Fighting Dogs

[Old Man River]

I have two female dogs. Every time one sees the other, it is world war three. To say they don't get along is an understatement. We got the little one first (poodle), but the golden retriever knows she is bigger and wants to be the "boss." People have told me that it would have worked out better if one was an alpha male (whatever that is). Now, we are thinking of breeding the golden retriever and keeping one of the male pups, which would give us three dogs, one male and two females. Would a male dog (albeit the youngest) bring peace to my dog family, or would this be a mistake?

Thanks in advance.

OMR

[Vespa]

I have two female dogs. Every time one sees the other, it is world war three. To say they don't get along is an understatement. We got the little one first (poodle), but the golden retriever knows she is bigger and wants to be the "boss." People have told me that it would have worked out better if one was an alpha male (whatever that is). Now, we are thinking of breeding the golden retriever and keeping one of the male pups, which would give us three dogs, one male and two females. Would a male dog (albeit the youngest) bring peace to my dog family, or would this be a mistake?

Thanks in advance.

OMR

You need to establish harmony.

[Old Man River]

I have two female dogs. Every time one sees the other, it is world war three. To say they don't get along is an understatement. We got the little one first (poodle), but the golden retriever knows she is bigger and wants to be the "boss." People have told me that it would have worked out better if one was an alpha male (whatever that is). Now, we are thinking of breeding the golden retriever and keeping one of the male pups, which would give us three dogs, one male and two females. Would a male dog (albeit the youngest) bring peace to my dog family, or would this be a mistake?

Thanks in advance.

OMR

You need to establish harmony.

Thanks Vespa, but it won't work for us. The poodle has been spayed and I sure as heck don't want to see the male pup doing that to his mother.

[bina]

size doent govern who is top dog; its what the dog thinks and what he/she was since the day of birth; dominance/submissiveness is developed in the first month of life in the litter....

1/ no toys since even best doggie friends will fight over toys; we had two boxers and ten balls and one would always hog and protect all the balls (toys are just during play time per dog)

2/ always always pet the dominant dog first, when u greet the dogs, it seems unfair but just like u first greet the boss and then the underworker, thats dog life U HAVE JTO ACKNOWLEDGE THE DOMINANT BITCH FIRST AND ALWAYS, IF ITS THE POODLE, SO BE IT; SIZE DOES NOT MATTER; READ THE SIGNS OF THE DOG

3/ feed separate bowls, separate areas, only at certain times: the dominant boxer in our family would check and taste from both bowls and then allow the 2nd one to eat

4/ favorite places on sofa etc... dominant always wins , tough life,

5/dont interfere with the squabbling by taking the submissive dogs' side; leave them alone go away (as long as death is not imminant ), when u arent there, the squabbling will lighten up

6/ dont reprimand... try distraction/diversion techniques...

how do they get along away from the house?

a third dog will take sides and make life more interesting for u but the hierarchy stays the same, males usually wont beat up a female too much

females fight more fiercely about home(nest./offspring protection instinct which is why females are often better home guard dogs, they dont cover huge amounts of territory) and give up less; males more about large territory and give in easier to eachother (females can and will fight almost to large amounts of damage; males usually give in according to dominant/submissive behavior)

ALPHA (DOMINANT) YOU ARE THE ALPHA DOG (TOP DOG) IN THE FAMILY, NOT EITHER OF THE DOGS; THEY ARE IN THE HIERARCHY BELOW U (I WOULD HOPE); alpha females rule often over an alpha male. our two boxers took a year to settle in (he was new, but the same age as her and rough/tough, food aggressive and had 'issues'-- a rescue); we learned that we greet him first, if not, he beat the bitch up (lots of growling and saliva but no holes); same with food, bed, toys... with us, both were sweetness and light...

she suffered a bit from him, but when he was dying, she slept with him, licked and cleaned him, and when he died, she looked for him for three weeks or more and has noticeably aged ... a true love/hate relationship

[Old Man River]

size doent govern who is top dog; its what the dog thinks and what he/she was since the day of birth; dominance/submissiveness is developed in the first month of life in the litter....

