Troublemakers in Chiang Mai

[CMHomeboy78]

The ongoing controversy as to whether or not the term "farang" is a racial insult surfaces as an off-topic digression on the occasional thread. For the visitor and short-term resident the subject would be trivial and of not much importance. However, for those of us who live here among Thais and interact with them on a daily basis the question is far more important.

The etymology of the word becomes unambiguous if you study the sources: it comes from the Farsi "farangi", as used by the Persians who were established at the Ayudhya court when the Europeans arrived on the scene. The first contact on record was a diplomatic mission in 1511 sent by Afonso D'Albuquerque, Viceroy of Portuguese India [Goa], then residing in the recently captured port of Malacca.

Francophiles often claim "Francaise" as the origin of the word. That can almost certainly be discounted because the French didn't arrive in substantial numbers until the reign of King Narai in the mid-17th century, well over a hundred years after the Portuguese.

The word "farangi" became part of the Thai language as "farang". There is no historical source - as far as I know - that uses the term in a derogatory way. It was, and is, a name for Europeans and has come to include the descendents of Europeans from the former colonies. That's not just my opinion, it is the consensus among historians who have written on the subject.

Obviously, the meaning of words often change with time. The proof that the implications of the word "farang" have not changed is the fact that it is still used by Thais of all classes as a description for Europeans and people of European descent in a completely neutral and non-judgemental way. There are many insulting terms in the Thai language for farangs that include the word - but always in conjunction - never alone.

What is the motive for these hypersensitive busybodies to turn a totally inoffensive word into an insulting racial epithet? If you don't like being called a farang, then what would you prefer? Kohn dtahng pra-tet? That would lump you in with the hordes of every continent on earth.

The word farang is useful. It is specific, easy to spell, easy to pronounce... OK, farang/falang. Get your tongue to vibrate on the raw reu-uh and make a good example of yourself. Again, what would you rather be called? Maybe some of those who protest so loudly against "farang" have a subconscious desire to go back to the days when terms of address like sahib and bwana were used in many parts of the world.

Aren't there enough contentious issues between Thais and farangs already? Creating a situation where offence is taken when none is intended is - almost by definition - the hallmark of a troublemaker.

Hence the title of the topic.

[NeverSure]

LOL.

[pgrahmm]

The term racist has been so erringly applied in the last half decade, (with an agenda), that people who use it as a offensive weapon have absolutely NO problem in applying it to words such as farang......

And yes - they are not champions, they are just the opposite = troublemakers ....

[jackspade]

Clearly the word has undergone some semantic amelioration and I've NEVER heard the word "farang" used alone as a pejorative.

I have noticed, however, that when I'm among low-class Thais, they call my a farang and it's almost a term of endearment, definitely has no negative connotation. However, it does make me feel a little bit objectified, as if I'm just another white boy (which I am, to them). However, to some of the Hi-So Thais I have worked with, they never use the word "farang", but refer to me exclusively as a "foreigner".

Edited July 16, 2015 by jackspade

[CMHomeboy78]

Clearly the word has undergone some semantic amelioration and I've NEVER heard the word "farang" used alone as a pejorative.

I have noticed, however, that when I'm among low-class Thais, they call my a farang and it's almost a term of endearment, definitely has no negative connotation. However, it does make me feel a little bit objectified, as if I'm just another white boy (which I am, to them). However, to some of the Hi-So Thais I have worked with, they never use the word "farang", but refer to me exclusively as a "foreigner".

Both good points and I've noticed the same thing.

However, it is far from being the "F-word" among any class of people here.

[arunsakda]

I'm gonna wear one of these old t-shirts and check the reaction.

[Rasseru]

Being and being called a 'farang' in Thailand has never bothered me in the least. Nor did being and being called a 'gaijin' in Japan.

[CMHomeboy78]

Being and being called a 'farang' in Thailand has never bothered me in the least. Nor did being and being called a 'gaijin' in Japan.

I have very little experience of Japan, but I am interested in it.

My understanding of the word 'gaijin' is that it is basically negative, unlike 'farang'.

Is that true?

[FolkGuitar]

Being and being called a 'farang' in Thailand has never bothered me in the least. Nor did being and being called a 'gaijin' in Japan.

While we were in Japan, we knew a few westerners who objected to the term 'gaijin,' and insisted upon being called 'gaikokujin,' the more formal term for foreigners. They were troublemakers too...

