Turkey 'shoots down' warplane near Syrian-Turkish border

[Scott]

The Turks also take extra-territorial liberties in protecting ethnic Turk populations in neighboring countries. In the past, they protected the Turkomen in Iraq and they flew bombing raids in Iraq during the no-fly zone time.

This situation has the potential to get very, very tense. A lot more enemies in this conflict than allies.

[manarak]

The Turks also take extra-territorial liberties in protecting ethnic Turk populations in neighboring countries. In the past, they protected the Turkomen in Iraq and they flew bombing raids in Iraq during the no-fly zone time.

This situation has the potential to get very, very tense. A lot more enemies in this conflict than allies.

Turkey has been playing a dangerous game lately.

They support islamist terrorists in China as well as in Syria and Iraq, plus they support ISIS...

Will Turkey be backed by the US ?

Edited November 24, 2015 by manarak

[MobileContent]

I don't know about the current situation, but some years back there was some areas along the border that were claimed by both Turkey and Syria.

That would be the Hatay Province

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatay_Province

given up by Syria in 2004

but apparently the argument is re-heated since 2011

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatay_Province#Turkish.E2.80.93Syrian_dispute

My friend in my village, a Turkish Syrian is from Hata province and he just told me two days ago that foreigners are still entering HATA by the hundreds every day and they are Europeans, mainly French, Germans, English and Belgians and until three months ago they were protected by the Turkish military. His Thai wife even pledged to me to talk to him of not returning back to Hata next month and to stay in Thailand but he wants to go back to Hata next month with the wife and his 2 children's. According to him Hata Muslims are like Syrians and they are very moderate (no hijab, brweing Raki at home, smoking grass and they even don't pray 5 times a day. The number business in Hata according to him is the Turks sell weapons to ISIS and they are paid with sugar. Sugar is 50% more expensive in Turkey because it is subsidized by the Syrian government. It is really strange - the Syrian Agricultural ministry in Aleppo is paid by Assad but they are under ISIS control. The Turks sell M16 US made weapons to ISIS and they get paid in Syrian sugar.

[manarak]

here is the village of Yamadi (crash site) and its situation relative to the Turkish-Syrian border

[manarak]

I don't know about the current situation, but some years back there was some areas along the border that were claimed by both Turkey and Syria.

That would be the Hatay Province

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatay_Province

given up by Syria in 2004

but apparently the argument is re-heated since 2011

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatay_Province#Turkish.E2.80.93Syrian_dispute

My friend in my village, a Turkish Syrian is from Hata province and he just told me two days ago that foreigners are still entering HATA by the hundreds every day and they are Europeans, mainly French, Germans, English and Belgians and until three months ago they were protected by the Turkish military. His Thai wife even pledged to me to talk to him of not returning back to Hata next month and to stay in Thailand but he wants to go back to Hata next month with the wife and his 2 children's. According to him Hata Muslims are like Syrians and they are very moderate (no hijab, brweing Raki at home, smoking grass and they even don't pray 5 times a day. The number business in Hata according to him is the Turks sell weapons to ISIS and they are paid with sugar. Sugar is 50% more expensive in Turkey because it is subsidized by the Syrian government. It is really strange - the Syrian Agricultural ministry in Aleppo is paid by Assad but they are under ISIS control. The Turks sell M16 US made weapons to ISIS and they get paid in Syrian sugar.

yes... Syrian state infrastructure is still present, but ISIS controls it with either bribes or threats or both.

Erdogan is playing a dirty game using ISIS against Syria and against the Kurds while his son makes money buying ISIS oil and probably supplying weapons as well.

Edited November 24, 2015 by manarak

[Steely Dan]

Russia is a serial offender in making illegal incursions to test defenses or provoke a reaction. It will be interesting to see how they try to spin this as being the victim. As an aside this could obviously degenerate into something very serious.

Once again you try and spin anything yourself to make it look like everyone else is bad and only the US and it's close Middle Eastern Ally are good.

Russia does nothing that the Brits and US don't do. We used to fly/sail up and down Russian airspace and waters to test their defences just as much as they would fly down our borders.

