The Islamization of Thailand

[simple1]

What is interesting is the effect both of those religions had on each other. Besides the obvious Christian influences on Islamice scriptures, there's the moulding of Catholic doctrine that drew parallels from Islam. Convert or die, indulgences (first recorded instance was for Crusaders [née Jihadists) who participated in a holy war to retake original Christian lands), the absence of "old" cities along the Mediterranean coast due to Muslim raiders, the reintroduction of slavery to an area that had banned it under Christian Roman rule with the North African Muslims acting as the primary slave traders, the cruelest Christian Europeans being those who suffered the most under Muslim invaders, etc.

There seems to be a clear divide, to me at least, between Christianity and Islam in regards to their interpretations of the respective holy texts. Islam teaches Dar-al-Hab and Dar-al-Islam are in perpetual war; the Christian holy texts direct violence at certain people at a certain times in the past. Both teach that new passages supersede older ones; the difference is that newer passages in the Koran are much more violent and intolerant than older verses whereas the newer passages in the Bible have more peaceful messages.

I agree with several of the points you made on the similarities and differences between these two faiths.

I always try to separate religious faith from socio-political control. Even the term terrorism is a politically-anchored term, and many so-called "religious terrorists" are motivated entirely by Earthly matters such as socio-politics.

Religion to me describes a person's inner dialogue with God. It is the faith in God, and the love for God. After that you get the books, addendum texts, physical places of worship, sacred lands, and self-proclaimed experts (religious leaders). For me as a Christian, I base my faith on my own experiences more than random phrases in ancient manuscripts. In my prayer, and often in mundane situations, I have seen God. To me this is the pure essence of all religions, including Buddhism and Islam. How seriously we want to take the ancient addendum texts is a matter of personal choice, but also of education. I would compare much of the old religious lore to Wiki, people add texts and then they die, then the next generation will add new texts and so on. Wiki is interesting and useful, but I would never rate it as a more reliable source of information than an individual's direct empirical life-experiences.

I feel the same way about priests, clerics and monks. Even without the constant news stories about how degenerate and corrupt many of these individuals are, I question their very role itself. If a religion is defined as my belief in God, and my personal life experiences with God, then why would I need a priest to act as an intermediary between myself and God. The interesting thing about Islam today, and apparently hidden from the Daily Mail, is this very same discussion among Muslims, about how this primacy of the individual and the divine is actually the true fundamentalism. There is nothing more fundamental for a religious person, than their own individual journey with God, this trumps all the books, buildings and priests combined. Knowledge of this inner dialogue is a beautiful and liberating thing. I am encouraged to see this gradual return to the fundamentals of faith, true faith becoming more centre-stage after so many years of watching from the wings, and seeing all our religions being misappropriated and used as sociopolitical weapons.

I respect your posting. Personally I admire Vedic philosophy that in my opinion is encapsulated in the Bhadaranyaka Upanishad below.

Lead me from the unreal to the Real

Lead me from darkness to Light

Lead me from Death to Immortality

With regard to Sunni extremism my understanding the violence is based upon the Islamic version of the apocalypse. A component of the doctrine to bring the apocalypse to the fore is the establishment of a Caliphate, this is documented in the “Management of Savagery”. "Management of Savagery" was originally implemented by Al Qaeda in Iraq and now by DAESH. In your opinion is this primarily socio political or fundamentally religious in nature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Management_of_Savagery

[Shawn0001]

Turkish-Doner-Lamb-Kebab2-iStock.jpg

God Almighty, it's this nonsense again. Basically, halal food is harmless, and kebabs are good. It's not a problem if these kebab shops appear in lots of places. I was pissed out of mind on Friday night, and had a extra-large doner kebab. The only problem being that it cost £7.00, seven pounds, that's a bit over ten US dollars.

It's not harmless. For some people with religious beliefs they cannot consume meat from an animal which was made to suffer at the point of death.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good, but at least some Halal authorities do allow stunning, there is nothing in the Koran to say that the animal must not be stunned , just that it must not be dead before the blood is let, of course Kosher is a different matter all together.

[Bluespunk]

Amazing how much hate such a crappy article can generate.

Still bigotry, intolerance and prejudice just needs an excuse, any excuse, to puke up it's BS.

[flyingdoc]

A problem no-one wants to discuss!

