Troublemakers in Chiang Mai

[connda]

So, what do you think about the word kɛ̀ɛk. Same-same, but different? I've heard that used in a way that is definitely derogatory.

[amexpat]

So, what do you think about the word kɛ̀ɛk. Same-same, but different? I've heard that used in a way that is definitely derogatory.

I'm not a conservative so I don't have strong opinions on things I know virtually nothing about.

[connda]

In the village I'm called:

Uncle - Luang

Uncle Farang - Luang Farang

Grandad Farang - Daa/Bpuu Farang

Older brother Farang - Pee Farang

Older brother - Pee

Older brother who is a disrobed monk - Pee Naan Farang <Lanna>

It's a descriptor: it sets me apart from the non-Europeans in the village, of which I'm the only one.

Is it racist or derogatory? Not in my wildest dreams. If anything, it make me feel more a part of the village. When I hear _________ Farang, they only talkin' about one guy, and I know who that is!

Then it's time to prick the ears up and start listening. Not everyone knows my Thai language level. If they did, they wouldn't say some of the stuff they do, Lol. Mostly good, or somewhat ignorant and misinformed. Seldom bad.

Edited July 16, 2015 by connda

[connda]

So, what do you think about the word kɛ̀ɛk. Same-same, but different? I've heard that used in a way that is definitely derogatory.

I'm not a conservative so I don't have strong opinions on things I know virtually nothing about.

Excellent. Good for you. You sound like a nice person!

[CMHomeboy78]

In the village I'm called:

Uncle - Luang

Uncle Farang - Luang Farang

Grandad Farang - Daa/Bpuu Farang

Older brother Farang - Pee Farang

Older brother - Pee

Older brother who is a disrobed monk - Pee Naan Farang <Lanna>

It's a descriptor: it sets me apart from the non-Europeans in the village, of which I'm the only one.

Is it racist or derogatory? Not in my wildest dreams. If anything, it make me feel more a part of the village. When I hear _________ Farang, they only talkin' about one guy, and I know who that is!

Then it's time to prick the ears up and start listening. Not everyone knows my Thai language level. If they did, they wouldn't say some of the stuff they do, Lol. Mostly good, or somewhat ignorant and misinformed. Seldom bad.

Spot on, bro.

That has been my experience exactly... although I don't live in a village, it is the same in the Wat Muang Guy/Sanam Golf community where I've spent most of my adult life.

[connda]

Clearly the word has undergone some semantic amelioration and I've NEVER heard the word "farang" used alone as a pejorative.

I have noticed, however, that when I'm among low-class Thais, they call my a farang and it's almost a term of endearment, definitely has no negative connotation. However, it does make me feel a little bit objectified, as if I'm just another white boy (which I am, to them). However, to some of the Hi-So Thais I have worked with, they never use the word "farang", but refer to me exclusively as a "foreigner".

Actually, while I have a problem with the overuse of the term "farang", which as the OP correctly aluded to if used in isolation is not any more offensive than calling someone in the west "Asian" or "Chinese"; however, depending on the context the way in which the term is used, the meaning can change and potentially start to sound derogatory, although in the majority of contexts it isn't.

However, strictly speaking, when we are trying to be inclusive and non-racist, the terms "khon dang chart" or "khon dang prathet", meaning "foreigner" are not actually more politically correct or neutral terms to refer to a westerner. I mean, who's to say that a "farang", a westerner can't be Thai? Logically speaking, if you are being referred to as a foreigner when in fact you could hold Thai nationality, just because you are non-Asian doesn't mean you can't be Thai, even if Thailand is not a multicultural country and doesn't have a policy of immigration that allows for easy transferance of the Thai nationality to foreigners. Therefore, using one of those terms may actually be more offensive than merely being referred to as a farang. Because while you may be a farang, that doesn't preclude you also holding Thai nationality.

