Russian airliner crashes in central Sinai - Egyptian PM

[MaxYakov]

Now the jury is out lets have a speculative vote on the cause. Based on everything ive read, heard and seen and the fact i was let on board with a scuba diving knife in my hand luggage at sharm, I'm voting it's a bomb taken on board.

foul play.

they either confess to gross negligence (the pilot called his wife on that)

or it was a planned event (hostile attack from a bomb).

either way....it's foul. So sad that a broken plane was sent up in the air. The fact that it was broken/in horrible condition, makes it hard to look at the alternatives.

cat is pretty much out of the bag. Nobody believes the pilot was inept...just had not choices in the matter (would not it be great if a russian pilot could refuse to fly a broken aircraft)? I read that this airplane had chronic engine problems...and a botched tail repair job. Both problems being critical.

Happy that...even in Thailand....a pilot can delay/abort a flight if he had knowledge that his plane was unsafe. Insisting on flying a broken aircraft is beyond belief. He was ordered to continue on with the flight. Now this.

"I read that this airplane had chronic engine problems...and a botched tail repair job. Both problems being critical."

Don't be selfish and share those sources with us (link or links), please.

[slipperylobster]

Now the jury is out lets have a speculative vote on the cause. Based on everything ive read, heard and seen and the fact i was let on board with a scuba diving knife in my hand luggage at sharm, I'm voting it's a bomb taken on board.

foul play.

they either confess to gross negligence (the pilot called his wife on that)

or it was a planned event (hostile attack from a bomb).

either way....it's foul. So sad that a broken plane was sent up in the air. The fact that it was broken/in horrible condition, makes it hard to look at the alternatives.

cat is pretty much out of the bag. Nobody believes the pilot was inept...just had not choices in the matter (would not it be great if a russian pilot could refuse to fly a broken aircraft)? I read that this airplane had chronic engine problems...and a botched tail repair job. Both problems being critical.

Happy that...even in Thailand....a pilot can delay/abort a flight if he had knowledge that his plane was unsafe. Insisting on flying a broken aircraft is beyond belief. He was ordered to continue on with the flight. Now this.

"I read that this airplane had chronic engine problems...and a botched tail repair job. Both problems being critical."

Don't be selfish and share those sources with us (link or links), please.

I don't feel the need to research this for you. Just go back and read it yourself.

1. Pilot called his wife showing concern about the state of this aircraft.

2. Aircraft had an incident concerning damage to the tail, and that has been a key issue.

3. "Several" times the engines had failed to start on this aircraft.

Seek and you shall find.....

I will give you some clues...as it was pretty easy. The following links should assist your search for knowlege. Every single source I read belabored the fact that the pilot called in with technical difficulties, just before the crash....and that he had called his wife concerning the state of the aircraft before liftoff. Wow...where have you been?

tail..........http://www.tert.am/en/news/2015/11/02/russian-jet-crash/1833194

phone call..........http://www.startribune.com/the-latest-egypt-confirms-russian-plane-crashes-in-sinai/339112201/

"shoddy maintenance history....Russian airlines became infamous for poor safety in the early years following the 1991 collapse of the Soviet Union, which caused severe financial troubles and regulatory disorder. Although accidents have diminished in recent years, crashes persist, many of them blamed on human error"

read more: http://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/1.683368

The engine failures is on the list of maintenance issues with this aircraft in the past. Russia "says" everything was great and "fixed"......we must doubt that....

personally, I think they were at risk from sabotage/onboard explosion...but doesn't all the above facts make in confusing? Most people think so.

I don't think RT wants to say anything but "aiplane good...pilot good"...

crash "bad".

Edited November 3, 2015 by slipperylobster

[smotherb]

Bomb

Blown to smithereens.

If blown to smithereens in the air, it would not be all in the same spot on the ground.