[hml367]

Being and being called a 'farang' in Thailand has never bothered me in the least. Nor did being and being called a 'gaijin' in Japan.

While we were in Japan, we knew a few westerners who objected to the term 'gaijin,' and insisted upon being called 'gaikokujin,' the more formal term for foreigners. They were troublemakers too...

This echos my experience with Japan and Japanese as far as gaijin.

[fang37]

When I arrived in LOS, I too was dissatisfied with the use of the word farang. Now, it has no effect upon me. From my reading, farang alludes to foreigners NOT of Asian heritage eg excludes Chinese, Koran & Japanese.

Yes, I am a foreigner.

In my natives, Japanese are called Japs; English are called Poms; New Zealanders are called Kiwis. Who cares - not me.

[CMHomeboy78]

Being and being called a 'farang' in Thailand has never bothered me in the least. Nor did being and being called a 'gaijin' in Japan.

While we were in Japan, we knew a few westerners who objected to the term 'gaijin,' and insisted upon being called 'gaikokujin,' the more formal term for foreigners. They were troublemakers too...

If your pervious posts are anything to go by, you seem to be well-informed about Japan.

Could you make any comparisons between 'gaijin' and farang,?

Specifically, what is the etymology of the Japanese word?

Am I mistaken in assuming that it was, and is, somewhat demeaning?

Edited July 16, 2015 by CMHomeboy78

[daoyai]

I'm gonna wear one of these old t-shirts and check the reaction.

While singing " I wanna know what love is... I want you to show meeee"

[CMHomeboy78]

When I arrived in LOS, I too was dissatisfied with the use of the word farang. Now, it has no effect upon me. From my reading, farang alludes to foreigners NOT of Asian heritage eg excludes Chinese, Koran & Japanese.

Yes, I am a foreigner.

In my natives, Japanese are called Japs; English are called Poms; New Zealanders are called Kiwis. Who cares - not me.

That sounds typical... it is usually the newcomers who take offence at the word. Live among Thais for a while and you learn that they all use it with no offence meant.

[worgeordie]

Not another Farang thread !, we have already just had one.

regards Worgeordie

[steven100]

fascinating ......

[Tywais]

Not another Farang thread !, we have already just had one.

regards Worgeordie

Actually we didn't. We had a topic that was high jacked into one though.

Not sure how long this one will last based on the history of similar topics. They usually look like this.

//edit - a baiting post and reply removed.

[Tomtomtom69]

Clearly the word has undergone some semantic amelioration and I've NEVER heard the word "farang" used alone as a pejorative.

I have noticed, however, that when I'm among low-class Thais, they call my a farang and it's almost a term of endearment, definitely has no negative connotation. However, it does make me feel a little bit objectified, as if I'm just another white boy (which I am, to them). However, to some of the Hi-So Thais I have worked with, they never use the word "farang", but refer to me exclusively as a "foreigner".

Actually, while I have a problem with the overuse of the term "farang", which as the OP correctly aluded to if used in isolation is not any more offensive than calling someone in the west "Asian" or "Chinese"; however, depending on the context the way in which the term is used, the meaning can change and potentially start to sound derogatory, although in the majority of contexts it isn't.

However, strictly speaking, when we are trying to be inclusive and non-racist, the terms "khon dang chart" or "khon dang prathet", meaning "foreigner" are not actually more politically correct or neutral terms to refer to a westerner. I mean, who's to say that a "farang", a westerner can't be Thai? Logically speaking, if you are being referred to as a foreigner when in fact you could hold Thai nationality, just because you are non-Asian doesn't mean you can't be Thai, even if Thailand is not a multicultural country and doesn't have a policy of immigration that allows for easy transferance of the Thai nationality to foreigners. Therefore, using one of those terms may actually be more offensive than merely being referred to as a farang. Because while you may be a farang, that doesn't preclude you also holding Thai nationality.

Therefore, I'm actually more offended at the use of the term "khon dang prathet" or similar to refer to a westerner, whom the speaker may not even know personally and has no idea about their present status in Thailand being used to pre-emptively make the assumption that they aren't Thai. After all, the use of the terms "khon dang prathet" or "khon dang chart" can have only one meaning - that is a foreigner, a non-Thai person. They are therefore exclusive words and paint a picture of "otherness", in a way more so than just the term "farang". Imagine if we used the term "foreigner" to describe all Asians living in the west, even if they happened to be citizens, even born in our countries. Do you think they would accept this? No, that's why we refer to them as Asians, which implies their heritage and physical appearance associates them with another region of the world, but that doesn't mean they aren't part of our society. I think we could say the same about the term "farang".

