Salary Expectations

[davidjtayler]

Putting to one side the braindead bs response from one poster,it appears some may be genuinely flummoxed by my post, including serious people like Samran.All I can say is that most foreigners with a reasonable history of corporate experience in Thailand (and let's admit it that excludes 99% of Thai Visa members) would agree with most of what I say if not the rather colouful way I expressed it.It doesn't mean there aren't a great many excellent male Thai executives but there are far fewer than there should be.

Maybe if you had written this instead of or before you had written your ' rather colourful' original statement you wouldnt have received the responses that you did ... as it was, your original statement painted a grossly misleading and generalised picture of Thai males in the workplace which is not the norm.

I can see what you are trying to get across but the original statement did not convey that at all...

Anyway after reading your last post you can cancel the councelling ...

[Casanundra]

There is 'some' truth in what is being said here in this thread but let's not forget that someone should be emoployed to do a job based on their skills to do that job and shouldn't be restricted because of their gender, nationality, skin colour, height or whatever.

Here in Thailand the best people don't necessarily get the job (that goes for both foreigners and Thai's alike) and if the main point of the company is to employ someone to fill a slot at the cheapest price then so be it, you get what you pay for.

I personally have only ever worked in the blue chip corporate world both back home and in Thailand and there are pros and cons to both sides but I have to say that the huge difference I have found is one of productivity versus sanook!

Back home these days you are no more than a slave on a roman galleon working to the drum of the corporate beat of no job satisfaction, long hours and diminished loyalty both from employers and employees alike. You may earn a better salary but your social lifestyle is significantly diminished as a consequence and you only have to look at booze binge England to see how the folk are coping these days. Here in Thailand it's the other way around with more emphasis based on keeping everyone happy at the expensive of western productivity values but where am I happy - well here of course!

My boss here in Thailand is as laid back as they come which means I get a free hand to do what I want when I want and I run a office full of Thai ladies (heaven and hel_l combined) but when the boss does want something doing then it usually comes in the form of a last minute panic project because the idea of forward planning from my Thai boss doesn't even enter into it as they have no idea what the word means. So you just compensate instead and as such I have aquired the same skills as Radar from Mash had and just try to anticipate as much as you can what my boss needs.

As for my wife's boss, well as a person I would say he was one big superficial spineless jerk of the first order and he couldn't manage his way out of a paper bag from a business oriented perspective but having said that he sure as hel_l knows how to throw a party and to take care of his staff. As such he gets loyalty for showing Greng jai and Nam Jai to the troops and it seems to work for him. I know back in England he wouldn't last two minutes, but quite equally if a foreigner was in this particular job trying to do the same thing then the chances are he would be alone in the office most of the time with no Thai staff left.

Having said all of that, it still frustrates me that the Thai's would still rather leave a job open for months on end because they cannot find anyone with the experience and skills to do the job locally rather than offer it out to a foreigner who satisfies all the requirements (except being Thai) to do the job instead.

[bendix]

And expat packages like this are as real as the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow!

I've only heard of such packages being put together for places like Singapore, Hong Kong and the like, you also need hefty graduate skills.

Not necessarily true. A salary survey on this forum several months ago showed that more than a few people here have such packages. This forum's diversity is its strength: I know of a few expats in large multinationals who regularly check and contribute to thaivisa. Such figures arent unreasonable.

[younghusband]

And expat packages like this are as real as the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow!

I've only heard of such packages being put together for places like Singapore, Hong Kong and the like, you also need hefty graduate skills.

Not necessarily true. A salary survey on this forum several months ago showed that more than a few people here have such packages. This forum's diversity is its strength: I know of a few expats in large multinationals who regularly check and contribute to thaivisa. Such figures arent unreasonable.

It is absurd to call this forum diverse, ie representing a broad cross section of expatriates.There are certainly some members holding senior positions in the corporate world but they are dwarfed by the huge mob of small "businessmen", visa runners,pattaya retirees,drifters etc etc.Having said that I think this is an excellent forum with some superb commentators on Thai politics and culture and on the whole well moderated.

[bendix]

It is absurd to call this forum diverse, ie representing a broad cross section of expatriates.There are certainly some members holding senior positions in the corporate world but they are dwarfed by the huge mob of small "businessmen", visa runners,pattaya retirees,drifters etc etc.Having said that I think this is an excellent forum with some superb commentators on Thai politics and culture and on the whole well moderated.