However you want to spin it Russia is the ONLY one attacking and successfully destroying ISIS, why is that? No wonder the West are pissed. Every time they re-supply their own self created Frankenstein - ISIS - Russia is wiping them out. Right now with the threat from ISIS to the rest of the civilised world I wish that the USA, UK, France and Germany were all led by Putins. We would have world peace in a matter of months and ISIS would be consigned to the history books. As it is Russia, by destroying ISIS is ruining the plans of the neocons and zionists. Expect escalation. We had two world wars that resulted in the deaths of 40 million plus all over the murder of 1 man - Arch Duke Ferdinand, lets hope world war 3 which will have a far higher death toll is not caused by the public execution of some Russian pilot called Ivan. Funny how the rescue is going on inside Syria. Just how far in Turkish Airspace do you think they were Steely?

You have let your keyboard run amok with several conclusions not supported by fact. I never argued the Turks are not themselves violators of international borders. I desire ISIS to be wiped off the face of the earth as much as anyone. Russia had its own motives in propping up the Assad regime prior to their airliner being shot down so their own motives are questionable. I believe the French are also active in combatting Isis so Russia is not alone here.

Finally you have to throw in the old trope that the Zionists created or support ISIS. Netanyahu has gone so far as to state that ISIS and Hizbollah are his enemy and you don't support one enemy to fight another but you try to weaken both.

[Chicog]

One pilot is dead according to Twatter.

[manarak]

One pilot is dead according to Twatter.

and the other held by Turkmen rebels?

what's the cause of death?

Edited November 24, 2015 by manarak

[manarak]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/11/24/uk-mideast-crisis-syria-video-idUKKBN0TD12D20151124?mod=related&channelName=worldNews

A video sent to Reuters by a Syrian rebel group on Tuesday appeared to show a Russian pilot immobile and badly wounded on the ground, and an official from the group said he was dead.

"A Russian pilot," a voice is heard saying as a group of men gather around him. "God is great," a voice is heard saying.

The video was sent to Reuters by a rebel group operating in the northwestern area of Syria, where groups including Free Syrian Army are operating but Islamic State has no known presence.

here is the video of the dead pilot surrounded by a crowd shouting Allah akhbar:

https://www.rt.com/news/323237-video-dead-russian-pilot/

also interesting comments from all sides at the guardian's website:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/24/russian-jet-downed-by-turkish-planes-near-syrian-border-live-updates

Craig Murray, a former British diplomat turned anti-war campaigner, says Turkey’s actions are unjustified and that the incident highlights the danger of the UK getting involved in the bombing campaign over Syria. Writing on his blog, Murray says:

I calculate that each “incursion” over Turkish territory would have lasted about 10 seconds, assuming the plane was flying slowly at 600mph. That Turkey shot down the plane for this is madness, and absolutely indefensible. It is fairly obvious from the track that the plane was operating against Turkish sponsored Turkmen rebels inside Syria, and that is why the Turks shot it down.

But the inescapable conclusion is that the true madness would be for the UK to get involved in Syria and make a complex and volatile situation still worse, and risk being dragged into wider conflict.

Edited November 24, 2015 by manarak

[Scott]

The Turks also take extra-territorial liberties in protecting ethnic Turk populations in neighboring countries. In the past, they protected the Turkomen in Iraq and they flew bombing raids in Iraq during the no-fly zone time.

This situation has the potential to get very, very tense. A lot more enemies in this conflict than allies.

Turkey has been playing a dangerous game lately.

They support islamist terrorists in China as well as in Syria and Iraq, plus they support ISIS...

Will Turkey be backed by the US ?

I have absolutely no idea. I would venture to guess that they will likely get the backing of NATO and the US by default.

The situation with Turkey is delicate because of a number of factors. First, it is geographically an important cross-roads to the ME. It is difficult to do much in the region without Turkey. They use this geography as a tool to get their way, and this includes countries turning a blind eye to transgressions. For example, if you think Europe has a refugee problem now, just imagine what it could be like if Turkey decided to open the flood gates.

Second, Turkey is a very nationalistic country and ethnic Turks receive a great deal of coverage, whether they live in Iraq or Syria. The Uighurs are another group with Turkish connections and we saw how that situation has been unfolding in Thailand.

Third, even though they may not be on the best terms with some of their neighbors, they have mutual enemies such as the Kurds. Alliance shift rather quickly with the Turks.