But what I don't get is why isn't the most politically correct term, which is "white person" in English or "khon khao" or "khon piu khao" in Thai, the latter also meaning white person, or white skinned person used more often by Thais (or Thai speaking foreigners)? That way, you get a non-offensive politically correct term, which is used to describe someone with light skin but without political or nationalistic connotations? I personally try to use that term as much as possible, because it is not only the most accurate term to refer to us, it's also politically correct and inclusive. Another possibility would be "chao tawandok" or "westerner", although strictly speaking the Thai makes it sound like "a person of western nationality", rather than merely someone originally from the west. Again, in Thai it sounds a little bit too exclusive for my ears. But it's still somewhat better than "khon dang chart" or "khon dang prathet".

[Saan]

Being and being called a 'farang' in Thailand has never bothered me in the least. Nor did being and being called a 'gaijin' in Japan.

Might as well throw the Cantonese expression gwai lo into the equation. I took no offence there either.

So this falang, gaijin, gwai lo couldn't give a stuff. I might even let you get away with calling me an Aussie. But I do baulk when a Yank calls me a Pom as occasionally happens.

[MrBrad]

If you can't fight them, join them.

http://www.cafepress.com/+farang+gifts

[Tomtomtom69]

1st

The origin of the word isn't important, lots of historically legit words are hijacked into insults.

2nd

If it's a foreigner using the Thai word, why are they doing it? If they speak Thai, let's have the entire conversation in Thai. Whole conversation in one single language please.

3rd

If I find a word insulting, I don't want it used on me, if you really must use it, f*&% off and talk to someone else.

4th

Why do you only want to aim your words at one race, unless you are a racist bigot. Speak to all foreigners equally.

Fully agree with your points.

Although as I've stated in my reply to another poster earlier, I am of the opinion that the word "farang" is not necessarily offensive if used in isolation and not too excessively, similar to the use of the word "Asian" to describe an Asian person living in, or visiting the west. However, there is a certain limit in which the word can be used otherwise it does start to sound offensive and discriminatory.

Like in the USA, I would recommend if we do need to adopt words to describe people of different racial origins, let's use the terms "black", "white", "Asian" etc. in Thai, which are respectively, "dam", "khao" and "Aesian" each preceded by the polite moniker "khon", if it is necessary to do so.

But it would be even better to find out, if a Thai knows that their neighbors are say, American, why are they still referred to as "farangs"? Even more baffingly, if the neighborhood is not only home to one set of "farangs", but every third or fourth property is home to said "farangs"? How do they distinguish between them? I point this out because it just so happens that in my neighborhood within my moo baan, one of our direct neighbors is an American family with 4 children, while two houses down, lives a westerner with a Thai wife and child, while on the other street parallel to mine lives a young Canadian, and near him an older German! Both have Thai wives or girlfriends. And yet, even my own girlfriend generally continues to refer to our American neighbors as the "farangs", despite the fact she knows full well of all the other westerners who live within 50 m of us and each other. And there are other familiar western faces also living within the moo baan, a little further away.

So semantics aside, this is one case where the term "farang" would be inappropriate, unless used by someone who just noticed there was a westerner or group of westerners living in one home, but once it becomes clear to that person that there are multiple, unrelated "farangs" around, there should be other, more descriptive and appropriate words used to differentiate between the different residents. Nationality would be one way of doing so, besides, Thais are quite gossipy, so should be able to figure out who comes from where, even if they are generally shy, private people and don't meddle in the affairs of their neighbors much. But all it takes is one neighbor whom they know to fill them in on their other neighbors and that's how they find out about them.

However, Thais are often quick to use the term "farang" and stick with it, which in my opinion makes me a bit uneasy because often they persist in using it as an adjective to describe the west or even just foreign countries, yet chances are that not only are the countries referred to not homogenous like Thailand is, but only 10% of the Earth's population consists of people of western, European origin and declining (which begs the question, does the term "farang" ever refer to more than just westerners?)

