Why be a Buddhist Monk in Thailand?

[camerata]

In fact, cravings caused the next life is not as logical as it is as close as to scientific theories.

But saying something is "close to scientific theories" is about as helpful as saying it is "logical." I would say that the uniqueness of Buddhism lies in the fact that the methodology of Buddhist practice has parallels with scientific methodology. It also has parallels with accepted modern pseudo-sciences such as psychotherapy.

[fang37]

There are a few books which explain these matters excellently.

[rockyysdt]

Buddhism in truth is an atheist belief so a belief it may be, but it is in fact not a religion.

There has been a lot of debate on this. The majority say no - it is a way of life.

Does it all really matter?

If the majority favor a stance does this make it correct?

It doesn't matter. Buddhism is a way of life, it's not a belief that can be found wrong like other religions.

Re Birth, Nibanna, & Kharma are beliefs.

There are no known scientific ways of verifying them.

Does it matter ? There are also no scientific ways of verifying any God but majority of the world's population believed in at least one.

At least the theory of rebirth and karma is not logic-defying like most God-believing religions, and they are in consistency with scientific theories.

When science proved karma and Rebirth, Buddhism will no longer be Buddhism or religion.

If it doesn't matter, why do you regularly advise that Buddhism has scientific coherence, scientific logic, is undisputed by science, compatible with science, and that you have knowledge of this?

I would also suggest that as Kharma, Re Birth, Nibbanna and Relms of existence can't be proven (scientifically or otherwise), this makes Buddhism a religion.

What is coherent is that Mindfulness & Concentration practices along with keeping the precepts will improve ones life, but in themselves do not constitute Buddhism.

[rockyysdt]

In fact, cravings caused the next life is not as logical as it is as close as to scientific theories.

Hi only1.

I don't understand what this means.

Is it possible you could re word it?

[rockyysdt]

In fact, cravings caused the next life is not as logical as it is as close as to scientific theories.

I would say that the uniqueness of Buddhism lies in the fact that the methodology of Buddhist practice has parallels with scientific methodology. It also has parallels with accepted modern pseudo-sciences such as psychotherapy.

Very much so.

However one could go either way when it comes to acceptance of Re Birth, Kharma, Relms, & formless, deathless state of Nibanna.

The obstacles which get in the way of achieving personal experience are immense for the average person.

There is far too much Greed, Delusion and Aversion, and conditioning is all pervasive.

Edited January 11, 2016 by rockyysdt

[camerata]

Interestingly, the scriptures say that all doubts are resolved when one attains stream-entry (sotapanna).

[only1]

In fact, cravings caused the next life is not as logical as it is as close as to scientific theories.

But saying something is "close to scientific theories" is about as helpful as saying it is "logical." I would say that the uniqueness of Buddhism lies in the fact that the methodology of Buddhist practice has parallels with scientific methodology. It also has parallels with accepted modern pseudo-sciences such as psychotherapy.

Yes, and logical here can also be compared to scientific theory of energy. That's why I always use the word logic. LOGIC comes before science. If it lacked logic or logically defied(again, eg Abahamic religions or Adam and Ex

Eve story), it will definitely be not parallel with science.

Edited January 11, 2016 by only1

[rockyysdt]

Interestingly, the scriptures say that all doubts are resolved when one attains stream-entry (sotapanna).

However, to do this one would have to drop the first three fetters, Self-view (sakkāya-ditthi), Clinging to rites and rituals (sīlabbata-parāmāsa), and Skeptical doubt (vicikicchā), a monumental task in itself.

I don't know if others share my experience.

I'm finding overcoming even simple aspects of my conditioning a very difficult task.

Habitual behavior seems to win over.

[rockyysdt]

But saying something is "close to scientific theories" is about as helpful as saying it is "logical." I would say that the uniqueness of Buddhism lies in the fact that the methodology of Buddhist practice has parallels with scientific methodology. It also has parallels with accepted modern pseudo-sciences such as psychotherapy.

Yes, and logical here can also be compared to scientific theory of energy. That's why I always use the word logic. LOGIC comes before science. If it lacked logic or logically defied(again, eg Abahamic religions or Adam and Ex

Eve story), it will definitely be not parallel with science.

