Crawfish Or Crayfish... Farm

[Dakhar]

""The entire crawfish raising thing here seems sort of closed mouthed and hush hush......makes me think it is illegal and that's why you don't see them for sale in the markets""

Passsing gas/flactuation and picking ones nose is Hush Hush affair too, but that does not make it illegal. I hope you are not a lawyer.

[Maizefarmer]

Which one - I think it comes down to the redclaw (both Oz), yabbie or redswamp (USA).

Yabbies are already here - I am going to be speaking to someone in Saraburi of the weekend - an Australian who has them in tanks in his backyard.

As for the Redswamp - they appear to also already be here - I think someone said he has seen them at a market somewhere.

In any case - the growth rates and yields are pretty much all the same - and sold to the Thai market, well I dont think it would make much differance to them which one they purchased - it would land up in a salad or on the grill and then have chilly sauce applied.

The problem is this - compare their growth rates and yileds to the giant river prawn (which are farmed all over Thailand) and you quickly see that its pretty hard to beat them as a commerical choose. They are indigenous to this enviroment and so are a lot easier to keep and breed. They grow quicker and they yield more fleash.

Thats the problem - the others are not going to compete commercialy - legal or not.

Its going to appeal to a niche market which means a lower turn over - unless you can price them competitively against the prawn - which I think is unlikely when you consider just how avalible the giant river prawn is in Thailand.

If I was going to choose any of the above for a commercial venture - it would be the giant river prawn.

Tim

[Dakhar]

Now that was cogent.

I beleive if I remember correctly, the Yabbie is one of the best "farming" type of crawfish. They do yeild a good amount of meat compared to other crawfish, sport a good size, not very aggressive, and are not famous for digging.

Crawfish genearally like to dig, and they have been known to dig throgh narrow levies, like the type that devide rice fields. In other words they border hop.

We didn't care back home if they bored through a levy, because there wasn't any lawyers around, due to the fact their were plenty of live oak trees around, and an abundance of rope. Not to mention, their were no ambulances to speak of for them to chace. But that is another topic.

Red Claws are actually a pretty looking animal, so I may just pick a few of those up at one of them Hush Hush markets..... I will have to ask the police where one of those markets are first. I will get some just for personal/medicinal purposes ofcourse.

[chownah]

So, is growing these things legal here?...or not? They are not native and they are not commonly seen for sale....seems like they might not be legal.....home made whiskey is more common than crayfish in Thailand and it is definitely illegal.

So, what about the potential for environmental damage if they escape from the tanks they are presently rumored to be grown in?

MaizeFarmer,

You're a professional farmer of longstanding in Thailand with a wife who is a university connected agricultural scientist.....can't you get a definitive answer to the question of the legality of growing alien species crayfish in Thailand......and an assessment of the possible environmental damage they might cause if they escaped?

Chownah

[Maizefarmer]

CHOWNAH - I asked her last night and she going to find out for us to day - but says she doesnt think its a big deal at all.

The only real risk they present is diesease potential, - look at their diet, they present no threat to the foodchain balance - imported stock would certianly have to be certified disease free, but other than that, she does not think there would be a problem getting permission to farm them commercially.

On a lighter note, but still a very real note, there is one other consideration: just like the giant freshwater prawn has been all but fished out of the wild (thats why they are farmed - because wild stocks are too low) - wouldn't take long for news to get round, and like the giant freshwater prawn, wild Yabbies or Red Claw stocks wouldn't last long in any Thai stream - they'd be fished out for sale and consumption.

Tim

Edited October 11, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[chownah]

MaizeFarmer,

Are you saying that there are already non-native species of crayfish in Thai streams? I'm surprised by this since the only information I have been able to find on the internet is that crayfish are considered exotic species and so far have only been permitted for certain varieties for aquarium use and that aquaculture use had not been permitted. But the link where I found had been updated in about 2004 and the data they showed for crayfish had a most recent date of the late 1980's if I remember correctly......it just seems odd to me that if a species was already running wild in streams and that this was not an environmental concern that crayfish would be described as exotic and permitting would not have been allowed for aquaculture.