Ummm . . isnt that the definition of diverse? Senior execs, retirees, visa runners, small businessmen, teachers, drifters . . . how much more diverse do you want to be?

Just as in regular society around 5% may earn 3-4 times that society's average income, so too - I would expect - is the case here.

My point was that the income survey done here a while ago showed a relatively even spread of income ranges - from the large to the non-existent. And i made it to refute the claim that the expat package is scarcer than hen's teeth.

[Casanundra]

Either that or people are very good at lying about how much they really earn in Thailand.

I was talking to some guy not so long ago who claimed to be earning 250k per month on an expat package as well as earning 1 million baht in his annual bonus... then the truth caught up with him and we all found out that in reality he was earning no more than a street urk at Burger King.

One thing I have learnt about working here is to take some of the figures that some of my own country folk tell me as being their salary with a pinch of salt.

[davidjtayler]

Either that or people are very good at lying about how much they really earn in Thailand.

I was talking to some guy not so long ago who claimed to be earning 250k per month on an expat package as well as earning 1 million baht in his annual bonus... then the truth caught up with him and we all found out that in reality he was earning no more than a street urk at Burger King.

One thing I have learnt about working here is to take some of the figures that some of my own country folk tell me as being their salary with a pinch of salt.

LOL ... the famous Bangkok millionaires .... a dime a dozen in any bar on any given night here.

[pedro01]

Either that or people are very good at lying about how much they really earn in Thailand.

I was talking to some guy not so long ago who claimed to be earning 250k per month on an expat package as well as earning 1 million baht in his annual bonus... then the truth caught up with him and we all found out that in reality he was earning no more than a street urk at Burger King.

One thing I have learnt about working here is to take some of the figures that some of my own country folk tell me as being their salary with a pinch of salt.

High earners are out there. I know from personal experience.

Think about it - all the parents at schools like ISB & Bangkok Patana. Look at the school fees, look at the places they live (such as Nichida Thani) and think about the rentals they must be paying. Look at the cars they drive & consider the lease payments.

- Medical insurance - 10,000 - 15,000 a month for a good William Russell policy for a 45 year old couple with 2 kids

- 2 kids in high school at ISB - 1.3 million Baht a year (with a one-off entry fee of 220,000 per kid)

- Rental on a nice 4 bed house in Nichida - 100,000 -> 150,000 a month easily.

- BMW - 50-60,000 a month lease

Companies aren't going to pay all this for a Senior Manager only earning 250,000 a month - it doesn't make sense.

OR - perhaps there are no senior execs in Nichida Thani driving leased BMWs...

The people you are talking to who brag about earning 250K per month are NOT senior executives. Such people do not brag about their salaries (it's bad if the troops find out) and they earn a lot more than 250K per month.

[steveromagnino]

The people you are talking to who brag about earning 250K per month are NOT senior executives. Such people do not brag about their salaries (it's bad if the troops find out) and they earn a lot more than 250K per month.

I have numerous Thai friends earning in excess of 250k a month; it isn't that big a number for senior executive management, and being that they already live here, then it isn't surprising that a genuine expat would probably be looking for a number significantly higher than that.

Sadly, I am not one of the chosen few, I guess it must be for various reasons mostly probably related to younghusband's comments; being a part-Thai male that makes me an inept clod incapable of doing any real work and thus I apparently need some even more inept foreign white ghost to come in and show me how to manage my staff and clean my bottom etc etc. Strangely my Thai friends don't seem to fit that mold, but they must be the exceptions that prove the rule.

A few foreigners here would be well wise to think themselves lucky so many Thai men are apparently so <deleted> useless (like me) as if it wasn't for that, their own language deficiencies, poor communication skills, shaky work record and sloppy management techniques would be surplus to requirements 'up in here'. Think yourselves lucky lads, as people like me are opening opportunities for people like you, to marry dodgy women nothing like either of us.

