So the British Embassy will not register our marriage... so what now?

[boldface]

I've read all the topics on here about this, and confirmed with the British Consular service by phone that they do not do this.

We are / were moving to Italy. Italian Consulate told us that for the wife to move to Italy as my spouse under the free movement directive, I would need to have the marriage certificate (married in Thailand) registered in the UK. This can not be done, as the UK accepts the legality of Thai Wedding certificates, so does not offer the service to register them just for the benefit of other consulates.

Catch 22. Spain seems to be the same as well.

So we are going to try the following.

s

Option 1.

Translate it, MFA stamp it, take it to the British Embassy with an affadavit to swear and sign in front of them saying it is real, I am who I am, and that the wedding is legally recognized in the UK under UK law. I will back this up with a printout of the actual law in the UK stating that they do recognise the marriage. Take all of this to the Italian consulate along with a copy of the EU directive which states that I do not need the marriage to be recognized by my home country.

That is option one. Is there an easier way?

Option 2

Find another country that does have this requirement in the EU Free movement area, get in and settle there instead.

Option 3

As Option 2, but once there, drive to Italy. Fraught with danger that one as I assume she would need the visa to apply for residence permit anyway.

IN relation to option 2 - which countries actually do not need to see this bit of paper which the UK embassy will not issue anymore?

[Mobi]

This probably sounds silly, but do you happen to know if Italy recognises Thai marriage?

Is it possible that you were asking the wrong questions or maybe there was a breakdown in communication due to language? Bureaucrats often only answer the questions put to them. They don't try to help.

If Italy does recognises Thai marriages, couldn't you get the Thai marriage certificate translated into Italian and stamped by MOF. Maybe they would accept that?

Just a thought...

[7by7]

As you say, this problem has arisen before with Spain. See this topic for a recent example.

As I say in that topic, what is required under the directive is not that a third country, in this case the UK, recognises the marriage as legal, but that the country applied to, in this case Italy, recognises it. By demanding that you register your marriage in the UK, which you can't do anyway, Italy are in direct contravention of the directive.

As I also say there, you should complain to SOLVIT. If enough people complain, action may be taken; if no one complains nothing will change.

Having said that, as Arkady says in this post, the British embassy will issue a 'UK Information Note - Recognition or Validity of Marriage.'

See that post for a pdf attachment of that note.

Hopefully, that will satisfy the Italians.

Moot point;

British embassies have never registered marriages. Brits who married abroad used to be able to deposit their foreign, e.g. Thai, marriage certificate with the General Register Office in the UK via their local embassy; but this was not actually registering the marriage. If it is already legally registered in the country where it took place the marriage cannot be registered again in the UK as under UK law a couple cannot legally register an existing, legal marriage again.

This service was discontinued; presumably because so few people bothered to use it and pay the extortionate fee demanded.

[bobrussell]

The British Embassy have made it clear that they will not confirm in writing that a particular foreign marriage is recognised or valid. Not sure how they could unless they have the willingness or resources to check each set of documents. They don't and they don't!

The pdf is about the best you will get out of them. As they see it, the Spanish and Italian authorities are responsible for making sure the paperwork is valid in each particular case. This is a particularly nonsensical part of the bureaucracy linked to individual countries interpreting the rules for themselves and adding little twists here and there.

SOLVIT is a sensible place to report this abuse of the rules. Not much will happen with one complaint but as they stack up things may start to change.

[boldface]

As you say, this problem has arisen before with Spain. See this topic for a recent example.

As I say in that topic, what is required under the directive is not that a third country, in this case the UK, recognises the marriage as legal, but that the country applied to, in this case Italy, recognises it. By demanding that you register your marriage in the UK, which you can't do anyway, Italy are in direct contravention of the directive.

As I also say there, you should complain to SOLVIT. If enough people complain, action may be taken; if no one complains nothing will change.

Having said that, as Arkady says in this post, the British embassy will issue a 'UK Information Note - Recognition or Validity of Marriage.'

See that post for a pdf attachment of that note.

Hopefully, that will satisfy the Italians.

Moot point;

British embassies have never registered marriages. Brits who married abroad used to be able to deposit their foreign, e.g. Thai, marriage certificate with the General Register Office in the UK via their local embassy; but this was not actually registering the marriage. If it is already legally registered in the country where it took place the marriage cannot be registered again in the UK as under UK law a couple cannot legally register an existing, legal marriage again.

This service was discontinued; presumably because so few people bothered to use it and pay the extortionate fee demanded.