[Emster23]

no one seems to want to look at the 500 lb gorilla behind all this. Enough worrying about the leaves, let's talk about the roots of religious violence: it's religion! Wow, who would have thought of that! Nothing else seems to come near religions ability to convince good people to do bad things and feel good about it. those who behead infidels and such really do think they are doing God's work, doing good. Similar to philosophy of church with conquistadors: better to die a Christian slave than a free heathen.

[cumgranosalum]

A problem no-one wants to discuss!

Interesting post this - it sums up in a nutshell the attitudes and also critical abilities of most of contributors to this thread.

Firstly it appears to blindly accept that the problem as described actually exists - it doesn't.

Secondly on an intellectual or reasoning level it couldn't be lower as it suggests no-one wants to discuss it....well for a start there have been over a hundred posts on this thread alone and if you the 5 minutes to Google you will see the racist misinformation is promulgated profusely throughout the net.

What this actually is is a thread based on a false premise that allows the bootless and unhorsed to air their bigoted, hateful views without a real person humiliating them in front of other real people.

[cumgranosalum]

no one seems to want to look at the 500 lb gorilla behind all this. Enough worrying about the leaves, let's talk about the roots of religious violence: it's religion! Wow, who would have thought of that! Nothing else seems to come near religions ability to convince good people to do bad things and feel good about it. those who behead infidels and such really do think they are doing God's work, doing good. Similar to philosophy of church with conquistadors: better to die a Christian slave than a free heathen.

Here's another non-starter!

anyone with any knowledge of history will tell you that wars, strife etc that appears sectarian in nature are in reality all about power and economics. Religion is used as a tool by many to control or even provoke the masses - looking at this thread ,you can see it works........

[DrTuner]

Enough worrying about the leaves, let's talk about the roots of religious violence: it's religion!

True. But looks like us pagans aren't any better either, when it comes to toppling religions, hey, show me where the front line is. The true roots I'd say are in the human condition and religions are just exploits of it.

Solution: bring back the gladiators and let them satiate the public blood lust.

[ddavidovsky]

no one seems to want to look at the 500 lb gorilla behind all this. Enough worrying about the leaves, let's talk about the roots of religious violence: it's religion! Wow, who would have thought of that! Nothing else seems to come near religions ability to convince good people to do bad things and feel good about it. those who behead infidels and such really do think they are doing God's work, doing good. Similar to philosophy of church with conquistadors: better to die a Christian slave than a free heathen.

Here's another non-starter!

anyone with any knowledge of history will tell you that wars, strife etc that appears sectarian in nature are in reality all about power and economics. Religion is used as a tool by many to control or even provoke the masses - looking at this thread ,you can see it works........

Religion is surely used in some countries as a means of top-down political control, but the existence of religion in the first place is something more fundamental - it's really all about competition between groups. The brotherhood of man is a myth - it's one group against another in the fight for limited resources. In times of plenty the competitive urge is sublimated into supporting football teams and suchlike, but when resources become scarce, then it will become clear what the different groups are for - and the result won't be pretty.

Edited July 17, 2015 by ddavidovsky

[cumgranosalum]

no one seems to want to look at the 500 lb gorilla behind all this. Enough worrying about the leaves, let's talk about the roots of religious violence: it's religion! Wow, who would have thought of that! Nothing else seems to come near religions ability to convince good people to do bad things and feel good about it. those who behead infidels and such really do think they are doing God's work, doing good. Similar to philosophy of church with conquistadors: better to die a Christian slave than a free heathen.

Here's another non-starter!

anyone with any knowledge of history will tell you that wars, strife etc that appears sectarian in nature are in reality all about power and economics. Religion is used as a tool by many to control or even provoke the masses - looking at this thread ,you can see it works........

Religion is surely used in some countries as a means of top-down political control, but the existence of religion in the first place is something more fundamental - it's really all about competition between groups. The brotherhood of man is a myth - it's one group against another in the fight for limited resources. In times of plenty the competitive urge is sublimated into supporting football teams and suchlike, but when resources become scarce, then it will become clear what the different groups are for - and the result won't be pretty.

I think you need to read up on why and how religions come about.

[ddavidovsky]

no one seems to want to look at the 500 lb gorilla behind all this. Enough worrying about the leaves, let's talk about the roots of religious violence: it's religion! Wow, who would have thought of that! Nothing else seems to come near religions ability to convince good people to do bad things and feel good about it. those who behead infidels and such really do think they are doing God's work, doing good. Similar to philosophy of church with conquistadors: better to die a Christian slave than a free heathen.

Here's another non-starter!

anyone with any knowledge of history will tell you that wars, strife etc that appears sectarian in nature are in reality all about power and economics. Religion is used as a tool by many to control or even provoke the masses - looking at this thread ,you can see it works........

