Full-fledged western-inspired democracy 'unfit for Thailand'

[lostoday]

to come back to the topic, full-fledged Western style democracy is not only unfit for Thailand, it is in general unfit everywhere.

many Western democracies are driving themselves into the wall because unproductive voters have too much influence on the outcome of votes while prodcutive citzens tend to emigrate.

Emigrate where?

[manarak]

to come back to the topic, full-fledged Western style democracy is not only unfit for Thailand, it is in general unfit everywhere.

many Western democracies are driving themselves into the wall because unproductive voters have too much influence on the outcome of votes while prodcutive citzens tend to emigrate.

Emigrate where?

They usually leave for Switzerland, UK, USA, Canada, Australia ... Other destinations such as Singapore, Thailand, etc. are attractive too if the numbers of departures are put in relation with the population size of destination countries.

Hong Kong, India, Taiwan, New Zealand, Bahrain and China are also among preferred destinations.

Edited August 27, 2015 by manarak

[NCC1701A]

more Thai dress up and pretend. when Communist China is free to move on SEA, you can kiss your Thai ass democracy good bye. 2025 by the latest. and farang man go home fast.

[TheKnave]

If democracy is so good and great, why did less than 60% of the UK and US populations exercise their democratic right to vote in the last elections.

What you imply is backward.

If those democracies are no longer great, it's precisely because their citizens failed to vote, and take seriously their responsibilites.

Most are anesthetized by TV, fast food, and credit cards. When the other shoe drops, look out...

[manarak]

If democracy is so good and great, why did less than 60% of the UK and US populations exercise their democratic right to vote in the last elections.

What you imply is backward.

If those democracies are no longer great, it's precisely because their citizens failed to vote, and take seriously their responsibilites.

Most are anesthetized by TV, fast food, and credit cards. When the other shoe drops, look out...

I think it is the opposite: because their responsibilities were taken away from them !

[Thai at Heart]

Ok, I know I am going to get flamed but here goes. I for one do not think that what has become known as a Western democracy is right for Thailand; at least at the moment. However, my reasoning is at odds with the current government's and their cronies. There is no doubt in my mind that the govt. is trying to return Thailand to a mythical ' Golden Age', based upon the idea that the elite possess the the right to govern. The reason Western democracy will not work in Thailand is because Thailand is still a feudal state. Sure it exhibits all the trappings of a developing country but the core beliefs and importantly operational functioning of Thai society is based upon allegiances to someone higher up the 'food chain'. These allegiances are are almost tribal in the way power is organised and distributed throughout Thai society.

So, until such time as these feudal power bases are completely abolished...Thailand is not ready for a Western style democracy. Unfortunately the model currently being proposed will only disenfranchise millions of Thais.

Ergo it is the elite that is the problem.

[taiwanatoa]

http://prachatai.org/english/node/5422?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+prachataienglish+%28Prachatai+in+English%29

As long as this outrageous law exists, Thailand will remain hopeless.

" He added that he has been very careful with the issue of the monarchy and never really touched the issue

Golly, I wonder why ?

.

[fish fingers]

Prayuth seems to want to modernise the country at the expense of all the characterful stuff that make it special to the rest of the world. That pisses me off more than anything.

He's completely xenophobic as well, which makes me wonder why he wants to embrace a western style bureaucratic system which won't work.

[Thai at Heart]

Actually what he should say is "Thailand is unfit for Western style democracy"

[chiang mai]

Prayuth seems to want to modernise the country at the expense of all the characterful stuff that make it special to the rest of the world. That pisses me off more than anything.

He's completely xenophobic as well, which makes me wonder why he wants to embrace a western style bureaucratic system which won't work.

"Prayuth seems to want to modernise the country at the expense of all the characterful stuff that make it special to the rest of the world. That pisses me off more than anything".

You mean like young rural farm girls having to sell their bodies to tourists, just to support their family, is that what you mean by "characterful stuff"?

[chiang mai]

If democracy is so good and great, why did less than 60% of the UK and US populations exercise their democratic right to vote in the last elections.

What you imply is backward.

If those democracies are no longer great, it's precisely because their citizens failed to vote, and take seriously their responsibilites.

