Koh Tao: Suspects found guilty of murdering British backpackers

[HUH]

Unlike the anxious Glee Club who are obviously feeling some form of insecurity, I'm firmly in what they call the armchair detective camp. To me that means I will endeavor to find out as much information that is possible from all sources, be that official statements, press, social media or even hearsay if I feel it could be credible. What I draw from all that information are my own theories that to me can change as time goes by dependent on any new information that comes out. Certain information can be just as credible from social media and sometimes even more credible than official reports.

Here's my personal view on the KT tragedy:

Do we know the truth yet? Absolutely not and probably never will. I'm convinced the prosecution and some prosecution witnesses are holding vital information that should have been shared. By the same token I'm also convinced the B2 are holding back and for the sake of justice also tell the whole truth even if it implicates them directly.

I'm not going into the evidence, the DNA or the reasons why but I will just say that for me this is currently not a safe conviction that sentences 2 people to death, there are to many concerns and too many inconsistencies and confusion from all sides that need to be addressed.

What would help make up my mind either way?

Nothing short of a full serious independent investigation of everything from ground zero. A pipe dream but one can only hope. Until that happens however I will continue to seek information from all sources to make my own judgements and form my own opinions. This is far from over yet and I am looking forward to the next stage of the judicial process.

For those who have their minds made up that this is done and dusted, well I can only say that you appear to share the views of some very important people in this, not only the prosecution and RTP but also the Millers family. However this does not mean the full truth is out and the truth should override everything else unless you have something to hide.

Edited January 1, 2016 by HUH

[boomerangutang]

DEFENCE LAWYERS, why was the Original Officer who led the initial investigation not on the witness stand?

Simply incredible. Until the trial I always thought the Burmese were 100% innocent, now I think they were involved but not in the murders but the "cleaning and rearranging" of the crime scene. The defence case seems scared to bring some very serious evidence to court.

The defense was exceedingly careful not to broach topics which might implicate those who likely did the crime. It's understandable, to a point, because their job was to solely defend the defendants. Yet, I also think they proceeded too cautiously. There are several witnesses they could have called, but didn't. A big factor was time restriction - they're alloted half the time as the prosecution for calling witnesses. Second and bigger reason is what I mentioned herein: they didn't want to annoy or alienate the judges by bringing in mentions of evidence which would implicate anyone other than the chosen defendants.

I am intrigued by the light - how was the moon - was there cloud cover - that time in the morning?

Yes, there are q's re; scientific-related aspects - climate, lighting, tides, etc. which weren't addressed via the investigation or at the trial. Unfortunately, Thais don't relate much to science. They know all about talismans, taboos, ghosts, soap opera plots and fortune-tellers, but science is usually a big 'arai na?' All the investigators were Thai. Go figure.

[TheLobster]

"The parents of a British holiday maker who died in suspicious circumstances in Thailand are convinced he was murdered – and the killing covered up to protect tourism.”

“Despite being warned to keep quiet by people on the island, the family have refused to be silenced.”

“She added: “The Police didn’t look at his room or the area where he was found. There was no attempt to investigate.”

"They spent most of their time laughing and joking as we asked questions.”

“Tracy said her son Matt was warned there are “powerful people on the island”, and that the family should leave rather than stirring up trouble.”

“They also heard other holiday makers had died on the island and their bodies “thrown into the water in the hope they’d be washed away”.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/thailand-beach-death-parents-convinced-4410135

“They also heard other holiday makers had died on the island and their bodies “thrown into the water in the hope they’d be washed away”

So doesn't sound like a mafia killing then ?the 2 bodies were left on the beach.

This crime scene looks like it was someone very sick in the head and no knowledge of dna but knowledge of fingerprint evidence hence why none on hoe handle and Davids mobile.

Would someone care to post a link of dna being used in a court case in Burma?

One body was dragged into the sea.

[rockingrobin]

DEFENCE LAWYERS, why was the Original Officer who led the initial investigation not on the witness stand?

Simply incredible. Until the trial I always thought the Burmese were 100% innocent, now I think they were involved but not in the murders but the "cleaning and rearranging" of the crime scene. The defence case seems scared to bring some very serious evidence to court.

The defense was exceedingly careful not to broach topics which might implicate those who likely did the crime. It's understandable, to a point, because their job was to solely defend the defendants. Yet, I also think they proceeded too cautiously. There are several witnesses they could have called, but didn't. A big factor was time restriction - they're alloted half the time as the prosecution for calling witnesses. Second and bigger reason is what I mentioned herein: they didn't want to annoy or alienate the judges by bringing in mentions of evidence which would implicate anyone other than the chosen defendants.

I am intrigued by the light - how was the moon - was there cloud cover - that time in the morning?

Yes, there are q's re; scientific-related aspects - climate, lighting, tides, etc. which weren't addressed via the investigation or at the trial. Unfortunately, Thais don't relate much to science. They know all about talismans, taboos, ghosts, soap opera plots and fortune-tellers, but science is usually a big 'arai na?' All the investigators were Thai. Go figure.