Religion is surely used in some countries as a means of top-down political control, but the existence of religion in the first place is something more fundamental - it's really all about competition between groups. The brotherhood of man is a myth - it's one group against another in the fight for limited resources. In times of plenty the competitive urge is sublimated into supporting football teams and suchlike, but when resources become scarce, then it will become clear what the different groups are for - and the result won't be pretty.

I think you need to read up on why and how religions come about.

Religions come about through insecurity, and security is what religions are used for today. Unfortunately, security involves attack as well as defence.

As it's human nature to compete, the situation can't be remedied. The only solution is to manage human affairs sustainably, but that doesn't seem to be human nature.

[AyG]

Religions come about through insecurity, and security is what religions are used for today. Unfortunately, security involves attack as well as defence.

As it's human nature to compete, the situation can't be remedied. The only solution is to manage human affairs sustainably, but that doesn't seem to be human nature.

Tom Lehrer summed it up quite nicely in "National Brotherhood Week"

"Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics,

And the Catholics hate the Protestants,

And the Hindus hate the Moslems,

And everybody hates the Jews."

[DM07]

Weather Islam, Christian or any other cross section of society is not the issue. The issue is the fanatical element of that cross section that damages the overall spirit that cross section stands for.

I pity the peaceful Islamists, the peaceful Christians and the peaceful constituents of any society that are misrepresented by the minority of the "faith" or "belief"

I can use a current group in Thailand whose 7% minority denigrate the group as a whole. I could provide links to prove that, but alas it would be removed.

To that end, I respect all Muslims in Thailand as long as they are not fanatical. I have enough problems with the other fanatics in Thailand to worry about the Muslims...

Take care and have a great Friday everyone.

You started out, sounding like a normal, reasonable person...and then came line 4....

Or in this format: the line that starts with "I can use..."

Edited July 17, 2015 by DM07

[cumgranosalum]

no one seems to want to look at the 500 lb gorilla behind all this. Enough worrying about the leaves, let's talk about the roots of religious violence: it's religion! Wow, who would have thought of that! Nothing else seems to come near religions ability to convince good people to do bad things and feel good about it. those who behead infidels and such really do think they are doing God's work, doing good. Similar to philosophy of church with conquistadors: better to die a Christian slave than a free heathen.

Here's another non-starter!

anyone with any knowledge of history will tell you that wars, strife etc that appears sectarian in nature are in reality all about power and economics. Religion is used as a tool by many to control or even provoke the masses - looking at this thread ,you can see it works........

Religion is surely used in some countries as a means of top-down political control, but the existence of religion in the first place is something more fundamental - it's really all about competition between groups. The brotherhood of man is a myth - it's one group against another in the fight for limited resources. In times of plenty the competitive urge is sublimated into supporting football teams and suchlike, but when resources become scarce, then it will become clear what the different groups are for - and the result won't be pretty.

I think you need to read up on why and how religions come about.

Religions come about through insecurity, and security is what religions are used for today. Unfortunately, security involves attack as well as defence.

As it's human nature to compete, the situation can't be remedied. The only solution is to manage human affairs sustainably, but that doesn't seem to be human nature.

Give that 5 out of 10... Assuming you are in fourth gradegrade.

[cumgranosalum]

no one seems to want to look at the 500 lb gorilla behind all this. Enough worrying about the leaves, let's talk about the roots of religious violence: it's religion! Wow, who would have thought of that! Nothing else seems to come near religions ability to convince good people to do bad things and feel good about it. those who behead infidels and such really do think they are doing God's work, doing good. Similar to philosophy of church with conquistadors: better to die a Christian slave than a free heathen.

Here's another non-starter!

anyone with any knowledge of history will tell you that wars, strife etc that appears sectarian in nature are in reality all about power and economics. Religion is used as a tool by many to control or even provoke the masses - looking at this thread ,you can see it works........

Religion is surely used in some countries as a means of top-down political control, but the existence of religion in the first place is something more fundamental - it's really all about competition between groups. The brotherhood of man is a myth - it's one group against another in the fight for limited resources. In times of plenty the competitive urge is sublimated into supporting football teams and suchlike, but when resources become scarce, then it will become clear what the different groups are for - and the result won't be pretty.

I think you need to read up on why and how religions come about.

Religions come about through insecurity, and security is what religions are used for today. Unfortunately, security involves attack as well as defence.