Therefore if we assume that "farangs" can only ever refer to westerners, it's almost as if Thais are living in the twilight zone with their blinkers on, looking at the world in a completely wrong context. In the vast majority of cases, Thais, just like us westerners will be doing business, visiting, seeing people who are Asian, African, anything but white - white people are only ever going to be a minority in most encounters.

So with that in mind, I find it strange that just yesterday I was reading a Facebook thread about a Thai online platform that promotes the sale of goods to foreigners as stating: "khai hai farang", or "sell to farangs"...as if "farangs" were the only foreigners in the world, and as if they were the only ones likely to buy Thai products. Reality check people - it's far more likely these guys will be selling to other Asians and very few "farang", if any are going to be buying their products. So in this context, the use of the term "khon dang chart" or "khon dang prathet" would have been far better and more inclusive - because unlike in my previous example, we are talking about people living outside of Thailand, therefore foreigners. Because unless all foreigners are "farangs", which they are clearly not, it's only proper to use a more inclusive term that refers to all foreigners equally.

[magnacarta]

No problem,just call me SIR.

[Tomtomtom69]

One more thing I'd like to point out, to summarize my posts, particularly my first one is that the terms "farang" and "khon dang prathet" or "khon dang chart" are mutually exclusive. Unless you know the person you are referring to, you can't just refer to someone as a "foreigner" instead of as a "westerner" and incorrectly state that the term "khon dang prathet" is the polite form of "farang". It isn't. They are two completely different things.

A "farang", irrespective of whether it can have negative connotations or not is supposed to refer to a person of western or European, "white" origin, while a foreigner could refer to anyone from any country who is not Thai.

So with that in mind, a speaker needs to carefully consider the context to choose the appropriate term. Whether they are speaking English or Thai. But I suspect that in a country where many locals can't even distinguish between the meanings of "cheau sai" (ethnicity) and "cheau chart" or "san chart", both meaning nationality, I suspect this will be harder than it sounds.

[northernjohn]

The term racist has been so erringly applied in the last half decade, (with an agenda), that people who use it as a offensive weapon have absolutely NO problem in applying it to words such as farang......

And yes - they are not champions, they are just the opposite = troublemakers ....

Looking for attention. I wonder if they would answer to hae you?

Clearly the word has undergone some semantic amelioration and I've NEVER heard the word "farang" used alone as a pejorative.

I have noticed, however, that when I'm among low-class Thais, they call my a farang and it's almost a term of endearment, definitely has no negative connotation. However, it does make me feel a little bit objectified, as if I'm just another white boy (which I am, to them). However, to some of the Hi-So Thais I have worked with, they never use the word "farang", but refer to me exclusively as a "foreigner".

Contrary to what many want not all Thais speak English.

thanks CMHomeboy78 for clarifying the statement. I have never taken it as an insult and use the word myself. Mind you I am well aware of the fact that the situation and tone of voice can be considered offensive.

Edited July 16, 2015 by northernjohn

[CMHomeboy78]

The term racist has been so erringly applied in the last half decade, (with an agenda), that people who use it as a offensive weapon have absolutely NO problem in applying it to words such as farang......

And yes - they are not champions, they are just the opposite = troublemakers ....

Looking for attention. I wonder if they would answer to hae you?

Clearly the word has undergone some semantic amelioration and I've NEVER heard the word "farang" used alone as a pejorative.

I have noticed, however, that when I'm among low-class Thais, they call my a farang and it's almost a term of endearment, definitely has no negative connotation. However, it does make me feel a little bit objectified, as if I'm just another white boy (which I am, to them). However, to some of the Hi-So Thais I have worked with, they never use the word "farang", but refer to me exclusively as a "foreigner".

Contrary to what many want not all Thais speak English.

thanks CMHomeboy78 for clarifying the statement. I have never taken it as an insult and use the word myself. Mind you I am well aware of the fact that the situation and tone of voice can be considered offensive.

Yes of course, tone of voice can make the word offensive... but that's true of any word, isn't it?

Glad you don't consider it an insult when used as it usually is.

[Rasseru]

Being and being called a 'farang' in Thailand has never bothered me in the least. Nor did being and being called a 'gaijin' in Japan.

I have very little experience of Japan, but I am interested in it.

My understanding of the word 'gaijin' is that it is basically negative, unlike 'farang'.

Is that true?

That is not my understanding of the word, based on my experience of living in Japan close to fifteen years altogether, of having had and still having many Japanese friends and being now a fluent speaker and reader of Japanese.