A defence lawyer had earlier made a request to the court, asking for extra statements from more than 15 Myanmar workers on the tourist island included as defence witnesses. It said they earlier had fears for their lives if they gave statements to the Thai police while in Thailand.

But this request was turned down by the court, on grounds that all existing witnesses were already on the lists, including 60 people on the public prosecutors' list who are local police, forensic police personnel and footage from surveillance cameras, a court source said.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Koh-Tao-murder-trial-rescheduled-30250774.html

[Khun Han]

DEFENCE LAWYERS, why was the Original Officer who led the initial investigation not on the witness stand?

Simply incredible. Until the trial I always thought the Burmese were 100% innocent, now I think they were involved but not in the murders but the "cleaning and rearranging" of the crime scene. The defence case seems scared to bring some very serious evidence to court.

The defense was exceedingly careful not to broach topics which might implicate those who likely did the crime. It's understandable, to a point, because their job was to solely defend the defendants. Yet, I also think they proceeded too cautiously. There are several witnesses they could have called, but didn't. A big factor was time restriction - they're alloted half the time as the prosecution for calling witnesses. Second and bigger reason is what I mentioned herein: they didn't want to annoy or alienate the judges by bringing in mentions of evidence which would implicate anyone other than the chosen defendants.

I am intrigued by the light - how was the moon - was there cloud cover - that time in the morning?

Yes, there are q's re; scientific-related aspects - climate, lighting, tides, etc. which weren't addressed via the investigation or at the trial. Unfortunately, Thais don't relate much to science. They know all about talismans, taboos, ghosts, soap opera plots and fortune-tellers, but science is usually a big 'arai na?' All the investigators were Thai. Go figure.

A defence lawyer had earlier made a request to the court, asking for extra statements from more than 15 Myanmar workers on the tourist island included as defence witnesses. It said they earlier had fears for their lives if they gave statements to the Thai police while in Thailand.

But this request was turned down by the court, on grounds that all existing witnesses were already on the lists, including 60 people on the public prosecutors' list who are local police, forensic police personnel and footage from surveillance cameras, a court source said.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Koh-Tao-murder-trial-rescheduled-30250774.html

And didn't the prosecution call much less than the allocated 60 witnesses, despite allowing a couple of police officers to run the clock down into overtime by waffling on for almost an eternity?

[DJVillain]

"He has organized campaigns to ruin businesses in Koh Tao"

And that really hits a raw nerve, doesn't it?

This!!

A lot of these guys who are happy with the verdict have vested interests in keeping the status quo the way is it on Koh Tao and not having the boat rocked.

So what if two young lads who had nothing to do with it go to prison and get the death penalty... As long as the money keeps rolling in...

Despicable people

[AleG]

You think it's OK to attempt to ruin people's businesses and hurt their employees and their dependents based on unfounded accusations?

As a matter of principles I don't; but apparently some people just can't understand the concept of principles and need to look for some ulterior motivations behind a person an ethical position...

Why not?

The Thai police do it to peoples lives in 'safe rooms' to get the answers they want; why can't it work the other way?

So you think that is OK to do unethical things to harm people because you think that some other people did something unethical?

Wow... just wow.

[Zeberdee]

"He has organized campaigns to ruin businesses in Koh Tao"

And that really hits a raw nerve, doesn't it?

This!!

A lot of these guys who are happy with the verdict have vested interests in keeping the status quo the way is it on Koh Tao and not having the boat rocked.

So what if two young lads who had nothing to do with it go to prison and get the death penalty... As long as the money keeps rolling in...

Despicable people

Of course they want it swept under the carpet asap, so they can carry on 'living the dream' on that hellhole island.

God forbid it might affect their long running competition of who can sleep with the most fresh meat dive students.

[HUH]

You think it's OK to attempt to ruin people's businesses and hurt their employees and their dependents based on unfounded accusations?

As a matter of principles I don't; but apparently some people just can't understand the concept of principles and need to look for some ulterior motivations behind a person an ethical position...

Why not?

The Thai police do it to peoples lives in 'safe rooms' to get the answers they want; why can't it work the other way?

A bit nearer the mark are the serious allegations of Torture by the Thai police of the B2 which still haven't been investigated and probably never will be despite calls from Amnesty and HRW

Amnesty International last week called for an independent investigation into allegations that torture was used to get confessions in the case. The two men said they were innocent and gave confessions in fear of their lives. The Thai government denied the torture claims.

Human Rights Watch called for the ruling to be reviewed, in a statement following the verdict.

“In a trial where torture allegations by the two accused were left uninvestigated and DNA evidence was called into question by Thailand's most prominent forensic pathologist, both the ruling and these death sentences are profoundly disturbing,” said Phil Robertson, the deputy director of Human Rights Watch's Asia division.

Edited January 1, 2016 by HUH

[asiamaster]

The reason I posted the hair pics was, someone posed a challenge.

I obliged.

