Los Ranked Number 3 For Murders

[rocky]

Hi Nostrel, a great report. Thank you for taking the time. I have found that most men living in the Pattaya area will not take kind to any information regarding that it might be dangerous to involve ones life with a bar girl.

Guest house I believe surveys are very important, they have a little more strength of fact than an opinion of a local. Now we now that Thailand is the third most dangerous country when it comes to Gun fatalities.

Britmavric, no doubt there are more dangerous countries on earth. But what about tourist countries opening arms wide welcoming foreigners. Which tourist based country is more dangerous?

It has always amazed me the amount of attacks in Pattaya, for instance western couples being attacked by Lady boys on second road at 10pm evening. Or western men being attacked on beach road, any time of the day or night.

Then there are the deaths and plenty of them. Strange suicides with obvious reaons but hardly ever investigated by the local police. For some reason it seams to me that people who live here think the crime rate isn’t too different from their home town as they haven’t been killed as yet.

You really don’t have to go out of your way to find trouble here. Let me give you a guild line to visit St Peter before your time

1) Ensure that your uneducated bar girl is aware of the your wealth and how to get her hands on it.

2) Move into a condo

3) Wait your turn

[Tolley]

Good informative article by the OP.

Many typical comments from expats living in denial in LOS.

Thailand is a violent place and small incidents can spiral out of control very quickly.

Random attacks are not as uncommon as some would have you believe and if you go and have a look at a few of the news articles you can see that there seems to be an inceasing number of such incidents against foreigners.

Posters often state that LOS is a lot safer than some of the dodgy areas of the US. The fact is the majority of US citizens don't live in the dodge areas but live in the suburbs with have much lower crime rates than Thailand. The suburbs of Australia certainly are infintely safer than Thailand so there is no real comaprison to be had there.

The other argument that posters use here that is nothing has happened to me so therefore it is safe. This is also patently misleading. Yes nothing has happened to you but it has happened to many other people you are just lucky that you weren't one of them. I have never had a car accident in Thailand yet Thailand has a shocking road toll. Does that mean because I haven't had a road accident that the roads aren't dangerous?

Finally talk to Thais who really know what is going on and most of them will tell you to be careful in Thailand because it can be a dangerous place.

Edited October 18, 2006 by Tolley

[Casanundra]

I am sorry to have to add this in to the thread but some foreign guys here really do deserve to be slotted. Unfortunately one in particular who I know that causes the most trouble seems to be getting a way with it scot free and it astounds me that he continues to do so.

He does his level best on a daily basis to shaft a Thai and almost everyday drags some poor taxi driver down to the cop shop claiming they tried to rip him off just so he can get out of paying the taxi fare.

He also refuses to pay bar bills whenever he can stating that he never drank what they are charging him for (despite the table showing evidence to the contary in the form of the exact amount of bottles to confirm the bill being presented) and he generally causes disruption and figts between guys and their girlfriends wherever he goes.

Another trick he enjoys to do is to get a lot of foreigners sacked from their job by spreading malicious rumours around and to discreetly leaving misinformation around the place to vindicate people with and because he sucks up to the Thai administration, they tend to believe him over the others and such plays the game very well indeed.

How this guy (who claims to have been here 6 years) has not found himself head first in the klong with a heavy ball and chain around his neck is beyond me it really is... but the last I heard was that the latest trick of getting 3 foreigners collectively sacked may have been one step too far and his come uppance may not be too far away.

[rocky]

I am sorry to have to add this in to the thread but some foreign guys here really do deserve to be slotted. Unfortunately one in particular who I know that causes the most trouble seems to be getting a way with it scot free and it astounds me that he continues to do so.

He does his level best on a daily basis to shaft a Thai and almost everyday drags some poor taxi driver down to the cop shop claiming they tried to rip him off just so he can get out of paying the taxi fare.

He also refuses to pay bar bills whenever he can stating that he never drank what they are charging him for (despite the table showing evidence to the contary in the form of the exact amount of bottles to confirm the bill being presented) and he generally causes disruption and figts between guys and their girlfriends wherever he goes.

Another trick he enjoys to do is to get a lot of foreigners sacked from their job by spreading malicious rumours around and to discreetly leaving misinformation around the place to vindicate people with and because he sucks up to the Thai administration, they tend to believe him over the others and such plays the game very well indeed.