Mind you, the odd thing is usually, when i meet a foreign face working in a big company, I expect that they will be even more hopeless than their Thai counterparts. And more often than not, if the face is white, i am not disappointed. Particularly the ones who complain about everything once they learn of my fine education courtesy of Rob Muldoon, podgy Lange and the Bolge - they must think even though I am Thai, I am also 'one of them'. Those are usually the ones who fail to understand that management is there to create systems and processes for their workers; for many this is the first time they have worked outside a system and their own inadequacies suddenly become blatantly clear; when they had the support of a smooth running systematic enterprise, they were rockstars, now they are <deleted> Pop Idol. Nice play Shakespeare.

I blame the high levels of chilli in the food. Is it nature of nuture? I say nature. The nature of 'ped' because chillis are the essence of 'ped' and 'ped' is the essence of Thai food. And Thai food is the essence of 'aharn' and 'aharn' is the essence of nutrition.

This is the sort of <deleted> Thai men come out with apparently, and as a result I expect to replaced by a Japanese made lesbian robot shortly in the new year. Shortly, because as everyone knows, robots don't need to be tall. And Japanese, because of the song.

Casundra - love the burger king story ....

For sure, depending where you hang out no doubt you can hear all manner of nonsense about how much people earn, that's for sure..... it is almost up there with hanging around a casino and listening to how much people have won (or lost) Good times; Burger King aye? Well, as the joke goes, what did the Arts Honours student say to the Engineering graduate? 'would you like fries with that order?'

Or what did the Japanese financier say to the American Financier?

'How now rong bon?

Ah yes, classic senior executive humour; they give out a joke book once you are part of the club. I've seen it, really, no really, this one foreign guy who was earning 2m baht a month working in real estate, he showed me. Foreign guys are cool.

Edited October 25, 2006 by steveromagnino

[pedro01]

The people you are talking to who brag about earning 250K per month are NOT senior executives. Such people do not brag about their salaries (it's bad if the troops find out) and they earn a lot more than 250K per month.

I have numerous Thai friends earning in excess of 250k a month; it isn't that big a number for senior executive management, and being that they already live here, then it isn't surprising that a genuine expat would probably be looking for a number significantly higher than that.

Sadly, I am not one of the chosen few, I guess it must be for various reasons mostly probably related to younghusband's comments; being a part-Thai male that makes me an inept clod incapable of doing any real work and thus I apparently need some even more inept foreign white ghost to come in and show me how to manage my staff and clean my bottom etc etc. Strangely my Thai friends don't seem to fit that mold, but they must be the exceptions that prove the rule.

A few foreigners here would be well wise to think themselves lucky so many Thai men are apparently so <deleted> useless (like me) as if it wasn't for that, their own language deficiencies, poor communication skills, shaky work record and sloppy management techniques would be surplus to requirements 'up in here'. Think yourselves lucky lads, as people like me are opening opportunities for people like you, to marry dodgy women nothing like either of us.

Mind you, the odd thing is usually, when i meet a foreign face working in a big company, I expect that they will be even more hopeless than their Thai counterparts. And more often than not, if the face is white, i am not disappointed. Particularly the ones who complain about everything once they learn of my fine education courtesy of Rob Muldoon, podgy Lange and the Bolge - they must think even though I am Thai, I am also 'one of them'. Those are usually the ones who fail to understand that management is there to create systems and processes for their workers; for many this is the first time they have worked outside a system and their own inadequacies suddenly become blatantly clear; when they had the support of a smooth running systematic enterprise, they were rockstars, now they are <deleted> Pop Idol. Nice play Shakespeare.

I blame the high levels of chilli in the food. Is it nature of nuture? I say nature. The nature of 'ped' because chillis are the essence of 'ped' and 'ped' is the essence of Thai food. And Thai food is the essence of 'aharn' and 'aharn' is the essence of nutrition.

This is the sort of <deleted> Thai men come out with apparently, and as a result I expect to replaced by a Japanese made lesbian robot shortly in the new year. Shortly, because as everyone knows, robots don't need to be tall. And Japanese, because of the song.

Casundra - love the burger king story ....

For sure, depending where you hang out no doubt you can hear all manner of nonsense about how much people earn, that's for sure..... it is almost up there with hanging around a casino and listening to how much people have won (or lost) Good times; Burger King aye? Well, as the joke goes, what did the Arts Honours student say to the Engineering graduate? 'would you like fries with that order?'

Or what did the Japanese financier say to the American Financier?

'How now rong bon?