1/ no toys since even best doggie friends will fight over toys; we had two boxers and ten balls and one would always hog and protect all the balls (toys are just during play time per dog)

2/ always always pet the dominant dog first, when u greet the dogs, it seems unfair but just like u first greet the boss and then the underworker, thats dog life U HAVE JTO ACKNOWLEDGE THE DOMINANT BITCH FIRST AND ALWAYS, IF ITS THE POODLE, SO BE IT; SIZE DOES NOT MATTER; READ THE SIGNS OF THE DOG

3/ feed separate bowls, separate areas, only at certain times: the dominant boxer in our family would check and taste from both bowls and then allow the 2nd one to eat

4/ favorite places on sofa etc... dominant always wins , tough life,

5/dont interfere with the squabbling by taking the submissive dogs' side; leave them alone go away (as long as death is not imminant ), when u arent there, the squabbling will lighten up

6/ dont reprimand... try distraction/diversion techniques...

how do they get along away from the house?

a third dog will take sides and make life more interesting for u but the hierarchy stays the same, males usually wont beat up a female too much

females fight more fiercely about home(nest./offspring protection instinct which is why females are often better home guard dogs, they dont cover huge amounts of territory) and give up less; males more about large territory and give in easier to eachother (females can and will fight almost to large amounts of damage; males usually give in according to dominant/submissive behavior)

ALPHA (DOMINANT) YOU ARE THE ALPHA DOG (TOP DOG) IN THE FAMILY, NOT EITHER OF THE DOGS; THEY ARE IN THE HIERARCHY BELOW U (I WOULD HOPE); alpha females rule often over an alpha male. our two boxers took a year to settle in (he was new, but the same age as her and rough/tough, food aggressive and had 'issues'-- a rescue); we learned that we greet him first, if not, he beat the bitch up (lots of growling and saliva but no holes); same with food, bed, toys... with us, both were sweetness and light...

she suffered a bit from him, but when he was dying, she slept with him, licked and cleaned him, and when he died, she looked for him for three weeks or more and has noticeably aged ... a true love/hate relationship

Good morning Bina. Thanks for all the info. You should join Cesar Millan on Dog Whisperer. Right now, we keep the dogs separated. The poodle gets the run of the house and the golden outside only. They eat separately and sleep separately. When we put them together, I think the golden just wants to play with the poodle, but for sure, the poodle does not like it. Although both appear to be dominant, I once did see the poodle back the golden up, which surprised me, so perhaps the poodle is the dominant one here.

From your message, it looks like the male golden pup will be submissive to both his mother and the poodle, so at least he won't add to the situation. I guess we will have to put the poodle and the golden together and leave them so they learn to live with each other, but we remain fearful that the golden will hurt the poodle due to the size difference.

In our family, the alpha "dog" is our daughter who keeps convincing my wife and I to get her more dogs.

[endure]

A good book to read if you can find it is; "The Truth About Dogs: An Inquiry Into the Ancestry, Social Conventions, Mental Habits, and Moral Fiber of Canis Familiaris by Stephen Budiansky"

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/dogs/evolution.html

[Old Man River]

A good book to read if you can find it is; "The Truth About Dogs: An Inquiry Into the Ancestry, Social Conventions, Mental Habits, and Moral Fiber of Canis Familiaris by Stephen Budiansky"

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/dogs/evolution.html

Thanks. It seems to be in stock at Amazon. I need all the help I can get to outsmart my dogs.

[thaigerd]

Perfect Bina!

We had first our Rotti(male) than got the Boxer(female).

First it looked like the little Boxer lady takes over the dominance, my wife could not understand.....

After a while they found their own way who is the number one.

Now they are a great couple!

But I make sure that I am the Alpha!

The Boxer takes a nappy on the Rotti...

and wife rests on the Rotti as well:

Gerd

[sbk]

We have had this problem in the past, usually when a new dog has come in and challenged the dominant female. (5 dogs, 4 females).

The older dog who has been there longer is almost always the dominant dog, and I absolutely agree with Bina's advice. You should ALWAYS greet, feed, pet the dominant female first (and it sounds like its the poodle). Make sure the golden knows she is second.