Thanks. I had already sent an email to the Italian embassy asking for clarification, enclosing a direct link to the UK government website showing the "'UK Information Note - Recognition or Validity of Marriage.' letter, as well as another link to the Gov.uk website of the exact law stating that they recognize all marriages which are deeded legal in Thailand, and fulfill all of their criteria.

Still waiting for a response which at the same time, checking out other routes and options.

Mobi - I had thought of that, and had a long list of exact precise questions to ask. My initial one was to explain what I was planning to do, and what I needed for the visa, and how long it would take to get. That's when he dropped the bombshell, which having been up to speed on the Spanish situation already and guessing there might be an issue, I already had a lost of questions to ask which were worded to interject that in real terms under EU law... what he was asking for was not required....whilst being very polite as well because I have the feeling that the guy I spoke to was the main guy because their embassy is him and a couple of secretaries I understand.

I will wait and see what he says if he ever replies to the email. If not I will chase him up tomorrow and post his response.

[beano2274]

Why blame the British Embassy, the issue is with the two other Embassies. I am sure that if a Spaniard or Italian married in Thailand they would accept without issues the Thai marriage certificate.

[boldface]

^ Wrong. For an Italian to marry in Thailand, they first have to go to the embassy and get a Permission to Marry certificate (not a a affidavit like Brits get). They apply with their fiance for permission to get married. Once that is granted, they then get the affirmation of freedom to marry as well. The Thais never see the permission form as the don't care or want it. After they are married, under Italian law, they get the wedding cert translated and stamped by the MFA, take it to the embassy again who send it / or a copy (not quite sure about the translation there) to Italy to the government who register the marriage.

It is their laws so they must be abided by unless they can be convinced that although they do this, others do not or will not.

The UK consulate said they stopped doing it because it cost them money, and there was no point. Literally - cost cuts. I shoudl imagine this tied in with the backroom deal that handed VFS millions of our money in exchange for a crappy and bloomin expensive service.

[beano2274]

^ Wrong. For an Italian to marry in Thailand, they first have to go to the embassy and get a Permission to Marry certificate (not a a affidavit like Brits get). They apply with their fiance for permission to get married. Once that is granted, they then get the affirmation of freedom to marry as well. The Thais never see the permission form as the don't care or want it. After they are married, under Italian law, they get the wedding cert translated and stamped by the MFA, take it to the embassy again who send it / or a copy (not quite sure about the translation there) to Italy to the government who register the marriage.

It is their laws so they must be abided by unless they can be convinced that although they do this, others do not or will not.

The UK consulate said they stopped doing it because it cost them money, and there was no point. Literally - cost cuts. I shoudl imagine this tied in with the backroom deal that handed VFS millions of our money in exchange for a crappy and bloomin expensive service.

Brits do exactly the same, to get married, and once married you can have your Wedding Certificate sent to the UK, but it does not need to be registered, as a marriage in Thailand is legal everywhere else in the world.

When sending the marriage certificate to the UK the applicant paid not the Embassy.

[beano2274]

I remember years ago getting a Visa for my wife (free of course) under the EEU Directive at the Italian Embassy, had the Marriage Certificate translated into English and certified by the MFA, nothing else was required to prove the marriage.

Edited October 26, 2015 by beano2274

[boldface]

Well thank the lord you arrived with your years out of date information and inaccuracies.

1 - you can not register your marriage in the UK, that was performed in Thailand.

2 - Brits only need an affirmation. Italians need PERMISSION certificate from Italy to marry, and then an AFFIRMATION which is for the Thais. Two different points.

[beano2274]

Well thank the lord you arrived with your years out of date information and inaccuracies.

1 - you can not register your marriage in the UK, that was performed in Thailand.

2 - Brits only need an affirmation. Italians need PERMISSION certificate from Italy to marry, and then an AFFIRMATION which is for the Thais. Two different points.

Who are you replying to? Try using the quote button so we all know who you are talking to!!

I stated in my post that you do not register your marriage in the UK if married in Thailand, you can send it to the authorities.

May i also suggest that the VFS amend their website as it states

For Thai applicants married to Italian/EU citizens, Original Thai Marriage Certificate translated into English.

See point 12

http://www.vfsglobal.com/italy/thailand/pdf/checklist_tourist_211015.pdf

Edited October 26, 2015 by beano2274

[boldface]

Well thank the lord you arrived with your years out of date information and inaccuracies.

1 - you can not register your marriage in the UK, that was performed in Thailand.

2 - Brits only need an affirmation. Italians need PERMISSION certificate from Italy to marry, and then an AFFIRMATION which is for the Thais. Two different points.