The difficulty hear only1 is that you're misusing the word "logic" in your sentence.

A better word to use in your example is "hypothesis".

Until one proves something (scientifically), it may have the appearance of being logical but may turn out to be illogical once unknown variables become known.

Much better to use Hypothesis.

Hypothesis: a proposition, or set of propositions, set forth as an explanation for the occurrence of some specified group of phenomena, either asserted or merely as a provisional conjecture to guide investigation.

[camerata]

Interestingly, the scriptures say that all doubts are resolved when one attains stream-entry (sotapanna).

However, to do this one would have to drop the first three fetters, Self-view (sakkāya-ditthi), Clinging to rites and rituals (sīlabbata-parāmāsa), and Skeptical doubt (vicikicchā), a monumental task in itself.

Yeah, I didn't say it was easy!

[camerata]

In fact, cravings caused the next life is not as logical as it is as close as to scientific theories.

But saying something is "close to scientific theories" is about as helpful as saying it is "logical." I would say that the uniqueness of Buddhism lies in the fact that the methodology of Buddhist practice has parallels with scientific methodology. It also has parallels with accepted modern pseudo-sciences such as psychotherapy.

Yes, and logical here can also be compared to scientific theory of energy. That's why I always use the word logic. LOGIC comes before science. If it lacked logic or logically defied(again, eg Abahamic religions or Adam and Ex

Eve story), it will definitely be not parallel with science.

You are muddying things up again. There are a few specific teachings in Abrahamic religions which can be scientifically disproved, i.e. that the earth was created in 7 days or that Adam and Eve were the first humans. These involve physical matter. But other core teachings such as God or heaven cannot be scientifically disproved because they are metaphysical - and the same applies to the scriptural teachings on rebirth, heavenly realms and karma for the same reason.

[jacky54]

How much does an average monk make a month from the ceremonies they attend, weddings, funeral, house warming and blessings? I once saw 3 senior looking ones at a Muay Thai match at 1 am betting on the boxers, so it can't be that badly paid. They were taking the money out of donation envelopes, this was in Samut Prakan. Maybe it was their karma to be up to no good?

[camerata]

I think the benefits of monkhood for a Thai are pretty obvious, but the OP asked specifically about expat monks. This is not so simple. The ones in the Forest Tradition are generally pretty serious about practising the Dhamma. I'm not sure about others who stay longer than the typical 3 months (to satisfy the wife's family).

[only1]

How much does an average monk make a month from the ceremonies they attend, weddings, funeral, house warming and blessings? I once saw 3 senior looking ones at a Muay Thai match at 1 am betting on the boxers, so it can't be that badly paid. They were taking the money out of donation envelopes, this was in Samut Prakan. Maybe it was their karma to be up to no good?

How much money could that be ?

Have you read about Pastor Kong Hee from Singapore who is jailed for 8 years ? Those are big money and proven in court.

[jacky54]

Darmakaya is probably the biggest scam going here as far as 'religion' goes.

[camerata]

Thammakaya does seem to emphasise spiritual development for money, yet it has expat monks too. Perhaps this is because the sect is strict about the Vinaya.

[only1]

Darmakaya is probably the biggest scam going here as far as 'religion' goes.

Can share a little more how they scam ?

Edited January 14, 2016 by camerata
No need to bring Christianity into this topic

[jacky54]

It's been gone into in depth on here in the past, their leader has been embroiled in court cases for fraud for a long time. If you go to any of their Wats including the original one in Paknam they will target you aggressively for money. They scam people by pretending to be able to reveal past lives, it's no better than Scientology. While it's founder was very sincere and spiritual it became corrupt and materialistic after he died in 1959, although some even deny he was the founder. Read life as a Siamese monk for an insight into it before the money grabbers took over

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/219742-wat-phra-dhammakaya/

http://www.amazon.com/Life-Siamese-monk-Richard-RANDALL/dp/0951176927/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1452751673&sr=8-1&keywords=life+as+a+siamese+monk

Edited January 14, 2016 by jacky54

[only1]