[Old Man River]

We have had this problem in the past, usually when a new dog has come in and challenged the dominant female. (5 dogs, 4 females).

The older dog who has been there longer is almost always the dominant dog, and I absolutely agree with Bina's advice. You should ALWAYS greet, feed, pet the dominant female first (and it sounds like its the poodle). Make sure the golden knows she is second.

Thanks, I knew I couldn't be the only one with this problem. It will be more of an issue when we get the second golden retriever, but we won't make mistakes with those two. As for the poodle, since she and the golden are pretty much separated during the day, the only way I guess is for us to put them into the yard together and leave them alone and let them figure it out. My money is also on the poodle.

[elfe]

sometimes nothing helps to get two dogs who hate each other together. i have two females here, they hated eachother from the start. i tried everything nothing worked. after each fight they were calm and licking their wounds for a week or two and then the whole thing started over and over again. i keep them separated for most of the time, especially when i'm not there. most of my other dogs get along well, but there are always some who just can't stand each other. sorry i don't have any other advice as been given from others already.especially females seem to never give up their fights.

[Nienke]

size doent govern who is top dog; its what the dog thinks and what he/she was since the day of birth; dominance/submissiveness is developed in the first month of life in the litter....

1/ no toys since even best doggie friends will fight over toys; we had two boxers and ten balls and one would always hog and protect all the balls (toys are just during play time per dog)

2/ always always pet the dominant dog first, when u greet the dogs, it seems unfair but just like u first greet the boss and then the underworker, thats dog life U HAVE JTO ACKNOWLEDGE THE DOMINANT BITCH FIRST AND ALWAYS, IF ITS THE POODLE, SO BE IT; SIZE DOES NOT MATTER; READ THE SIGNS OF THE DOG

3/ feed separate bowls, separate areas, only at certain times: the dominant boxer in our family would check and taste from both bowls and then allow the 2nd one to eat

4/ favorite places on sofa etc... dominant always wins , tough life,

5/dont interfere with the squabbling by taking the submissive dogs' side; leave them alone go away (as long as death is not imminant ), when u arent there, the squabbling will lighten up

6/ dont reprimand... try distraction/diversion techniques...

how do they get along away from the house?

a third dog will take sides and make life more interesting for u but the hierarchy stays the same, males usually wont beat up a female too much

females fight more fiercely about home(nest./offspring protection instinct which is why females are often better home guard dogs, they dont cover huge amounts of territory) and give up less; males more about large territory and give in easier to eachother (females can and will fight almost to large amounts of damage; males usually give in according to dominant/submissive behavior)

ALPHA (DOMINANT) YOU ARE THE ALPHA DOG (TOP DOG) IN THE FAMILY, NOT EITHER OF THE DOGS; THEY ARE IN THE HIERARCHY BELOW U (I WOULD HOPE); alpha females rule often over an alpha male. our two boxers took a year to settle in (he was new, but the same age as her and rough/tough, food aggressive and had 'issues'-- a rescue); we learned that we greet him first, if not, he beat the bitch up (lots of growling and saliva but no holes); same with food, bed, toys... with us, both were sweetness and light...

she suffered a bit from him, but when he was dying, she slept with him, licked and cleaned him, and when he died, she looked for him for three weeks or more and has noticeably aged ... a true love/hate relationship

Good morning Bina. Thanks for all the info. You should join Cesar Millan on Dog Whisperer. Right now, we keep the dogs separated. The poodle gets the run of the house and the golden outside only. They eat separately and sleep separately. When we put them together, I think the golden just wants to play with the poodle, but for sure, the poodle does not like it. Although both appear to be dominant, I once did see the poodle back the golden up, which surprised me, so perhaps the poodle is the dominant one here.

From your message, it looks like the male golden pup will be submissive to both his mother and the poodle, so at least he won't add to the situation. I guess we will have to put the poodle and the golden together and leave them so they learn to live with each other, but we remain fearful that the golden will hurt the poodle due to the size difference.