Ah yes, classic senior executive humour; they give out a joke book once you are part of the club. I've seen it, really, no really, this one foreign guy who was earning 2m baht a month working in real estate, he showed me. Foreign guys are cool.

Would you like some fish with that chip you have on your shoulder there ?

Whilst younghusband seems to have a jaded opinions of Thai males - you seem to have similar opinions of farang males.

Have you & younghusband considered getting married ?

Making wild generalisations about people with either white or brown faces is simply bigoted. Your claims to know how most 'white faces' operate are as ludicrous as younghusband knowing how 'all Thai men' operate. Whilst the language you use shows intelligence, the points you are making do not.

I can't see how it's really possible in your career to have experienced so many white execs across a broad range of industries. I am in IT, yet I lay no claim to know about execs outside of my field - I simply don't come across them in a working environment.

I worked with Ericsson for a while - UK, Hungary, Netherlands, France and Denmark - guess what ? There were Swedish people in ALL of those locations. Foreign companies tend to have people from the companies home country with LOTS of experience in product, company operations, corporate culture etc. It's only natural for them to get posted overseas as opportunities arise. What would you prefer in your overseas operation - a new local guy or someone you have worked, dined & played with for 20 years ?

There will always be expats in Thailand - just as there are Thais overseas. These expats will be at different levels within an organisation. It's just the way the world works. Some will be execs, some will be crap, some will be great. Some will have got where they did kissing ass & stabbing backs whereas others will have worked hard & got results.

The world is full of all types of people & Thailand is no exception

Pedro

[steveromagnino]

Have you & younghusband considered getting married ?

Making wild generalisations about people with either white or brown faces is simply bigoted. Your claims to know how most 'white faces' operate are as ludicrous as younghusband knowing how 'all Thai men' operate. Whilst the language you use shows intelligence, the points you are making do not.

I can't see how it's really possible in your career to have experienced so many white execs across a broad range of industries. I am in IT, yet I lay no claim to know about execs outside of my field - I simply don't come across them in a working environment.

I worked with Ericsson for a while - UK, Hungary, Netherlands, France and Denmark - guess what ? There were Swedish people in ALL of those locations. Foreign companies tend to have people from the companies home country with LOTS of experience in product, company operations, corporate culture etc. It's only natural for them to get posted overseas as opportunities arise. What would you prefer in your overseas operation - a new local guy or someone you have worked, dined & played with for 20 years ?

There will always be expats in Thailand - just as there are Thais overseas. These expats will be at different levels within an organisation. It's just the way the world works. Some will be execs, some will be crap, some will be great. Some will have got where they did kissing ass & stabbing backs whereas others will have worked hard & got results.

Thanks for the offer to be a 'mair suu' however i suspect that younghusband is the wrong gender and also unavailable; send a photo and we can talk about it :-)

I make nil claims about most industries or farangs in general; just in MY experience they are sometimes no better than many of the locals, and in some cases a hel_l of a lot worse. In my various jobs I do get to meet a fair few senior executives, perhaps more than most, and I tell it how I see it. Some of the expats I admire most here would echo exactly what I said.

Indeed you make some great points about why some of them are here. And no question, some are gobsmackingly great for their companies and for the local economy.

If you want to pick apart my comments piece by piece, then do so, but don't start by putting words in my mouth; there isn't room with my foot already well placed touching my throat.

[ColPyat]

Time to keep 'ya heads down - in a minute the pocket protectors come flyin'...

[thaigene2]

My point was that the income survey done here a while ago showed a relatively even spread of income ranges - from the large to the non-existent. And i made it to refute the claim that the expat package is scarcer than hen's teeth.

You may have a point Bendix..

But I think the reality here as elsewhere is that there are lots of expat professional and semi-professionals popping up all over the world who aren't waiting for their 'company' to touch them with the magic wand of 'all expenses paid'. I'm one of them..and I've worked in Asia and Europe under my own steam for nearly 15 years. There are many just like me reading this post. No free schooling for our kids, no 'home-leave' or rental allowances..Why pay when we are already here and not little fishies out of water with the Stepford Wife in tow.

Why companies would still pay 10,000 USD per month to one of their 'guys' to come out here and do the job I could do for them for 5,000 USD is simply naive on their part. Those US-based company bosses haven't caught up with the available labor pool in situ - not just in BKK but in Tokyo, in London, in Rio - and who also speak the local language and don't need their hands held for a couple of years.