[MaxYakov]

Now the jury is out lets have a speculative vote on the cause. Based on everything ive read, heard and seen and the fact i was let on board with a scuba diving knife in my hand luggage at sharm, I'm voting it's a bomb taken on board.

foul play.

they either confess to gross negligence (the pilot called his wife on that)

or it was a planned event (hostile attack from a bomb).

either way....it's foul. So sad that a broken plane was sent up in the air. The fact that it was broken/in horrible condition, makes it hard to look at the alternatives.

cat is pretty much out of the bag. Nobody believes the pilot was inept...just had not choices in the matter (would not it be great if a russian pilot could refuse to fly a broken aircraft)? I read that this airplane had chronic engine problems...and a botched tail repair job. Both problems being critical.

Happy that...even in Thailand....a pilot can delay/abort a flight if he had knowledge that his plane was unsafe. Insisting on flying a broken aircraft is beyond belief. He was ordered to continue on with the flight. Now this.

"I read that this airplane had chronic engine problems...and a botched tail repair job. Both problems being critical."

Don't be selfish and share those sources with us (link or links), please.

I don't feel the need to research this for you. Just go back and read it yourself.

1. Pilot called his wife showing concern about the state of this aircraft.

2. Aircraft had an incident concerning damage to the tail, and that has been a key issue.

3. "Several" times the engines had failed to start on this aircraft.

Seek and you shall find.....

I will give you some clues...as it was pretty easy. The following links should assist your search for knowlege. Every single source I read belabored the fact that the pilot called in with technical difficulties, just before the crash....and that he had called his wife concerning the state of the aircraft before liftoff. Wow...where have you been?

tail..........http://www.tert.am/en/news/2015/11/02/russian-jet-crash/1833194

phone call..........http://www.startribune.com/the-latest-egypt-confirms-russian-plane-crashes-in-sinai/339112201/

"shoddy maintenance history....Russian airlines became infamous for poor safety in the early years following the 1991 collapse of the Soviet Union, which caused severe financial troubles and regulatory disorder. Although accidents have diminished in recent years, crashes persist, many of them blamed on human error"

read more: http://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/1.683368

The engine failures is on the list of maintenance issues with this aircraft in the past. Russia "says" everything was great and "fixed"......we must doubt that....

personally, I think they were at risk from sabotage/onboard explosion...but doesn't all the above facts make in confusing? Most people think so.

I don't think RT wants to say anything but "aiplane good...pilot good"...

crash "bad".

Yes, the tert.am article you provided is an obvious denial by Kogalymavia and contains outright factual errors such as this:

"A passenger plane like the Airbus A321 that crashed over the weekend in the Sinai Peninsula cannot be destroyed in mid-flight because of some technical system failure, the reason for a breakup could only be due to a mechanical impact, the deputy general director of the ill-fated airlines said."

Of course there are several examples of where poor design (Comet, Boeing 747/L1011 cargo door latch), improper repair (Japan Airlines 123) and unnoticed metal fatigue (Aloha Flight 243) have caused in-flight disintegration of the fuselage. And these examples didn't even involve Russian airlines or aircraft! Any critical thinker with a minimal knowledge of aviation crash history could see the fault in the above and other statements by Kogalymavia or similar statements by anyone else.

I doubt at flight time whether anyone on the planet, including the pilot, had any idea that it would disintegrate on that or any flight. And we still don't know (or have not been told) the exact reason for the fuselage failure. Nor do we know exactly what the tail strike damage and repairs were and who did them.

We also do not the exact complaints by the co-pilot (not the pilot) to his wife in the Star Tribune article link you provided. So who do you think was calling the shots as to the decision to the aircraft into the air that day or did they vote on the issue and the pilot (Captain?) won the vote 1 to 1?

I'm waiting for the investigation report, providing I'm still breathing when (and if) they produce one to see if it even remotely resembles a Kogalymavia-style smokescreen/cover-up.

PS: I'm probably just as cynical as you w/r Russian aviation having flown Aeroflot SFO to Moscow several times on IL86s. I flew Moscow to St. Petersburg only once, however on one of their small, regional jets. On return, I took the train back to Moscow, desiring not to be potentially in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Edited November 3, 2015 by MaxYakov

[Chicog]

I'm waiting for the investigation report, providing I'm still breathing when (and if) they produce one to see if it even remotely resembles a Kogalymavia-style smokescreen/cover-up.