In our family, the alpha "dog" is our daughter who keeps convincing my wife and I to get her more dogs.

Hi there,

Since a week again on the net and I come across this thread.

To what Bina already suggest I would add the following:

1) For being able to solve a behavior problem the history of the dog/s plus the interaction between owner/s and dog/s needs to be reviewed first. Therefore, just a couple of questions to think about: Did you favor the pup above the poodle (just because golden puppies are horribly adorable). Did you ever reprimanded the poodle when she showed 'aggressive' behavior to the golden pup (i.e. corrected the golden through growling or snapping)? Did you interfere when the golden played too rough with the poodle and in what way? How much attention did the golden pup receive and how much the poodle in the last few months? Who got the food first (the golden as many of them are like vacuum cleaners who believe they are never fed, or the poodle who politely was sitting and waiting until you put it down). How obedient are both dogs?

2) It is important to understand the body language of the dog/s when the behavior problem shows

Normally, during a behavior consultation I would like to see the dog/s myself to be able to understand the bodylanguage (and that's not only tail and ears up as in this case, there is much more to it). During such an observation I also look at the interaction between dog/s and owner/s and/or care-taker/s as. It does happen that owner/s interpreted their interaction with their dog/s or the bodylangauge of the dog/s (slightly) different from what I observe.

In the case of fighting dogs, it is also important to understand WHEN the fights occur. or when did the first fights occured. Was the owner around? How were/are they when they were/are together with no humans around?

As it is so important to understand what is really going on between all pack members, it is difficult and often dangerous to give advice with such little information and without being able to observe all members involved, as is the case between the poodle and the golden. As Bina already mentioned females fights can be very severe, they can even fight till death. If advice is misunderstood, (partly) incorrect it can lead to intensification of teh faights with fatal results.

In case with the poodle and the golden I do advice you to seek professional help or keep them seperate forever.

[Old Man River]

[quote name='Nienke'

Hi there,

Since a week again on the net and I come across this thread.

To what Bina already suggest I would add the following:

1) For being able to solve a behavior problem the history of the dog/s plus the interaction between owner/s and dog/s needs to be reviewed first. Therefore, just a couple of questions to think about: Did you favor the pup above the poodle (just because golden puppies are horribly adorable). Did you ever reprimanded the poodle when she showed 'aggressive' behavior to the golden pup (i.e. corrected the golden through growling or snapping)? Did you interfere when the golden played too rough with the poodle and in what way? How much attention did the golden pup receive and how much the poodle in the last few months? Who got the food first (the golden as many of them are like vacuum cleaners who believe they are never fed, or the poodle who politely was sitting and waiting until you put it down). How obedient are both dogs?

2) It is important to understand the body language of the dog/s when the behavior problem shows

Normally, during a behavior consultation I would like to see the dog/s myself to be able to understand the bodylanguage (and that's not only tail and ears up as in this case, there is much more to it). During such an observation I also look at the interaction between dog/s and owner/s and/or care-taker/s as. It does happen that owner/s interpreted their interaction with their dog/s or the bodylangauge of the dog/s (slightly) different from what I observe.

In the case of fighting dogs, it is also important to understand WHEN the fights occur. or when did the first fights occured. Was the owner around? How were/are they when they were/are together with no humans around?

As it is so important to understand what is really going on between all pack members, it is difficult and often dangerous to give advice with such little information and without being able to observe all members involved, as is the case between the poodle and the golden. As Bina already mentioned females fights can be very severe, they can even fight till death. If advice is misunderstood, (partly) incorrect it can lead to intensification of teh faights with fatal results.

In case with the poodle and the golden I do advice you to seek professional help or keep them seperate forever.

To answer your questions:

. Currently we have two females, a 3 year old poodle and a 1 1/2 old golden. We will breed the golden the next time she is in heat with a friend's golden. My questions are twofold. One, how to get the poodle and golden to get along better than they currently do. Two, when we breed the golden, we would like to keep one of the puppies. We would prefer a male, but I originally asked whether the sex of the puppy would matter (i.e. would a male be better than another female, given we already have two females).