How this guy (who claims to have been here 6 years) has not found himself head first in the klong with a heavy ball and chain around his neck is beyond me it really is... but the last I heard was that the latest trick of getting 3 foreigners collectively sacked may have been one step too far and his come uppance may not be too far away.

I knew a guy from Europe that sounded just like this guy. I always kept a good distance from him, anyway he was found dead a few years back, no doubt this guy will be added to the list in no time.

[Tolley]

I am sorry to have to add this in to the thread but some foreign guys here really do deserve to be slotted. Unfortunately one in particular who I know that causes the most trouble seems to be getting a way with it scot free and it astounds me that he continues to do so.

He does his level best on a daily basis to shaft a Thai and almost everyday drags some poor taxi driver down to the cop shop claiming they tried to rip him off just so he can get out of paying the taxi fare.

He also refuses to pay bar bills whenever he can stating that he never drank what they are charging him for (despite the table showing evidence to the contary in the form of the exact amount of bottles to confirm the bill being presented) and he generally causes disruption and figts between guys and their girlfriends wherever he goes.

Another trick he enjoys to do is to get a lot of foreigners sacked from their job by spreading malicious rumours around and to discreetly leaving misinformation around the place to vindicate people with and because he sucks up to the Thai administration, they tend to believe him over the others and such plays the game very well indeed.

How this guy (who claims to have been here 6 years) has not found himself head first in the klong with a heavy ball and chain around his neck is beyond me it really is... but the last I heard was that the latest trick of getting 3 foreigners collectively sacked may have been one step too far and his come uppance may not be too far away.

Interesting that you feel like the guy should be "slotted". Maybe you have been in Thailand too long. Certainly if he has broken the law he should be punished but actually recommending that he be killed is a tad extreme .

[GuestHouse]

I love the argument, 'It's safer here in LOS than in many places in the US (add other country of your choice)'

That is a demonstration of the problem - Yes there are areas of Washington you would be crazy to go wandering around during the night - but if you're from Washington you'd know that.

Where ever you are from you are adept at picking up the danger signals in that society.

In Thailand you are far less likely to be able to even see the danger signals (Hence my suggestion that you ask your wife/ girlfriend about how safe Thailand is).

Then back to this 'Danger areas'.

A significant problem in Thailand is that violence is prevelent across all areas of society. It's not just in the down town wrong side of the tracks area.

Finally, there is the ever present risk of trouble coming looking for you.

And here again, when we read of a case where a Farang has been murdered by a Thai after some argument, we have the comments 'Dumb sh1t.. what was he doing causing a problem?...... You'd never catch me doing something so stupid".

But is that true, how many here can honestly say they have not even accidentally upset a Thai.

People get killed in Thailand for really stupid reasons.

Yes the same can be said of the US or anywhere in Farangland, but in Farangland it tends to be low life's killing each other.

In Thailand it could be anyone, and is very often respectable middleclass people who just flip and kill.

Don't go saying it would never happen to you... it might very well happen, over the most stupid thing.

[Tolley]

I love the argument, 'It's safer here in LOS than in many places in the US (add other country of your choice)'

That is a demonstration of the problem - Yes there are areas of Washington you would be crazy to go wandering around during the night - but if you're from Washington you'd know that.

Where ever you are from you are adept at picking up the danger signals in that society.

In Thailand you are far less likely to be able to even see the danger signals (Hence my suggestion that you ask your wife/ girlfriend about how safe Thailand is).

Then back to this 'Danger areas'.

A significant problem in Thailand is that violence is prevelent across all areas of society. It's not just in the down town wrong side of the tracks area.

Finally, there is the ever present risk of trouble coming looking for you.

And here again, when we read of a case where a Farang has been murdered by a Thai after some argument, we have the comments 'Dumb sh1t.. what was he doing causing a problem?...... You'd never catch me doing something so stupid".

But is that true, how many here can honestly say they have not even accidentally upset a Thai.

People get killed in Thailand for really stupid reasons.

Yes the same can be said of the US or anywhere in Farangland, but in Farangland it tends to be low life's killing each other.

In Thailand it could be anyone, and is very often respectable middleclass people who just flip and kill.

Don't go saying it would never happen to you... it might very well happen, over the most stupid thing.

Agree 100 %. Too many posters here are living in complete denial.

[Galong]

Waste of bandwidth.

A paragraph was enough to make the point.

