined in sun tzu?"

Neither Clauswitz nor Sun Tzu uttered the words you quoted, so it's a mystery why you included them.

because if the military classics of a culture are indicative of their general attitude, as some posters implied with the chinese and sun tzu, westerners could be painted as even more ruthless and bloodthirsty. clausewitz' actual words were a bit more moderate but the doctrine of total war is derived from clausewitz (and yes i know that's a glib overgeneralization but hopefully you get the point). Mutual Assured Destruction, the cold war doctrine, was rooted in total war as an option. by these posters 'logic' then, they should be more worried about themselves, as sun tzu is somewhat measured compared to clausewitz (although maybe machiavelli would be a better comparison, IMO the point still stands).

thus the quote--it is from the 50s, the comic strip was in reaction to the threat of nuclear war, and mutual assured destruction.

short version:

A.) it is silly to say chinese are ruthless coz they read sun tzu.

b.) if the logic is true, then we should be worse, given we westerners have clausewitz, machiavelli, etc. c.) so if you are to say a, and you're trying to be consistent, you have to accept b.), and therefore be more afraid of yourself than the 'thainese menace.'

so to be even more explicit: don't invoke sun tzu in broad, xenophobic posts about the broad xenophobia of the chinese, thanks.

clear yet? sadly, i can keep going...

[tomyummer]

THe Visa issue. It's really quite simple. Thailand is no longer the Thailand many once knew. The traditional Thai generosity and hospitality is being fazed out. This is clearly reflected in the continuing increase in the cost of immigration fees, as well as many other aspect of business.

Why is this? Thailand is no longer Thai. It is operated predominantly by Chinese and Thainese business persons along the classic, typical lines of the ancient Chinese business traditions. The warmth and hospitality the Thai's have been famous for for centuries is being replaced. It has no cash value. For those of you who don't know and understand the typical Chinese business ethic, there are only two aspects to dealing with other people. Family and profit. Nothing comes before these two and these two rigidly rule and dictate all life in any Chinese society.

How this effects the farang.

First, replace the word farang with money. That is all you are. Even if you manage to gain some degree of status, you are not a local, you are not an inside part of a Chinese/Thainese business operation, and you are certainly not a member of a family.

Thailand has also made it abundantly clear, as China has already established, human rights are valueless. Human rights and pursuit of a life of dignity has no cash value. Thailand is not signatory to the International Refugee Conventions, and commonly and flagrantly violates human rights laws with complete impunity. Their treatment of both refugees and stateless tribal persons is quite clear as far as this is concerned. No profit, no recognition, no rights, no voice.

This attitude is reflected in many aspects of the immigration laws. Notice things such as exemplary conduct on behalf of the farang wishing to stay in Thailand for an extended period is not recognized. There isn't even a place in the system where this can be taken into account.

The newest set of rules and restrictions reflects this purely business ethic. Examine. The casual visitor is cash. While some are dirt poor backpackers, many are big bucks tourists. The new rules regarding Visa on arrival go with a charted trend. The most amount of cash from visitors comes in the first two weeks of the visit to Thailand. This cash flow slowly tapers off until after a certain period of time and the visitor only offers a minimal amount of profit. The immigration department is presently experimenting with what length of time is sufficient to relieve the visitor of most of their cash in an unrestricted manner. Since it is deemed there is still a significant profit to be made from the extended on arrival visitor, they extend the hospitality gesture to 90 days. Beyond that period of time the profit becomes too minimal in comparison to the expenses. As it is impossible to discriminate between the flea infested backpacker and the megabucks crowd, they are simply offering an envelope of time which fully accomodates the greatest amount of money.

As any long stay person has noticed, everything is being upscaled. 5 star hotels are popping up like mushrooms. 100 baht a night guest houses are a thing of the past. As the conglomerates, coporations, and group business venture interests consolidate their holdings, they are moving farther and farther away from the minimal profit ventures. The smaller businessmen are being phased out.

What this means to the expat farang is simple. Are you Yi baht? If not, please leave. You as a person has no cash value. You are not wanted in Thailand at all. Only your money is desired. As the flow from your pocket decreases, so does your desireability.

Sound mercenary? Depressing? Unnecessarily pessimistic? It isn't in the least. It is only good business sense, as tried and proven since before written history throughout China.

Now some will immediately point out the long stay expat still represents some degree of cash flow. Examine where this cash is flowing. The big buck short stay visitors money mostly goes into the pockets of the large corporations and business interests. The long term visitor patronizes the locals. While this injects a cash flow which is eventually realized by the people at the top, the flow is insignificant compared to the preferred short term visitor. The short term visitor dumps 10,000 to 50,000 per day or more directly into the corporate/conglomerate pockets, the long term, 1000 to 5000, or less. Now keep in mind, the ones who run the country and make the rules, generally speaking, are all in the 6 or 7 figures per month income and already have established their ways of siphoning off the money from the little folks without having to rely on the long term expat farang.

And so, it is up to the long term expat to prove their value to the general economy. The problem there being, you can't. You cannot prove your money is going to support this or that political faction. Will be firmly attached to a certain family or business groups special interests. Quite to the contrary. This influx of cash is uncontrolled and unregulated. This, as a general rule, is very much unwanted. Thailand is ran and ruled by money and power in a strict dichotomy. The last thing the powers that be want is the little guy amassing significant amounts of personal wealth.

i have to agree. there was a documentary i watched in singapore detailing the chinese "culture" of business. the book to read was "the art of war". i believe that there may two books of the same title by two different authors. live and learn.