Therefore, I'm actually more offended at the use of the term "khon dang prathet" or similar to refer to a westerner, whom the speaker may not even know personally and has no idea about their present status in Thailand being used to pre-emptively make the assumption that they aren't Thai. After all, the use of the terms "khon dang prathet" or "khon dang chart" can have only one meaning - that is a foreigner, a non-Thai person. They are therefore exclusive words and paint a picture of "otherness", in a way more so than just the term "farang". Imagine if we used the term "foreigner" to describe all Asians living in the west, even if they happened to be citizens, even born in our countries. Do you think they would accept this? No, that's why we refer to them as Asians, which implies their heritage and physical appearance associates them with another region of the world, but that doesn't mean they aren't part of our society. I think we could say the same about the term "farang".

But what I don't get is why isn't the most politically correct term, which is "white person" in English or "khon khao" or "khon piu khao" in Thai, the latter also meaning white person, or white skinned person used more often by Thais (or Thai speaking foreigners)? That way, you get a non-offensive politically correct term, which is used to describe someone with light skin but without political or nationalistic connotations? I personally try to use that term as much as possible, because it is not only the most accurate term to refer to us, it's also politically correct and inclusive. Another possibility would be "chao tawandok" or "westerner", although strictly speaking the Thai makes it sound like "a person of western nationality", rather than merely someone originally from the west. Again, in Thai it sounds a little bit too exclusive for my ears. But it's still somewhat better than "khon dang chart" or "khon dang prathet".

If I walked down the line of reasoning much further, my head would explode. The word 'farang' and the KISS principle go hand-in-hand. Think too much about it and you go back to the traffic circle diagram. Tywais post #16.

Edited July 16, 2015 by connda

[connda]

No problem,just call me SIR.

Sir Farang, Mr. Farang, Farang Sir. I'm good with that too!

[connda]

The term racist has been so erringly applied in the last half decade, (with an agenda), that people who use it as a offensive weapon have absolutely NO problem in applying it to words such as farang......

And yes - they are not champions, they are just the opposite = troublemakers ....

Looking for attention. I wonder if they would answer to hae you?

Clearly the word has undergone some semantic amelioration and I've NEVER heard the word "farang" used alone as a pejorative.

I have noticed, however, that when I'm among low-class Thais, they call my a farang and it's almost a term of endearment, definitely has no negative connotation. However, it does make me feel a little bit objectified, as if I'm just another white boy (which I am, to them). However, to some of the Hi-So Thais I have worked with, they never use the word "farang", but refer to me exclusively as a "foreigner".

Contrary to what many want not all Thais speak English.

thanks CMHomeboy78 for clarifying the statement. I have never taken it as an insult and use the word myself. Mind you I am well aware of the fact that the situation and tone of voice can be considered offensive.

You can tell when it's offensive:

Farang khon Kwai

Farang Kee Nok

But in my experience, that sort of garbage mouthed stuff tends to come out of kid's mouths. If I hear it and the parents are around, I'll ask them a question inquiring where the kid learned his respect for elders from. The reaction you get when Thai parents lose face over a comment from their children has never been direct toward me. Now the kid....different story. And I don't really blame it on the parent. I was a disrespectful little twerp when I was younger. It was nothing I learned from my parents, it was what I learned on the playground with other kids.

Edited July 16, 2015 by connda

[connda]

Being and being called a 'farang' in Thailand has never bothered me in the least. Nor did being and being called a 'gaijin' in Japan.

I have very little experience of Japan, but I am interested in it.

My understanding of the word 'gaijin' is that it is basically negative, unlike 'farang'.

Is that true?

That is not my understanding of the word, based on my experience of living in Japan close to fifteen years altogether, of having had and still having many Japanese friends and being now a fluent speaker and reader of Japanese.

But that does not stop, as others have pointed out here, troublemakers from taking offence.