Who are you replying to? Try using the quote button so we all know who you are talking to!!

I stated in my post that you do not register your marriage in the UK if married in Thailand, you can send it to the authorities.

...which you can not do now! As I said, you have out of date information.

Also, VFS has nothing to do with visas like this for freedom of movement with spouse applications - you have to and can only go straight to the embassy or consulate of the country you are planning on going to.

Anything more to add that is completely inaccurate and out of date? I suggest you find a thread from 2001 and contribute to that!

[beano2274]

Well thank the lord you arrived with your years out of date information and inaccuracies.

1 - you can not register your marriage in the UK, that was performed in Thailand.

2 - Brits only need an affirmation. Italians need PERMISSION certificate from Italy to marry, and then an AFFIRMATION which is for the Thais. Two different points.

Who are you replying to? Try using the quote button so we all know who you are talking to!!

I stated in my post that you do not register your marriage in the UK if married in Thailand, you can send it to the authorities.

...which you can not do now! As I said, you have out of date information.

Also, VFS has nothing to do with visas like this for freedom of movement with spouse applications - you have to and can only go straight to the embassy or consulate of the country you are planning on going to.

Anything more to add that is completely inaccurate and out of date? I suggest you find a thread from 2001 and contribute to that!

i went straight to the embassy with my wife and MIL thanks, and they both got Visas, if you read the PDF it states you only need a wedding certificate translated into English for Italians and EU Citizens married to Thais.

[bobrussell]

Perhaps another money spinning wheeze for UKVI? I bet they could check the paperwork and certify compliance with UK law (as Thai wedding certificates already do). £95 for five minutes work?

[boldface]

Perhaps another money spinning wheeze for UKVI? I bet they could check the paperwork and certify compliance with UK law (as Thai wedding certificates already do). £95 for five minutes work?

The guy I spoke to on the phone there was very straight forward about it. Cost cuts from central meant that that had to go. With something like that, as with their notary service, I get the impression that they need more people working there which for embassy staff is rather expensive.

Anyway, we're being sidetracked.

Anyone know of the countries in Europe where this charade is not needed?

[micmichd]

A "Permission to Marry" certificate?

Under which conditions can it be denied?

[OJAS]

Anyone know of the countries in Europe where this charade is not needed?

I would earnestly hope that France is one of them since my Thai wife is planning to accompany me on a trip to Paris to visit my sister who lives and works there next spring. Unfortunately we probably won't find out for certain until my wife submits her Schengen visa application in February.

TLScontact initially informed her that our Thai marriage would need to be legalised by the British Embassy as a prerequisite to her being exempted from the French "Attestation D'Accueil" requirement. But when I subsequently queried this advice with the French Embassy, all they told me (twice) was that she would not require an "Attestation D'Accueil" on account of my British nationality, and on the second occasion made vague references to "new regulations" which they had issued to TLScontact a few weeks ago!

Anyway it is, of course, worth noting from both this thread and other Schengen-related ones that inconsistency rules OK not only among individual Thai immigration offices but also among EU member state embassies in Bangkok!

[snowgard]

Maybe this informations would help you:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/information-for-british-nationals-intending-to-marry-in-thailand

[theoldgit]

Off topic post removed.

[boldface]

Anyone know of the countries in Europe where this charade is not needed?

I would earnestly hope that France is one of them since my Thai wife is planning to accompany me on a trip to Paris to visit my sister who lives and works there next spring. Unfortunately we probably won't find out for certain until my wife submits her Schengen visa application in February.

TLScontact initially informed her that our Thai marriage would need to be legalised by the British Embassy as a prerequisite to her being exempted from the French "Attestation D'Accueil" requirement. But when I subsequently queried this advice with the French Embassy, all they told me (twice) was that she would not require an "Attestation D'Accueil" on account of my British nationality, and on the second occasion made vague references to "new regulations" which they had issued to TLScontact a few weeks ago!

Anyway it is, of course, worth noting from both this thread and other Schengen-related ones that inconsistency rules OK not only among individual Thai immigration offices but also among EU member state embassies in Bangkok!

This isn't about Shengen or tourists visa. This is about moving to the country permanently. You would apply through VFS, and I apply directly to the Italian consulate. Completely different.

[boldface]

Maybe this informations would help you:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/information-for-british-nationals-intending-to-marry-in-thailand

... no. Already married.... and been through the Gov website in its entirety. Thanks though.

[boldface]

A "Permission to Marry" certificate?

Under which conditions can it be denied?

The usual - not capable, already married etc.