Most are anesthetized by TV, fast food, and credit cards. When the other shoe drops, look out...

Not really, the implication is that 40% don't think democracy is that great, only a slim majority do, ergo the case for it is barely proven.

[lostoday]

Prayuth seems to want to modernise the country at the expense of all the characterful stuff that make it special to the rest of the world. That pisses me off more than anything.

He's completely xenophobic as well, which makes me wonder why he wants to embrace a western style bureaucratic system which won't work.

"Prayuth seems to want to modernise the country at the expense of all the characterful stuff that make it special to the rest of the world. That pisses me off more than anything".

You mean like young rural farm girls having to sell their bodies to tourists, just to support their family, is that what you mean by "characterful stuff"?

With a 1% rate of unemployment that is hardly true in Thailand. Women do what they want to do here in fact there are more Thai women CEO's than anywhere in the world.

[chiang mai]

Prayuth seems to want to modernise the country at the expense of all the characterful stuff that make it special to the rest of the world. That pisses me off more than anything.

He's completely xenophobic as well, which makes me wonder why he wants to embrace a western style bureaucratic system which won't work.

"Prayuth seems to want to modernise the country at the expense of all the characterful stuff that make it special to the rest of the world. That pisses me off more than anything".

You mean like young rural farm girls having to sell their bodies to tourists, just to support their family, is that what you mean by "characterful stuff"?

With a 1% rate of unemployment that is hardly true in Thailand. Women do what they want to do here in fact there are more Thai women CEO's than anywhere in the world.

That's very misleading on a number of fronts, not the least is the fact that an unemployment rate of less than 1% is only achieved by counting people who sell or do something, sometimes, if it were otherwise the average monthly salary would be far higher than it is.

[lostoday]

Prayuth seems to want to modernise the country at the expense of all the characterful stuff that make it special to the rest of the world. That pisses me off more than anything.

He's completely xenophobic as well, which makes me wonder why he wants to embrace a western style bureaucratic system which won't work.

"Prayuth seems to want to modernise the country at the expense of all the characterful stuff that make it special to the rest of the world. That pisses me off more than anything".

You mean like young rural farm girls having to sell their bodies to tourists, just to support their family, is that what you mean by "characterful stuff"?

With a 1% rate of unemployment that is hardly true in Thailand. Women do what they want to do here in fact there are more Thai women CEO's than anywhere in the world.

That's very misleading on a number of fronts, not the least is the fact that an unemployment rate of less than 1% is only achieved by counting people who sell or do something, sometimes, if it were otherwise the average monthly salary would be far higher than it is.

They compute unemployment the same way other countries compute it and if it is OK with the IMF it's OK with me.

A lady in Thailand has two choices to make as much money as a doctor. 1. Be a doctor or 2. Dance in a Go go.

It is a career option available in Thailand that is not available in many places in the West. Thailand is OK with it and so am I.

Part of a democracy is being able to choose. In Thailand they can't choose who will govern them but at least they can choose what they do with their bodies.

Edited August 27, 2015 by lostoday

[chiang mai]

Whilst this thread is about democracy, its application in Thailand is inextricably linked to the economy.

So you think that poor rural farm girls sell their bodies to tourists out of choice, right!

"Most studies show that women start working in the sex industry, because they come from extremely poor, large families with rural backgrounds. For example, a study including 800 female sex workers reported that 56% of women said poverty was the reason they became involved in the sex service. In addition, the majority (87%) of women interviewed had only completed very low levels of education (Limanonda and Chongwatana 1995: 560). These statistics suggest that women participating in the sex industry belong to very low social classes and bear a low status".

"While the skin trade consists largely of Thai men, it is highly supported by foreign tourists, who are able to spend more money. Eighty-nine percent of tourists that come to Bangkok are male; most travel from countries such as Japan, Germany, Western Europe, and the United States (Bishop & Robinson 1998: 67). However, the sex industry hasn’t always been so closely linked with the tourist industry."

http://www.unc.edu/~pcvelich/bangkok/net1024.htm

[chiang mai]

"Prayuth seems to want to modernise the country at the expense of all the characterful stuff that make it special to the rest of the world. That pisses me off more than anything".

You mean like young rural farm girls having to sell their bodies to tourists, just to support their family, is that what you mean by "characterful stuff"?