I think because of the political ramifications, as well as the insurance ones, there will be pressure to release a quick interim report if there are any security issues here.

[Chicog]

CNN reporting US source saying heat flash reported at time of incident but not a missile. And only small.

[JHolmesJr]

Bomb

Blown to smithereens.

If blown to smithereens in the air, it would not be all in the same spot on the ground.

Foul play?

I reckon these days one does not need a huge explosive device….even a relatively minor one placed near some critical flying component can cause a crisis.

[slipperylobster]

foul play.

they either confess to gross negligence (the pilot called his wife on that)

or it was a planned event (hostile attack from a bomb).

either way....it's foul. So sad that a broken plane was sent up in the air. The fact that it was broken/in horrible condition, makes it hard to look at the alternatives.

cat is pretty much out of the bag. Nobody believes the pilot was inept...just had not choices in the matter (would not it be great if a russian pilot could refuse to fly a broken aircraft)? I read that this airplane had chronic engine problems...and a botched tail repair job. Both problems being critical.

Happy that...even in Thailand....a pilot can delay/abort a flight if he had knowledge that his plane was unsafe. Insisting on flying a broken aircraft is beyond belief. He was ordered to continue on with the flight. Now this.

"I read that this airplane had chronic engine problems...and a botched tail repair job. Both problems being critical."

Don't be selfish and share those sources with us (link or links), please.

I don't feel the need to research this for you. Just go back and read it yourself.

1. Pilot called his wife showing concern about the state of this aircraft.

2. Aircraft had an incident concerning damage to the tail, and that has been a key issue.

3. "Several" times the engines had failed to start on this aircraft.

Seek and you shall find.....

I will give you some clues...as it was pretty easy. The following links should assist your search for knowlege. Every single source I read belabored the fact that the pilot called in with technical difficulties, just before the crash....and that he had called his wife concerning the state of the aircraft before liftoff. Wow...where have you been?

tail..........http://www.tert.am/en/news/2015/11/02/russian-jet-crash/1833194

phone call..........http://www.startribune.com/the-latest-egypt-confirms-russian-plane-crashes-in-sinai/339112201/

"shoddy maintenance history....Russian airlines became infamous for poor safety in the early years following the 1991 collapse of the Soviet Union, which caused severe financial troubles and regulatory disorder. Although accidents have diminished in recent years, crashes persist, many of them blamed on human error"

read more: http://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/1.683368

The engine failures is on the list of maintenance issues with this aircraft in the past. Russia "says" everything was great and "fixed"......we must doubt that....

personally, I think they were at risk from sabotage/onboard explosion...but doesn't all the above facts make in confusing? Most people think so.

I don't think RT wants to say anything but "aiplane good...pilot good"...

crash "bad".

Yes, the tert.am article you provided is an obvious denial by Kogalymavia and contains outright factual errors such as this:

"A passenger plane like the Airbus A321 that crashed over the weekend in the Sinai Peninsula cannot be destroyed in mid-flight because of some technical system failure, the reason for a breakup could only be due to a mechanical impact, the deputy general director of the ill-fated airlines said."

Of course there are several examples of where poor design (Comet, Boeing 747/L1011 cargo door latch), improper repair (Japan Airlines 123) and unnoticed metal fatigue (Aloha Flight 243) have caused in-flight disintegration of the fuselage. And these examples didn't even involve Russian airlines or aircraft! Any critical thinker with a minimal knowledge of aviation crash history could see the fault in the above and other statements by Kogalymavia or similar statements by anyone else.

I doubt at flight time whether anyone on the planet, including the pilot, had any idea that it would disintegrate on that or any flight. And we still don't know (or have not been told) the exact reason for the fuselage failure. Nor do we know exactly what the tail strike damage and repairs were and who did them.

We also do not the exact complaints by the co-pilot (not the pilot) to his wife in the Star Tribune article link you provided. So who do you think was calling the shots as to the decision to the aircraft into the air that day or did they vote on the issue and the pilot (Captain?) won the vote 1 to 1?

