Thailand To Seize Thaksin's Assets

[Chiangmai Cheers]

If someone is caught dealing drugs, their house, land, car and property are taken by the Government. It matters not if it is their first or thousandth time dealing, everything they own is taken, even that which was gained legally. Perhaps the same principle should apply to Thaksin.

[The Snark]

PEOPLE! SHEESH!!

All this speculation, innuendo, and idle gossip is great for ranting and getting it out of your system, but PLEASE! Get real!

Everyone deserves their day in court. What nobody wants is more law breaking, rule bending, and sneaky underhanded dealing. If Thaksin has committed crimes, the leaders of the coup seem obviously intent to let due process of the law handle it, fairly and properly. Wouldn't that be better than sinking the T tugboat through alledged actions like T himself has done?

Now, if T and or family has trucked over certain amount of money or valuables in under a given time out of the country, that is a violation of the law. Check with the legal experts as to the limitations. That is fine. Nobody is going to nail down and be able to reclaim all of the alledged ill gotten gains. The criminal acts, properly investigated and prosecuted, are the real purpose here. Anything else is being vindictive.

Please take note: The coup leaders left the criminal courts in place. The entire legal system is alive and well. The King has placed his confidence in the courts. The coup leaders have cleaned up the police department. Obviously, they want the legal system to continue functioning. As far as coups go, this is very significant. Please take this into account before persecuting people.

Edited September 23, 2006 by The Snark

[britmaveric]

Good luck I expect most of its safely out of the country in off shore accounts.

[The Snark]

Good luck I expect most of its safely out of the country in off shore accounts.

I mean no disrespect to the poster I quote here, but this is exactly what we do not need. Idle speculation.

The profits from the Shin sales are still in Thai banks and, as I understand it, cannot be moved at this time. So what if he has moved billions off shore? What is the point?

[jltheart]

Just a word for his defense. I saw him once buy a hot dog at 7-11 and it looked like a fair deal to me. Hmm but i could not see his right hand . Maybe Im wrong.

[TaxinMeter]

Sure they will find his wealth was ill-gotten, anything else would be a major embarrassement. May I recommend the wikipedia articles on Thaksin and the other protagonists of the current situation. It will make it clear what this great country has gotten into.

[Martin]

This whole matter will need to be handled very carefully so that justice is seen to have prevailed, both in the eyes of those who are inured in Thai culture, those who are inured in Sino-Thai culture, and on the international scene. There is a lot of social cohesion and international standing riding on this matter being handled properly.

But I have confidence in the Thais' abilities to stand at the interface of West and East. After all, they have been there for quite a while.

Asia Cheese finished post #89 with:

"It really is the apples-and-bananas bit: many farangs are prone to measure things in cm or inches, while in fact (locally) it's long or short...!"

That reminded me of that superb example of diplomacy by a Don Muang air traffic controller.

She heard a request for a time check and asked the aircraft to say which airline it belonged to.

The captain asked what that had to do with what time it was, and she replied that it was her job to help aircrew by putting their minds at rest, if at all possible.

So, if he was in command of the inbound Singapore Airlines flight, she could assure him that it was 10:42 precisely, and he was exactly on schedule to land on within the margin of plus or minus thirty seconds that his employers permitted him.

But if he was in command of the inbound Air France flight, she could tell him it was mid-morning, and assure him that he would arrive in good time for lunch.

And, if he was in command of the outbound Air Asia flight to Udon Thani, she could assure him that: "Yes, it is Tuesday".

[apalink_thailand]

You continue to think that it's only a "little corruption", like a bad thai tradition, a form of "exotism".

No. With Thaksin, and for the first time in the modern history of this country, corruption has reached an industrial level.

We are going to be surprised in the weeks to come... Now that officials can really conduct investigations.

Pongsak (Minister transport), Somchai.... all of them are dirty. Sisters, wife, children, cousins, step brothers of Thaksin... All of them will feel the shame of the caught thieves.

NCCC must do it swiftly. To set an example, a precedent. So future candidates will think twice.

Excuse me, but do you have EVIDENCE of all this wide spread corruption? Can you please give some examples together with proof, that Toxin benefitted illegally? Indistrial level corruption? Name it please. Otherwise, keep quiet.