Chownah

[Dakhar]

Is the position for Minister of Agriculture held, by a falang?

Chownah,

I went out, saw the non-indigenous Peakok (spelling) fed the non-indeginous dog, hugged my non-indeginous boy.... and now I am off to work, importing non-indiginous products to Thailand. (medical goods)

[Nawtilus]

Just don't jump to any unfounded assumptions.

Dakhar, maybe you should take some of that medication ;-)

MF, you asked the returns before on the crays, no answer. I know someone who is setting up a farm now, but am not able to speak to him about it for awhile yet.

As for the fresh water prawn you talk about, do you know the costs versus income for this type of prawn ?

[Dakhar]

I don't work with medication, I work with diagnostic equipment.

But as we can see, there are crawfish farms going up, and Thailand is still here, and the sky hasn't fallen.

[Maizefarmer]

CHOWNAH - no, I am not saying there are non-native species in Thai streams - I was asking just how long would they survive if they got into Thai streams, and if the wild populations of Giant Prawns are anything to go by, then my guess is that a anything similar (that was tasty) woud never be able to reach any significant level - they would suffer the same fate and be fished out for food - just as the prawns have been.

In other words it is unlikley that an exotic speicies could ever establish its self if it was a viable food scource for human consumption as well.

NAWTILUS - no, I know nothing about the economics of this buiisness - nothing at all.

Anyway, all the above fades into insignificance as the other half now confirms what she suspected - we have all missed the boat:

- no restrictions on brining Australian Yabbies into Thailand - they are officialy diesease free

(apparently even in the wild in Australia).

- Yabbies have been farmed here in Thailand legally and commecially in the

Chachongsao area by a a company called Lumtarn Tong International Company Limited who run a

farm called Aquaculture Farm International.

- lastly (Nawtilus) - yes, they are already in the Thai stream/rivier system - thats official and its

recognised and no-one is worried about it as they present no risk to anything else.

Tim

Edited October 12, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[lannarebirth]

CHOWNAH - no, I am not saying there are non-native species in Thai streams - I was asking just how long would they survive if they got into Thai streams, and if the wild populations of Giant Prawns are anything to go by, then my guess is that a anything similar (that was tasty) woud never be able to reach any significant level - they would suffer the same fate and be fished out for food - just as the prawns have been.

In other words it is unlikley that an exotic speicies could ever establish its self if it was a viable food scource for human consumption as well.

NAWTILUS - no, I know nothing about the economics of this buiisness - nothing at all.

Anyway, all the above fades into insignificance as the other half now confirms what she suspected - we have all missed the boat:

- no restrictions on brining Australian Yabbies into Thailand - they are officialy diesease free

(apparently even in the wild in Australia).

- Yabbies have been farmed here in Thailand legally and commecially in the

Chachongsao area by a a company called Lumtarn Tong International Company Limited who run a

farm called Aquaculture Farm International.

- lastly (Nawtilus) - yes, they are already in the Thai stream/rivier system - thats official and its

recognised and no-one is worried about it as they present no risk to anything else.

Tim

I understand the introduction of non-native species can be worriesome and perhaps an environmental risk, but if I know my Thais, if it can be put in the gaeng pot (and as far as I can tell, just about anything qualifies), it will not be allowed to establish itself in the wild to any great degree. I'm judging by the absolute dearth of life in the forests and streams that adjoin my land.

[Maizefarmer]

CHOWNAH - no, I am not saying there are non-native species in Thai streams - I was asking just how long would they survive if they got into Thai streams, and if the wild populations of Giant Prawns are anything to go by, then my guess is that a anything similar (that was tasty) woud never be able to reach any significant level - they would suffer the same fate and be fished out for food - just as the prawns have been.