But of course, the challenger had nothing to say...

asiamaster, on 01 Jan 2016 - 12:18, said:

MorristheRunt, on 01 Jan 2016 - 11:57, said:

If were talking hairstyles, it seemed a little strange that a certain student in Bangkok suddenly had a very different hairstyle when he appeared with his lawyer to explain his innocence!

Oh yes very different. Kindly provide some pics so we can do a comparison. Preferably just before the murder and just after he had his haircut.

On all the pictures you sent of Nomsod you can still see his ears. You have proven nothing at all.

Edited January 1, 2016 by asiamaster

[Khun Han]

The reason I posted the hair pics was, someone posed a challenge.

I obliged.

But of course, the challenger had nothing to say...

asiamaster, on 01 Jan 2016 - 12:18, said:

MorristheRunt, on 01 Jan 2016 - 11:57, said:

If were talking hairstyles, it seemed a little strange that a certain student in Bangkok suddenly had a very different hairstyle when he appeared with his lawyer to explain his innocence!

Oh yes very different. Kindly provide some pics so we can do a comparison. Preferably just before the murder and just after he had his haircut.

On all the pictures you sent of Nomsod you can still see his ears. You have proven nothing at all.

And you can also see Wei Phyo's ear in the photo of him that you've re-posted .

[DJVillain]

You think it's OK to attempt to ruin people's businesses and hurt their employees and their dependents based on unfounded accusations?

As a matter of principles I don't; but apparently some people just can't understand the concept of principles and need to look for some ulterior motivations behind a person an ethical position...

Why not?

The Thai police do it to peoples lives in 'safe rooms' to get the answers they want; why can't it work the other way?

So you think that is OK to do unethical things to harm people because you think that some other people did something unethical?

Wow... just wow.

When in Rome!

[glenmohr]

Wow I thought reaching 100 pages would be a milestone....I think just today alone there has been 30 or more pages of worthless speculation and opinions added. You guys really need to get a life. Its done, over, finished, kaput, owari desu.

Yea, it's done for the scapegoats. Some people (yourself?) want it that way. If Thai officials and the Headman's people get their way, the scapegoats will be literally kaput as soon as possible. Kaput = dead. The dead can't talk. That's how officials want it. Plus, now that the boys are officially found guilty, there can't be any other culprits. No more trials on this case. No matter that the real culprits are probably roaming around, laughing, checking out the new pretty young naive farang chicks who come giggling over on boats every day. The big questions for the local guys are;

.... prettiest, cutest?

.... drink lots of alcohol?

.... loosest?

.... easiest to seduce?

.... who's going to buy them gifts?

......alright Mon, Nomsod and all your tough guy sexy boy buddies .....the parties go on every night - late, lots of booze flowing! Other drugs too, including date-rape drugs. Alright - Party On!!!! The cops can't touch you, ha ha ha ha!

Seems to me, if the B2 were sitting on any evidence that could put away the 'real killers', they'd be dead already lest there be some deal cut to turn state's evidence and be whisked away in the dead-of-night to some location out of reach of the Headman's people.

there is no doubt in my mind that the B2 know who did it and may have assisted in some of the arrangements post mortem. I agree with you JLC. If they had talked their life expectancy would plummet. The now tragedy is that their life expectancy may be very short anyway.

[DJVillain]

You think it's OK to attempt to ruin people's businesses and hurt their employees and their dependents based on unfounded accusations?

As a matter of principles I don't; but apparently some people just can't understand the concept of principles and need to look for some ulterior motivations behind a person an ethical position...

Why not?

The Thai police do it to peoples lives in 'safe rooms' to get the answers they want; why can't it work the other way?

So you think that is OK to do unethical things to harm people because you think that some other people did something unethical?

Wow... just wow.

You seem to think its fine to torture poor people into confessing to heinous crimes so that tourists aren't scared to come and spend money on Koh Tao (I would think because you have business interests there)

I think its perfectly fine to destablise the businesses and lives of people who believe that torture is acceptable in order to get the truth.

If causing every single bar and dive school on Koh Tao to have to close down to make someone bleat and tell the truth (because someone on that goddamn island knows something), then so be it... I hope everyone there goes bankrupt and would happily see every business go under...

The only difference between you and I is that I don't like the idea of seeing innocent people get put to death for the sake of my bank balance

[smedly]

"He has organized campaigns to ruin businesses in Koh Tao"

And that really hits a raw nerve, doesn't it?

This!!

A lot of these guys who are happy with the verdict have vested interests in keeping the status quo the way is it on Koh Tao and not having the boat rocked.

So what if two young lads who had nothing to do with it go to prison and get the death penalty... As long as the money keeps rolling in...

Despicable people

Of course they want it swept under the carpet asap, so they can carry on 'living the dream' on that hellhole island.

God forbid it might affect their long running competition of who can sleep with the most fresh meat dive students.

although this particular crime turned out to be a murder there was a very interesting post on TVF some time ago making reference to Koh Tao and its less than savory past criminal activities especially those involving rape accusations made by young western girls holidaying on the Island, there have also been suspected murders, I can't find the post but it was made by someone that lived there for a decent length of time

This particular crime against Hannah could well have started as an intended rape that went bad because of the interference of David and culminated in a double murder.