I'm waiting for the investigation report, providing I'm still breathing when (and if) they produce one to see if it even remotely resembles a Kogalymavia-style smokescreen/cover-up.

PS: I'm probably just as cynical as you w/r Russian aviation having flown Aeroflot SFO to Moscow several times on IL86s. I flew Moscow to St. Petersburg only once, however on one of their small, regional jets. On return, I took the train back to Moscow, desiring not to be potentially in the wrong place at the wrong time.

fair enough...your points well taken. It could go either way...mechanical or malicious.

My opinion is that it would not matter if the copilot got outvoted by the pilot...as the decision to proceed (regardless) was probably made higher up than both. We really don't know that part...only that the "copilot" called his wife...and was frustrated about the condition of the plane.

It does seem as if I was pushing for a mechanical failure...shoddy airplane....but actually I am prone towards the idea that there was an explosive device. Tail probably just didn't up and fall by itself. First reports indicated it may have been structural.

[phazey]

http://tass.ru/en/world/833666

They may have found debris not associated with the Airbus.

[Chicog]

No real surprise there.

Egypt plane: 'Sounds uncharacteristic of routine flight' heard before crash

'Sounds uncharacteristic of routine flight' were heard on cockpit recordings taken moments before a Russian airliner crashed in Egypt's Sinai Peninsula, killing all on board, according to local media reports.
An Interfax source reportedly told Russian media the unusual sounds preceded the moment that the aircraft disappeared from radar screens.
It follows claims by airline officials on Monday that suggested an "impact on the plane" caused the crash.
Alexander Smirnov, deputy general director of Kogalymavia, said "no technical fault" could have caused the flight KGL9268 to break up mid-air on Saturday.
The Kremlin has refused to rule out terrorism as a possible cause but the Egyptian President has said any claims the plane crash was linked to IS action was "propaganda".

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2015-11-03/unusual-sounds-heard-from-planes-cockpit-before-crash/?

Edited November 3, 2015 by Chicog

[phazey]

Pathologists in St Petersburg separated victim's bodys/parts into two groups -- those seated in front and those towards the tail. Those who seated in front sustained mainly chest, stomach, legs, arms injures, internal organs tear. Deaths mainly resulted from loss of blood, shock and brain injures.

Those who seated in the rear were found to sustain explosion injures and heavy burns (more than 90%). Experts attributed this to fuel tank explosion or explosion device detonation. Also a lot of metal pieces and aircraft skin parts were found in body's of those seated in the rear.

Source

http://lenta.ru/news/2015/11/03/results/

[Tywais]

A post removed with no link to source of a news quote. Quoting a source must follow fair use rules for copyright reasons and that includes a link to the source.

[slipperylobster]

Passenger manifest time....any suspicious characters onboard?

[dcutman]

Re re re confirmed a 0 chance this was caused by a missile strike.

Why is a U.S. "intelligence agency" (CIA)?) so determined to rule out any possibility of a missile strike?

A better question is why are they so interested in giving their opinion? This plane has nothing to do with the U.S., and no Americans on board. If the U.S. offered to assist with the investigation, it would have come from the FAA, not a U.S. "spook" agency.

US: Russian plane crash may have been caused by explosion

Analysis of plane's black boxes to begin Tuesday; airline rejects theory that earlier tail strike caused crash

An infrared satellite owned by the United States detected a heat flash while it was in orbit above Egypt's Sinai peninsula, a senior defense official told NBC News late Monday.

Officials are analyzing data from the satellite to ascertain whether the flash occurred in the air or as the plane hit the ground.

According to the official, analysts believe that an explosion could have occurred on the plane in the air, caused by the fuel tank or possibly a bomb, but that there is no indication that a surface-to-air missile caused the fatal crash, said NBC.

I.Véricourt/S.malfatto (AFP)"Russian jetliner crashes in the Sinai"

The satellite's infrared imaging systems would have also captured the heat trail from a missile.