As it's human nature to compete, the situation can't be remedied. The only solution is to manage human affairs sustainably, but that doesn't seem to be human nature.

Give that 5 out of 10... Assuming you are in fourth grade

[Linzz]

The Islamization of Thailand

Started by Jonathan Fairfield, 2015-07-15 17:44

This old hoary chestnut again! All those fine words and then the sensational headline The Islamization of Thailand aimed to bring out the worst emotions and drive traffic to this site, so much provocative nonsense and manipulation by the OP/Moderator and cynical journalistic practice in my view.

Too many cranky emotional chest beating from posters too. Videos with scary music to whip up fear and recrimination asking what are we going to do about the threat, but no solutions to the so called threat just "17 years away the clock is ticking ...just wait and they will take over the world...one day you will wake up and find out you are on sharia trial...Our freedom of speech and freedom to practice religion will be our downfall..muslim invasion....be careful you dont fall asleep because islam is coming to you as a thief in the night." So many emotive words and conjecture stated as fact.

How do you posters know this stuff? Prophesy? Or just plain old presumption? Civilisations come and go for centuries and there is only so far the pendulum can swing. Does no one know that we can't lump all Muslims together as one? I have an Fijian Indian Muslim neighbor, a lawyer and he is as different from an Arabic extremist in language customs culture and ethnicity as I am from any Thai. That makes them all diverse and different apart from religion, and they all have different interpretations of that.

Of course we all agree about the so called jihadist sickos welding guns and the danger of medievel minds and modern technology being a lethal combination. Also the bigoted and rascist Imams and brainwashers who have perverted their own religion. But this is not all pervasive.

"Anyone who believes that islamization (in any part of world) is not a problem, is an ignorant, blind and deaf dreamer. Anyone who states that Islam is a religion of piece is a blunt liar or did never read a word in that book." Peace I think this poster meant, then attached a number of Koranic quotes. Do I have to look into the Old Testament to see directives from God to the killing of infidels or in this case the uncircumsized?

Another poster " If you are not a muslim then you will be dealing with jihad in the near future." Very categorical.

The word 'jihad' does not singularly mean what most people term in common usage in the West as a loaded term. Jihad is often used to mean a personal struggle in devotion to Islam especially involving spiritual discipline. "To strive, to apply oneself, to struggle, to persevere." (Arabic)

If what is quoted below is true then Islam has become very distorted even hijacked in some quarters by the extremists

.

"Jihad is not a violent concept.

Jihad is not a declaration of war against other religions. It is worth noting that the Koran specifically refers to Jews and Christians as "people of the book" who should be protected and respected. All three faiths worship the same God. Allah is just the Arabic word for God, and is used by Christian Arabs as well as Muslims.

Military action in the name of Islam has not been common in the history of Islam. Scholars says most calls for violent jihad are not sanctioned by Islam.

Warfare in the name of God is not unique to Islam. Other faiths throughout the world have waged wars with religious justifications"

-Islamic supreme Council of America

"Typical of lefties to ignore all the evidence" says one poster

BTW I am not a lefty or a righty but I hope a moderate.

Take care everyone and don't be manipulated

[PaPiPuPePo]

Turkish-Doner-Lamb-Kebab2-iStock.jpg

God Almighty, it's this nonsense again. Basically, halal food is harmless, and kebabs are good. It's not a problem if these kebab shops appear in lots of places. I was pissed out of mind on Friday night, and had a extra-large doner kebab. The only problem being that it cost £7.00, seven pounds, that's a bit over ten US dollars.

Be glad you don't know what kind of meat they use for these giro kebabs.....

So at least one other person knows they use floor sweepings for the "kebab stock." It looks like a hunk of meat on a skewer, but in fact it's bottom of the barrel "meat-like food stuff," well it's probably all animal parts.

And do you want to claim stuff like how the big chain fast food companies put horsemeat into their burgers, and how fried chicken is actually rat ? It's a good job that you're not famous, and saying this about a big company. End up being sued or looking ridiculous after scoring an own goal.

Ooookay....I'm not "claiming" anything. I'm passing on what I've read about the constitution of these rotisserie meat-thingys (Europe, SE Asia, Japan). I guess those writers can get sued.

You either work for one of these companies or you're being a concern troll. Save it for someone who'll listen.

[Yunla]

I respect your posting. Personally I admire Vedic philosophy that in my opinion is encapsulated in the Bhadaranyaka Upanishad below.