Possibly Lots of young innocent western girls being prayed upon by local thugs who seem have the run of the place and an ego and attitude that they can get away with anything when the opportunity presents.

Most murder investigations have an almost identical approach by police investigators

1. Establish a motive (very important) - in this case it was claimed to be sexual in nature (UK coroner stated no evidence of rape)

2. Investigations almost always start from the location the victims were last known to be alive and from there look for a motive - the initial investigation more or less seemed to have started in this way but then suddenly stopped and went dark. A possible motive was the strongly rumoured altercation with one of the staff were Hannah was last seen alive

3. Establish the movements of the victims from item 2 above by interviewing witnesses and review cctv footage if available - not done - hidden or prevented, were they together ? did they leave together ? times ? who did they talk to ? who were they with ?

4. The rest is down to (SOCO) gathering evidence from the crime scene (we all know how that went) bringing it together to establish possible suspects based on the motive and linking them to the crime using the gathered evidence, in this particular crime it was primarily the DNA evidence they claimed to have but have yet never produced, also the injuries to David especially the small puncture wounds never properly explained.

5. Make a case for prosecution using all of the above and present to court

for me there are serious issues with every item listed above which is why I remain unconvinced

[glenmohr]

If were talking hairstyles, it seemed a little strange that a certain student in Bangkok suddenly had a very different hairstyle when he appeared with his lawyer to explain his innocence!

Also the same student suddenly went into the monkhood as soon as the Burmese were arrested.

Coincidence....maybe.....but could also be something very different..

Oh yes very different. Kindly provide some pics so we can do a comparison. Preferably just before the murder and just after he had his haircut.

Ah yes very suspicious that he went into monk hood. Quite uncommon with guys his age is it?

it's all about the height, we now have a range of 150-170cm as B2 are tiny, height is something that could easily be determined

another thing I don't understand is why other better quality cctv images were not used to show this man running in the street, we have already seen the one across from AC bar showing the victims entering the bar

At the every earliest stages a senior policeman announced they were looking for an asian man around 170 cms. After a while that was modified to 160/170 and then lately amended to 150/170 because we all know the B2 are quite short.

I understood that original profile of 170 cms was based on CCTV footage examined by the original team, now it would appear that that cctv footage has been subsequently all used up and is no longer available, being all used up.

[smedly]

I too find it strange that the DNA methods were not challenged by the defence.

Can someone remind me what the "methods" were?

was it PCR, STR or did they use AmpFLP? What method was used to create a distinction between Hannah's and the other DNA was it differential lysis or mtDNA?

How many runs were made on each sample?

How did the lab ensure there was no contamination?

Were each person's samples sent to separate labs? because clearly one labs wouldn't be expected to process all samples, without adequate time periods to remove the possibility of contamination?

Where are the results of the negative control runs - and the contamination logs?

And what about the Electropherograms (E-grams) - I mean the lab reports had all of this information right?

The Court report (Docket Number: 2040/2557; Red Case Number: 2558) says:

STR vWA analysis: DNA from rectum of Hannah Witheridge

• 16 matching loci to Zaw Lin (Zoren) & 16 matching loci to Wai Phyo (Win)

STR vWA analysis: DNA from vagina of Hannah Witheridge

• 16 matching loci to Wai Phyo (Win)

STR D2S1338 analysis: DNA from right nipple of Hannah Witheridge

• Positive match to Wai Phyo (Win), loci 20 & 25 missing

I don't have the answers to your other questions as I wasn't in Court, but I have read the Court report which states the above information.

The Court report has a lot of information (63 pages of it) that everyone should read.

I'm still waiting for the unofficial English translation, as I do not have the time or energy to translate the entire document myself.

Thanks for your contribution but it basically changes nothing from a DNA perspective unless they can produce the original samples and that they are independently verified otherwise it's just a lot of writing on a page

[TheCruncher]

I too find it strange that the DNA methods were not challenged by the defence.

Can someone remind me what the "methods" were?

was it PCR, STR or did they use AmpFLP? What method was used to create a distinction between Hannah's and the other DNA was it differential lysis or mtDNA?

How many runs were made on each sample?

How did the lab ensure there was no contamination?

Were each person's samples sent to separate labs? because clearly one labs wouldn't be expected to process all samples, without adequate time periods to remove the possibility of contamination?

Where are the results of the negative control runs - and the contamination logs?

And what about the Electropherograms (E-grams) - I mean the lab reports had all of this information right?

The Court report (Docket Number: 2040/2557; Red Case Number: 2558) says:

STR vWA analysis: DNA from rectum of Hannah Witheridge

• 16 matching loci to Zaw Lin (Zoren) & 16 matching loci to Wai Phyo (Win)

STR vWA analysis: DNA from vagina of Hannah Witheridge

• 16 matching loci to Wai Phyo (Win)

STR D2S1338 analysis: DNA from right nipple of Hannah Witheridge

• Positive match to Wai Phyo (Win), loci 20 & 25 missing

I don't have the answers to your other questions as I wasn't in Court, but I have read the Court report which states the above information.