With a 1% rate of unemployment that is hardly true in Thailand. Women do what they want to do here in fact there are more Thai women CEO's than anywhere in the world.

That's very misleading on a number of fronts, not the least is the fact that an unemployment rate of less than 1% is only achieved by counting people who sell or do something, sometimes, if it were otherwise the average monthly salary would be far higher than it is.

They compute unemployment the same way other countries compute it and if it is OK with the IMF it's OK with me.

A lady in Thailand has two choices to make as much money as a doctor. 1. Be a doctor or 2. Dance in a Go go.

It is a career option available in Thailand that is not available in many places in the West. Thailand is OK with it and so am I.

Part of a democracy is being able to choose. In Thailand they can't choose who will govern them but at least they can choose what they do with their bodies.

If only life were as simple as that: you want to earn good money, be a doctor, you don't have what it takes to become a doctor, be a gogo dancer - now that you've covered the two percent who are actually able to do those things (for a variety of reasons), what about the other 98%.

[lostoday]

With a 1% rate of unemployment that is hardly true in Thailand. Women do what they want to do here in fact there are more Thai women CEO's than anywhere in the world.

That's very misleading on a number of fronts, not the least is the fact that an unemployment rate of less than 1% is only achieved by counting people who sell or do something, sometimes, if it were otherwise the average monthly salary would be far higher than it is.

They compute unemployment the same way other countries compute it and if it is OK with the IMF it's OK with me.

A lady in Thailand has two choices to make as much money as a doctor. 1. Be a doctor or 2. Dance in a Go go.

It is a career option available in Thailand that is not available in many places in the West. Thailand is OK with it and so am I.

Part of a democracy is being able to choose. In Thailand they can't choose who will govern them but at least they can choose what they do with their bodies.

If only life were as simple as that: you want to earn good money, be a doctor, you don't have what it takes to become a doctor, be a gogo dancer - now that you've covered the two percent who are actually able to do those things (for a variety of reasons), what about the other 98%.

Same thing as the rest of us work for 7/11 or a factory. Lots of factory jobs go wanting. Thailand has imported a million people from Burma and Cambodia to do construction and service jobs.

[Spleen]

Poor bloke,Obviously had some kind of stroke affecting his long term memory

[MAJIC]

They just go round and round don't they! Always BS, never lock anything in with cement. Democracy can work if the laws are written right in the first place.

One mans democracy is another mans prison!

[JAG]

Prayuth seems to want to modernise the country at the expense of all the characterful stuff that make it special to the rest of the world. That pisses me off more than anything.

He's completely xenophobic as well, which makes me wonder why he wants to embrace a western style bureaucratic system which won't work.

"Prayuth seems to want to modernise the country at the expense of all the characterful stuff that make it special to the rest of the world. That pisses me off more than anything".

You mean like young rural farm girls having to sell their bodies to tourists, just to support their family, is that what you mean by "characterful stuff"?

With a 1% rate of unemployment that is hardly true in Thailand. Women do what they want to do here in fact there are more Thai women CEO's than anywhere in the world.

In fact they even had a woman as Prime Minister recently. .... uhm, er, well perhaps we'll not mention that. ....

[Christie Paul]

The founding fathers of the United States condemned democracy in numerous letters and articles. They hated it and believed that its implementation would lead to oligarchy. They stood for the "republic", sharing the opinion of Plato. Nevertheless, democracy had its start in the Greek city states and that didn't end well - unless you think imploding and burning to the ground is a good thing.

I'm surprised at how few Westerners understand what a republic is and what a democracy is. Common opinion would it seem, reflect the triumph of propaganda, in which an idea that clearly yielded the very best of results in terms of economic progress, justice and egalitarianism has somehow been jettisoned and replaced with an idea, which has produced nothing but misery, endless war and horrendous injustice, yet is held as something of great merit, something worth attaining.

I would guess that most posters have the very best of intentions for both the West and Thailand - but the ferocity of their arguments are somewhat disconnected to reality, which leads us to an inevitable truth, of the road to hell being paved with good intentions.