Art of War by Sun Tzu (Chinese Version)

Book of 5 Rings (Japanese Version)

[zeusbheld]

after reading about the mechanics of the coup, i'd guess general sonthi studied sun tzu.

it was an efficient piece of work, and was over before it had a chance to erupt into violence. military units commanded by thaksin cronies were pinned in their barracks before they knew anything was happening.

[astral]

Art of War by Sun Tzu (Chinese Version)

Book of 5 Rings (Japanese Version)

Surely this should be standard reading for any military tactician?

I guess Thaksin is ruing the day when he skipped this class.

[The Snark]

A few comments on the comments.

George W needs to read Sun Tzu. Especially: "You win battles by gaining territory. You win wars by gaining the hearts and minds of the people."

Farang: Non Thai/Asian.

As far as dealing with Thai bureaucracy is concerned... Every time I have had contact with them, at the end of the ordeal I want to run out and hug people and kiss stray dogs. My previous dealings with Burrocracy was the American (anti)Social (in)Security Orifices. To clarify, since I dress appropriately and conduct myself properly, the Thai Immigration folks have always been absolutely wonderful.

My anecdote of Thai Immigration. (Compare this to the undoubted abuse you would have got in another country)

Upon visiting Burma the Immigration department at Mae Sai pointed out that the date on my Visa was illegible and they could only give me 30 days instead of 90.. (THe Consulate in New York did a real botch job stamping the date.) The immigration folks were obviously expecting the usual @$$hole farang outburst. I just asked how I could fix things. They referred me to the Immigration department in Chiang Mai.

I went to the Chiang Mai Immigration. They too were expecting the usual farang <deleted>. They could not handle my problem as their computers wouldn't do the job. They told me to go to the Immigration office at the Airport.

Off to the airport. The head honcho of the Immigration office there was quite happy to chat with me and practice his English. Somehow we got to chatting about fishing. He was an avid fisherman. I told him about our fishing off the north coast of California and described our rock and ling cod. He was drooling. A subordinate came in and he sent her off for coffee for us both.

He then got out his magnifying glass and inspected my passport. No problem. He took out his business card and in minute writing explained the problem and that he had personally vouched for me. He had this stapled to my passport.

Thry getting that kind of service in any other country.

[Firefan]

Good story Snark!

Oh, and I am sure that, that name card is STILL stapled into your passport! Cheers!

[zeusbheld]

Thry getting that kind of service in any other country.

very cool. i have been treated very well by thai immigration everywhere except the consulate in new york, but then they deal with new yorkers all day don't they.

believe it or not, i got a similarly high level of service... in shanghai of all places.

i lost my passport in shanghai a couple of years ago, so i had to get a new one, get a new visa, etc. in time to make a flight.

the US consulate was predictably officious and annoying. i patiently, politely kept asking 'isn't there anyone else i can talk to?' and got kicked upstairs to the 2nd-in-charge, who was very personable and expedited the case.

surprisingly, the service i got from the chinese immigration office was much better, and i didnt have to bribe anyone (a little bird in beijing told me most expats in china make their visa runs via bribe). the english speaking girl (there was a total of one) swiftly handled my case, cut out a lot of the bureacratic fat, and even took the time to make fun of my signature (which deserves ridicule). very service-oriented, although i suspect it was the individual and not a matter of policy.

[zeusbheld]

ps, snark...

if you do end up kissing stray dogs, for god's sake be selective. some soi dogs look like they have leprosy or something...

[Unknown]

Thailand is no longer the Thailand many once knew. The traditional Thai generosity and hospitality is being fazed out. This is clearly reflected in the continuing increase in the cost of immigration fees, as well as many other aspect of business.

Why is this? Thailand is no longer Thai. It is operated predominantly by Chinese and Thainese business persons along the classic, typical lines of the ancient Chinese business traditions. The warmth and hospitality the Thai's have been famous for for centuries is being replaced. It has no cash value. For those of you who don't know and understand the typical Chinese business ethic, there are only two aspects to dealing with other people. Family and profit. Nothing comes before these two and these two rigidly rule and dictate all life in any Chinese society.

I mostly agree with this statement.

What I do not agree with is that you point out the Chinese only but the non Chinese Thais are learning fast...

[The Snark]

Thailand is no longer the Thailand many once knew. The traditional Thai generosity and hospitality is being fazed out. This is clearly reflected in the continuing increase in the cost of immigration fees, as well as many other aspect of business.

Why is this? Thailand is no longer Thai. It is operated predominantly by Chinese and Thainese business persons along the classic, typical lines of the ancient Chinese business traditions. The warmth and hospitality the Thai's have been famous for for centuries is being replaced. It has no cash value. For those of you who don't know and understand the typical Chinese business ethic, there are only two aspects to dealing with other people. Family and profit. Nothing comes before these two and these two rigidly rule and dictate all life in any Chinese society.

I mostly agree with this statement.

What I do not agree with is that you point out the Chinese only but the non Chinese Thais are learning fast...

We could get into a debate about that. Yes, the Thai's, primarily the ruling-authority class, is learning fast. I'm out in the rice fields and I normally see and speak with 1 farang a week. The rest of my human contact is Thai farmers. In them I don't see the calculated deviousness, the cunning, and the automatic 'make a buck here if you can' thinking. Thais general tend to be much more live for today, have fun, and are certainly more laid back. A good example is go into a Chinese or Thainese store. You will have a salesperson right up in your face instantly. Go into a Thai store and you may have to search for an employee. This is so much a rule of thumb, when I go to buy something and I simply want to look around without being bothered I will pick a purely Thai store. If I want to ask questions, I'll choose a Chinese/Thainese one.