[Ricardo]

Are they Brits? Perhaps, and it's true that the forum is over-represented with the scummier kind of PattayaBrit (fat,unsuccesful, indifferently educated ex-sex tourists now mainly visa runners saddled with a Thai "family" and often with a snub nosed ex hooker as a "wife").These people rage at Thaksin and indeed at any success or wealth legitimately aquired to compensate for their own depressing lifestyle and non-achievement.Not sure however whether the anti-wealth prejudice is reflected among Brits at home, not to the same extent anyway since Thatcher.

In any case whatever Thaksin's faults - and they are many and I'm glad he's gone-it's hard to sustain the charge his wealth was acquired illegitimately.Indeed by the standards of his predecessors he is quite clean in that respect.

I thought that racist remarks, and flaming, were against Forum rules ?

Oh, and I don't agree, that DL acquired his wealth legitimately. Although I am fat, UK-educated and have an adorable wife & kids who hold Thai nationality. Of which I'm very proud.

[chonabot]

It seems that this thread is going a little awry. Please stay within the forum guidelines and try not to deviate from the subject matter.

Chon

BANGKOK: -- The Council for Democratic Reform (CDR) yesterday issued an announcement ordering the Information and Communications Technology (ICT) Ministry to control the distribution of all information media deemed harmful to the provisional military council now in control of the country. It said the ministry must control, stop, block and destroy any information in the form of articles, statements, wording of any sort, that are published and sent through any media that would be harmful to democratic reform.

However, a source at the ICT Ministry said that so far it had not blocked any website known to support the former regime, adding that some had already shut themselves down temporarily.

--TNA 2006-09-21

NOTE TO OUR MEMBERS:

All media was today ordered by ICT to exercise censorship of any news critical of the coup-makers and the new military regime. Offenders face up to six months in jail, a fine of up to Bt10,000, or both.

This also prohibit Thaivisa to publish such content. We kindly ask our members to refrain from posting sensitive political content. We reserve the rights to delete content that could be dangerous for the operation of our website. We have to do a bit of self-censorship here so we don't get into trouble. Thanks for your understanding.

/Admin

[John K]

I think Thaksin has shown us how to do this, just suddenly swoop down and stomp all over them. So certainly that is how he must want to be treated. I would expect nothing less.

As far as money off shore, I think the USA has a lot of pull now in locking down bank accounts worldwide after 9-11. All wire transfers must in some way go to the USA, so its play or pay. The key is identifying the accounts.

[Hermano Lobo]

The process now behind the scenes is to dismantle Toxin's web of influence and part of this will be the abolition of TRT. Toxin is a classic case of an overreacher (play:Edward II). It was getting like the President Marcos era. All ruling elites must seek to at least pay lip service to represent wider society. By flogging off his assets and finessing the avoidance of taxes, it was clear that the only purpose of his rule was self and own family. He was and remains a risk to any semblance of a stable Thai society. Democracy? The fight over the appointment of electoral commisioners and no-taxin's efforts to put in his placemen at Forces level was a creeping attempt at his own dictatorship. Once his wealth and network has been neutralised and charges brought against him, then the situation will stabilise, but until then watch this space. Longer-term we all know that he is waiting for a VIP to not be a part of the scene. For those who have moved they are determined that he will not have the opportunity to bounce back. Critical support for the yellow pieces in this chess game.

Yoshiwara-

These are my fears as well. Thaksin and his cronies will not give up that easily.

I phoned some people I know in Thailand a couple of days ago and they thought that the Shinawatra family had hired a Russian freight aircraft and taken some of their stuff out of the country, furniture etc.

Can anybody confirm this ?

[pap]

I think Thaksin has shown us how to do this, just suddenly swoop down and stomp all over them. So certainly that is how he must want to be treated. I would expect nothing less.

As far as money off shore, I think the USA has a lot of pull now in locking down bank accounts worldwide after 9-11. All wire transfers must in some way go to the USA, so its play or pay. The key is identifying the accounts.

If Thaksin wanted to hide money you go through banks in the bahama's such as Antigua that do not share or allow "any" countries access to their records. There are other haven's in Asia he would have likely used as well. Also using holding companies can make it very difficult to trace actual locations of funds.

[John K]

I think Thaksin has shown us how to do this, just suddenly swoop down and stomp all over them. So certainly that is how he must want to be treated. I would expect nothing less.