A fourth factor is they are on record as being against Assad and by extension, that is going to cause further tension between Turkey and Iran. Russia is cozy with both.

There are other factors, but it should be remembered that Turkey is in a volatile region of the world and maintaining their territorial integrity is paramount. They are also predominantly secular Muslims.

When I lived and worked in Turkey, I found a lot of similarities between it and Thailand.

The single biggest problem in this whole situation in the ME is that these military actions tend to spill over into neighboring countries. That could be what we are seeing.

[Scott]

Just to add one point, I think the US is willing to do a great deal to insure it has access to the Turkish bases, including Incerlik.

[manarak]

Turkey has released radar data

I think Turkey is being petty.

The small appendice of Turkey on the map is about 2.3 Km large...

At no point there was a trajectory penetrating deeper into Turkey and these incursions, assuming the jet was traveling at 600 Kmh, had a duration of 15 seconds each.

I think Turkey has behaved like an ass and is trying to taunt Russia.

But I fail to see the benefit of doing so.

Edited November 24, 2015 by manarak

[Mosha]

A NATO meeting has been called.

[Mosha]

Turkey has released radar data

CUki7XZUYAA6BNT.png

I think Turkey is being petty.

The small appendice of Turkey on the map is about 2.3 Km large...

I think this is more about the Turkmen than the air space.

[MobileContent]

For a diplomatic start:

1) Syria should tell Turkey no longer more to fly into Syrian Airspace. If they do Russian Airforce will get the green light to shot down any Turkish plane flying over Syria. Iraq might extend as well the no fly zone for any Turkish jets into Iraqi airspace.

2) All Russian tourists to be evacuated from Turkey and a total ban of Russian tourists from entering Turkey for the next 2 years. Stop issuing visas to any Turks to Russia.

3) Recall the Russian Ambassador from Turkey.

4) Ban on all imports from Turkey to Russia.

5) Develop Russian cooperation with Armenia.

6) Pull out all Russian investment from Turkey.

In today's world Turkey is a nobody and they keep sending 10,000 migrants a day into Europe. Turkey is not a partner of Europe but the biggest enemy Europe can have.

If I were Russia, I would even go further and have airstrikes inside Turkey and forget NATO, they would not go into war with Russia for another Muslim country where the president itself is a Islamic fanatic. If Ataturk would be still alive he would have hanged that Sultan Erdogan bastaxd himself.

[manarak]

Turkey has released radar data

CUki7XZUYAA6BNT.png

I think Turkey is being petty.

The small appendice of Turkey on the map is about 2.3 Km large...

I think this is more about the Turkmen than the air space.

maybe it's all about the commander of the AA post who is maybe a Turkmen and line of command can't disavow

[Somtamnication]

About time. Hope Russia listens to issues regarding cross border incursions.

[manarak]

About time. Hope Russia listens to issues regarding cross border incursions.

Yes, I hope they defend Syrian airspace against Turkish planes.

[manarak]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_2012_interception_of_Turkish_aircraft

The Syrian military alleged that the fighter aircraft had violated Syrian airspace. However, Turkish president Abdullah Gül and other spokesmen have not confirmed this, though Gül said that "it is routine for jet fighters to sometimes fly in and out over [national] borders".^[10]

[Mosha]

About time. Hope Russia listens to issues regarding cross border incursions.

If that radar is right. They were not in the air space for the 5 mins they said that had given warnings about. Not sure of cruise speed but a low altitude max is 1400 kph.

[manarak]

About time. Hope Russia listens to issues regarding cross border incursions.

If that radar is right. They were not in the air space for the 5 mins they said that had given warnings about. Not sure of cruise speed but a low altitude max is 1400 kph.

they probably flew over that stretch of land more than two or three times

same thing happened with a Syrian aircraft last year:

March 2014 Turkish shootdown of a Syrian aircraft

On 23 March 2014, Turkish fighter jets shot down a Syrian warplane. The Syrian Arab Republic claims that its aircraft was in Syrian airspace on a mission to attack rebel held areas in the city of Latakia when it was shot down by Turkey in an act of "blatant aggression." The Syrian pilot successfully ejected from the aircraft as the aircraft was being shot down.^[41] Turkish Prime Minister Erdoğan stated that Turkish F-16s shot down the aircraft for violating Turkish airspace and said that the Turkish "response will be heavy if you violate our airspace."^[42]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian%E2%80%93Turkish_border_clashes_%282012%E2%80%9314%29#March_2014_Turkish_shootdown_of_a_Syrian_aircraft

[MobileContent]

About time. Hope Russia listens to issues regarding cross border incursions.