"The speculation that this plane was brought down by a missile is off the table," the official said.

http://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/91164-151102-russian-airline-executive-external-factor-brought-down-plane

Edited November 3, 2015 by dcutman

[MaxYakov]

Re re re confirmed a 0 chance this was caused by a missile strike.

Why is a U.S. "intelligence agency" (CIA)?) so determined to rule out any possibility of a missile strike?

A better question is why are they so interested in giving their opinion? This plane has nothing to do with the U.S., and no Americans on board. If the U.S. offered to assist with the investigation, it would have come from the FAA, not a U.S. "spook" agency.

US: Russian plane crash may have been caused by explosion

Analysis of plane's black boxes to begin Tuesday; airline rejects theory that earlier tail strike caused crash

An infrared satellite owned by the United States detected a heat flash while it was in orbit above Egypt's Sinai peninsula, a senior defense official told NBC News late Monday.

Officials are analyzing data from the satellite to ascertain whether the flash occurred in the air or as the plane hit the ground.

According to the official, analysts believe that an explosion could have occurred on the plane in the air, caused by the fuel tank or possibly a bomb, but that there is no indication that a surface-to-air missile caused the fatal crash, said NBC.

I.Véricourt/S.malfatto (AFP)"Russian jetliner crashes in the Sinai"

The satellite's infrared imaging systems would have also captured the heat trail from a missile.

"The speculation that this plane was brought down by a missile is off the table," the official said.

http://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/91164-151102-russian-airline-executive-external-factor-brought-down-plane

The big question I have is why are you so concerned about the CIA's sharing information they may have about this event that nobody else has (assuming they actually have provided it, officially).

The CIA's website has a wealth of information on every country on the planet and they even publicize some of it - cia.gov

Edited November 3, 2015 by MaxYakov

[JHolmesJr]

Do you know you can make a molotov cocktail on a flying aircraft….and specially an aircraft with russkies on board.

One vodka bottle, one handkerchief and one lighter is all it takes.

[scubascuba3]

Its all gone Pete Tong.

Sinai plane crash: Bomb fears prompt Sharm flights suspension - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34724604

[slipperylobster]

British and American news reporting bomb likely.

May have been an inside job (Egyptian Security breach at the departure airport). Connected to IS affiliates working with Egyptian security personnel???

Leaning towards a planted explosive device onboard..

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/04/africa/russian-plane-crash-egypt-sinai/index.html

Russian news sources are suppressing information....russian public frustrated.

R/T, Tass, Sputnik.... slow in reporting progress.

Edited November 4, 2015 by slipperylobster

[Usernames]

British and American news reporting bomb likely.

May have been an inside job (Egyptian Security breach at the departure airport). Connected to IS affiliates working with Egyptian security personnel???

Leaning towards a planted explosive device onboard..

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/04/africa/russian-plane-crash-egypt-sinai/index.html

Russian news sources are suppressing information....russian public frustrated.

R/T, Tass, Sputnik.... slow in reporting progress.

Weren't the Malaysians torn to pieces for providing insufficient info with their lost plane? Here, the Egyptians and Russians haven't given out anything, no press conferences, and nobody is complaining.

[craigt3365]

British and American news reporting bomb likely.

May have been an inside job (Egyptian Security breach at the departure airport). Connected to IS affiliates working with Egyptian security personnel???

Leaning towards a planted explosive device onboard..

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/04/africa/russian-plane-crash-egypt-sinai/index.html

Russian news sources are suppressing information....russian public frustrated.

R/T, Tass, Sputnik.... slow in reporting progress.

Weren't the Malaysians torn to pieces for providing insufficient info with their lost plane? Here, the Egyptians and Russians haven't given out anything, no press conferences, and nobody is complaining.

The Irish are involved as the plane was registered there. What I heard yesterday is they should know by today, maybe tomorrow, if it was a bomb. The analyst said it's relatively easy to test for residue, but takes a few days. Perhaps more due to the remote location of the crash?

But impossible to hide what's really going on. Too many are involved and too many are onsite.