It's been gone into in depth on here in the past, their leader has been embroiled in court cases for fraud for a long time. If you go to any of their Wats including the original one in Paknam they will target you aggressively for money. They scam people by pretending to be able to reveal past lives, it's no better than Scientology. While it's founder was very sincere and spiritual it became corrupt and materialistic after he died in 1959, although some even deny he was the founder. Read life as a Siamese monk for an insight into it before the money grabbers took over

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/219742-wat-phra-dhammakaya/

http://www.amazon.com/Life-Siamese-monk-Richard-RANDALL/dp/0951176927/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1452751673&sr=8-1&keywords=life+as+a+siamese+monk

The book link seems unrelated. Reviewers raved the book for understanding Buddhism.

This cult have any branch in Bangkok or Chiang Mai ? I will check them to see how they scam.

Is this the same as the one called White Dragon King in Chinese which have quite a few HK celebrities as followers and their leader passed away around 2 years ago ? But this one don't emphasise much on Buddhism although located in Thailand.

[hookedondhamma]

I think the benefits of monkhood for a Thai are pretty obvious, but the OP asked specifically about expat monks. This is not so simple. The ones in the Forest Tradition are generally pretty serious about practising the Dhamma. I'm not sure about others who stay longer than the typical 3 months (to satisfy the wife's family).

The benefits will be according to the determination of the monks one lives with. If one has no knowledge of thai language, the better option would be the international temple in ubon.

After that, depending on ones abbot and/or preceptor, he could go to other branches of yhe ajahn cha lineage.

They're very warm monks and welcome those who share the goal to better themselves Dhamma.

Vs dhammayut temples there's something missing from them ... the ajahn cha branches seem complete but can't out my finger on it.

There are supposed accomplished monks in isaan but keep in kind wherever they are there willebe a large following of both monks and laypeople.

last but not least for any foreigner reading this who desires to take up robes : you don't have to be a monk to break into the path to nibbana. Being a monk is convenient as there is much free time to meditate and focus more on ones flaws, but this.is not the thailand of many years ago and until manyin robes realize the task at hand, they retain their old habits.

Social monks are the norm here, solitary monks are frowned upon - which isn't abnormal considering culture permeates everything in whichever country.

the monks of ajahn cha branches seem more restrained in their actions and speech.

There are others I'm sure but am only relaying what I've observed over the years.

[jacky54]

The book is related as the monk in question studied at Wat Paknam and was taught the same meditation method that Darmakaya teach today.

[only1]

The book is related as the monk in question studied at Wat Paknam and was taught the same meditation method that Darmakaya teach today.

You mean the monk scam ?

I am sure they is nothing wrong with the meditation method.

[sabaijai]

If you would like to discuss the politics of Dhammakaya or Wat Paknam, search for threads devoted to these topics, or start a new topic. Thanks.

[sklmeeera]

Rebirth and karma may seem logical (craving pushes one into the next life etc), but they depend on unproven/unprovable premises that a mechanism exists that enables them to work. This is no different from theistic religions that claim - seemingly logically - that the patterns found in nature suggest a Creator.

Rather than claiming that Buddhism is logical, I think it is better to promote the ways it is unique, i.e. that the goal of nibbana/nirvana can be attained in this lifetime, and that the techniques used result in a positive and continuous development of the mind.

Rebirth can be proven to yourself . But you have to understand dependent origination and if you fully understand that then you can prove rebirth and karma ...to yourself .

[rockyysdt]

Rebirth and karma may seem logical (craving pushes one into the next life etc), but they depend on unproven/unprovable premises that a mechanism exists that enables them to work. This is no different from theistic religions that claim - seemingly logically - that the patterns found in nature suggest a Creator.

Rather than claiming that Buddhism is logical, I think it is better to promote the ways it is unique, i.e. that the goal of nibbana/nirvana can be attained in this lifetime, and that the techniques used result in a positive and continuous development of the mind.

Rebirth can be proven to yourself . But you have to understand dependent origination and if you fully understand that then you can prove rebirth and karma ...to yourself .

This is what the Buddha taught.

In my attempts to establish continuous Awareness or Mindfulness, I have observed conditioning both in myself and in others which virtually is next to impossible to overcome.