Turkey has been violating airspace in both Iraq and Syria.

Hopefully those Turkish ISIS supporters will be popped down from the air in no time and if I were Russia I would do like the Germans do supporting all those Kurds in Northern Iraq and Syria.

My guess is Turkey will loose a couple of F16 in the next few weeks over Syria and Iraq, shot down unofficially by Iraqi and Syrian anti aircraft missiles but everyone knows that the Russian bear will be behind.

Possible Putin will force Assad to put a no fly zone for Turkish fighter jets over Syria. Lets remember their is no mandate over Syria except Russia has a mandate by the Syrian regime.

If the plane was hit over Syria I wouldn't be surprised if Russian airforce are going to bomb some positions on the Turkey/Syrian border. The village would be the first option and I would be surprised if that village still exist tomorrow evening.

Turkey is a nobody really, except exporting terrorists into Syria.

[manarak]

If the plane was hit over Syria

actually, if we give it a thought, what is the probability that the Russian airplane was hit over Turkish territory during the 15 seconds (tops) it needs to cross that 2.3 Km appendage shown on the radar?

Edited November 24, 2015 by manarak

[Mosha]

If the plane was hit over Syria

actually, if we give it a thought, what is the probability that the Russian airplane was hit over Turkish territory during the 15 seconds (tops) it needs to cross that 2.3 Km appendage shown on the radar?

Then it follows they were warning the Russians while in Syrian Air Space.

[Andaman Al]

Russia is a serial offender in making illegal incursions to test defenses or provoke a reaction. It will be interesting to see how they try to spin this as being the victim. As an aside this could obviously degenerate into something very serious.

Once again you try and spin anything yourself to make it look like everyone else is bad and only the US and it's close Middle Eastern Ally are good.

Russia does nothing that the Brits and US don't do. We used to fly/sail up and down Russian airspace and waters to test their defences just as much as they would fly down our borders.

However you want to spin it Russia is the ONLY one attacking and successfully destroying ISIS, why is that? No wonder the West are pissed. Every time they re-supply their own self created Frankenstein - ISIS - Russia is wiping them out. Right now with the threat from ISIS to the rest of the civilised world I wish that the USA, UK, France and Germany were all led by Putins. We would have world peace in a matter of months and ISIS would be consigned to the history books. As it is Russia, by destroying ISIS is ruining the plans of the neocons and zionists. Expect escalation. We had two world wars that resulted in the deaths of 40 million plus all over the murder of 1 man - Arch Duke Ferdinand, lets hope world war 3 which will have a far higher death toll is not caused by the public execution of some Russian pilot called Ivan. Funny how the rescue is going on inside Syria. Just how far in Turkish Airspace do you think they were Steely?

You have let your keyboard run amok with several conclusions not supported by fact. I never argued the Turks are not themselves violators of international borders. I desire ISIS to be wiped off the face of the earth as much as anyone. Russia had its own motives in propping up the Assad regime prior to their airliner being shot down so their own motives are questionable. I believe the French are also active in combatting Isis so Russia is not alone here.

Finally you have to throw in the old trope that the Zionists created or support ISIS. Netanyahu has gone so far as to state that ISIS and Hizbollah are his enemy and you don't support one enemy to fight another but you try to weaken both.

And I think you have let your mind run amok with your comprehension (or lack of) of what I wrote in my post. I never mentioned anywhere about Turks and border incursions that they do.

I doubt it is prudent to question Russian motives about getting involved protecting Syria as that may draw attention to the equally (if not more) questionable US and UK motives of Iraq, Lebanon, Egypt and Syria etc etc etc. Shhhhhh!