But that does not stop, as others have pointed out here, troublemakers from taking offence.

[CMHomeboy78]

Being and being called a 'farang' in Thailand has never bothered me in the least. Nor did being and being called a 'gaijin' in Japan.

I have very little experience of Japan, but I am interested in it.

My understanding of the word 'gaijin' is that it is basically negative, unlike 'farang'.

Is that true?

That is not my understanding of the word, based on my experience of living in Japan close to fifteen years altogether, of having had and still having many Japanese friends and being now a fluent speaker and reader of Japanese.

But that does not stop, as others have pointed out here, troublemakers from taking offence.

Thanks for that.

Do you have any idea of the origin of the word 'gaijin'?

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup, Esteemed Fellow Farangs, Khon Thai, and citizens of other countries,

For me, the debate about whether "Farang" is inherently pejorative is not particularly interesting for the following reasons:

0. it's too often used in ThaiVisa forums by trolls to divert threads into ad hominem mosh-pits

1. almost any word, or phrase, can be used as an insult, many words can be used as a racial epithet. Ever heard somebody use "you !" as a slur ?

2. given a tonal language where minute shifts of intonation can radically alter the meaning of a word, distinguishing homophones is very difficult if you are not a native speaker, or one of the very rare foreigners here who really master Thai. Example: "Khun" with rising tone is one of the Krom (the formal system of Royal Rank), definitely not the same as the everyday "Khun" you and I hear.

3. given the modal emphasis on "apparent formal politeness" in public social discourse in Thai culture, it may be even more difficult to recognize pejorative sub-text .... unless the speaker is using the distinct very insulting first-person, second-person pronouns ... and, if they are using those with you, you will know you are really being insulted !

4. meanings of words change as languages evolve (by "evolve" I don't necessarily mean "improve"). See Footnote [1]

5. I beg to differ with the OP here:

a. if you are going to adopt the "posture" of scholarship, to imply you are familiar with primary sources, imho you need to at least mention what your sources are.

b. general terms for Romans (Rum), far-northern Europeans (Rus), and western Europeans (Franks) were known in the Arab world even before the crusades. See the travel-journals of Ibn Khaldun (1332 – 1406) for example; by the way, it's a great read. Some of you may know the movie "13th. Warrior" is a fictional portrayal of Ibn Khaldun's visit to the Land of the Rus.

c. the major Persian presence here came a century after the time of the Portuguese involvement in the early 16th. century C.E. ref.: Ayutthaya: Venice of the East by Derick Garnier and Narisa Chakrabongse ... of course, that does not exclude the possibility of earlier contact and language transmission.

5. there are a variety of scholarly opinions on the origins of "Farang," and many disagreements. while the major consensus may be that transmission was by Arab-world traders based on experience of European invaders ("Franks") during the crusades, there are many other hypotheses.

I will continue to use the word "Farang" to mean "honored guest"

cheers, ~o:37;

[1] it is interesting to speculate if the definitely pejorative modern Thai second-person singular pronoun is related (not just a homophone) to what, in the times of the great central Thai colonial empire of Ayuthya was the term for the lowest social-economic class. ref.: "The Ayutthya Chronicles" ... if you can "hang in there" with a synoptic compilation that interpolates many sources, the "good parts" will reward your study.

Edited July 16, 2015 by orang37

[cmth]

I was always referred to as "gringo" while in South America. No bad intentions from the locals and no offence taken by me. If you are like most westerners, a word only becomes offensive once the media tells you it is.

[NancyL]

When I arrived in LOS, I too was dissatisfied with the use of the word farang. Now, it has no effect upon me. From my reading, farang alludes to foreigners NOT of Asian heritage eg excludes Chinese, Koran & Japanese.

Yes, I am a foreigner.

In my natives, Japanese are called Japs; English are called Poms; New Zealanders are called Kiwis. Who cares - not me.

That sounds typical... it is usually the newcomers who take offence at the word. Live among Thais for a while and you learn that they all use it with no offence meant.

I think it says something about the type of people you're living among if they consider it polite to refer to others as farangs, Japs, Poms and Kiwis. At best these terms are slang and certainly not the the mark of educated, polite people. What about slant-eyes, gooks, spooks, and the "n" word? Use those words often enough and soon they'll be considered OK, too, I guess.