In other words it is unlikley that an exotic speicies could ever establish its self if it was a viable food scource for human consumption as well.

NAWTILUS - no, I know nothing about the economics of this buiisness - nothing at all.

Anyway, all the above fades into insignificance as the other half now confirms what she suspected - we have all missed the boat:

- no restrictions on brining Australian Yabbies into Thailand - they are officialy diesease free

(apparently even in the wild in Australia).

- Yabbies have been farmed here in Thailand legally and commecially in the

Chachongsao area by a a company called Lumtarn Tong International Company Limited who run a

farm called Aquaculture Farm International.

- lastly (Nawtilus) - yes, they are already in the Thai stream/rivier system - thats official and its

recognised and no-one is worried about it as they present no risk to anything else.

Tim

I understand the introduction of non-native species can be worriesome and perhaps an environmental risk, but if I know my Thais, if it can be put in the gaeng pot (and as far as I can tell, just about anything qualifies), it will not be allowed to establish itself in the wild to any great degree. I'm judging by the absolute dearth of life in the forests and streams that adjoin my land.

Quite so - would have as much chance as a snowman in hel_l!

[Dakhar]

CHOWNAH - no, I am not saying there are non-native species in Thai streams - I was asking just how long would they survive if they got into Thai streams, and if the wild populations of Giant Prawns are anything to go by, then my guess is that a anything similar (that was tasty) woud never be able to reach any significant level - they would suffer the same fate and be fished out for food - just as the prawns have been.

In other words it is unlikley that an exotic speicies could ever establish its self if it was a viable food scource for human consumption as well.

NAWTILUS - no, I know nothing about the economics of this buiisness - nothing at all.

Anyway, all the above fades into insignificance as the other half now confirms what she suspected - we have all missed the boat:

- no restrictions on brining Australian Yabbies into Thailand - they are officialy diesease free

(apparently even in the wild in Australia).

- Yabbies have been farmed here in Thailand legally and commecially in the

Chachongsao area by a a company called Lumtarn Tong International Company Limited who run a

farm called Aquaculture Farm International.

- lastly (Nawtilus) - yes, they are already in the Thai stream/rivier system - thats official and its

recognised and no-one is worried about it as they present no risk to anything else.

Tim

Well Ahhl Be! Hows'a bout them apples. I guess the ministry of agriculture must have been asleep at the wheel whe he/she let that slip on by.

But yet, the yabbie has not infested S.E Asia, Thailand'e economy is still stable, and the air is still.... well as poluted as it was before.

Seriously, that is great news. Yes, I do agree that even if the Yabbie had a chance the roam free, it would end up in a pot in a second.

My beautiful, wonderful, educated Thai wife said the same thing. I asked her if she felt Thais would accept the flavor... Her response was, Thais eat maggots and bugs dug out of bufalo dung, I imagine a mud bug would go over really well.

So, now to try to find some breeding stock for my fish tank. Start small, for medicinal/personal use only. Then I may cook up a bunch for the family.

Thanks for the many posts, and a big thanks to Maizefarmer.

BTW I did not miss the boat, I was not intending on importing them to begin with... too much of a hassle. But if they are here, and I can cook some up.... Ummm my bit of personal heaven.

I can not thank you big enough MaizeFarmer

Edited October 12, 2006 by Dakhar

[Dakhar]

w.aquaculturefarm.com/index.html

I just checked their website. No yabies in stock. Which is probably a strong indication that there is no market for such critters in Thailand, other than at my house.

I am still not disapointed though. Theroetically, I should be able to find some and raise some up for personal use.

Thanks again MaizeFarmer

[chownah]

MaizeFarmer,

Thanks to you and the Mrs. for getting the facts on the legality of raising crayfish in Thailand.

Chownah

Dakhar,

Thanks for your patients and encouragement.

Chownah

[Dakhar]

Chownah

You are officially invited to my first Crawfish boil...