Practice of the 8 Fold Path includes the need to overcome deeply ingrained habits in most of us.

I am seeing colleagues on a daily basis locked in their personal jails.

Jails with invisible bars, built of rigid habit.

Simply knowing Dependent Origination will not reveal insight or proof of Re Birth.

Such an insight can only come from personal experience gained through dedicated practice.

A practice extremely difficult to build up to or maintain, given our personal jails.

[VincentRJ]

Rebirth and karma may seem logical (craving pushes one into the next life etc), but they depend on unproven/unprovable premises that a mechanism exists that enables them to work. This is no different from theistic religions that claim - seemingly logically - that the patterns found in nature suggest a Creator.

Rather than claiming that Buddhism is logical, I think it is better to promote the ways it is unique, i.e. that the goal of nibbana/nirvana can be attained in this lifetime, and that the techniques used result in a positive and continuous development of the mind.

Rebirth can be proven to yourself . But you have to understand dependent origination and if you fully understand that then you can prove rebirth and karma ...to yourself .

This is what the Buddha taught.

In my attempts to establish continuous Awareness or Mindfulness, I have observed conditioning both in myself and in others which virtually is next to impossible to overcome.

Practice of the 8 Fold Path includes the need to overcome deeply ingrained habits in most of us.

I am seeing colleagues on a daily basis locked in their personal jails.

Jails with invisible bars, built of rigid habit.

Simply knowing Dependent Origination will not reveal insight or proof of Re Birth.

Such an insight can only come from personal experience gained through dedicated practice.

A practice extremely difficult to build up to or maintain, given our personal jails.

Hi Rocky,

It would be interesting, and perhaps even useful, if you could give us some specific examples of your impossible-to-get-rid-of conditioning which you think might be hampering your progress.

The obvious ones for most people are sexual desire, an appetite for tasty food without due consideration for it's wholesomeness, and the pursuit and acquisition of wealth and fame which appeal to vanity and ego.

A certain degree of conditioning is necessary for survival, is it not? I speak English because I have been conditioned to speak English. I have a certain belief in rationality and common sense, which I think must affect my decisions and activities in life. Am I 'imprisoned' by my views of rationality? Would it be useful, or serve any good purpose, if I were to discard such conditioning?

I've often found intriguing the Eastern tradition of the ascetic who sometimes gives up all possessions, and sometimes even all clothes, and goes wandering completely naked (in India); and the Buddhist ascetic who sometimes lives alone in a cave for many years.

These are extreme examples of the measures that some people take to rid themselves of all concerns and conditioning, in pursuit of that ineffable goal of unconditioned bliss.

However, whilst still alive such people are surely still dependent upon conditioning. They need food to continue living and they are dependent on the cultural conditioning of others to provide that food.

[rockyysdt]

Hi Vincent.

Conditioning is vital to our survival.

Our problem is that we each carry a unique mix with some good and some not so good habits.

We also apply such habits and beliefs to many situations in our lives and often act, react or conclude inappropriate ly due to these.

There are far too many to list but the common attribute is their influence on our predisposition to practice and on Kharma.

Some are obvious and others, due to delusion less obvious.

I don't think it's a matter of eliminating conditioning.

That which is impermanent is conditioned.

I think it's developing a state of concentrated Mindfulness/Awareness in which we are able to view the 5 Skandas as they unfold, and intervene, replacing reaction with wise action, which is sourced from Wisdom.

A wisdom which has grown from deep levels of practice.

NB: Which of your habits would you drop, if you knew for a fact that you will be Re Born for eternity, suffering in all manner of ways, without Awakening?

And if we choose not to drop any, is this a form of attachment?

Edited February 23, 2016 by rockyysdt

[VincentRJ]

Hi Vincent.

Conditioning is vital to our survival.

Our problem is that we each carry a unique mix with some good and some not so good habits.

Rocky,

Surely the problem is in (1) not being able to discern what are the bad habits that we have, and (2), having discerned them, or become aware of them, not being able to control them or relinquish them.

For example, I used to smoke for a number of years, but eventually succeeded in giving up the habit, after many tries. The motive was a concern for my health.