[JHolmesJr]

Weren't the Malaysians torn to pieces for providing insufficient info with their lost plane? Here, the Egyptians and Russians haven't given out anything, no press conferences, and nobody is complaining.

The mainland chinese are a lot more rambunctious lot than the stoic appearing russians...

[slipperylobster]

British and American news reporting bomb likely.

May have been an inside job (Egyptian Security breach at the departure airport). Connected to IS affiliates working with Egyptian security personnel???

Leaning towards a planted explosive device onboard..

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/04/africa/russian-plane-crash-egypt-sinai/index.html

Russian news sources are suppressing information....russian public frustrated.

R/T, Tass, Sputnik.... slow in reporting progress.

Weren't the Malaysians torn to pieces for providing insufficient info with their lost plane? Here, the Egyptians and Russians haven't given out anything, no press conferences, and nobody is complaining.

actually, everyone is complaining...in russia....

[JHolmesJr]

Smart move by brits to stop all flights but lightning rarely strikes the same place twice.

[scubascuba3]

Smart move by brits to stop all flights but lightning rarely strikes the same place twice.

Apart from the Bali bombs

[slipperylobster]

Last news...brit and us pretty much have intel on communications (prior to the flight) which confirms an attack was made. Black box pretty much nails it. Brits and US had to "convince" russia that it was an attack. Egypt wants the "intel" which is obviously classified. I don't expect to ever see the evidence printed, in order to protect sources.

Russia had no clues...whatsoever. Their sources and news items are pretty much dismal...at best.

After finally convincing the Russians that they have been "targeted"... Putin will now show the world what kind of leader he really is. Will he "track down" the perpetrators...or just pull out and lick the wound. I hope he does find a way to settle this... however, I am glad he is now listening to reason, and is limiting commercial flights to this area.

Edited November 7, 2015 by slipperylobster

[h90]

Waiting on the cause....no reports yet of reasons for the crash.

I would not rule out an attack....seems too sureal.

If it was...then I suspect it is only the beginning.

If some terrorists moderate rebels shot down the airplane with some anti airplane weapon supplied by the USA, than we can start digging bunkers......

Lets hope it was technical problem or the pilots fault.....

shades of the ukraine? A bit of a leap.

I doubt seriously if the USA would support that, especially now that they are agreeing on a cease fire.

Didn't mean ukraine....McCain told USA should deliver anti-aircraft missles to Syria. Several politicians in Ukraine said to deliver these to ISIS to give Russia a bloody nose.....No one did so far, but it might be something that makes Russia really angry.

[craigt3365]

If some terrorists moderate rebels shot down the airplane with some anti airplane weapon supplied by the USA, than we can start digging bunkers......

Lets hope it was technical problem or the pilots fault.....

shades of the ukraine? A bit of a leap.

I doubt seriously if the USA would support that, especially now that they are agreeing on a cease fire.

Didn't mean ukraine....McCain told USA should deliver anti-aircraft missles to Syria. Several politicians in Ukraine said to deliver these to ISIS to give Russia a bloody nose.....No one did so far, but it might be something that makes Russia really angry.

The US has been against this for some time, but as pointed out here, there are many different channels to get this type of equipment:

http://www.voanews.com/content/advanced-weapons-may-reach-syrian-rebels-despite-us-concerns/3023843.html

Syrian rebel groups have been desperate to get their hands on the advanced weaponry for years, first to counter the Syrian regime’s warplanes and more recently to fight back against the Russian bombing campaign. In 2013, some MANPADS did appear on the battlefield and Qatar was widely believed to have been the supplier, although this was denied by Doha.

There have even been persistent rumors about some Chinese made MANPADs reaching Syria via the black market, although military and intelligence officials have said there are no signs of any widespread use.

Either way, it'd be terrible if a plane from any country is shot down. Other than perhaps one from Syria. LOL

[Chicog]

Smart move by brits to stop all flights but lightning rarely strikes the same place twice.

Actually planting two bombs so you can use the second one to get first responders is almost the norm in the Middle East.