As far as money off shore, I think the USA has a lot of pull now in locking down bank accounts worldwide after 9-11. All wire transfers must in some way go to the USA, so its play or pay. The key is identifying the accounts.

If Thaksin wanted to hide money you go through banks in the bahama's such as Antigua that do not share or allow "any" countries access to their records. There are other haven's in Asia he would have likely used as well. Also using holding companies can make it very difficult to trace actual locations of funds.

Yes but what I am saying is the USA has some pull here. Think about the recent issue with Hamas, no money in or else. If the banks you mention want to be able to do wire transfers they better give some thoughts to their policy on that.

[pap]

Good luck I expect most of its safely out of the country in off shore accounts.

The profits from the Shin sales are still in Thai banks and, as I understand it, cannot be moved at this time. So what if he has moved billions off shore? What is the point?

I don't think I am understanding you. Are you saying Shin corp money is still in Thai banks and other money has moved offshore? I thought the bulk of the money came from Shin Corps and its family affiliates. I am not sure on this but that was my understanding. If the money is still in Thai banks recovering it is not a problem. If it went offshore that usually means it moved out from the control of Thai banks. In that case it will take a very high level of proof for any international bank to freeze that money especially if they do not do business in Thailand. Some banks simply will never freeze any money under any circumstances. In the event of a coup freezing this money becomes even more problematic in that international banks are not generally willing to work with a coup government that has not been internationally recognized yet. The details of international banking laws prohibit this. That is one of the drawbacks to military take over as opposed to democratic change. Having said that if there is ever a time that international banks may work with a coup government this is probably it. The international community seems at this point to have recognized this coup is different than what they have seen in the past. That is a good thing. It shows a level of understanding I was afraid did not exist of the situation in Thailand.

When my countrymen could not get any justice through what ..at the time...were our methods of recourse....they did something about it. We had a revolution. One could make arguments that this is the position Thais found themselve in. They had to take this action since the methods of democratic change were owned by Thaksin. I for one hope they can get what they are after. Including Thaksins money. But Thai people will need to understand that even though the world may agree with them that the international laws in place may not allow the actions they desire. That does not mean they aren't rooting for them though.

[Old Man River]

To answer some of the comments made:

The shares of SHIN that were sold were held by the former PM's children in offshore corporate accounts (Ample Rich etc.). This is not conjecture, but fact. Therefore, to purchase these shares, the payments would have been made to offshore corporate accounts (outside of Thailand). If the payments were in USD's and then changed by Ample Rich (etc.) to another currency (say THB), then the USD's would have been cleared through a US based bank. However, that would have taken place months ago and the US would have no way of now going back and reversing the transaction. If the payments were made in another currency (any other currency), then the US would not be involved, unless the money is now deposited in a US bank, and not as reported in this morning's newspapers, which reported that the THB 50 million (+ or -) were held in 3 Thai banks. Hence, they are saying that the funds are in THB.

Ample Rich (etc.), is a non - resident of Thailand. It is possible that the non-resident Ample Rich (etc.) could have opened up non-resident THB accounts in Thailand. In this scenario, the THB would be "physically" in Thailand, but not counted as THB in Thailand (i.e. not part of the country's money supply). If this is the case, then it would be up to the courts to decide whether Thailand can take control of these accounts, which were initially set up by the Bank of Thailand to help keep track of THB being held outside of Thailand, following the attack on the THB in 1997. Hence, if the newspaper is correct, then this THB is "physically" in the country, but may or may not be in complete control of the BOT.

[pap]

I think Thaksin has shown us how to do this, just suddenly swoop down and stomp all over them. So certainly that is how he must want to be treated. I would expect nothing less.

As far as money off shore, I think the USA has a lot of pull now in locking down bank accounts worldwide after 9-11. All wire transfers must in some way go to the USA, so its play or pay. The key is identifying the accounts.

If Thaksin wanted to hide money you go through banks in the bahama's such as Antigua that do not share or allow "any" countries access to their records. There are other haven's in Asia he would have likely used as well. Also using holding companies can make it very difficult to trace actual locations of funds.

Yes but what I am saying is the USA has some pull here. Think about the recent issue with Hamas, no money in or else. If the banks you mention want to be able to do wire transfers they better give some thoughts to their policy on that.