. Nienke, will it matter that the golden puppy will be the offspring with our current golden? In other words, wouldn't a mother/daughter or mother/son get along better than if we just added another golden?

. The poodle and the golden fight. They may, at the end of the day, be like Elfe's dogs. We do not favor one over the other, since the golden stays outside,while the poodle is an indoor dog. They eat separately and sleep separately. Occasionally, when we make a mistake and have a screen door between them, the golden will want in, and the poodle will charge at the golden barking loudly. The poodle also barks loudly when I go outside to play with the golden (somehow the dog knows). Being indoors, the poodle gets the most attention, but the poodle, which was the first dog, seems to be the aggressive one.

. These dogs have never played nicely together. I think the golden just wants to play. If a friend brings their dog over to the house, the golden always plays with the other dog, but usually these dogs will be other goldens of equal size.

. We always reprimand the poodle for her aggressive behavior towards the golden. It doesn't matter. The poodle attacks all the time. I always have separated them in time. I have never been bitten, but that may be because I am the one separating them.

. We want them to get along, but have been reticent to put them together to let them work it out in case they don't and one injures the other.

. As it relates to food, the poodle is never satisfied. Since one is an inside dog and the other an outside dog, they eat separately.

. Both are obedient. Really no problems with these dogs, they only have problems with each other.

. We try to gauge their body language, but the poodle is so quick to react. I would imagine you would do much better on this than we do.

. Since we have never put them together, we don't know how bad it would be if we did.

I think your advise is sound, and we will most probably keep them separate forever. We love both equally and wouldn't want anything to hurt them.

Please do advise on whether a mother/son or mother/daughter relationship would work best as it relates to the puppy, when we get him or her.

Thanks,

[Nienke]

To answer your questions:

. Currently we have two females, a 3 year old poodle and a 1 1/2 old golden. We will breed the golden the next time she is in heat with a friend's golden. My questions are twofold. One, how to get the poodle and golden to get along better than they currently do. Two, when we breed the golden, we would like to keep one of the puppies. We would prefer a male, but I originally asked whether the sex of the puppy would matter (i.e. would a male be better than another female, given we already have two females).

. Nienke, will it matter that the golden puppy will be the offspring with our current golden? In other words, wouldn't a mother/daughter or mother/son get along better than if we just added another golden?

. The poodle and the golden fight. They may, at the end of the day, be like Elfe's dogs. We do not favor one over the other, since the golden stays outside,while the poodle is an indoor dog. They eat separately and sleep separately. Occasionally, when we make a mistake and have a screen door between them, the golden will want in, and the poodle will charge at the golden barking loudly. The poodle also barks loudly when I go outside to play with the golden (somehow the dog knows). Being indoors, the poodle gets the most attention, but the poodle, which was the first dog, seems to be the aggressive one.

. These dogs have never played nicely together. I think the golden just wants to play. If a friend brings their dog over to the house, the golden always plays with the other dog, but usually these dogs will be other goldens of equal size.

. We always reprimand the poodle for her aggressive behavior towards the golden. It doesn't matter. The poodle attacks all the time. I always have separated them in time. I have never been bitten, but that may be because I am the one separating them.

. We want them to get along, but have been reticent to put them together to let them work it out in case they don't and one injures the other.

. As it relates to food, the poodle is never satisfied. Since one is an inside dog and the other an outside dog, they eat separately.

. Both are obedient. Really no problems with these dogs, they only have problems with each other.

. We try to gauge their body language, but the poodle is so quick to react. I would imagine you would do much better on this than we do.

. Since we have never put them together, we don't know how bad it would be if we did.

I think your advise is sound, and we will most probably keep them separate forever. We love both equally and wouldn't want anything to hurt them.

Please do advise on whether a mother/son or mother/daughter relationship would work best as it relates to the puppy, when we get him or her.

Thanks,

In general rank problems between male and female are much less likely than between two females. The only problem that may occur is during heat priod of the mother dog, when the son wants to mount her.

Also be aware of possible maternal aggression. The golden mom may go for the kill when poodle head pops up through an open screen door.