But they'll figure it out eventually. Notice the Int'l schools are now starting to drop their entry fees? Why is that? Maybe those bosses have ALREADY figured it out..and bilingual schools are challenging...and -- and -- the blue-chip world is starting to collapse in on itself? I'd take a local knowledge expat over some wide-eyed company idiot from HQ anytime....like others have said here..throw a fish out of water and all he can do is wiggle and draw attention. Attention doesn't equal sanook in a Thai office.

[steveromagnino]

Why companies would still pay 10,000 USD per month to one of their 'guys' to come out here and do the job I could do for them for 5,000 USD is simply naive on their part. Those US-based company bosses haven't caught up with the available labor pool in situ - not just in BKK but in Tokyo, in London, in Rio - and who also speak the local language and don't need their hands held for a couple of years.

But they'll figure it out eventually. Notice the Int'l schools are now starting to drop their entry fees? Why is that? Maybe those bosses have ALREADY figured it out..and bilingual schools are challenging...and -- and -- the blue-chip world is starting to collapse in on itself? I'd take a local knowledge expat over some wide-eyed company idiot from HQ anytime....like others have said here..throw a fish out of water and all he can do is wiggle and draw attention. Attention doesn't equal sanook in a Thai office.

In a nutshell :-) But nice work if you can get it :-)

[younghusband]

The people you are talking to who brag about earning 250K per month are NOT senior executives. Such people do not brag about their salaries (it's bad if the troops find out) and they earn a lot more than 250K per month.

I have numerous Thai friends earning in excess of 250k a month; it isn't that big a number for senior executive management, and being that they already live here, then it isn't surprising that a genuine expat would probably be looking for a number significantly higher than that.

Sadly, I am not one of the chosen few, I guess it must be for various reasons mostly probably related to younghusband's comments; being a part-Thai male that makes me an inept clod incapable of doing any real work and thus I apparently need some even more inept foreign white ghost to come in and show me how to manage my staff and clean my bottom etc etc. Strangely my Thai friends don't seem to fit that mold, but they must be the exceptions that prove the rule.

A few foreigners here would be well wise to think themselves lucky so many Thai men are apparently so <deleted> useless (like me) as if it wasn't for that, their own language deficiencies, poor communication skills, shaky work record and sloppy management techniques would be surplus to requirements 'up in here'. Think yourselves lucky lads, as people like me are opening opportunities for people like you, to marry dodgy women nothing like either of us.

Mind you, the odd thing is usually, when i meet a foreign face working in a big company, I expect that they will be even more hopeless than their Thai counterparts. And more often than not, if the face is white, i am not disappointed. Particularly the ones who complain about everything once they learn of my fine education courtesy of Rob Muldoon, podgy Lange and the Bolge - they must think even though I am Thai, I am also 'one of them'. Those are usually the ones who fail to understand that management is there to create systems and processes for their workers; for many this is the first time they have worked outside a system and their own inadequacies suddenly become blatantly clear; when they had the support of a smooth running systematic enterprise, they were rockstars, now they are <deleted> Pop Idol. Nice play Shakespeare.

I blame the high levels of chilli in the food. Is it nature of nuture? I say nature. The nature of 'ped' because chillis are the essence of 'ped' and 'ped' is the essence of Thai food. And Thai food is the essence of 'aharn' and 'aharn' is the essence of nutrition.

This is the sort of <deleted> Thai men come out with apparently, and as a result I expect to replaced by a Japanese made lesbian robot shortly in the new year. Shortly, because as everyone knows, robots don't need to be tall. And Japanese, because of the song.

Casundra - love the burger king story ....

For sure, depending where you hang out no doubt you can hear all manner of nonsense about how much people earn, that's for sure..... it is almost up there with hanging around a casino and listening to how much people have won (or lost) Good times; Burger King aye? Well, as the joke goes, what did the Arts Honours student say to the Engineering graduate? 'would you like fries with that order?'

Or what did the Japanese financier say to the American Financier?

'How now rong bon?

Ah yes, classic senior executive humour; they give out a joke book once you are part of the club. I've seen it, really, no really, this one foreign guy who was earning 2m baht a month working in real estate, he showed me. Foreign guys are cool.