The Court report has a lot of information (63 pages of it) that everyone should read.

I'm still waiting for the unofficial English translation, as I do not have the time or energy to translate the entire document myself.

Good post STE, and I hope you'll be able to post the translated court report one day.

Edited January 1, 2016 by Maestro
Removed nonsensical part of the post

[glenmohr]

"He has organized campaigns to ruin businesses in Koh Tao"

And that really hits a raw nerve, doesn't it?

This!!

A lot of these guys who are happy with the verdict have vested interests in keeping the status quo the way is it on Koh Tao and not having the boat rocked.

So what if two young lads who had nothing to do with it go to prison and get the death penalty... As long as the money keeps rolling in...

Despicable people

Of course they want it swept under the carpet asap, so they can carry on 'living the dream' on that hellhole island.

God forbid it might affect their long running competition of who can sleep with the most fresh meat dive students.

although this particular crime turned out to be a murder there was a very interesting post on TVF some time ago making reference to Koh Tao and its less than savory past criminal activities especially those involving rape accusations made by young western girls holidaying on the Island, there have also been suspected murders, I can't find the post but it was made by someone that lived there for a decent length of time

This particular crime against Hannah could well have started as an intended rape that went bad because of the interference of David and culminated in a double murder.

Possibly Lots of young innocent western girls being prayed upon by local thugs who seem have the run of the place and an ego and attitude that they can get away with anything when the opportunity presents.

Most murder investigations have an almost identical approach by police investigators

1. Establish a motive (very important) - in this case it was claimed to be sexual in nature (UK coroner stated no evidence of rape)

2. Investigations almost always start from the location the victims were last known to be alive and from there look for a motive - the initial investigation more or less seemed to have started in this way but then suddenly stopped and went dark. A possible motive was the strongly rumoured altercation with one of the staff were Hannah was last seen alive

3. Establish the movements of the victims from item 2 above by interviewing witnesses and review cctv footage if available - not done - hidden or prevented, were they together ? did they leave together ? times ? who did they talk to ? who were they with ?

4. The rest is down to (SOCO) gathering evidence from the crime scene (we all know how that went) bringing it together to establish possible suspects based on the motive and linking them to the crime using the gathered evidence, in this particular crime it was primarily the DNA evidence they claimed to have but have yet never produced, also the injuries to David especially the small puncture wounds never properly explained.

5. Make a case for prosecution using all of the above and present to court

for me there are serious issues with every item listed above which is why I remain unconvinced

Think Smedley you may be referring to "Mike Early Dark Side of Paradise", if you google that you will find Mike's website and forum on this case, he had lived and worked there for at least 2 years, Kiwi guy now based in California. He advises that he has had several threats from Koh Tao.His writing was used as the basis for a feature in Time magazine or NY Times. I believe he was writing on life on Koh Tao before the latest series of murders. The Koh Tao mafia have spread unflattering stories about him personally, he denies these allegations have any truth.

[Khun Han]

I too find it strange that the DNA methods were not challenged by the defence.

Can someone remind me what the "methods" were?

was it PCR, STR or did they use AmpFLP? What method was used to create a distinction between Hannah's and the other DNA was it differential lysis or mtDNA?

How many runs were made on each sample?

How did the lab ensure there was no contamination?

Were each person's samples sent to separate labs? because clearly one labs wouldn't be expected to process all samples, without adequate time periods to remove the possibility of contamination?

Where are the results of the negative control runs - and the contamination logs?

And what about the Electropherograms (E-grams) - I mean the lab reports had all of this information right?

The Court report (Docket Number: 2040/2557; Red Case Number: 2558) says:

STR vWA analysis: DNA from rectum of Hannah Witheridge

• 16 matching loci to Zaw Lin (Zoren) & 16 matching loci to Wai Phyo (Win)

STR vWA analysis: DNA from vagina of Hannah Witheridge

• 16 matching loci to Wai Phyo (Win)

STR D2S1338 analysis: DNA from right nipple of Hannah Witheridge

• Positive match to Wai Phyo (Win), loci 20 & 25 missing

I don't have the answers to your other questions as I wasn't in Court, but I have read the Court report which states the above information.

The Court report has a lot of information (63 pages of it) that everyone should read.

I'm still waiting for the unofficial English translation, as I do not have the time or energy to translate the entire document myself.

Good post STE, and I hope you'll be able to post the translated court report one day.

It's unlikely that a translation of the full court report will have much more than curiosity value for the reason that Smedly keeps on outlining. The judge(s) clearly stated that the only compelling evidence is the DNA evidence, which they consider to be sound. But the DNA evidence has been categorically proven to be very unsound so far. Unless the prosecuters can come up with much, much better DNA evidence, what is good enough for the Thai judiciary will continue to be derided by experts and journalists everywhere.