I hope that de Maistre was wrong when he said " Every nation gets the government it deserves", because if that's the case we are all a little screwed.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Christie Paul

[Fat Haggis]

That explains why there's a Democratic Republic of Congo didn't they have a military coup recently too?

[lostoday]

to come back to the topic, full-fledged Western style democracy is not only unfit for Thailand, it is in general unfit everywhere.

many Western democracies are driving themselves into the wall because unproductive voters have too much influence on the outcome of votes while prodcutive citzens tend to emigrate.

Emigrate where?

They usually leave for Switzerland, UK, USA, Canada, Australia ... Other destinations such as Singapore, Thailand, etc. are attractive too if the numbers of departures are put in relation with the population size of destination countries.

Hong Kong, India, Taiwan, New Zealand, Bahrain and China are also among preferred destinations.

I understand. I thought you meant the Western productive citizens emigrate like I did to Thailand. Most of the productive Thais I know don't want to leave Thailand. I think you mean people from Philippines not Thais. Maybe you could refer me to a link that references how many educated Thais leave Thailand but I don't know of any.

[manarak]

to come back to the topic, full-fledged Western style democracy is not only unfit for Thailand, it is in general unfit everywhere.

many Western democracies are driving themselves into the wall because unproductive voters have too much influence on the outcome of votes while prodcutive citzens tend to emigrate.

Emigrate where?

They usually leave for Switzerland, UK, USA, Canada, Australia ... Other destinations such as Singapore, Thailand, etc. are attractive too if the numbers of departures are put in relation with the population size of destination countries.

Hong Kong, India, Taiwan, New Zealand, Bahrain and China are also among preferred destinations.

I understand. I thought you meant the Western productive citizens emigrate like I did to Thailand. Most of the productive Thais I know don't want to leave Thailand. I think you mean people from Philippines not Thais. Maybe you could refer me to a link that references how many educated Thais leave Thailand but I don't know of any.

people in Western democracies increasingly behave such as I described - not Thais.

[lostoday]

Emigrate where?

They usually leave for Switzerland, UK, USA, Canada, Australia ... Other destinations such as Singapore, Thailand, etc. are attractive too if the numbers of departures are put in relation with the population size of destination countries.

Hong Kong, India, Taiwan, New Zealand, Bahrain and China are also among preferred destinations.

I understand. I thought you meant the Western productive citizens emigrate like I did to Thailand. Most of the productive Thais I know don't want to leave Thailand. I think you mean people from Philippines not Thais. Maybe you could refer me to a link that references how many educated Thais leave Thailand but I don't know of any.

people in Western democracies increasingly behave such as I described - not Thais.

So what Western democracy loses citizens to what other country?

[cumgranosalum]

e last government distasteful? Should the rice scam and the huge loan to prop up its losses been allowed to continue, the G2G theft allowed to reap millions, and the perpetrators to enact their own amnesty?

Your lessons in democracy are fine, but at what price.

The price it costs for an election. How much does an election cost in Thailand. It's not that expensive is it? In he West political parties spend the money on advertising in Thailand they cut out the middle man and give the people the money for the votes directly however I think it's still a lot cheaper than what it costs to be elected in the West.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? The cost to the people of Thailand of Defendant Number 1's criminal governments has been huge, yet their supporters continue to accept their electoral bribes and re-elect them. The majority of Thai voters who DIDN'T vote these criminals have rights too, to a government that would obey the laws of the land, not suborn police to ignore their crimes, and not vote themselves an amnesty to prevent future prosecution.

Democratically elected governments should represent ALL the people, not just their supporters. It is not a winners and losers scenario, where the winners are entitled to ride roughshod while stealing as much as possible, and then offering expensive and unsustainable electoral bribes to be re-elected.

Wrong. A democratically government represents the people who voted for it. That is the first rule of political science. There is always a majority and minority who hold different ideas. One government thinks Thailand needs submarines and another does not. The government who does not want submarines does not represent the government who does. Get it?

"Wrong. A democratically government represents the people who voted for it." - this unfortunately is a classic misunderstanding of how democracy works - you should have learned more than that if you were paying attention at school.

Democracy has only a passing resemblance to "majority rule" - if you bothered to look into it at all you'd see that part of the system is specifically designed to prevent that.

This is another case of people posting when they really don't know enough about the topic to do so.