Would you like some fish with that chip you have on your shoulder there ?

Whilst younghusband seems to have a jaded opinions of Thai males - you seem to have similar opinions of farang males.

Have you & younghusband considered getting married ?

Making wild generalisations about people with either white or brown faces is simply bigoted. Your claims to know how most 'white faces' operate are as ludicrous as younghusband knowing how 'all Thai men' operate. Whilst the language you use shows intelligence, the points you are making do not.

I can't see how it's really possible in your career to have experienced so many white execs across a broad range of industries. I am in IT, yet I lay no claim to know about execs outside of my field - I simply don't come across them in a working environment.

I worked with Ericsson for a while - UK, Hungary, Netherlands, France and Denmark - guess what ? There were Swedish people in ALL of those locations. Foreign companies tend to have people from the companies home country with LOTS of experience in product, company operations, corporate culture etc. It's only natural for them to get posted overseas as opportunities arise. What would you prefer in your overseas operation - a new local guy or someone you have worked, dined & played with for 20 years ?

There will always be expats in Thailand - just as there are Thais overseas. These expats will be at different levels within an organisation. It's just the way the world works. Some will be execs, some will be crap, some will be great. Some will have got where they did kissing ass & stabbing backs whereas others will have worked hard & got results.

The world is full of all types of people & Thailand is no exception

Pedro

I never said I knew how all Thai men operate.My point was that there are serious weaknesses with Thai corporate culture, particularly at the middle level of executive.Obviously not all executives suffer from these problems and there are many exceptions.However the general pattern would not be questioned by expats who have had personal experience of Thai corporate culture over many years.It would not even be controversial.

On another poster's point the bad news for qualified expats resident in Thailand is that there is a degree of suspicion in hiring locally based farang for high level posts unless they have a very clear track record of success.Rightly or wrongly there is a perception that nobody serious would voluntarily base themselves in Bangkok.

A related point is that although Thailand based expats prattle on about their local knowledge, cultural awareness, language skills,business network etc etc it usually doesn't add up to more than a row of beans.My advice would always be find a bright overseas educated Thai (Ivy League) or similar who has actually worked at a reasonably high level in US,Europe or Australia, and pay him/her well.Will always be better than the locally based farang with their so called Thai expertise and who are usually here for some mysterious compulsion.

[samran]

My point was that the income survey done here a while ago showed a relatively even spread of income ranges - from the large to the non-existent. And i made it to refute the claim that the expat package is scarcer than hen's teeth.

You may have a point Bendix..

But I think the reality here as elsewhere is that there are lots of expat professional and semi-professionals popping up all over the world who aren't waiting for their 'company' to touch them with the magic wand of 'all expenses paid'. I'm one of them..and I've worked in Asia and Europe under my own steam for nearly 15 years. There are many just like me reading this post. No free schooling for our kids, no 'home-leave' or rental allowances..Why pay when we are already here and not little fishies out of water with the Stepford Wife in tow.

Why companies would still pay 10,000 USD per month to one of their 'guys' to come out here and do the job I could do for them for 5,000 USD is simply naive on their part. Those US-based company bosses haven't caught up with the available labor pool in situ - not just in BKK but in Tokyo, in London, in Rio - and who also speak the local language and don't need their hands held for a couple of years.

But they'll figure it out eventually. Notice the Int'l schools are now starting to drop their entry fees? Why is that? Maybe those bosses have ALREADY figured it out..and bilingual schools are challenging...and -- and -- the blue-chip world is starting to collapse in on itself? I'd take a local knowledge expat over some wide-eyed company idiot from HQ anytime....like others have said here..throw a fish out of water and all he can do is wiggle and draw attention. Attention doesn't equal sanook in a Thai office.

seconded and thirded.

Way of the future.

Plus, I'd argue Thai salaries are catching up to the west for a certain class of proffessionals. So the gap is narrowing on that front too.

[thaihome]

The comment on ISB and other schools and the population of Nichta is well taken. Full expat packages are not uncommon in Thailand or the rest of the world. My company has several thousand worldwide, almost a hundred in Thailand alone. I know for a fact one other company that as about 20 or so in Thailand and will have over a hundred in Singapore by early next year.