Good luck! And please show us some pic's once the pups are born

[bina]

hi, btw, u OP hit the nail on the head: one is inside and one is outside and that already causes differences; and inforced separation w/screen (i.e. can be seen but not gotten to) can , curiously enough, cause aggression.

nienke reiterates what i already mentioned: DONT REPRIMAND as u are re inforcing BAD behavior. u have to divert, and re inforce,GOOD behavior. my dogs learned one very important command: lay off!! i.e. leave eachother alone, put your neck fur down, stop snarling, etc etc... once they 'layed off', we just carried on doing regular stuff-- no special attention to either one. (nero would lift an eyebrow and nala would go slinking off to her bed until he moved and 'allowed' her to come and eat, etc.)

its true that its hard to help virtually, but perhaps also the indoor/outdoor situation is the root of the problem?? the golden is probably friendly and young, the poodle probably 'feels' there's an usurper in the house that u wont let her deal with 'read': put the usurper in her place... screen doors are not good barriers: if the poodle was absolutely separated from the golden like barn dog versus house dog, it would be easier. here, the grass is visible and greener on the other side.... anyway, maybe u should just go to see neienke or have him visit to see... its hard from thousand miles away...

oh, and thanx for the vote of confidence in my dog whispering skills

[Old Man River]

hi, btw, u OP hit the nail on the head: one is inside and one is outside and that already causes differences; and inforced separation w/screen (i.e. can be seen but not gotten to) can , curiously enough, cause aggression.

nienke reiterates what i already mentioned: DONT REPRIMAND as u are re inforcing BAD behavior. u have to divert, and re inforce,GOOD behavior. my dogs learned one very important command: lay off!! i.e. leave eachother alone, put your neck fur down, stop snarling, etc etc... once they 'layed off', we just carried on doing regular stuff-- no special attention to either one. (nero would lift an eyebrow and nala would go slinking off to her bed until he moved and 'allowed' her to come and eat, etc.)

its true that its hard to help virtually, but perhaps also the indoor/outdoor situation is the root of the problem?? the golden is probably friendly and young, the poodle probably 'feels' there's an usurper in the house that u wont let her deal with 'read': put the usurper in her place... screen doors are not good barriers: if the poodle was absolutely separated from the golden like barn dog versus house dog, it would be easier. here, the grass is visible and greener on the other side.... anyway, maybe u should just go to see neienke or have him visit to see... its hard from thousand miles away...

oh, and thanx for the vote of confidence in my dog whispering skills

The screen door separates them only when we have made a mistake, which we don't do often. Normally, they can't see each other, but the poodle will know when we are outside playing with the golden (sensitive hearing and smell).

Neinke, thanks for the advice on adding the puppy. Our golden next goes into heat in January, so it will either be in April or October if we let her get a little older as has been suggested elsewhere on TV. Our golden, as well as our friend's golden, are really golden in color (not white), so we look forward to seeing our golden, golden puppies as well.

Neinke, if things get reall bad after adding the puppy, we will be giving you a call. I am assuming you are in Thailand (we are in Bangkok).

Thanks to all for the advice,

OMR

Really, both dogs are lovable, obedient dogs to us, but not to each other.

[steveromagnino]

I have had dogs; I think one of your problems is that when they 'play' you are putting the dominant dog in unknown territory belonging to the retreiver, so they need to sort out who 'owns' that area.

Better to let them be together far more outside, and they will get along ok as they will establish who is boss outside.

As it stands now, each time they meet they are negotiating as to who gets what, as in America vs. Vietnam; Germany vs. France; leave them together for a lot longer periods and be outside with them favouring the poodle should help.

[bina]

true, an other posssibility

watch out though when the goldie has pups; the poodle may be 'allowed' to help her (we had bitches who 'helped' eachother, even throwing up food for the pups), or she (goldie) may really agress..... plan whelping area etc well

bina

Edited October 6, 2006 by bina

[Old Man River]

Thanks all for the advice. Some say we should leave them alone together (i.e. we should leave) and some say if we do, we run the risk that one will kill the other. At this point, we will keep things status quo until the little ones arrive and then take it from there.