Lead me from the unreal to the Real

Lead me from darkness to Light

Lead me from Death to Immortality

With regard to Sunni extremism my understanding the violence is based upon the Islamic version of the apocalypse. A component of the doctrine to bring the apocalypse to the fore is the establishment of a Caliphate, this is documented in the “Management of Savagery”. "Management of Savagery" was originally implemented by Al Qaeda in Iraq and now by DAESH. In your opinion is this primarily socio political or fundamentally religious in nature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Management_of_Savagery

Thankyou for your reply, and for posting those sublime words of Vedic philosophy.

To answer your question, I would certainly class the Caliphate and MOS as purely sociopolitical and military. There is a "mind the gap" aspect to these discussions, a notice has to be posted to alert some readers or listeners to the very existence of a gap. This whole picture is much clearer for those who have had life-experiences with celestial bliss, encounters with God, they know about the gap and do not need to be reminded of it.

The gap in question relates to the fundamental notion of God, be that the more Eastern notion of "internal journeys to become as god" or the idea of an external God who you nonetheless can only contact internally. In both cases we are accepting the existence of a celestial bliss, a divine being. This to me is the only thing that "religion" is about, and then everything else is sociopolitical and military control modules that are entirely Earth-based. The latter categories are trapped forever in the material plane, they literally can not be related to religion as they do not occupy the higher spiritual realm. "A one-winged bird knows not the sky." And the point about "mind the gap" is that a person can never be entirely on the train and on the platform at the same time, and there is a gap. People who do not believe in the existence of a train, will immediately fail to believe in the gap between platform and train. They see the platform, with nothing else, so they do not understand how there could be a gap.

This sounds silly, but it is fundamental and overlooked. When a person prays or meditates, they climb aboard the train, minding the gap automatically as they already know it is there. When the person is doing anything else relating to understanding God, reading religious books, singing in church, and so on, they are waiting on the platform for the train to arrive. In terms of religious faith, everything else is just loitering on the platform aimlessly, and this includes all sociopolitical aspects, territorial, military, sectarian, legal, etc.

This can be noted clearly by seeing a person in deep prayer, they are totally relaxed and at peace. They have no desire to convert you, or command you with laws, or force you to fight for their agenda. They have no agenda. Their soul is in Heaven. This is true faith. It is so obvious, the difference between that praying person, and people who shout, demand obedience and power, and say that this is in fact true faith. The latter is relating entirely to material existence, with all the stratified social structures that exist only the material plane. I say they are truly welcome to hang around bickering over who owns the platform, if they want it so much, I only came here for the train.

Edited July 18, 2015 by Yunla

[Bulldozer Dawn]

Althought the relevant article is piffle, this is an issue that is very much alive for Phuket.

It is also one facet of the many reasons why I recently chose to move from the Island.

There is another popular thread running talking about how dead Patong is at the moment. That may be true but what has not been discussed is the significant shift in the demographic of the visitors to Phuket. There is a huge influx of chinese. That is a given. But they are zero dollar tourists, who rarely venture out of their packaged group environment to interface with workaday thai folk. If the Chinese stock market continues to tank then these visitors may well dry up, or if they tire of the scams, for example being bused in to a mall to buy latex products that were imported from China and then put in a bag labelled made in Thailand, they will go elsewhere.

But, chinese aside, who are the new source markets for Phuket tourists? What I see on the ground are morrocans, kuwaitees, iranians, and other muslim visitors. A growing trend I have observed is muslim men, with their wifes, walking down Bangla. Why on earth a married muslim would want to walk with his wife on a street filled with prostitutes and bars selling alcohol is beyond me but there you go. As the Chinese dry up, or wise up, to Phuket, the remaining tourist demographic will be Muslim men. Of course they are only staying in Patong for its great mosque. If, in the near future, the bulk of vistors to Phuket are muslim, it would seem safe to assume that the tourist areas will eventually undergo total Islamization. Not a big leap for Kamala, or Bang Tao.

And what is wrong with some areas being Islamic. You probably don't know that the largest Muslim country in the world is Indonesia. The Muslims that travel as tourists from Malaysia and Indonesia and Iran bear little resemblance to those from Arab countries which practice strict Islam. They are Malays and Persians and are very westernised. Having lived in these countries I would prefer them as tourists to a lot of other nationalities including some of the low life Fanangs ones sees here

I speak fluent bahasa Indonesian and have spent a good deal of my life in that country. I too, would also be happier mixing with Indonesian muslim familes rather than the white trash one often sees in Thailand. However, after living in Phuket for more than 5 years, I can say that I never met a single Indonesian. Not one. And speaking the language I can easily pick one out in a crowd. I did meet a few Malayasians.