Yes, I agree... all that reading made me want to go out and kill someone!

[kmart]

I've had a couple of near-misses with drunken locals; who can be a bigoted racist lot on occasions.

Bear in mind the Thais usually turn up armed and mob-handed to settle a dispute or perceived insult, and the figures arn't so startling maybe...

Learning to speak the language fluently opens your ears and eyes to whole new set of insults; racial slurs; bigotry and wilfull ignorance, as well as the good parts!

I wouldn't like to live in most tourist areas of Thailand. They attract a lot of the scum of both cultures; out for easy pickings and looking for gullible / naive people.

[qualtrough]

Sorry, but it is not a state of denial that leads me to feel that Thailand is as safe or safer for the average farang than, say, the US. I don't need to ask my girlfriend or wife about that because I speak and read the language and talk to Thais every day. It always helps to gather your impressions unfiltered by another party. Perhaps that is part of the problem here?

A very large portion of the figures for gun violence are due to the settling of disputes that in other countries would be settled by in small claims courts and the like. Another great share are domestic disputes, family members killing family members. And so on. Most farangs will never get mixed up in those kinds of disputes/events, especially if they somehow manage to avoid marrying someone with a background in the hospitality industry.

With the possible exception of Pataya, which is about as Thai as Torremolinos is Spain, your chances of getting mugged or in a fracas here are vanishingly small. I am shocked, truly shocked, at the sheer number of big girl's blouses on this forum. I imagine that the only place they dare express themselves is on the forum (pretty safe, no?), which would account for the fact that I have never in the long time I have spent here met such scaredy cats in person. Please, do us all a favor and either go home, or stay home!

One more thing. Thailand has had a high murder rate for a long, long time. When I first arrived in 1980 the papers were chock full of murder stories, just like today. If you people are concerned about this it tells me that you were not paying attention when you moved here, and are only suddenly discovering this fact. Sorry that your bubble was burst, but please stop telling everyone that the sky is falling.

P.S. Survived my visits to Lat Prao and Yawaraj, praise the Lord. I just don't know how much longer I can go on dodging these bullets!

Edited October 18, 2006 by qualtrough

[PeaceBlondie]

Well, it depends where you go. I avoid drunks and drinking places. I avoid dark alleys, strange run-down neighborhoods, people who only speak Thai, and farang whom I don't like.

Peaceblondie-Why do you avoid people who only speak Thai? As a general rule I prefer Thais who speak only Thai. When you deal with a Thai who speaks English well they have often absorbed a lot more of the foreign culture than the language, which often is not a good thing IMHO. Different strokes for different folks.

Because I can't communicate in Thai. That's my fault.

As GuestHouse points out, sometimes the violence here is so random that communication would have nothing to do with it. Anyway, when dealing only with people with whom we can have virtually no understanding or communication - why would we be interacting?

[GuestHouse]

It always helps to gather your impressions unfiltered by another party. Perhaps that is part of the problem here?

As a Thai speaker myself I speak to Thais almost exclusively in their own language, so I don't think 'filtering is a problem'.

And since when did Pattaya stop being Thailand? It is a part of Thailand that has a very high percentage of foreigners, but that does not make it any-the-less Thai.

Unless of course you are suggesting we look at violence against foreigners in parts of Thailand where there are .... erm.... no foreigners.

Nor does one become a 'big girl's' blouse for considering personal safety.

I imagine that the only place they dare express themselves is on the forum (pretty safe, no?), which would account for the fact that I have never in the long time I have spent here met such scaredy cats in person. Please, do us all a favor and either go home, or stay home!

I might be missing something here but I was under the impression that one of the primary purposes of this forum is to discuss things (and hence express opinions).... That aside, it seems you have now become the arbiter of what is allowed to be discussed here, your punishment for breaking your rules being to tell anyone who disagrees with you to "go home or stay home".

I'll obey the 'Real Forum Rules' and not tell you exactly what I think of that.

Edited October 18, 2006 by GuestHouse

[Thaddeus]

And since when did Pattaya stop being Thailand?

Circa 1950 (Gregorian)

As pointed out by this.....

With the possible exception of Pataya, which is about as Thai as Torremolinos is Spain

And Blackpool isn't England.

Did I ever feel 'safe' in Blackpool? ....... no.

Have I ever felt truly safe in Pattaya? ....... no.