I just wondered, since you've mentioned this uncontrollable aspect of conditioning a few times, if there is a specific problem relating to your own conditioning, which you find insurmountable in respect to your Buddhist activities, and which you could share with us.

　

Which of your habits would you drop, if you knew for a fact that you will be Re Born for eternity, suffering in all manner of ways, without Awakening?

This sort of question appears to be an 'oxymoron'. From my rational perspective, it doesn't seem possible, logical or even sensible, that anyone could know for a fact that he would be reborn for eternity, suffering in all manner of ways, without also being 'awakened'. The 'awakening' is surely the realisation of the fact.

[rockyysdt]

Rocky,

Surely the problem is in (1) not being able to discern what are the bad habits that we have, and (2), having discerned them, or become aware of them, not being able to control them or relinquish them.

For example, I used to smoke for a number of years, but eventually succeeded in giving up the habit, after many tries. The motive was a concern for my health.

I just wondered, since you've mentioned this uncontrollable aspect of conditioning a few times, if there is a specific problem relating to your own conditioning, which you find insurmountable in respect to your Buddhist activities, and which you could share with us.

　

Precisely.

Some are deluded and are unaware of their bad habits.

A colleague, working in a sedentary job, who is 55 kg over weight, smokes, wheezes constantly as his lungs gasp for oxygen, sneaks two cans of Coke from his bosses fridge which he drinks on the way home.

This is a small example of his diet.

I indicated that he is consuming about 26 teaspoons of sugar right there and that he is headed for serious health problems.

He replied that he is healthy and his cholesterol is low and his blood pressure is good.

Some are aware but can't find the strength to implement change in their lifestyles.

My problems revolve mainly around:

Finding excuses not to practice.

Working far to hard.

Making myself always available to assist family and friends with their practical issues.

Having Dependents who rely on my income placing further pressure on my life.

Everyone will have their own mix of conditioning (excuses).

You've previously expressed an inclination towards Buddhism due to the Buddhas Kalama Sutta.

Being a man of logic and science, offers such as " Kalamas, when you yourselves know: "These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness," enter on and abide in them.' is very appealing.

Doesn't this however stop one from investing enough time and effort to practice vs ones conditioned life patterns, due to skepticism in the absence of proof at hand?

Isn't this a Catch 22 as actual experience of truth cannot come about without a considerable investment of time and effort?

Doesn't this require much faith?

We all have a subtle mix of belief/habit which inhibits our progress.

These beliefs/habits are almost impossible to overcome.

We have all discussed many times what the Buddha taught.

We have gone over the 4 Noble Truths and 8 Fold Path.

Why do we continue to kick tyres and not reach into our pockets and buy?

Is it our conditioning, unique in each of us, which controls our lives?

Do we cleverly continue to come up with reasons not to embrace the teaching and practice?

Edited February 23, 2016 by rockyysdt

[VincentRJ]

Rocky,

Surely the problem is in (1) not being able to discern what are the bad habits that we have, and (2), having discerned them, or become aware of them, not being able to control them or relinquish them.

For example, I used to smoke for a number of years, but eventually succeeded in giving up the habit, after many tries. The motive was a concern for my health.

I just wondered, since you've mentioned this uncontrollable aspect of conditioning a few times, if there is a specific problem relating to your own conditioning, which you find insurmountable in respect to your Buddhist activities, and which you could share with us.

　

My problems revolve mainly around:

Finding excuses not to practice.

Working far to hard.

Making myself always available to assist family and friends with their practical issues.

Having Dependents who rely on my income placing further pressure on my life.

Everyone will have their own mix of conditioning (excuses).

Rocky,

Finding excuses not to practices gives the impression you don't really want to practice, and therefore try to rationalise or justify your lack of practice with all sorts of excuses.

Surely, if you really wanted to practice meditation, you would find excuses not to make yourself always available to assist your family, friends and dependents.

Remember, Gautama is sometimes criticised for leaving his wife and baby to search for a solution to the extreme suffering he witnessed outside of his palace.

In a modern Western society with abundant social services, we don't have that motivation of witnessing extreme suffering. Perhaps that's the problem, regarding the motivation of Westermers to follow the Buddhist path.