Deputy Thai PM: Reconciliation should be voluntary

[Throatwobbler]

Someone got a dictionary for Christmas.

Says a supporter of the Junta.I think you may need a dictionary, or at least open it.

[Plutojames88]

Great ....so I can get this printed on T shirt.?

No , ? ....didn't think so.....

The divisions are deeper and more pronounced than ever.

Thailand is like a volcano that is rumbling and smoking lightly but heating the ground

And tremors are being felt.

With every arrest , and every freedom taken.

It's maybe for now not a threat.

But it can explode anytime

Edited January 7, 2016 by Plutojames88

[candide]

EJ & BB24.

Of course this thread has turned into the usual mudslinging, leading nowhere................

Let us forget Thaksin and the generals for a moment, and ask ourselves, how do Thailand move forward from today.

As much as I want free elections, I must admit it will probably not solve Thailands long term problems. It will just lead to history repeating itself all over again.

So what about using the same model, as they used in Myanmar. In a transition 40 % of the parliaments seats are reserved for the army, the rest decided in free elections.

In the second 4 year term the reserved seats for the are reduced to 25% and in the third 4 year term, no seats are reserved for the army. But of course they can run for parliament, if they decide to form a political party.

So it will take 8 years to have totally free elections, but (unlike Myanmar) there probably will not be any group with their own majority, and that will force the various sides of the political

divide to work together. Hopefully bringing the country closer to reconciliation !

Your thoughts.............

Sounds like an OK plan - and I am sure there are others just as worthy of consideration. One of those (at the risk of firing up the mudslingers) is that the current Military Govt does what they say they will and they back away and leave a stable Democracy and Constitution in its place - one that hopefully lasts longer than 3-5 years (which is the average since 1940s).

But the point being made by EJ and myself (and others) is that the Military Govt does not deserve the constant sanctimonious criticism of particular Expats on this Forum - YET. Nor do the people of Thailand need, nor warrant (EVER), being personally criticised by those same pompous Expats for not 'matching on the barracks' and being so accepting of things being as they are. Most of that rhetoric and abuse comes from ignorance and bias - ignorance of what actually happenned and bias against a non-elected form of Govt - Democracy or anarchy is their creed. No one can change that hard-wired view on Democracy - but maybe if they read this website's summary they will understand a little more about the real world of Thailand. http://nautilus.org/apsnet/0634a-rowley-html/

Interesting essay. I doubt it provides grounds for supporting or not criticising the current regime but it is a well argumented and coherent thesis. As any thesis, it provides a particular "view" of reality. I would tend to think that this view is probably more complementary than opposite to other views.

[Plutojames88]

Reconciliation and reform were the reasons stated for the coup. Now the coup leader is saying reconciliation is voluntary and we are no nearer to any meaningful reform. So what the hell was the coup staged for?

To seize power and return misery and servitude to the people.

Eventually , they ( the people ) may decide"" it's better to die on your feet ....than to live on your knees""

Thailand is steaming towards civil war ....

This YS sentencing could explode the place .

[tbthailand]

EJ & BB24.

Of course this thread has turned into the usual mudslinging, leading nowhere................

Let us forget Thaksin and the generals for a moment, and ask ourselves, how do Thailand move forward from today.

As much as I want free elections, I must admit it will probably not solve Thailands long term problems. It will just lead to history repeating itself all over again.

So what about using the same model, as they used in Myanmar. In a transition 40 % of the parliaments seats are reserved for the army, the rest decided in free elections.

In the second 4 year term the reserved seats for the are reduced to 25% and in the third 4 year term, no seats are reserved for the army. But of course they can run for parliament, if they decide to form a political party.

So it will take 8 years to have totally free elections, but (unlike Myanmar) there probably will not be any group with their own majority, and that will force the various sides of the political

divide to work together. Hopefully bringing the country closer to reconciliation !

Your thoughts.............

Sounds like an OK plan - and I am sure there are others just as worthy of consideration. One of those (at the risk of firing up the mudslingers) is that the current Military Govt does what they say they will and they back away and leave a stable Democracy and Constitution in its place - one that hopefully lasts longer than 3-5 years (which is the average since 1940s).