[AleG]

Of course they want it swept under the carpet asap, so they can carry on 'living the dream' on that hellhole island.

God forbid it might affect their long running competition of who can sleep with the most fresh meat dive students.

although this particular crime turned out to be a murder there was a very interesting post on TVF some time ago making reference to Koh Tao and its less than savory past criminal activities especially those involving rape accusations made by young western girls holidaying on the Island, there have also been suspected murders, I can't find the post but it was made by someone that lived there for a decent length of time

This particular crime against Hannah could well have started as an intended rape that went bad because of the interference of David and culminated in a double murder.

Possibly Lots of young innocent western girls being prayed upon by local thugs who seem have the run of the place and an ego and attitude that they can get away with anything when the opportunity presents.

Most murder investigations have an almost identical approach by police investigators

1. Establish a motive (very important) - in this case it was claimed to be sexual in nature (UK coroner stated no evidence of rape)

2. Investigations almost always start from the location the victims were last known to be alive and from there look for a motive - the initial investigation more or less seemed to have started in this way but then suddenly stopped and went dark. A possible motive was the strongly rumoured altercation with one of the staff were Hannah was last seen alive

3. Establish the movements of the victims from item 2 above by interviewing witnesses and review cctv footage if available - not done - hidden or prevented, were they together ? did they leave together ? times ? who did they talk to ? who were they with ?

4. The rest is down to (SOCO) gathering evidence from the crime scene (we all know how that went) bringing it together to establish possible suspects based on the motive and linking them to the crime using the gathered evidence, in this particular crime it was primarily the DNA evidence they claimed to have but have yet never produced, also the injuries to David especially the small puncture wounds never properly explained.

5. Make a case for prosecution using all of the above and present to court

for me there are serious issues with every item listed above which is why I remain unconvinced

Yes, there are serious issues with every item, namely that you assume facts not in evidence, if not directly contested by the known facts.

1. The UK coroner (according to Andy Hall) said that she found no rape related injuries, which does not mean rape didn't occur.

2. You assume the police changed the direction of the investigation for... reasons, the rumor you are clinging to has never been substantiated by any credible source.

3. The prosecution spent one day (12 hours) going through CCTV footage tracing the movements of the victims.

4. The DNA evidence was presented in court, you are in absolute denial regarding that. As for the injuries, again, you assume they were not explained... did you even bother to read the preliminary verdict report?

5. That's what the prosecution did.

I suggest that you remain unconvinced because your assumptions don't match with the known facts. If you would inform yourself and stop rejecting facts that you don't like things would probably become less confusing.

[TheCruncher]

I too find it strange that the DNA methods were not challenged by the defence.

Can someone remind me what the "methods" were?

was it PCR, STR or did they use AmpFLP? What method was used to create a distinction between Hannah's and the other DNA was it differential lysis or mtDNA?

How many runs were made on each sample?

How did the lab ensure there was no contamination?

Were each person's samples sent to separate labs? because clearly one labs wouldn't be expected to process all samples, without adequate time periods to remove the possibility of contamination?

Where are the results of the negative control runs - and the contamination logs?

And what about the Electropherograms (E-grams) - I mean the lab reports had all of this information right?

The Court report (Docket Number: 2040/2557; Red Case Number: 2558) says:

STR vWA analysis: DNA from rectum of Hannah Witheridge

• 16 matching loci to Zaw Lin (Zoren) & 16 matching loci to Wai Phyo (Win)

STR vWA analysis: DNA from vagina of Hannah Witheridge

• 16 matching loci to Wai Phyo (Win)

STR D2S1338 analysis: DNA from right nipple of Hannah Witheridge

• Positive match to Wai Phyo (Win), loci 20 & 25 missing

I don't have the answers to your other questions as I wasn't in Court, but I have read the Court report which states the above information.

The Court report has a lot of information (63 pages of it) that everyone should read.

I'm still waiting for the unofficial English translation, as I do not have the time or energy to translate the entire document myself.

Good post STE, and I hope you'll be able to post the translated court report one day.

It's unlikely that a translation of the full court report will have much more than curiosity value for the reason that Smedly keeps on outlining. The judge(s) clearly stated that the only compelling evidence is the DNA evidence, which they consider to be sound. But the DNA evidence has been categorically proven to be very unsound so far. Unless the prosecuters can come up with much, much better DNA evidence, what is good enough for the Thai judiciary will continue to be derided by experts and journalists everywhere.

So you haven't seen the court report yet, but you're claiming already that it will contain nothing of value. Says it all actually.

[MorristheRunt]

Nomsod at various times with long hair.

Nomsod with his lawyer and new haircut.

Nomsod with his new buddies...

One thing I don't get: What on earth was Somyot grinning at? What was he even doing there? Wasn't this a private test set up by Nomsod's dad?

The picture with Somyot is absolutely freighting and sends a shiver down my spine.

Something is very wrong there and I believe consequences will materialize.