Do I feel safe now? ..... yes, I managed to get home through the armed gangs on the roadside, by hanging out of the car window with a machete ..... Pattaya is not Thailand, hasn't been for some time.

[britmaveric]

Have I ever felt truly safe in Pattaya? .......

Always feel safe and its as thai as any place in thailand.

[qualtrough]

Have I ever felt truly safe in Pattaya? .......

Always feel safe and its as thai as any place in thailand.

Located in Thailand? Yes indeed. A representative slice of Thailand? No way.

[bulmercke]

On the same day as my conversation with Drummond, Gary Jones, an imprisoned Brit in Bang Kwang jail (Bangkok Hilton), had written to me about the police officer who horrifically shot a tourist couple dead in Kanchanaburi last year. "Pol. Sgt. Somchai Wisetsingh, murderer of Adam Lloyd and Vanessa Arscott," he wrote, "openly brags to the inmates, 'If I had had any sense, I would have emptied some sugar into the slut's handbag'". Somchai is now doing time in the notorious jail. You might hope this lovely decantation of his only regret the night of the murders does not reflect the police's stringent hiring policy.

Somchai Wisetsingh - SCUM -

[Jessy]

Interesting and informative. Alot of truth in it. There are indeed a lot of murders many of which are gruesome and would make headline news in other places. Even in a small town like Pattaya there are some horrific murders every week. Having said that, let us not forget that Thailand is compensated and even exceeded by other virtues. Indeed, it is quite safe in terms of anti-social behaviour - and the hooligan element that you get in every town in Europe on a Friday and Saturday night in the town centres doen't exist. So to many of us this is a wonderful respite. I thought the article put forward some interesting ideas about the Thai psychology as a result of the Thai solialisation. Some people seemed to think you were being negative, but I thought it was an informative article, but yes, many of us have heard it before and know about already. But I guess others haven't, and perhaps not in so much detail.

[GuestHouse]

^ well yes, but if you are going to extend the boundary of discussion, let's add house breaking into the equation.

Even all the high fences and jail bar windows fail to keep Thailand's house breaking down.

As for 'feeling safe' that goes right back to my argument about not recognizing risks.

[Thaddeus]

^ well yes, but if you are going to extend the boundary of discussion, let's add house breaking into the equation.

Ok ...... you start.

[qualtrough]

Does anyone posting on this thread have any statistical (not anecdotal) evidence that the per capita rate of violent crime in Thailand has increased appreciably over time? If so please post or link to it.

I have not seen any evidence that the rate per capita of violent crime in Thailand has appreciably changed at all since I first set eyes on this place 26 years ago. In fact, it could well be less. In the early 80s buses to Phuket and points south were regularly robbed and people killed. I had a friend who was on one such bus when a policeman was killed. Just like now, there was unrest in the South, and unlike today there were still remnants of communist insurgency in the N and NE. As I mentioned earlier, the papers were chock full of crime stories, just like today. Ocasionally a foreigner would turn up dead here and there, just like nowadays. A DJ at Cartier Club shot down in broad daylight on Asoke, an American AUA teacher shot dead by a student while waiting in line at a bank.... There are vastly more farangs here today, so it would be unusual if the number of foreign crime victims wasn't greater in real numbers as well.

I can think of three things that might create the perception of an increase in violent crime:

1. Better communications (Internet primarily) lets us know things that we would not have been exposed to in former times when the only news we got was from the paper or our small network of friends. Nowadays every serious crime involving a farang makes its way to this forum, and our circle of friends (through the forum) has increased exponentially.

2. A huge increase in the number of foreigners visiting, living, and working in Thailand and thus an increase in real numbers of foreign crime victims, but perhaps not the per capita rate.

3. Some forum members might have been ill-informed or un-informed about the high rate of violence in Thailand and are only just now awakening to that fact.

I am not in denial. What irks me is that the "Thailand/Thais is/are violent, we should all be afraid" theme keeps popping up from time to time. If someone can produce some statistical evidence over time you might yet convince me, but in the meantime I think that the scaredy cats are just waking up to something that has been around for a long time and are disappointed that the Land of Smiles they thought they lived in aint what they thought it was.