As for Netanyahu, I never mentioned him, I just said 'neocon' and 'zionists' but I am glad you were able to make a sensible link on that As to your last point, as it happens George W Bush said that Al Qaida were enemies of the USA but his best friends from the Oil business continued to be the Bin Laden family. I wonder how you do have Mr Bin Laden senior around to the ranch for a BBQ and one minute discuss the next big oil shipment and the next say 'i am going to hunt your eldest son down in a cave in Afghanistan and blow him to bits'. One side of the story seems out of kilter with the other, and George W never caught Osama and Mr Bin Laden senior continued (continues) to do business with the Bush family - Go figure . Politicians and Presidents will sell their soul to have the voting population believe whatever they want them to believe.

The video of the Russian pilot, dead with the Allah Ahkbar brigade chanting over the body will be enough to fuel Putin into a rage. Lets hope he has no Vodka tonight and sits near that box with the big red 'launch' button on it. That will be the swift way to stop Turkish tourism ! It might be an idea to draw your cash out of the bank sometime soon !

[MobileContent]

If the plane was hit over Syria

actually, if we give it a thought, what is the probability that the Russian airplane was hit over Turkish territory during the 15 seconds (tops) it needs to cross that 2.3 Km appendage shown on the radar?

Does it really matter? The issue is that the Russians until recently have being the only one fighting ISIS. The Turks keep saying they fight ISIS. If you look at the video from the dead pilot those guys talked Arabic and not Turkish.

You can't fight ISIS if NATO countries such as Turkey supports them and I think if Putin wants to hold his credibility he must give some payback to Turkey and the West will condemn it but otherwise nothing will happen but the Russians will pay back by supporting the Kurds in both Northern Iraq and Syria.

[2fishin2]

Russia is a serial offender in making illegal incursions to test defenses or provoke a reaction. It will be interesting to see how they try to spin this as being the victim. As an aside this could obviously degenerate into something very serious.

Once again you try and spin anything yourself to make it look like everyone else is bad and only the US and it's close Middle Eastern Ally are good.

Russia does nothing that the Brits and US don't do. We used to fly/sail up and down Russian airspace and waters to test their defences just as much as they would fly down our borders.

However you want to spin it Russia is the ONLY one attacking and successfully destroying ISIS, why is that? No wonder the West are pissed. Every time they re-supply their own self created Frankenstein - ISIS - Russia is wiping them out. Right now with the threat from ISIS to the rest of the civilised world I wish that the USA, UK, France and Germany were all led by Putins. We would have world peace in a matter of months and ISIS would be consigned to the history books. As it is Russia, by destroying ISIS is ruining the plans of the neocons and zionists. Expect escalation. We had two world wars that resulted in the deaths of 40 million plus all over the murder of 1 man - Arch Duke Ferdinand, lets hope world war 3 which will have a far higher death toll is not caused by the public execution of some Russian pilot called Ivan. Funny how the rescue is going on inside Syria. Just how far in Turkish Airspace do you think they were Steely?

For mine and other objective people's reading pleasure', please point out anywhere in your "quoted" post are the words "US, or close Middle East Ally". I'm seriously puzzled as how you could make a 18 line diatribe out of that 3 line quote you so generously gave us.

Your post is comical at best.

[MobileContent]

Russia is a serial offender in making illegal incursions to test defenses or provoke a reaction. It will be interesting to see how they try to spin this as being the victim. As an aside this could obviously degenerate into something very serious.

Once again you try and spin anything yourself to make it look like everyone else is bad and only the US and it's close Middle Eastern Ally are good.

Russia does nothing that the Brits and US don't do. We used to fly/sail up and down Russian airspace and waters to test their defences just as much as they would fly down our borders.

However you want to spin it Russia is the ONLY one attacking and successfully destroying ISIS, why is that? No wonder the West are pissed. Every time they re-supply their own self created Frankenstein - ISIS - Russia is wiping them out. Right now with the threat from ISIS to the rest of the civilised world I wish that the USA, UK, France and Germany were all led by Putins. We would have world peace in a matter of months and ISIS would be consigned to the history books. As it is Russia, by destroying ISIS is ruining the plans of the neocons and zionists. Expect escalation. We had two world wars that resulted in the deaths of 40 million plus all over the murder of 1 man - Arch Duke Ferdinand, lets hope world war 3 which will have a far higher death toll is not caused by the public execution of some Russian pilot called Ivan. Funny how the rescue is going on inside Syria. Just how far in Turkish Airspace do you think they were Steely?