But the point being made by EJ and myself (and others) is that the Military Govt does not deserve the constant sanctimonious criticism of particular Expats on this Forum - YET. Nor do the people of Thailand need, nor warrant (EVER), being personally criticised by those same pompous Expats for not 'matching on the barracks' and being so accepting of things being as they are. Most of that rhetoric and abuse comes from ignorance and bias - ignorance of what actually happenned and bias against a non-elected form of Govt - Democracy or anarchy is their creed. No one can change that hard-wired view on Democracy - but maybe if they read this website's summary they will understand a little more about the real world of Thailand. http://nautilus.org/apsnet/0634a-rowley-html/

your link just recounts Thaksin's history and the fact that he was both power hungry and corrupt. So what? It's the reason I personally dislike Thaksin so much. Of course the folks here on this forum who call for democracy in Thailand know that corruption did not start with Thaksin and we all know that corruption is not limited to businessmen and politicians...

On this point, however, ...

But the point being made by EJ and myself (and others) is that the Military Govt does not deserve the constant sanctimonious criticism of particular Expats on this Forum - YET.

I respectfully disagree. The military in Thailand, even before it became "the government" has long deserved criticism for meddling in thai politics. For decades and decades... What many of us here recognize, and what you apparently disagree with, is that the military is the problem, not the answer.

edit: regarding Thaksin, if you have read up on the red shirts, then you know that many red shirts are critical of him and his political strategies - then and now.

Edited January 7, 2016 by tbthailand

[sawadee1947]

as far as I see PM will do it by force..?

[BB24]

If the current Military Government doesn't hand back power in a reasonable period as promised - then they deserve (and will get) lots of criticism from the pragmatic people and Govts of the world. The rest of the world is being pragmatic and reasonable - they are giving them the opportunity to get it right and hand it back to the people. I happen to agree with that view, and I do not carry any baggage about what form of Govt is right and wrong for the people of Thailand at this time - and it is their country not mine and I dont have the right to be sanctimonious about it.

Was the solution to allow things to play out and see what happened when a corrupt government refused to back down and was hell bent on staying the course they had planned. Maybe - but that didn't happen and I am glad it didn't - IMO things would have been a lot worse than a few freedoms being put on hold. Remember - Thaksin went and saw the King and resigned the next day - there was a reason for that. And the miltary stepped in some time later and took over - there was a good reason for that too (IMO).

[Eric Loh]

If the current Military Government doesn't hand back power in a reasonable period as promised - then they deserve (and will get) lots of criticism from the pragmatic people and Govts of the world. The rest of the world is being pragmatic and reasonable - they are giving them the opportunity to get it right and hand it back to the people. I happen to agree with that view, and I do not carry any baggage about what form of Govt is right and wrong for the people of Thailand at this time - and it is their country not mine and I dont have the right to be sanctimonious about it.

Was the solution to allow things to play out and see what happened when a corrupt government refused to back down and was hell bent on staying the course they had planned. Maybe - but that didn't happen and I am glad it didn't - IMO things would have been a lot worse than a few freedoms being put on hold. Remember - Thaksin went and saw the King and resigned the next day - there was a reason for that. And the miltary stepped in some time later and took over - there was a good reason for that too (IMO).

Corruption was never the reason for the coup. Thailand history has many documented corruption cases of past governments. No coup was staged. Even the big Sor Por Kor land reform corruption during Dem government or the bloodshed in 2010 and a dysfunctional government. No coup. Expand your mind. There are reasons far beyond corruption..

[mikebell]

Reconciliation should be voluntary - or else.

[MZurf]

EJ & BB24.

Of course this thread has turned into the usual mudslinging, leading nowhere................

Let us forget Thaksin and the generals for a moment, and ask ourselves, how do Thailand move forward from today.

As much as I want free elections, I must admit it will probably not solve Thailands long term problems. It will just lead to history repeating itself all over again.

So what about using the same model, as they used in Myanmar. In a transition 40 % of the parliaments seats are reserved for the army, the rest decided in free elections.

In the second 4 year term the reserved seats for the are reduced to 25% and in the third 4 year term, no seats are reserved for the army. But of course they can run for parliament, if they decide to form a political party.

So it will take 8 years to have totally free elections, but (unlike Myanmar) there probably will not be any group with their own majority, and that will force the various sides of the political

divide to work together. Hopefully bringing the country closer to reconciliation !

Your thoughts.............

Sounds like an OK plan - and I am sure there are others just as worthy of consideration. One of those (at the risk of firing up the mudslingers) is that the current Military Govt does what they say they will and they back away and leave a stable Democracy and Constitution in its place - one that hopefully lasts longer than 3-5 years (which is the average since 1940s).