[nostrel]

news article published in Sereechai Weekly, November 30-December 6

issue, the following part of this lengthy article should serve

as useful information for any pleasure-seeking male tourist planning

to visit Pattaya:

"According to news reports, on November 24th, Mr. Marti Juharnee

Koshonen, 51 years old, a German national, was drugged in the

Center Hotel, Soi 12, Pattaya, and was robbed for about Baht 300,000

($13,500 approx.). Mr. Koshonen was hospitalized at the Injer

Hospital because of forced drug overdose. And, on the same day,

Mr. Mark Bregmen, 31 years old, was also drugged in the same hotel

and Mr. Maller Bodyguard, 34 years old, was drugged in Hotel I.A.

These last 2 men were overdosed with drugs that they suffered

a shock resulting in heart failures and death with saliva fuming

all over their mouths. These victims have added to the 45 deaths

since the beginning of this year and the majority of the dead men

were between 30-35 years of age.

****************

45 johns dead ,does that sound possible?

is there a publication the sereechai weekly ?

[Nikkijah]

I heard a story the other day...

There is a family in my area which has a rather tasty daughter

There is also a few houses in the street which have been transformed into silver workshops which hire boys from the south of Thailand to work there, these boys are generally about 14 years old and are uneducated

One of the boys took an active fancy in the tasty daughter but she was not interested

The boy then got together a group of around 20 other boys and a gun and went to kill the father of the tasty daughter for absolutely no reason whatsoever!! The father had been in the dark about the whole situation until the group of boys entered his home and tried to kill him! he dodged the bullets and fought them off

The police arrived and took all the boys away to the station

Later that night all of the boys were back in the workshop drilling and buffing the silver...

Apparently the owner of this particular workshop is friends with the police - he often takes them out for dinner and pays them their tea money to keep them away from his workshop, for whatever reason

Now the entire neighbourhood is scared and there is nothing they can do about this

How does this situation fit into the 'got into an argument with a Thai' or 'spoke to the wrong guys gf'??

My partner wants to contact a TV station to try to get this kind of situation noticed but would anything ever happen?

[sbk]

news article published in Sereechai Weekly, November 30-December 6

issue, the following part of this lengthy article should serve

as useful information for any pleasure-seeking male tourist planning

to visit Pattaya:

"According to news reports, on November 24th, Mr. Marti Juharnee

Koshonen, 51 years old, a German national, was drugged in the

Center Hotel, Soi 12, Pattaya, and was robbed for about Baht 300,000

($13,500 approx.). Mr. Koshonen was hospitalized at the Injer

Hospital because of forced drug overdose. And, on the same day,

Mr. Mark Bregmen, 31 years old, was also drugged in the same hotel

and Mr. Maller Bodyguard, 34 years old, was drugged in Hotel I.A.

These last 2 men were overdosed with drugs that they suffered

a shock resulting in heart failures and death with saliva fuming

all over their mouths. These victims have added to the 45 deaths

since the beginning of this year and the majority of the dead men

were between 30-35 years of age.

****************

45 johns dead ,does that sound possible?

is there a publication the sereechai weekly ?

I don't see where it says all 45 men were foreigners.

Also, be aware that Sereechai Weekly is a Thai language weekly published in the US.

[britmaveric]

My partner wants to contact a TV station to try to get this kind of situation noticed but would anything ever happen?

I doubt it infact might put you both in jeopardy.

[Nikkijah]

My partner wants to contact a TV station to try to get this kind of situation noticed but would anything ever happen?

I doubt it infact might put you both in jeopardy.

That's it britmaveric, the methods they use in the TV 'outings' are about as good as the gun and ciggy 'blurs'

[GuestHouse]

What the crime rate in Thailand 20 years ago has to do with this I don't know.

The assertion in the OPs post is that Thailand ranks 3rd in the world for murders, now, today.

[sua yai]

It's a bit of a crazy country though, isn't it?

The fact that most "transgressions" will not happen to a farang is not the point.

[sua yai]

And on that particular point, I "heard" that Thailand had the second highest murder rate for "political" reasons in the world. The first was Iraq. Think about it.

[cclub75]

Does anyone posting on this thread have any statistical (not anecdotal) evidence that the per capita rate of violent crime in Thailand has increased appreciably over time? If so please post or link to it.

Go back first page of the thread.

http://www.unodc.org/unodc/crime_cicp_survey_seventh.html

You'll find the rate for 100 000, from 1995 to 2000.

This study (based on police and/or justice declarations and numbers) is really amazing.

[cobra]

Statistics aside, most would probably agree they feel relatively safe here,