I just checked a recipe for boudin, and it looks like it can be made in Thailand.

If only I had a sausage stuffer.

Any how, thanks again

[Nawtilus]

Sausage stuffers are cheap, about 5000b a month I would reckon. The skin is expensive though at around 60b for 3.

MF, you never miss the boat, just catch the next one.

The thing is that with something like this, you dont really want to be the first one, they are the ones with all the cost and expense and trial and error and risk. If it becomes successfull, markets and demand will be created and you can join the ride.

[Dakhar]

Actually to make boudin, yes sausage caseing would be the way to go about it...

But, they do have what is called a boudin ball, which is bassically boudin removed from the case, balled up, rolled around into some crushed crackers and deep fried.

They are good, so theoritically, you don't have to have sausage caseing. Theritically boudin is basically what we calle "dirty rice" back home. Umm good.

Nawtilus,

You figure this thread may have spawned some competition for burbon street?

[Maizefarmer]

THis missus is out at the moment but she brought back a piece of paper that has details on it of about 4 farms that breed them or have them in Thailand - Lumtarn Tong was one of them - maybe some of the others have stock..................now where is that piece of paper?!

I just phoned had a word with a guy at Lumtarn Tong: the Thai market is limited - most people prefer the Giant Fresh water prawn - grows quicker, costs less to breed and therefore cheaper to sell on the market - side by side at a market the prawns outsell the yabbies by 100 to 1 - and in a Thai dish (with spices) most people wouldnt know one from the other.

I'll stick the details up of the other farms as soon as I can find them, and for the record I aske dhim about any legal issues - there are none as they come from a country whose stock is apparently certified diesese free (Australia). He couldnt comment on the Red Claws from America, but said the issue with them would be a diesese free certificate if imported live to Thailand.

Tim

Edited October 12, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[Nawtilus]

Australia, what a wonderfull country. Hope we manage to keep up the tough customs and quarantine issues to keep it that way for a long long time to come.

Dak... I am not sure, dont think so, as I have never been into Bourbon St and never really intend to. All those bars in Washington send chills up my spine even thinking about them.

I went into one once as I had to meet and american in there, seems i could have been taken to the making of deliverance, could not get out of there quick enough.

Anyway, if anyone is thinking of this as just for a restaurant, they are barking up the wrong tree.

[Dakhar]

Ah Nawtilus,

Deliverence.... must have seen some of my cousins.

[Bizz]

Yabbies

(Co-sponsored by the Fisheries Research and Development Corporation)

by Craig Lawrence*

Introduction

Yabbies (Cherax albidus and Cherax destructor) are indigenous to central and eastern Australia and have received considerable aquacultural interest. Although some yabbies are produced from ponds on purpose-built farms, the vast majority of commercial yabbie production in Australia comes from trapping in farmers' dams what are essentially wild yabbies. This use of existing farm dams originally built to water stock has enabled rapid expansion of the industry because of the low entry cost. The yabbie industry currently harvests around 4000 farm dams in Western Australia. The rapid growth experienced by the industry is expected to continue, with processors reporting an increase this year of up to 400% in the number of farmers harvesting yabbies.

Australian yabbies are in demand internationally due to their high quality, larger size than crayfish produced by overseas competitors, acceptance by European markets as a replacement for diminishing stocks of their own native crayfish, freedom from major diseases and ability to be landed live in the major international markets.

This species clearly poses no treat to European stocks and I stand corrected on this aspect of this thread .

rirdc.gov.au/pub/handbook/yabbies.html

Key messages

• Large international markets exist for our live disease-free yabbies.

• Yabbie farming does not require complicated hatcheries or equipment.

• Yabbies are a native species that are adapted to Australia's harsh climate.

• Yabbies can be exported live to international markets.