Thanks again.

[Nienke]

The poodle is older then the golden and arrived, I assume as a puppy in your family, more than a year before, putting her in a higher position.

OMR says:" We do not favor one over the other, since the golden stays outside, while the poodle is an indoor dog" But, if one dog is allowed to have access into the house (the den) of the pack leaders, it is already favored over the other one. However, this does not necessarily lead to misunderstandings concerning rank. My late boxer, Lucky, was outside last in rank of my three females. Being my total weakness, she was at the time the only dog allowed in the house (now all of them are, preferable first a dip in the water, then a roll in the mud followed by a final slide through my house ) and even on my bed (no they ar enot allowed on my bed, not even with their muddy paws). That made her feel inside the absolute top dog. And, woh, the one that dared to put one paw inside.

There never was a problem between my three females, although my boxer was in character the most dominant one. But she grew up as little puppy with the other two as being her aunti. She accepted her role last in rank (and I respected the decison made between the ladies by not spoiling her when outside) However, with another female that had been left behind when she was 1 years old, she never came to an agreement. The two bitches could not come to terms who was higher and who was lower in rank.

Letting them figure that out on a neutral area was not an option. They hated each other too much. Neutral area can work well for dogs to get acquitant before letting them into one of the territories, if they have agreed on the rank division. Thus success is not guaranteed, especially not when it concerns females.

Your golden has been raised seperately from the poodle. She never learned to submit to the poodle, which she should have done according to normal dog language (the poodle is older and was there first). It is very possible that at the arrival of the golden the poodle was a little upset with this intrusion of the new-comers and immdiately showed the new-comer her place. This was intervened by you. You punished the poodle for showing aggression, while most probably she was doing what every top dog would do with a pup: teaching her manners. By putting down the top dog, you favor the lower rank, putting it into a depended rank. Meaning that the lower rank will feel strong together with you and may start challenging the position of the top dog when you are around. When this develops fights also start occurring when you are not around.

I'm not sure at what age you've purchased the poodle. Usually small breed dogs are sold or given away at approximately 4 to 5 weeks of age. When this iny-tiny little puppy then ends up in a pack that consists only of human pack member, it will never learn it is actually a dog and it lacks most of the social skills in order to communicate normally with other dogs (and with us). It just never learned how to communicate. As it also has not been socialized with other dogs, other dogs can scare the hel_l out of such a dog, resulting in fear-aggression.

Through conditioning the dog may learn that by charging, barking and/or biting the other will back out, giving it a sense of control over the situation. This results in an increase of the aggressive behavior.

What is really going on in the situation with the poodle and the golden. What kind of behavior is the poodle showing during the incidents: fear-aggression or insecure dominance aggression or is it territorial agression or maybe some other form of aggression? What triggers this beahvior in the poddle and in what context? And how about the golden? What drives her to show agression towards the poodle and when? And what will she do when the puppies have arrived, when she already does not accept the poodle around.

As you can see there are several factors to consider before coming to a proper advice fully adapted to the situation of the poodle and the golden.

Behavioral consultations should consist of two parts: history taking through a questionnaire and conversation with the owner/s and/or care-taker/s and observing the dogs together with their human and dog apck members in my office or in their own environment. And if the need arises behavioral tests are added.

Then a last answer before I have to rush home:

I live very happily in Chiang Mai. Details you can find in my profile.

Huge P.S. Have a most adorable black English cocker in boarding and training. Her name is Kira, estimated between 3 and 5 years old, spayed, non-barking, not hyper (as some cockers can be) and she is for adoption.

I also have Jackie, the dalmation in boarding and training. He is 'slightly' different from Kira. Full of energy and quickly bored and uttermost faithfull, he needs a strong but gentle authorising hand from someone who loves to go exercising with him. He's between 1 and 2 years young and neutered.

Information you can get from carefordogs.org or call 08 1907 3260

[Old Man River]

The poodle is older then the golden and arrived, I assume as a puppy in your family, more than a year before, putting her in a higher position.