I have several Thai muslim friends, a couple of them a very good friends. I recently attended a muslim wedding in Bang Tao. However, from my observations the nature of Thai Muslims is a lot more soft edged than their Morrocan, Lebanese and Arabic brethren I see prowling around in Patong in packs and haggling to pay a single pay fine for a girl to come back to a room with five guys inside.

If Phuket was colonised entirely by Thai muslims, I think it would actually be an ok place to live. If it slowly fills up with Morrocans, Lebanese, Iranians and Kuwaitees, as is currently the case, my decision to leave Phuket for good last year was both timely and prudent.

[Lorn]

On the OP itself, I agree with some earlier posters that it is pure sensationalism. So obviously so that I'd feel foolish refuting it.

On Islam in SEA, and around the world, it is going through a similar reformation to that which Christianity went through a long time ago. The factional extremist disputes in Christianity were often bloody and oppressive, we are seeing a similar picture in Islam and for the same reasons, the reformation of perception. Perception of how much credence to give to specific phrases in any given holy book, and the perception of dominator tribal traits that were cloaked in theology for reasons of power. There is a quiet reformation happening right now, and it is not only on Sunni-Shia lines. It is on the lines of normal working families who love Allah and many of the teachings in religious lore, but who choose to ignore the "by the sword" teachings, just as most Christians have learned to do. They are reforming their religion away from the brutality of military Islamic theocracy, which at its heart was never religious at all, it is a cruel trick, an abuse of faith for reasons of social control. The arrival of digital communication has enabled Muslims to discuss these subjects and find common ground on how faith should fit into modern life. And if you think you're tired of hearing about ISIS and brutal theocrats, thats nothing compared to how tired of it all my Muslim friends are.

A wiser person than me once commented on times of great social change, he compared the societal upheavals to a childbirth. There is screaming and blood, and an observer would think that somebody was dying, but actually it is the very opposite, the birth of a new life. This is the same for religious reformations, it is a re-birth and accompanied by tumultuous signatures.

It is also fascinating how fast the blinkers come on, when this subject is discussed. Suddenly everyone is an angel and the world is filled with peace and joy, except for the group in question. How absurd.

What is interesting is the effect both of those religions had on each other. Besides the obvious Christian influences on Islamice scriptures, there's the moulding of Catholic doctrine that drew parallels from Islam. Convert or die, indulgences (first recorded instance was for Crusaders [née Jihadists) who participated in a holy war to retake original Christian lands), the absence of "old" cities along the Mediterranean coast due to Muslim raiders, the reintroduction of slavery to an area that had banned it under Christian Roman rule with the North African Muslims acting as the primary slave traders, the cruelest Christian Europeans being those who suffered the most under Muslim invaders, etc.

There seems to be a clear divide, to me at least, between Christianity and Islam in regards to their interpretations of the respective holy texts. Islam teaches Dar-al-Hab and Dar-al-Islam are in perpetual war; the Christian holy texts direct violence at certain people at a certain times in the past. Both teach that new passages supersede older ones; the difference is that newer passages in the Koran are much more violent and intolerant than older verses whereas the newer passages in the Bible have more peaceful messages.

The God of the old testament was a psychopath. Not sure how the Koran God could be much worse. Also no idea how anyone can believe the God that did those things and directed his followers to do those things suddenly became a peace loving God that should be followed/worshipped/listened to. Insanity.

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2011/04/good-people-in-bible-its-short-list.html

[Puwa]

A problem no-one wants to discuss!

Interesting post this - it sums up in a nutshell the attitudes and also critical abilities of most of contributors to this thread.

Firstly it appears to blindly accept that the problem as described actually exists - it doesn't.

Secondly on an intellectual or reasoning level it couldn't be lower as it suggests no-one wants to discuss it....well for a start there have been over a hundred posts on this thread alone and if you the 5 minutes to Google you will see the racist misinformation is promulgated profusely throughout the net.

What this actually is is a thread based on a false premise that allows the bootless and unhorsed to air their bigoted, hateful views without a real person humiliating them in front of other real people.

"Bootless and unhorsed" is a fantastic phrase, one that I've never heard before. I'm glad to have pulled something useful from this thread. Thanks!

[cumgranosalum]

On the OP itself, I agree with some earlier posters that it is pure sensationalism. So obviously so that I'd feel foolish refuting it.