[btate]

THis missus is out at the moment but she brought back a piece of paper that has details on it of about 4 farms that breed them or have them in Thailand - Lumtarn Tong was one of them - maybe some of the others have stock..................now where is that piece of paper?!

I just phoned had a word with a guy at Lumtarn Tong: the Thai market is limited - most people prefer the Giant Fresh water prawn - grows quicker, costs less to breed and therefore cheaper to sell on the market - side by side at a market the prawns outsell the yabbies by 100 to 1 - and in a Thai dish (with spices) most people wouldnt know one from the other.

I'll stick the details up of the other farms as soon as I can find them, and for the record I aske dhim about any legal issues - there are none as they come from a country whose stock is apparently certified diesese free (Australia). He couldnt comment on the Red Claws from America, but said the issue with them would be a diesese free certificate if imported live to Thailand.

Tim

MF found a site with food conversion and specifics on growth rates etc for Yabbies. The URL is really really long and am unable to 'fix' it. Google Yabbies, then click on images and click on the BLUE Yabbie shown. Think you'll find it interesting, cycle time for brooders is quite fast if temp is right.

b

[udon]

A few links.

Farming Yabbies

More Yabbies

Farming RedClaw Crays

Farming Marron or Maron (twice as much meat as Yabbies)

A working Redclaw farm with 57 ponds.

More links for Farming Freshwater Crayfish...

More Marron Links..

Edited November 1, 2006 by udon

[phibunmike]

An interesting thread, but some very long posts I have not yet had time to read, so forgive me if I am duplicating something already said...

1. Someone asked why not farm fresh water shrimps in rice paddies after the harvest ? Certainly in my area, there is no water for that after the harvest. The paddies are like concrete. Irrigation might be feasible, but I can't imagine many locals doing that.

2. In my area, the large fresh water prawns are caught (or farmed?) in the river, then held as stock in concrete ponds (for a few days?) ready for sale.

3. I have had discussions with a salt water prawn farming specialist in the Philippines; he said that the prawns get much larger when the salinity of the water is reduced. For ths reason, the farms had wells pumping fresh water into the (tidal) sea water ponds. I mention that in case it is of interest to anyone.

("My area" is Ubon)

[Crushdepth]

1. Someone asked why not farm fresh water shrimps in rice paddies after the harvest ? Certainly in my area, there is no water for that after the harvest. The paddies are like concrete. Irrigation might be feasible, but I can't imagine many locals doing that.

Freshwater shrimp are sometimes grown simultaneously with rice crops or other temporary water bodies. Couple of articles (on farming practices in Bangladesh) that might be of interest are:

* Farmers as scientists: The gher revolution

* Poor people raise prawns for export.

[Dakhar]

I just wanted to post a follow up on my crawfish project. It is kinda of hard going. The critters hate each other while under molting. Other than that they get along OK. The adults seem to be the ones willing to kill each other during molting, while the infants and toddlers seem to get along OK at all times.

I have had only 2 females hatch their eggs. But currently I have 3 females that are "berried" at the moment. So if all goes well this should inject another 300 or so into my collection.

Now, 300 may sound like a big number, but according to what I have read, I would need 200,000 to stock the family pond. Soooooo My grandchildren should have something to do.

Edited May 13, 2007 by Dakhar

[Clipped]

boiled crawdads, oh the memories....i was walking around a dried up rice field about 6 years ago in thailand, and on the ground i found what appeared to be a dried up shell from a crawdad...kinda like finding the skin from the lochness monster...so i would have to assume that crawdads do exist naturally in thailand.

either that or there was a group of beer guzzling farangs who had recently had a crawfish boil in that area...i seriously doubt the latter.

[GungaDin]

More on yabbies http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/search?q=freshwater+crayfish

[GungaDin]

Would anyone still go ahead farming redclaw crayfish when a minimum of 10 hectares are required?

I cannot find anyone farming crays intensively in tanks, not dams.

Read on...... http://queenslandredclaw.org/farm.htm