[micmichd]

A "Permission to Marry" certificate?

Under which conditions can it be denied?

The usual - not capable, already married etc.

"not capable"?

How would they know or find out?

[Autonuaq]

if you have married in the Ampur then the marriage is a legal marriage that is recognized in most western countries.

you need to provide documents of your home country that you are able to and allowed to marry in Thailand before the marriage to the Thai authorities and these must be legalized. After the marriage you need the the Kor-Ror 2 and Kor-Ror 3 with translation to the multiplicity where you live in Europe also legalized.

Legalization of the documents needed is done by the Embassy end the ministry of Foreign affairs in Thailand before the marriage and after the marriage.

This is the way and do not forget register the choice of right when you register the document in Europe or outside Thailand which right you want to apply to the marriage

the actual registration of the marriage itself is also done in the country of residence in Europe. not at the embassy.

The country can refuse the marriage for several reasons. Reasons like it is presumable a fake marriage or criminal records or fraud or other reasons.

in general if all done by the book there is no problem

.

[theoldgit]

A number of off topic posts removed as well as one containing inaccurate information.

[beano2274]

you could do it another way in just get a tourist visa for your wife and then get a residence card when in Italy. This is what we did for Germany, and my wife has her Residency Card.

[sandyf]

Contact the local authorities in the country where you want to get married or enter into a civil partnership to find out what you need to do.

Your marriage or civil partnership should be recognised in the UK if you follow the correct process according to local law - you won’t need to register it in the UK.

https://www.gov.uk/marriage-abroad

[theoldgit]

Nonsense post removed.

[boldface]

Deary me.

1 - We are married. The marriage is legal and recognised by the UK governement.

2 - Italy Law says it needs to be individually recognised as legal prior to being let in.

3 - UK consulate will not do this.

catch 22.

Why is this so hard for people to grasp?

[7by7]

British embassies have not stopped registering foreign marriages; because they never did it!

What has stopped is the facility to send your original foreign marriage certificate to the GRO in the UK for safe keeping via a British embassy. If you want to do this now you have to send it direct to the GRO yourself.

As an exorbitant fee was charged for the service, I fail to see how stopping it can be seen as a cost cutting measure. As I said above, the most likely reason for stopping it was because so few people used it. We didn't, and neither does any British/Thai couple we know.

Whether you used it or not made absolutely no difference the legality of a Thai marriage in the UK; under the Foreign Marriages Act 1892 (as amended) any marriage which is legal in the country where it took place is also legal in the UK.

Which is what the document I linked to earlier issued by the British embassy says.

All of which is irrelevant to this topic because the question isn't whether or not the UK recognises the marriage, which it does, but whether or not Italy does!

It appears from what has been posted above that it does (the Italian requirements for an Italian to marry outside of Italy are irrelevant; the OP is not Italian and even if he were, once the marriage has taken place Italy recognises it).

The freedom of movement directive says

Article 2

For the purposes of this Directive:

1. ‘Union citizen’ means any person having the nationality of a Member State;

2. ‘family member’ means:
(a) the spouse (of the Union citizen)

Article 3

1. This Directive shall apply to all Union citizens who move to or reside in a Member State other than that of which they are a national, and to their family members as defined in point 2 of Article 2 who accompany or join them.

Article 5

1. Without prejudice to the provisions on travel documents applicable to national border controls, Member States shall grant Union citizens leave to enter their territory with a valid identity card or passport and shall grant family members who are not nationals of a Member State leave to enter their territory with a valid passport.

No entry visa or equivalent formality may be imposed on Union citizens.

2. Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.

Member States shall grant such persons every facility to obtain the necessary visas. Such visas shall be issued free of charge as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure.

(7by7 emphasis)

I'm no lawyer; but it seems to me that by insisting on a piece of paper which does not exist, the Italians (and Spanish) are at the very least in breach of the part I have highlighted!

All that should be required to satisfy the Italians, or any other EEA state, that a couple are married is their original marriage certificate with a suitable translation, which for the Schengen states needs to be certified/legalised by the Thai MFA.

Any state or embassy which demands more than this is in breach of the directive.

I suggest to the OP that rather than moaning here about the British embassy, who have absolutely no say in the matter, that if he cannot get satisfaction from the Italian embassy he complains to SOLVIT.

He can also seek assistance and advice from europa.eu/eurights

Members here have done both in the past and had positive results.

As for bringing UKVI into it; they have even less to do with this than the British embassy; and the British embassy have nothing to do with it at all!

Edited October 27, 2015 by 7by7