On Islam in SEA, and around the world, it is going through a similar reformation to that which Christianity went through a long time ago. The factional extremist disputes in Christianity were often bloody and oppressive, we are seeing a similar picture in Islam and for the same reasons, the reformation of perception. Perception of how much credence to give to specific phrases in any given holy book, and the perception of dominator tribal traits that were cloaked in theology for reasons of power. There is a quiet reformation happening right now, and it is not only on Sunni-Shia lines. It is on the lines of normal working families who love Allah and many of the teachings in religious lore, but who choose to ignore the "by the sword" teachings, just as most Christians have learned to do. They are reforming their religion away from the brutality of military Islamic theocracy, which at its heart was never religious at all, it is a cruel trick, an abuse of faith for reasons of social control. The arrival of digital communication has enabled Muslims to discuss these subjects and find common ground on how faith should fit into modern life. And if you think you're tired of hearing about ISIS and brutal theocrats, thats nothing compared to how tired of it all my Muslim friends are.

A wiser person than me once commented on times of great social change, he compared the societal upheavals to a childbirth. There is screaming and blood, and an observer would think that somebody was dying, but actually it is the very opposite, the birth of a new life. This is the same for religious reformations, it is a re-birth and accompanied by tumultuous signatures.

It is also fascinating how fast the blinkers come on, when this subject is discussed. Suddenly everyone is an angel and the world is filled with peace and joy, except for the group in question. How absurd.

What is interesting is the effect both of those religions had on each other. Besides the obvious Christian influences on Islamice scriptures, there's the moulding of Catholic doctrine that drew parallels from Islam. Convert or die, indulgences (first recorded instance was for Crusaders [née Jihadists) who participated in a holy war to retake original Christian lands), the absence of "old" cities along the Mediterranean coast due to Muslim raiders, the reintroduction of slavery to an area that had banned it under Christian Roman rule with the North African Muslims acting as the primary slave traders, the cruelest Christian Europeans being those who suffered the most under Muslim invaders, etc.

There seems to be a clear divide, to me at least, between Christianity and Islam in regards to their interpretations of the respective holy texts. Islam teaches Dar-al-Hab and Dar-al-Islam are in perpetual war; the Christian holy texts direct violence at certain people at a certain times in the past. Both teach that new passages supersede older ones; the difference is that newer passages in the Koran are much more violent and intolerant than older verses whereas the newer passages in the Bible have more peaceful messages.

The God of the old testament was a psychopath. Not sure how the Koran God could be much worse. Also no idea how anyone can believe the God that did those things and directed his followers to do those things suddenly became a peace loving God that should be followed/worshipped/listened to. Insanity.

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2011/04/good-people-in-bible-its-short-list.html

'specially as they are the same God

[Puwa]

I clicked on this topic expecting the worst, and was pleasantly surprised that many of the first replies were both intelligent and informative. Nothing lasts forever.

The article itself has some historical information, but lacks any coherent thesis or structure. The word "Islamization" however was enough to evoke pretty strong language and feelings.

And here's where the critics of Islam advance their case with dubious logic. We all agree that persons who do bad things-- beheading, etc-- are bad, so the Islamophobes pull a switcheroo and extrapolate from a small number of persons to entire peoples. They start with a truism to establish credibility, then detour into fallacy. Maybe it works on the barstool, or in the imaginary special forces barracks, but in debate, that's faulty thinking, and is amateur night, at best.

Frankly, all three Abrahamic religions are absurd, as is theism in general and monotheism in particular. Arguing the relative merits of Islam and Christianity is like debating who would win a fistfight, Rocky or Rambo.

[cumgranosalum]

I clicked on this topic expecting the worst, and was pleasantly surprised that many of the first replies were both intelligent and informative. Nothing lasts forever.

The article itself has some historical information, but lacks any coherent thesis or structure. The word "Islamization" however was enough to evoke pretty strong language and feelings.

And here's where the critics of Islam advance their case with dubious logic. We all agree that persons who do bad things-- beheading, etc-- are bad, so the Islamophobes pull a switcheroo and extrapolate from a small number of persons to entire peoples. They start with a truism to establish credibility, then detour into fallacy. Maybe it works on the barstool, or in the imaginary special forces barracks, but in debate, that's faulty thinking, and is amateur night, at best.

Frankly, all three Abrahamic religions are absurd, as is theism in general and monotheism in particular. Arguing the relative merits of Islam and Christianity is like debating who would win a fistfight, Rocky or Rambo.

What a concise post.