A word is only offensive if there is someone who is offended. If you go back to my analogy of the grade school saying: "Sticks and stone may break my bones, but names will never hurt me.", you start to understand that at least in my generation, most people could just shrug it off. My best friend and I used to just brutalize each other with insults. It was a game, and a fun one at that. Wow, the things I said about his mom. Of course, his comments about my mom and the 7th Fleet were equally a low blow. Ahhh them were the days, may God rest his soul. 41 years old and a heart attack. "See what happens when ya talk bad about my mom, Ski?" Ha ha ha. Love ya and miss ya my brother.

[connda]

I admit to being a farang, and I don't mind limited use of the word. Like yesterday, when the Songtaew driver told me "Farang Som-sip," I simply said "cannot" and that was the end of it. Never heard the word in the bank or dentist office, it does seem to be overused by the foot shuffling class of Thais and it's just repetitive and annoying. Very young kids will often repeat it over and over, like they are name calling, but you know where they learned to do that. Many of the Thai parents haven't realized that teaching their kids to speak is only half the battle; you need to teach them to shut up, too. I generally just vote with my wallet, if they are being rude, and to me that is using the word "farang" more than a couple of times in a brief encounter. I was in a small restaurant, getting some take-away, right next door to my condo, and the lady standing there must have said "farang" eight times. I didn't like the tone, even though I really didn't know what she was saying. I did know that the food wasn't good enough to have to listen to an idiot babble for five minutes. I haven't been back since, and I could just as easily been an almost daily customer.

Just use the word "mia chow" about 8 time while casting a glance in her direction occasionally.

[connda]

Persian language -

Farang = European

Thai bastardisation -

Guava - Ton Farang ( white flesh ).

If we can agree on anything - can we agree that the French aspect has been debunked?

No

Farang = all men and women with white skin.

Try again...

Does that apply to Thai folk who have bleached skin, never step out in the sun, and have a great cosmetic surgeon? They're 'farang' too? Really. Learn something new every day. We need some white skinned farang emoticons. George! Can ya make that happen for us please!!!

[FolkGuitar]

I was in a small restaurant, getting some take-away, right next door to my condo, and the lady standing there must have said "farang" eight times. I didn't like the tone, even though I really didn't know what she was saying. I did know that the food wasn't good enough to have to listen to an idiot babble for five minutes. I haven't been back since, and I could just as easily been an almost daily customer.

She may well have been saying how much she appreciates all the business the local farang give her, that the farang in the condo next door are some of her best customers and she hopes more farang will stop by in the future.

If you didn't know what she was saying, what makes your think she was an idiot? That 'babble' is the language of the country in which you are living.

[connda]

I was in a small restaurant, getting some take-away, right next door to my condo, and the lady standing there must have said "farang" eight times. I didn't like the tone, even though I really didn't know what she was saying. I did know that the food wasn't good enough to have to listen to an idiot babble for five minutes. I haven't been back since, and I could just as easily been an almost daily customer.

She may well have been saying how much she appreciates all the business the local farang give her, that the farang in the condo next door are some of her best customers and she hopes more farang will stop by in the future.

If you didn't know what she was saying, what makes your think she was an idiot? That 'babble' is the language of the country in which you are living.

Good point. If you live here, you should strive for an understanding of the Thai language at least to a point to where to can understand the 'gist' of the conversation.

[northernjohn]

When I arrived in LOS, I too was dissatisfied with the use of the word farang. Now, it has no effect upon me. From my reading, farang alludes to foreigners NOT of Asian heritage eg excludes Chinese, Koran & Japanese.

Yes, I am a foreigner.

In my natives, Japanese are called Japs; English are called Poms; New Zealanders are called Kiwis. Who cares - not me.

That sounds typical... it is usually the newcomers who take offence at the word. Live among Thais for a while and you learn that they all use it with no offence meant.

I think it says something about the type of people you're living among if they consider it polite to refer to others as farangs, Japs, Poms and Kiwis. At best these terms are slang and certainly not the the mark of educated, polite people. What about slant-eyes, gooks, spooks, and the "n" word? Use those words often enough and soon they'll be considered OK, too, I guess.

I am from the old school so I still use all these words including the n word,what is wrong with neanderthal.