You have let your keyboard run amok with several conclusions not supported by fact. I never argued the Turks are not themselves violators of international borders. I desire ISIS to be wiped off the face of the earth as much as anyone. Russia had its own motives in propping up the Assad regime prior to their airliner being shot down so their own motives are questionable. I believe the French are also active in combatting Isis so Russia is not alone here.

Finally you have to throw in the old trope that the Zionists created or support ISIS. Netanyahu has gone so far as to state that ISIS and Hizbollah are his enemy and you don't support one enemy to fight another but you try to weaken both.

And I think you have let your mind run amok with your comprehension (or lack of) of what I wrote in my post. I never mentioned anywhere about Turks and border incursions that they do.

I doubt it is prudent to question Russian motives about getting involved protecting Syria as that may draw attention to the equally (if not more) questionable US and UK motives of Iraq, Lebanon, Egypt and Syria etc etc etc. Shhhhhh!

As for Netanyahu, I never mentioned him, I just said 'neocon' and 'zionists' but I am glad you were able to make a sensible link on that As to your last point, as it happens George W Bush said that Al Qaida were enemies of the USA but his best friends from the Oil business continued to be the Bin Laden family. I wonder how you do have Mr Bin Laden senior around to the ranch for a BBQ and one minute discuss the next big oil shipment and the next say 'i am going to hunt your eldest son down in a cave in Afghanistan and blow him to bits'. One side of the story seems out of kilter with the other, and George W never caught Osama and Mr Bin Laden senior continued (continues) to do business with the Bush family - Go figure . Politicians and Presidents will sell their soul to have the voting population believe whatever they want them to believe.

The video of the Russian pilot, dead with the Allah Ahkbar brigade chanting over the body will be enough to fuel Putin into a rage. Lets hope he has no Vodka tonight and sits near that box with the big red 'launch' button on it. That will be the swift way to stop Turkish tourism ! It might be an idea to draw your cash out of the bank sometime soon !

Good point. 30% of all tourism revenues in Turkey comes from the Russians.

Antalya without Russians is a ghost town.

Let him have a few Vodkas tonight and go for that red button. I am sure many of the Turkish position in Northern Syria have not been hit yet.

[Chicog]

Ooooh Vlad says it is a "stab in the back".

Well he would know, wouldn't he?

[Andaman Al]

Russia is a serial offender in making illegal incursions to test defenses or provoke a reaction. It will be interesting to see how they try to spin this as being the victim. As an aside this could obviously degenerate into something very serious.

Once again you try and spin anything yourself to make it look like everyone else is bad and only the US and it's close Middle Eastern Ally are good.

Russia does nothing that the Brits and US don't do. We used to fly/sail up and down Russian airspace and waters to test their defences just as much as they would fly down our borders.

However you want to spin it Russia is the ONLY one attacking and successfully destroying ISIS, why is that? No wonder the West are pissed. Every time they re-supply their own self created Frankenstein - ISIS - Russia is wiping them out. Right now with the threat from ISIS to the rest of the civilised world I wish that the USA, UK, France and Germany were all led by Putins. We would have world peace in a matter of months and ISIS would be consigned to the history books. As it is Russia, by destroying ISIS is ruining the plans of the neocons and zionists. Expect escalation. We had two world wars that resulted in the deaths of 40 million plus all over the murder of 1 man - Arch Duke Ferdinand, lets hope world war 3 which will have a far higher death toll is not caused by the public execution of some Russian pilot called Ivan. Funny how the rescue is going on inside Syria. Just how far in Turkish Airspace do you think they were Steely?

For mine and other objective people's reading pleasure', please point out anywhere in your "quoted" post are the words "US, or close Middle East Ally". I'm seriously puzzled as how you could make a 18 line diatribe out of that 3 line quote you so generously gave us.

Your post is comical at best.

Well what you point out starts with the words 'Once again'. All to do with posting history chap. Do keep up! and if you think something is diatribe then stop reading. By the way the quote is just 1.5 lines, not 3, so I guess we have issues on the forum with numeracy as well as comprehension.