If you are saying they should do what is right I agree with you. But laws often have unintended consequences and not all money transfers go through the US. They use the internet and secure tunneling or point to point tunneling meaning the data (money) can get from point A to point B via anyone of a number of routes. What the US did with HAMAS was to tell global banks you can do business with them or us. Thats an over simplification but it about sums it up. Banks chose to not lose billions and Froze assets instead. There were relationships at stake. This time there are international Laws that get in the way. So it isn't that simple. One Xfer into Antigua for example and then moving the money to a seperate account and then transfering the money to multiple other accounts and money can no longer be associated to the originator of that money. Chasing the dough is not quite as easy as it sounds.

[pap]

To answer some of the comments made:

The shares of SHIN that were sold were held by the former PM's children in offshore corporate accounts (Ample Rich etc.). This is not conjecture, but fact. Therefore, to purchase these shares, the payments would have been made to offshore corporate accounts (outside of Thailand). If the payments were in USD's and then changed by Ample Rich (etc.) to another currency (say THB), then the USD's would have been cleared through a US based bank. However, that would have taken place months ago and the US would have no way of now going back and reversing the transaction. If the payments were made in another currency (any other currency), then the US would not be involved, unless the money is now deposited in a US bank, and not as reported in this morning's newspapers, which reported that the THB 50 million (+ or -) were held in 3 Thai banks. Hence, they are saying that the funds are in THB.

Ample Rich (etc.), is a non - resident of Thailand. It is possible that the non-resident Ample Rich (etc.) could have opened up non-resident THB accounts in Thailand. In this scenario, the THB would be "physically" in Thailand, but not counted as THB in Thailand (i.e. not part of the country's money supply). If this is the case, then it would be up to the courts to decide whether Thailand can take control of these accounts, which were initially set up by the Bank of Thailand to help keep track of THB being held outside of Thailand, following the attack on the THB in 1997. Hence, if the newspaper is correct, then this THB is "physically" in the country, but may or may not be in complete control of the BOT.

Thanks for the clarification. I think most of the money will be recoverable by Thailand. But since he was a billionaire I am sure he hid enough money to be comfortable elsewhere that probably wont be found. I am not familiar with UK extradition treaties. They may judge Thaksin a criminal and extradite hime to Thailand but since the coup was military they may also be bound by their own laws to allow him asylum. Does any one happen to know more about the UK system and relationship with Thailand?

[the scouser]

In order to be granted asylum in the UK, he has to demonstrate that he has a well-founded fear of persecution in Thailand based upon, in his case, political opinion.

That you are likely to face criminal charges in your home country is insufficient reason to be granted asylum unless you can demonstrate that you will either not receive a fair trial or any punishmnet you will receive is out of proportion to the alleged offence. For example, the UK will not extradite people to the US unless a guarantee is given that they will not face the death penalty.

Scouse.

[pap]

In order to be granted asylum in the UK, he has to demonstrate that he has a well-founded fear of persecution in Thailand based upon, in his case, political opinion.

That you are likely to face criminal charges in your home country is insufficient reason to be granted asylum unless you can demonstrate that you will either not receive a fair trial or any punishmnet you will receive is out of proportion to the alleged offence. For example, the UK will not extradite people to the US unless a guarantee is given that they will not face the death penalty.

Scouse.

Danke. Sounds pretty standard. I wonder if the UK would extradite to a Coup government? They may have to wait until civialian handoff first. It will be interesting.

[lung]

I phoned some people I know in Thailand a couple of days ago and they thought that the Shinawatra family had hired a Russian freight aircraft and taken some of their stuff out of the country, furniture etc.

Can anybody confirm this ?

yipp... but i can't re-find it.

was about 7 planes on the day as he go "outside"

[ilyushin]

I phoned some people I know in Thailand a couple of days ago and they thought that the Shinawatra family had hired a Russian freight aircraft and taken some of their stuff out of the country, furniture etc.

Can anybody confirm this ?

yipp... but i can't re-find it.

was about 7 planes on the day as he go "outside"

My sources told me 7 x Antonov 24/26 transport aircraft departed BKK around 3pm on the 19th. I would have to get access to the flight schedules, but eye witnesses confirmed Russian aircraft and total 7. In addition there was a Il-76TD that made a charter flight almost a week before. This all must be confirmed. I'll do my best and post the facts.