[AleG]

So you think that is OK to do unethical things to harm people because you think that some other people did something unethical?

Wow... just wow.

You seem to think its fine to torture poor people into confessing to heinous crimes so that tourists aren't scared to come and spend money on Koh Tao (I would think because you have business interests there)

I think its perfectly fine to destablise the businesses and lives of people who believe that torture is acceptable in order to get the truth.

If causing every single bar and dive school on Koh Tao to have to close down to make someone bleat and tell the truth (because someone on that goddamn island knows something), then so be it... I hope everyone there goes bankrupt and would happily see every business go under...

The only difference between you and I is that I don't like the idea of seeing innocent people get put to death for the sake of my bank balance

I don't think it's fine to torture people, and my bank balance has nothing to do with anything.

You just make assumptions of guilt and then feel justified to punish the innocent and the assumed guilty alike; that has nothing to do with justice, not even retribution, it's just an expression of hatred.

[DiscoDan]

"The parents of a British holiday maker who died in suspicious circumstances in Thailand are convinced he was murdered – and the killing covered up to protect tourism.”

“Despite being warned to keep quiet by people on the island, the family have refused to be silenced.”

“She added: “The Police didn’t look at his room or the area where he was found. There was no attempt to investigate.”

"They spent most of their time laughing and joking as we asked questions.”

“Tracy said her son Matt was warned there are “powerful people on the island”, and that the family should leave rather than stirring up trouble.”

“They also heard other holiday makers had died on the island and their bodies “thrown into the water in the hope they’d be washed away”.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/thailand-beach-death-parents-convinced-4410135

“They also heard other holiday makers had died on the island and their bodies “thrown into the water in the hope they’d be washed away”

So doesn't sound like a mafia killing then ?the 2 bodies were left on the beach.

This crime scene looks like it was someone very sick in the head and no knowledge of dna but knowledge of fingerprint evidence hence why none on hoe handle and Davids mobile.

Would someone care to post a link of dna being used in a court case in Burma?

One body was dragged into the sea.

Maybe the Mafia killed David and the B2 Killed Hannah then ?

[AleG]

The Court report (Docket Number: 2040/2557; Red Case Number: 2558) says:

STR vWA analysis: DNA from rectum of Hannah Witheridge

• 16 matching loci to Zaw Lin (Zoren) & 16 matching loci to Wai Phyo (Win)

STR vWA analysis: DNA from vagina of Hannah Witheridge

• 16 matching loci to Wai Phyo (Win)

STR D2S1338 analysis: DNA from right nipple of Hannah Witheridge

• Positive match to Wai Phyo (Win), loci 20 & 25 missing

I don't have the answers to your other questions as I wasn't in Court, but I have read the Court report which states the above information.

The Court report has a lot of information (63 pages of it) that everyone should read.

I'm still waiting for the unofficial English translation, as I do not have the time or energy to translate the entire document myself.

Thanks for your contribution but it basically changes nothing from a DNA perspective unless they can produce the original samples and that they are independently verified otherwise it's just a lot of writing on a page

The DNA was independently tested by the Chiang Mai University, Prince of Songkla University and Chulalongkorn University laboratories.

I get the feeling you would not be satisfied until someone shows up at your door with a test tube labeled "DNA evidence".

[Khun Han]

I too find it strange that the DNA methods were not challenged by the defence.

Can someone remind me what the "methods" were?
was it PCR, STR or did they use AmpFLP? What method was used to create a distinction between Hannah's and the other DNA was it differential lysis or mtDNA?

How many runs were made on each sample?
How did the lab ensure there was no contamination?
Were each person's samples sent to separate labs? because clearly one labs wouldn't be expected to process all samples, without adequate time periods to remove the possibility of contamination?
Where are the results of the negative control runs - and the contamination logs?



And what about the Electropherograms (E-grams) - I mean the lab reports had all of this information right?

The Court report (Docket Number: 2040/2557; Red Case Number: 2558) says:


STR vWA analysis: DNA from rectum of Hannah Witheridge

• 16 matching loci to Zaw Lin (Zoren) & 16 matching loci to Wai Phyo (Win)

STR vWA analysis: DNA from vagina of Hannah Witheridge

• 16 matching loci to Wai Phyo (Win)

STR D2S1338 analysis: DNA from right nipple of Hannah Witheridge

• Positive match to Wai Phyo (Win), loci 20 & 25 missing

I don't have the answers to your other questions as I wasn't in Court, but I have read the Court report which states the above information.

The Court report has a lot of information (63 pages of it) that everyone should read.

I'm still waiting for the unofficial English translation, as I do not have the time or energy to translate the entire document myself.

Good post STE, and I hope you'll be able to post the translated court report one day.

It's unlikely that a translation of the full court report will have much more than curiosity value for the reason that Smedly keeps on outlining. The judge(s) clearly stated that the only compelling evidence is the DNA evidence, which they consider to be sound. But the DNA evidence has been categorically proven to be very unsound so far. Unless the prosecuters can come up with much, much better DNA evidence, what is good enough for the Thai judiciary will continue to be derided by experts and journalists everywhere.