[onelasttime]

Ok, I know I am going to get flamed but here goes. I for one do not think that what has become known as a Western democracy is right for Thailand; at least at the moment. However, my reasoning is at odds with the current government's and their cronies. There is no doubt in my mind that the govt. is trying to return Thailand to a mythical ' Golden Age', based upon the idea that the elite possess the the right to govern. The reason Western democracy will not work in Thailand is because Thailand is still a feudal state. Sure it exhibits all the trappings of a developing country but the core beliefs and importantly operational functioning of Thai society is based upon allegiances to someone higher up the 'food chain'. These allegiances are are almost tribal in the way power is organised and distributed throughout Thai society.

So, until such time as these feudal power bases are completely abolished...Thailand is not ready for a Western style democracy. Unfortunately the model currently being proposed will only disenfranchise millions of Thais.

Ergo it is the elite that is the problem.

I agree that the bulk of the problem lies at the feet of the amart after all, that is how a feudal system works, however these allegiances I talk about are so deeply entrenched in Thai culture. Take for example the village head..not the elite as we would probably define it..however...want things done ? gifts are made, power is consolidated. It is precisely this social structure which undermines the legislature and judiciary and without transparency and accountability at this level all other trappings of democracy are just that. But I do take your point.

[Mackie]

I really am amused with consistent talk about Thai elites as if the USA or the UK have no their own elites which totally abuse supposedly democratic systems for their own gains. It's a juvenile argument. Our elites are as bad as Thais, if not worse. US oligarchy for sure. They only take and give nothing in return. A fact.

The western world should simply stop meddling into internal affairs of sovereign countries. Whenever we get involved, there is a civil war and carnage. Former Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya, Syrian, Ukraine etc...etc...I would hate to see Thailand taking the same route. Transition from one system to another takes same. If you rush into it, the civil war is inevitable. See above examples.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Mackie

[Thai at Heart]

I really am amused with consistent talk about Thai elites as if the USA or the UK have no their own elites which totally abuse supposedly democratic systems for their own gains. It's a juvenile argument. Our elites are as bad as Thais, if not worse. US oligarchy for sure. They only take and give nothing in return. A fact.

The western world should simply start meddling into internal affairs of sovereign countries. Whenever we get involved, there is a civil war and carnage. Former Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya, Syrian, Ukraine etc...etc...I would hate to see Thailand taking the same route. Transition from one system to another takes same. If you rush into it, the civil war is inevitable. See above examples.

This may be partially true, but conflict of interest and commercial relationships are declared by procedure and are in the public domain.

In Thailand, the government serves it's paymasters first and then the people second. Rules are written to suit very narrow interests with little public scrutiny or declaration.

There is one renowned giver in Thailand and there are few others. The restrictions to business are now a brake on progress but no govt will be allowed to break down these barriers whilst the humble Thai consumer continues to overpay for goods and services and companies are discouraged from investing in Thailand bringing more jobs.

Corruption is ingrained into the system to a degree that it is common place and the system is actively set up to prohibit investigation and prevention. Everything is in the favour of the manipulative and corrupt.

[dageurreotype]

Ok, I know I am going to get flamed but here goes. I for one do not think that what has become known as a Western democracy is right for Thailand; at least at the moment. However, my reasoning is at odds with the current government's and their cronies. There is no doubt in my mind that the govt. is trying to return Thailand to a mythical ' Golden Age', based upon the idea that the elite possess the the right to govern. The reason Western democracy will not work in Thailand is because Thailand is still a feudal state. Sure it exhibits all the trappings of a developing country but the core beliefs and importantly operational functioning of Thai society is based upon allegiances to someone higher up the 'food chain'. These allegiances are are almost tribal in the way power is organised and distributed throughout Thai society.

So, until such time as these feudal power bases are completely abolished...Thailand is not ready for a Western style democracy. Unfortunately the model currently being proposed will only disenfranchise millions of Thais.

What you're describing is exactly the same as the West BEFORE democracy was bitterly and bloodily fought for and won. The citizens subjects of this country have been forever denied their opportunity to work towards democracy and the overwhelming majority have been kept so ignorant and cowed it's unlikely they will ever have one. Don't be so patronising.