But the point being made by EJ and myself (and others) is that the Military Govt does not deserve the constant sanctimonious criticism of particular Expats on this Forum - YET. Nor do the people of Thailand need, nor warrant (EVER), being personally criticised by those same pompous Expats for not 'matching on the barracks' and being so accepting of things being as they are. Most of that rhetoric and abuse comes from ignorance and bias - ignorance of what actually happenned and bias against a non-elected form of Govt - Democracy or anarchy is their creed. No one can change that hard-wired view on Democracy - but maybe if they read this website's summary they will understand a little more about the real world of Thailand. http://nautilus.org/apsnet/0634a-rowley-html/

"But the point being made by EJ and myself (and others) is that the Military Govt does not deserve the constant sanctimonious criticism of particular Expats on this Forum - YET."

Yes, they do. And what you and your small and confused group of junta lovers fail spectacularly to state is exactly what makes you believe the present junta will change anything for the better after all the coups the last decades that did not change anything.

Is it Uncle Too you have such faith in? The rest of the junta? Tell us, what is different this time???

To me you're a bunch of hypocrites, always harping on about Thaksin this and Thaksin that and use that as an excuse for the Orwellian actions of the junta. Case in point; Your friend EJ talking about the failed PTP amnesty bid ad nauseam while conveniently forgetting the junta giving themselves the mother of all amnesties.

Hypocrisy of epic proportions!

[BB24]

Nothing but rhetoric and insults? Is that all you got?? I understand .................

[Plutojames88]

As Thais often remind us , it matters little what we think.

So they believe.

But rather more what they do.

And that's the point .

They are forced not to think.

At least differ in "" correct"" thought.

Which the military issues.

That's not a state that should be condoned.

Insults should fly if someone is suggesting mass human rights abuses are justified.?

But do we matter?

Yes.

Our governments notice news.

Bodies that investigate.

Diplomats that observe.

Eventually in a computer age.

Truth will prevail.

But removing the Internet .

Might be their next ploy.

We need to stop the "" trouble makers""

For people here that think the introverted military have sunk as far as it can go.

Think again.......( maybe even out lawing photos like this?)

Liverpool legends beat Australian legends 4--0 in Sydney last night .

Gerald and his men had lots of fun and the people decked out in Red shirts loved every second

Edited January 8, 2016 by Plutojames88

[BB24]

Nice photo - you were there??

[billd766]

Reconciliation starts and stops with the PM.

There is zero evidence it has started yet!

In truth reconciliation starts with the ordinary people of Thailand getting along with each other at a local level. As it filters up through the area and regional levels the politicians of all sides and factors get involved and that is where the problem is.

There are 3 major parties involved in Thailand. Any Thaksin party, any Democrat party what ever the parties wish to call themselves and the military.

All of these parties shout at each other, they talk past each other, none of them listen to themselves let alone somebody else, and each one of them claims that they are the chosen ones.

IMHO until they all come back from the planet they are on now to real Thailand, sit around the same table, talk and listen to each other there will never be reconciliation in Thailand.

[BB24]

Reconciliation starts and stops with the PM.

There is zero evidence it has started yet!

In truth reconciliation starts with the ordinary people of Thailand getting along with each other at a local level. As it filters up through the area and regional levels the politicians of all sides and factors get involved and that is where the problem is.

There are 3 major parties involved in Thailand. Any Thaksin party, any Democrat party what ever the parties wish to call themselves and the military.

All of these parties shout at each other, they talk past each other, none of them listen to themselves let alone somebody else, and each one of them claims that they are the chosen ones.

IMHO until they all come back from the planet they are on now to real Thailand, sit around the same table, talk and listen to each other there will never be reconciliation in Thailand.

Agree 100%. IMO if the miltary govt can set the date for the meeting, organise the location and table, and set the rules for the discussions - then they will have done their job. If they take too long and procrastinate too much, or if they refuse to leave the table, THEN I will also be one of those expressing my concerns and wanting them to leave power.

But will the Thaksin and other clans ever fully accept the other being in power? Or will the clan in power see it as their 'turn' to take advantage - like all the others before them have done? Or will they finally realise that in ALL good democracies (for People and Country) there are two main Parties who tend to be in and then out of power - and they both accept that (if reluctantly).