At this point the thread should be closed as there nothing else to say

[Bulldozer Dawn]

I clicked on this topic expecting the worst, and was pleasantly surprised that many of the first replies were both intelligent and informative. Nothing lasts forever.

The article itself has some historical information, but lacks any coherent thesis or structure. The word "Islamization" however was enough to evoke pretty strong language and feelings.

And here's where the critics of Islam advance their case with dubious logic. We all agree that persons who do bad things-- beheading, etc-- are bad, so the Islamophobes pull a switcheroo and extrapolate from a small number of persons to entire peoples. They start with a truism to establish credibility, then detour into fallacy. Maybe it works on the barstool, or in the imaginary special forces barracks, but in debate, that's faulty thinking, and is amateur night, at best.

Frankly, all three Abrahamic religions are absurd, as is theism in general and monotheism in particular. Arguing the relative merits of Islam and Christianity is like debating who would win a fistfight, Rocky or Rambo.

Epistemology encompasses a good many paths. Some choose a single path to walk upon till days end. Some switch paths. Some refuse to move or grow tired or disenchanted and stop. All of these paths may well lead to single destination. But each of these paths, and the journey thereupon, is unique.

Don't get me started on metaphysics...

[cumgranosalum]

I clicked on this topic expecting the worst, and was pleasantly surprised that many of the first replies were both intelligent and informative. Nothing lasts forever.

The article itself has some historical information, but lacks any coherent thesis or structure. The word "Islamization" however was enough to evoke pretty strong language and feelings.

And here's where the critics of Islam advance their case with dubious logic. We all agree that persons who do bad things-- beheading, etc-- are bad, so the Islamophobes pull a switcheroo and extrapolate from a small number of persons to entire peoples. They start with a truism to establish credibility, then detour into fallacy. Maybe it works on the barstool, or in the imaginary special forces barracks, but in debate, that's faulty thinking, and is amateur night, at best.

Frankly, all three Abrahamic religions are absurd, as is theism in general and monotheism in particular. Arguing the relative merits of Islam and Christianity is like debating who would win a fistfight, Rocky or Rambo.

Epistemology encompasses a good many paths. Some choose a single path to walk upon till days end. Some switch paths. Some refuse to move or grow tired or disenchanted and stop. All of these paths may well lead to single destination. But each of these paths, and the journey thereupon, is unique.

Don't get me started on metaphysics...

Never gonna happen

[zackattack]

If it does Thailand is going down the drain, don't trust them,was 2nd lieutenant in the army and I have never met one with good moral behavior,and they hate the white man

[Bluespunk]

If it does Thailand is going down the drain, don't trust them,was 2nd lieutenant in the army and I have never met one with good moral behavior,and they hate the white man

"My request today is simple. Today. Tomorrow. Next week. Find somebody, anybody, thats different than you. Somebody that has made you feel ill-will or even hateful. Somebody whose life decisions have made you uncomfortable. Somebody who practices a different religion than you do. Somebody who has been lost to addiction. Somebody with a criminal past. Somebody who dresses below you. Somebody with disabilities. Somebody who lives an alternative lifestyle. Somebody without a home.

Somebody that you, until now, would always avoid, always look down on, and always be disgusted by.

Reach your arm out and put it around them.

And then, tell them theyre all right. Tell them they have a friend. Tell them you love them.

If you or I wanna make a change in this world, thats where were gonna be able to do it. Thats where well start.

Every. Single. Time.

Dan Pearce, Single Dad Laughing

[Linzz]

If it does Thailand is going down the drain, don't trust them,was 2nd lieutenant in the army and I have never met one with good moral behavior,and they hate the white man

"My request today is simple. Today. Tomorrow. Next week. Find somebody, anybody, thats different than you. Somebody that has made you feel ill-will or even hateful. Somebody whose life decisions have made you uncomfortable. Somebody who practices a different religion than you do. Somebody who has been lost to addiction. Somebody with a criminal past. Somebody who dresses below you. Somebody with disabilities. Somebody who lives an alternative lifestyle. Somebody without a home.

Somebody that you, until now, would always avoid, always look down on, and always be disgusted by.

Reach your arm out and put it around them.

And then, tell them theyre all right. Tell them they have a friend. Tell them you love them.

If you or I wanna make a change in this world, thats where were gonna be able to do it. Thats where well start.

Every. Single. Time.

Dan Pearce, Single Dad Laughing

Sometimes hard to apply to folks on this forum though I must admit....but you're right, have to try!