So you haven't seen the court report yet, but you're claiming already that it will contain nothing of value. Says it all actually.

Doesn't say anything much. But feel free to be a faux drama queen.....darling.

[smedly]

Of course they want it swept under the carpet asap, so they can carry on 'living the dream' on that hellhole island.

God forbid it might affect their long running competition of who can sleep with the most fresh meat dive students.

although this particular crime turned out to be a murder there was a very interesting post on TVF some time ago making reference to Koh Tao and its less than savory past criminal activities especially those involving rape accusations made by young western girls holidaying on the Island, there have also been suspected murders, I can't find the post but it was made by someone that lived there for a decent length of time

This particular crime against Hannah could well have started as an intended rape that went bad because of the interference of David and culminated in a double murder.

Possibly Lots of young innocent western girls being prayed upon by local thugs who seem have the run of the place and an ego and attitude that they can get away with anything when the opportunity presents.

Most murder investigations have an almost identical approach by police investigators

1. Establish a motive (very important) - in this case it was claimed to be sexual in nature (UK coroner stated no evidence of rape)

2. Investigations almost always start from the location the victims were last known to be alive and from there look for a motive - the initial investigation more or less seemed to have started in this way but then suddenly stopped and went dark. A possible motive was the strongly rumoured altercation with one of the staff were Hannah was last seen alive

3. Establish the movements of the victims from item 2 above by interviewing witnesses and review cctv footage if available - not done - hidden or prevented, were they together ? did they leave together ? times ? who did they talk to ? who were they with ?

4. The rest is down to (SOCO) gathering evidence from the crime scene (we all know how that went) bringing it together to establish possible suspects based on the motive and linking them to the crime using the gathered evidence, in this particular crime it was primarily the DNA evidence they claimed to have but have yet never produced, also the injuries to David especially the small puncture wounds never properly explained.

5. Make a case for prosecution using all of the above and present to court

for me there are serious issues with every item listed above which is why I remain unconvinced

Yes, there are serious issues with every item, namely that you assume facts not in evidence, if not directly contested by the known facts.

1. The UK coroner (according to Andy Hall) said that she found no rape related injuries, which does not mean rape didn't occur.

2. You assume the police changed the direction of the investigation for... reasons, the rumor you are clinging to has never been substantiated by any credible source.

3. The prosecution spent one day (12 hours) going through CCTV footage tracing the movements of the victims.

4. The DNA evidence was presented in court, you are in absolute denial regarding that. As for the injuries, again, you assume they were not explained... did you even bother to read the preliminary verdict report?

5. That's what the prosecution did.

I suggest that you remain unconvinced because your assumptions don't match with the known facts. If you would inform yourself and stop rejecting facts that you don't like things would probably become less confusing.

you inserted the word injuries which is a deflection, no such word was mentioned, the dna has not been presented only a declaration that it matches B2, the rest of your post is your opinion exactly the same as mine

[Khun Han]

The Court report (Docket Number: 2040/2557; Red Case Number: 2558) says:

STR vWA analysis: DNA from rectum of Hannah Witheridge

• 16 matching loci to Zaw Lin (Zoren) & 16 matching loci to Wai Phyo (Win)

STR vWA analysis: DNA from vagina of Hannah Witheridge

• 16 matching loci to Wai Phyo (Win)

STR D2S1338 analysis: DNA from right nipple of Hannah Witheridge

• Positive match to Wai Phyo (Win), loci 20 & 25 missing

I don't have the answers to your other questions as I wasn't in Court, but I have read the Court report which states the above information.

The Court report has a lot of information (63 pages of it) that everyone should read.

I'm still waiting for the unofficial English translation, as I do not have the time or energy to translate the entire document myself.

Thanks for your contribution but it basically changes nothing from a DNA perspective unless they can produce the original samples and that they are independently verified otherwise it's just a lot of writing on a page

The DNA was independently tested by the Chiang Mai University, Prince of Songkla University and Chulalongkorn University laboratories.

I get the feeling you would not be satisfied until someone shows up at your door with a test tube labeled "DNA evidence".

What did they test, when did they test it and is there a full and complete documentation of chain of custody of the DNA from crime scene to court?

[SiSePuede419]

Two comments about the DNA tests...

1. Most forensic DNA laboratories perform negative controls, blank samples that will often detect contaminants in the laboratory. The blanks detect contaminants by showing partial or full DNA profiles representing the contaminants. Alternatively, the blank may show no profile, consistent with, but not proving that contamination didn't occur. Unfortunately, a few forensic DNA laboratories omit their controls.

Where are the blank sample tests to verify there was no cross-contamination of the DNA testing machine?

2. 16 matching loci?

You mean to tell me that in 2015 Thailand is more advanced than DNA forensic labs in America in 2008?

In America, they were only testing 13 loci:

http://freakonomics.com/2008/08/19/are-the-fbis-probabilities-about-dna-matches-crazy/