OMR says:" We do not favor one over the other, since the golden stays outside, while the poodle is an indoor dog" But, if one dog is allowed to have access into the house (the den) of the pack leaders, it is already favored over the other one. However, this does not necessarily lead to misunderstandings concerning rank. My late boxer, Lucky, was outside last in rank of my three females. Being my total weakness, she was at the time the only dog allowed in the house (now all of them are, preferable first a dip in the water, then a roll in the mud followed by a final slide through my house ) and even on my bed (no they ar enot allowed on my bed, not even with their muddy paws). That made her feel inside the absolute top dog. And, woh, the one that dared to put one paw inside.

There never was a problem between my three females, although my boxer was in character the most dominant one. But she grew up as little puppy with the other two as being her aunti. She accepted her role last in rank (and I respected the decison made between the ladies by not spoiling her when outside) However, with another female that had been left behind when she was 1 years old, she never came to an agreement. The two bitches could not come to terms who was higher and who was lower in rank.

Letting them figure that out on a neutral area was not an option. They hated each other too much. Neutral area can work well for dogs to get acquitant before letting them into one of the territories, if they have agreed on the rank division. Thus success is not guaranteed, especially not when it concerns females.

Your golden has been raised seperately from the poodle. She never learned to submit to the poodle, which she should have done according to normal dog language (the poodle is older and was there first). It is very possible that at the arrival of the golden the poodle was a little upset with this intrusion of the new-comers and immdiately showed the new-comer her place. This was intervened by you. You punished the poodle for showing aggression, while most probably she was doing what every top dog would do with a pup: teaching her manners. By putting down the top dog, you favor the lower rank, putting it into a depended rank. Meaning that the lower rank will feel strong together with you and may start challenging the position of the top dog when you are around. When this develops fights also start occurring when you are not around.

I'm not sure at what age you've purchased the poodle. Usually small breed dogs are sold or given away at approximately 4 to 5 weeks of age. When this iny-tiny little puppy then ends up in a pack that consists only of human pack member, it will never learn it is actually a dog and it lacks most of the social skills in order to communicate normally with other dogs (and with us). It just never learned how to communicate. As it also has not been socialized with other dogs, other dogs can scare the hel_l out of such a dog, resulting in fear-aggression.

Through conditioning the dog may learn that by charging, barking and/or biting the other will back out, giving it a sense of control over the situation. This results in an increase of the aggressive behavior.

What is really going on in the situation with the poodle and the golden. What kind of behavior is the poodle showing during the incidents: fear-aggression or insecure dominance aggression or is it territorial agression or maybe some other form of aggression? What triggers this beahvior in the poddle and in what context? And how about the golden? What drives her to show agression towards the poodle and when? And what will she do when the puppies have arrived, when she already does not accept the poodle around.

As you can see there are several factors to consider before coming to a proper advice fully adapted to the situation of the poodle and the golden.

Behavioral consultations should consist of two parts: history taking through a questionnaire and conversation with the owner/s and/or care-taker/s and observing the dogs together with their human and dog apck members in my office or in their own environment. And if the need arises behavioral tests are added.

Then a last answer before I have to rush home:

I live very happily in Chiang Mai. Details you can find in my profile.

Huge P.S. Have a most adorable black English cocker in boarding and training. Her name is Kira, estimated between 3 and 5 years old, spayed, non-barking, not hyper (as some cockers can be) and she is for adoption.

I also have Jackie, the dalmation in boarding and training. He is 'slightly' different from Kira. Full of energy and quickly bored and uttermost faithfull, he needs a strong but gentle authorising hand from someone who loves to go exercising with him. He's between 1 and 2 years young and neutered.

Information you can get from carefordogs.org or call 08 1907 3260

Neinke, thanks. The part I put in bold directly reflects us (we got the poodle when she was 7 weeks old). What we had hoped for is that both dogs would consider themselves equals, similar to people, but apparently, in the dog world, equality doesn't exist.

The info from you, Bina and the others has helped me better understand my pooches. We will make sure we don't make the same mistakes with the golden puppy.

Thanks again,