[ilyushin]

I phoned some people I know in Thailand a couple of days ago and they thought that the Shinawatra family had hired a Russian freight aircraft and taken some of their stuff out of the country, furniture etc.

Can anybody confirm this ?

yipp... but i can't re-find it.

was about 7 planes on the day as he go "outside"

My sources told me 7 x Antonov 24/26 transport aircraft departed BKK around 3pm on the 19th. I would have to get access to the flight schedules, but eye witnesses confirmed Russian aircraft and total 7. In addition there was a Il-76TD that made a charter flight almost a week before. This all must be confirmed. I'll do my best and post the facts.

This was from a previous post:

A Russian transport plane was chartered recently to carry a huge lot of cargo. It landed at an airbase with the permission of Air Force authorities. No need to ask for details. The next flight may be just for family members and kin who want to leave in a hurry.

[Maizefarmer]

All this comment about Mr T having hired cargo planes to cart out a load of his personal belongings

mmmmmm...... - take the statement one step back;

Thaksin was alledgedly only out the country for the UN annual General Yak Yak - which he attends every year around this time, so this journey had been on his travel intinary for a long time - beginning of this year at least, if not having been penciled in after last years UN General meeting.

If indeed the above turns out to be true it would imply he knew what was coming - well before it actually happened, and the problem with this is, that if that is the case he would have sacked Gen Sondthi , not by way of a statement from New York, but before he left Thailand. In fact I find it difficult to beleive he would have actually gone to the UN General Meeting at all if he knew this was coming.

Also, I think the press would have picked up on this (and I read the Thai papers everyday - nothing has been said), and I doubt Gen Sonthi & Co. would allow cargo planes to load up Mr T's goods all in the space of a few hours (or a day or so) and leave unfettered. At the very least they would have gone through everything with a fine toothcomb looking for large amounts of cash.

However - strange things happen and it may well turn out at some point in the not to distant future that Thaksin's departure and stepping down was something that was planned with all concerned before he left - in which case Sonthi would have been only to happy to see him take his goods if that mean't he wouldn't be coming back. Still thats a bit odd - because theres a big diff between a plane load of personal household goods been let go, and the absence of a man who you wish to speak to about alledged corruption and tax due on Bht 2billion.

But something else here is odd - Thaksin had his ear to the ground. If there was ever a Thai PM who monitored what others were saying or doing it was Thaksin. hel_l the guy ran communications in Thailand, you could say nothing on a phone without him knowing if you were on his list of people to watch (and be sure - all the guys running the show now were well known for been on the other side of the fence (i.e. they couldn't sneeze without Mr T been told) - and we are lead to understand he never even smelt a rat, he went off to the other side of the world to a meeting he had no need to attend other than out of courtesy, at a time when he knew the heat was on and it would provide an oppurtunity for his opponants to pul the rug out from under his feet.

May be the cargo plane story will turn out to be true and well planned - with the knowledge and help of conspirators.

I know, I know - this is all very conspiratorial...............but as somone else said in one of their postings on the forum, when you've been here long enough you will learn that if someone says "Good Morning", you may just as well go outside to check the sun has risen before replying!

Tim

Tim

[Khun Jean]

Thaksin was alledgedly only out the country for the UN annual General Yak Yak - which he attends every year around this time, so this journey had been on his travel intinary for a long time - beginning of this year at least, if not having been penciled in after last years UN General meeting.

If indeed the above turns out to be true it would imply he knew what was coming - well before it actually happened, and the problem with this is, that if that is the case he would have sacked Gen Sondthi , not by way of a statement from New York, but before he left Thailand. In fact I find it difficult to beleive he would have actually gone to the UN General Meeting at all if he knew this was coming.

I am sure he had something else in mind. And that is to declare a state of emergency.

It would give him enough reason to move all his stuff out of the country and move his family to a save place.

He would also transfer most of his money out of the country because he knows that declaring a state of emergency would mean a collapsing of the Thai baht.

And what a good moment to declare it when you are safe in a far away country, and let your buddies fight for you.

My feeling is that this coup is just in time. It prevented something much much worse.

[Ricardo]

It may once have been true that all the dollars in the world moved through USA bank-accounts, but now we have euro-dollars ( and pounds, etcetera), so the world's governments have totally lost control of their own currencies.