Or Yank or Canuck. In fact their is a major league hockey team called the Canucks. Also a major league baseball team called the Yankees.

[northernjohn]

Being and being called a 'farang' in Thailand has never bothered me in the least. Nor did being and being called a 'gaijin' in Japan.

I have very little experience of Japan, but I am interested in it.

My understanding of the word 'gaijin' is that it is basically negative, unlike 'farang'.

Is that true?

That is not my understanding of the word, based on my experience of living in Japan close to fifteen years altogether, of having had and still having many Japanese friends and being now a fluent speaker and reader of Japanese.

But that does not stop, as others have pointed out here, troublemakers from taking offence.

A word is only offensive if there is someone who is offended. If you go back to my analogy of the grade school saying: "Sticks and stone may break my bones, but names will never hurt me.", you start to understand that at least in my generation, most people could just shrug it off. My best friend and I used to just brutalize each other with insults. It was a game, and a fun one at that. Wow, the things I said about his mom. Of course, his comments about my mom and the 7th Fleet were equally a low blow. Ahhh them were the days, may God rest his soul. 41 years old and a heart attack. "See what happens when ya talk bad about my mom, Ski?" Ha ha ha. Love ya and miss ya my brother.

I have two friends and that is common amongst us to put the other one down. If we don't the other two will think there is some thing wrong with us. They went to school together and I met them in the late 60s. We never talk top others that way.

[CMKiwi]

During my time in the military, we referred to Thai women as LBFMs. I won't expound on that. Lol Racist? Word in the wind imho.

So does the word 'farang' stimulate feelings of racial indignation in my mind? Not in the least. It just a word; wind in the air

But I'm not a liberal either, so I still hang with what I learned in my conservative grade school: "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me." How true, how true.

During my military stint and while based in Singapore we added PBR to the LBFM phrase..... that being Powered By Rice. Not that I trialled/used the LBFM phrase as I was a loyal and married man at that stage of my life!

And yes I agree with your other post about the KISS principle. Sometimes people just make things too complicated for their own good.

As Ive said in another post, I get together with other farangs once a week over a few beers. We too take the piss out of each other but its nothing to be taken personally.....just general banter. Sure sometimes one of the group may get an extra haranguing (Is that a word?) but normally its because they have done something really stupid in the last week (Or got caught), but what goes around normally comes around).

If I was really offended by the term farang then Id be sure to learn of an equivalent Thai word to use in response when its aimed at me..... however it doesnt bother me so no harm done.

[Thailand]

This is definitely a thread to read if you are having trouble falling asleep.

[Saan]

The Franks were originally Germanic tribes that conquered Gaul and most of western Europe. The term Frank was used in the Middle Ages when referring to western Europeans which makes the term farang pretty accurate.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Saan

[CMHomeboy78]

The Franks were originally Germanic tribes that conquered Gaul and most of western Europe. The term Frank was used in the Middle Ages when referring to western Europeans which makes the term farang pretty accurate.

That's the way I've always understood it.

The Franks were called 'farangi' by the Persians who transmitted the word to Siam and elsewhere prior to the arrival of the Portuguese at the Ayudhya court of King Rama T'ibodhi II in 1511.

I believe that to be the consensus among historians; although there will always be dissenting views.

The Royal Chronicles of Ayutthaya [The Siam Society 2000], edited by the distinguished historian David Wyatt, might have references to the role played by Persians in Siam before the coming of Europeans.

By the mid-17th century they were in positions of power at court, also dominating foreign trade as Shah Bandars of the seaports. During the reign of King Narai they were gradually replaced by European adventurers - notably Constintine Phaulcon and Siamese White among many others. This ultimately led to the Revolution of 1688 and the massacre of Europeans that followed it.

[harrry]

It just comes from a way to make it easy to denote a person in one word.....That farang over there.

I guess in the US one could not say in one word that gentleman over there in the group. The one who has black hair, brown eyes and dark skin.

[chuang]

Probably some preferred to be called " pale face "