Time will tell on all those and other factors. Right now - people are not killing each other over politics, and I see more and more of the ingrained corruption being addressed (like those island resorts being shut down, and illegal shops/buildings being removed, etc etc). Plus - there is an 'event' coming in Thailand that will be HUGE - and the impacts will be far reaching and long lasting - and IMO the outcomes could go either way (good and bad). On 5th December this year, the King of Thailand will be 89 years old. What the King has done for this country is absolutely fantastic and he and his family is genuinely loved by the people - and rightly so. When that 'event' happens, I want a strong and stable government in power - and anyone who thinks that 'event' occuring would be Ok with an unstable government in power and the people fighting each other - is an ignorant fool. Timing is everything and a smooth transition will be the key - history shows some democracies have failed and the people have suffered when very serious circumstances/events occur - for others it has been the turning point towards a modern prosperous democracy. I am confident the latter is what will occur in Thailand.

[candide]

Reconciliation starts and stops with the PM.

There is zero evidence it has started yet!

In truth reconciliation starts with the ordinary people of Thailand getting along with each other at a local level. As it filters up through the area and regional levels the politicians of all sides and factors get involved and that is where the problem is.

There are 3 major parties involved in Thailand. Any Thaksin party, any Democrat party what ever the parties wish to call themselves and the military.

All of these parties shout at each other, they talk past each other, none of them listen to themselves let alone somebody else, and each one of them claims that they are the chosen ones.

IMHO until they all come back from the planet they are on now to real Thailand, sit around the same table, talk and listen to each other there will never be reconciliation in Thailand.

Again you try to sell the fiction of a "neutral army" which would be not related to one of the two main political factions in Thailand. The dems, PDRC, and the army are on the same side. They may compete for power positions inside this faction and may not agree on all issues, but they belong to the same network.

[billd766]

Reconciliation starts and stops with the PM.

There is zero evidence it has started yet!

In truth reconciliation starts with the ordinary people of Thailand getting along with each other at a local level. As it filters up through the area and regional levels the politicians of all sides and factors get involved and that is where the problem is.

There are 3 major parties involved in Thailand. Any Thaksin party, any Democrat party what ever the parties wish to call themselves and the military.

All of these parties shout at each other, they talk past each other, none of them listen to themselves let alone somebody else, and each one of them claims that they are the chosen ones.

IMHO until they all come back from the planet they are on now to real Thailand, sit around the same table, talk and listen to each other there will never be reconciliation in Thailand.

Again you try to sell the fiction of a "neutral army" which would be not related to one of the two main political factions in Thailand. The dems, PDRC, and the army are on the same side. They may compete for power positions inside this faction and may not agree on all issues, but they belong to the same network.

When will you ever understand that I am not trying to "sell" anything to anybody.

It is my personal opinion. If you don't like it I really don't care but try to come up with some ideas of your own for a change.

All you do is regurgitate the same old story and then you wonder why there will never be reconciliation in Thailand.

It doesn't matter what you or i or any other poster on TVF thinks or says. We don't exist to the Thai politicos.

If you have a problem with my posts then put me on your ignore list. I won't cry nor throw my toys out of the pram.

BUT I have exactly the same rights as you to post what I think and feel on this forum provided that I stay within the rules.

If you don't like it, then skip my posts.

[Plutojames88]

No one ""really "" disputes that the army are on the yellow elites side.

The general said two days ago as much .

Telling democrats to come out and vote.

Playing politics here is fine.

There are several groups.

But even the pathological Thaksin haters doubt think the army are neutral .

If they were those protesters outside the American Embassy would have been arrested

Edited January 8, 2016 by Plutojames88

[tbthailand]

Nothing but rhetoric and insults? Is that all you got?? I understand .................

from some of your posts, it seems that you have read more of Thai history than just Thaksin's time ... and in that case, it is odd that you talk about the military handing back power in a reasonable time to the Thai people. Surely you realize that the only time that ever happened voluntarily was in 2007 and then only after they had rigged a new constitution and forced it through a rigged referendum. Every other time it was one of Thailand's bloody points in history, '73, '76, '92, ...

And you should also be able to recognize that this junta is (1) not satisfied with their own 2007 constitution and are crafting a much less democratic and more easily manipulated constitution this time, and (2) that they do not seem to be in a hurry to go anywhere, much less "hand back power in a timely fashion"... (can't imagine why? ... )

with that in mind, I don't see your perspective on what is currently happening in Thailand to be particularly realistic...