Otherwise it would be very much easier, to clamp-down upon the proceeds of crime & arms-dealing & drug-dealing, than it actually is.

And the BoT doesn't say Thaksin's Shin-Corp money hasn't left the country, just that they haven't noticed it, which is a slightly different thing. I can think of reasons why they might not have been looking too hard.

I heard a rumour, from a friend down there, that his wife did go to Singapore, but then chose to return home, once it was clear that this wasn't a shooting-coup. I guess she just couldn't face leaving all their un-moveable assets, airport land & houses & so-on. And also that she felt safe to return ? If the rumour is true, of course, and I wouldn't lay my life on it.

Edited September 24, 2006 by Ricardo

[Thaising]

BANGKOK (AFP) - Thailand's new military leaders were readying to install a new prime minister this week and step up a corruption probe against the premier they deposed in last week's coup.

In the graft probe, meanwhile, the auditor general, whose powers have been widened since the coup, has said she hopes to soon conclude a probe into the sale of bomb scanners for Bangkok's new airport, which is set to open Thursday.

Jaruvan Maintaka said she would then tackle nine other cases of alleged government corruption under Thaksin, including those in connection to an airport train link project, lottery revenues and tsunami relief.

Another major focus will be Thaksin's January sale of his family's telecom empire to a Singapore state company for a tax-free 1.9 billion dollars, the scandal which triggered mass protests against the autocratic leader.

"This was one of the major accusations against Thaksin and his gang, so of course now they will try to prove their point," said Nelson.

"It will be nice to find out whether there is really as much fire as the smoke indicated."

[sbk]

tsunami relief is being investigated? What is that about? Did those poor people not only lose their homes, jobs and families but then get shafted by the govt as well?

Also, maizefarmer, I must point out that Mr Thaksin was in Cuba before he went to the UN. Non-aligned movement meeting.

[Martin]

This is like attending a theatrical performance, where you are not allowed to know which parts (possibly all) had been carefully constructed, produced, directed, and rehearsed; and which parts were just ad libbed by the cast as they went along.

(But please note carefully what it says in your Programme leaflet about audience participation NOT being allowed.)

One is, however, allowed to have a quiet grin and nudge one's mate. (See the thread "Stupid Rumour Of The Day").

Whether politics (i.e. the making of decisions about the direction of development of Society) is serious, or not, depends on the economic circumstances of where you are.

For Singaporeans, it is very, very serious. Cock up politically and there is no food on the tables.

But for Thailand (or any other country with an agricultural hinterland that is more than enough to feed all its people, come hel_l or high water in the capital-city political manoeuvrings) politics doesn't really matter and can be part of the Theatre Of The Absurd.

Ain't it lovely? And aren't we lucky to have discovered it and be allowed to come to its performances?

[thaigene2]

Completely expected, and completely wrong. Thaksin probably did obtain a significant amount in shady if not outright illegal ways, but confiscating the property just because someone is out of political favor sends a very wrong message about Thailand. There should be legal procedings questioning the origin of property, but they should apply to all people in or close to politics, not just to Thaksin. Of course, snow in Bangkok is more likely than this...

I agree. This send the wrong message to foreign investors. This will scare them - not because they too are shady - but because they need Thai partners to do business here. The risk for them (foreign investors) has just increased. Remember we are competing with Singapore and Hong Kong, two countries that come out high on rule of law and transparency.

However..I also agree to a certain extent with this>>

The purge must start with the head.

It's only the begining of a process. Do not worry, some eminent members of Thaksin's clique will come under investigation too.

You continue to think that it's only a "little corruption", like a bad thai tradition, a form of "exotism".

No. With Thaksin, and for the first time in the modern history of this country, corruption has reached an industrial level.

We are going to be surprised in the weeks to come... Now that officials can really conduct investigations.

Pongsak (Minister transport), Somchai.... all of them are dirty. Sisters, wife, children, cousins, step brothers of Thaksin... All of them will feel the shame of the caught thieves.

NCCC must do it swiftly. To set an example, a precedent. So future candidates will think twice.

As I said I think you're also right ....but, why stop there? Some people have flamed me for pointing out that many, many people here live WAY beyond their civil service salaries. Open a pandoras box and never know what you'll find..Other cliches also come to mind - like 'letting the genie out of the bottle' for one....How's the baht doing?