[tbthailand]

Reconciliation starts and stops with the PM.

There is zero evidence it has started yet!

In truth reconciliation starts with the ordinary people of Thailand getting along with each other at a local level. As it filters up through the area and regional levels the politicians of all sides and factors get involved and that is where the problem is.

There are 3 major parties involved in Thailand. Any Thaksin party, any Democrat party what ever the parties wish to call themselves and the military.

All of these parties shout at each other, they talk past each other, none of them listen to themselves let alone somebody else, and each one of them claims that they are the chosen ones.

IMHO until they all come back from the planet they are on now to real Thailand, sit around the same table, talk and listen to each other there will never be reconciliation in Thailand.

the point is that in a normal democracy, the military has no place at the table...

[mrrizzla]

I scratch my head when I read people saying this government are cleaning up corruption.

The microphone scandal, the Koh Tao debacle, that park down in Hua Hin.

It's like their hate for the bogey man in Dubai blinds them from being impartial.

[MZurf]

Nothing but rhetoric and insults? Is that all you got?? I understand .................

You misunderstand. My question was not rhetorical - I would really like to get an answer to the following:

"And what you and your small and confused group of junta lovers fail spectacularly to state is exactly what makes you believe the present junta will change anything for the better after all the coups the last decades that did not change anything.

Is it Uncle Too you have such faith in? The rest of the junta? Tell us, what is different this time???"

No answer? Didn't think so...

Oh, and I'll take being an 18 year old liberal over an 80 year old dinosaur every time.

[MZurf]

Nice photo - you were there??

When a junta lover accuses someone of being a liberal (as if that was a negative thing) I know exactly what kind of person I'm dealing with.

[BB24]

How predictable:

[billd766]

Reconciliation starts and stops with the PM.

There is zero evidence it has started yet!

In truth reconciliation starts with the ordinary people of Thailand getting along with each other at a local level. As it filters up through the area and regional levels the politicians of all sides and factors get involved and that is where the problem is.

There are 3 major parties involved in Thailand. Any Thaksin party, any Democrat party what ever the parties wish to call themselves and the military.

All of these parties shout at each other, they talk past each other, none of them listen to themselves let alone somebody else, and each one of them claims that they are the chosen ones.

IMHO until they all come back from the planet they are on now to real Thailand, sit around the same table, talk and listen to each other there will never be reconciliation in Thailand.

the point is that in a normal democracy, the military has no place at the table...

I am trying to remember what a normal democracy is anywhere in the world.

[Squeegee]

You misunderstand. My question was not rhetorical - I would really like to get an answer to the following:

"And what you and your small and confused group of junta lovers fail spectacularly to state is exactly what makes you believe the present junta will change anything for the better after all the coups the last decades that did not change anything.

Is it Uncle Too you have such faith in? The rest of the junta? Tell us, what is different this time???"

No answer? Didn't think so...

Oh, and I'll take being an 18 year old liberal over an 80 year old dinosaur every time.

I'd like just one of them to be capable of a proper answer instead of posting pictures with childish second hand slogans and thinking they have any amount of wit.

Let's try again, with mrrizzla's points....

If the junta are cleaning up corruption, justify their behaviour with regards to:

* The microphone scandal

* The Koh Tao debacle

* The park in Hua Hin

Junta good; Thaksin bad = an unsound, overly simplistic position.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Squeegee

[dageurreotype]

what is reconciliation? they want the Thaksin family to stand down from politics so they can have elections again?

Well, for starters, yeah!

[dageurreotype]

Nice photo - you were there??

When a junta lover accuses someone of being a liberal (as if that was a negative thing) I know exactly what kind of person I'm dealing with.

From what I've seen, anyone being called ('accuses' rather telling?) a liberal by anyone of the American persuasion tells me what kind of people we're dealing with.

[BB24]

The Dinosaur in me has more to 'say'

[MZurf]

The Dinosaur in me has more to 'say'

I'l try again, but assume I only get another childish photo as a "reply" (and that's why I've added one of my own):

"And what you and your small and confused group of junta lovers fail spectacularly to state is exactly what makes you believe the present junta will change anything for the better after all the coups the last decades that did not change anything.

Is it Uncle Too you have such faith in? The rest of the junta? Tell us, what is different this time???"

EJ, you're more than welcome to answer this question, mate!