These are not "Senior" people, these are middle level managers with 10+ years experience and the ability to lead a local workforce. I have been hearing we are going away for over 10 years, but every project we get, guess who gets sent to make it work. They don’t hang out in bars too much, though the have been to known to have a night out every now and then….

TH

[meom]

Are all expats equal in Thailand or is the height of the salary linked to their nationality as well like in the Middle-East where Americans are on top, followed by the Brits, followed by the rest of Europe, followed by the South-Africans, Indians etc?

[tutsiwarrior]

WOW tutsi ! I'm happily retired but for that kind of package, I'd seriously consider going back to work. I'd say packages like that are few and far between.

if you hire out locally expect a local salary...pocket money...good for sum smokes...

if you are falang with falang sensibilities you want to be an expatriate on an expatriate package including housing, transport, medical, etc. and a tax free salary about USD10K per month.

Don't even think about it otherwise...

I should clarify...expat packages like the one I describe are usually offered to a candidate whose CV has been reviewed by corporate headquarters in the US or other western countries and have decided that the man is what they want. The salary usually represents the equivalent wage paid at home plus an uplift of about 10 - 30% depending on the 'hardship' aspect of the job location.

The 'local' salary is paid to the expat living in Thailand that sends out his CV locally on spec and reflects what a thai employee with the same qualifications and experience would make, ie. a pittance compared to the expat salary.

USD10K per month plus package ain't unusual. My last job in Vietnam paid the same...an' I ain't even a manager...but I'm ###### good...

[Camelot]

The media company I work for employs both foreigners and Thais. It pays for the job, not for the nationality of the applicant. It makes no difference if the foreigner was hired in Bangkok or Birmingham. Why should it be any different?

It wasn't always this way. At one time foreigners received a huge premium for being...er..."foreign". That caused a great deal of resentment among the equally-qualified Thai staff. Ending that discrimination was the best thing we did and restored harmony among ALL staff.

We have no shortage of highly-qualified Thai and foreign applicants and they are all made aware of this policy.

Edited October 26, 2006 by Camelot

[tutsiwarrior]

The media company I work for employs both foreigners and Thais. It pays for the job, not for the nationality of the applicant. It makes no difference if the foreigner was hired in Bangkok or Birmingham. Why should it be any different?

It wasn't always this way. At one time foreigners received a huge premium for being...er..."foreign". That caused a great deal of resentment among the equally-qualified Thai staff. Ending that discrimination was the best thing we did and restored harmony among ALL staff.

We have no shortage of highly-qualified Thai and foreign applicants and they are all made aware of this policy.

hmmm...it don't seem likely to me that someone that was hired 'in Birmingham' and sent on assignment to Bangkok would expect to be paid a local salary...

however, I have to agree that the large discrepancy between expat and local salaries does cause resentment and can cause problems, especially if the expat's manager is a local on a local salary. As a consultant working for local clients especially in SE Asia (Indonesia and Vietnam) I have observed that the resentment can degenerate into abuse as in refusing to release expats for annual leave and otherwise interfering in expats personal affairs.

The salary discrepancy can be a drag, but quality help would not consider an overseas assignment without the traditional expat package...if they were to hire out remotely rather than locally. Expats hiring out locally pretty much know what to expect.

[younghusband]

The media company I work for employs both foreigners and Thais. It pays for the job, not for the nationality of the applicant. It makes no difference if the foreigner was hired in Bangkok or Birmingham. Why should it be any different?

It wasn't always this way. At one time foreigners received a huge premium for being...er..."foreign". That caused a great deal of resentment among the equally-qualified Thai staff. Ending that discrimination was the best thing we did and restored harmony among ALL staff.

We have no shortage of highly-qualified Thai and foreign applicants and they are all made aware of this policy.

If you have no shortage of highly qualified Thai staff why does your company hire foreigners at all? Or are you saying-but can't quite put aside political correctness to articulate the thought-that there are some jobs that Thais can't do? Actually it's a fairly pointless argument because it's all about profitabilty.If at all possible Thai employees will be maximised or trained up because it's more cost effective.No foreign company wants to waste money these days importing expats if locals can do the job just as well.

The days when foreigners received huge premiums just for being foreign are long gone.If the perception remains in some particular cases, could it just be that the foreigner concerned has expertise/ethical standards that are hard to find locally? Perish the thought in this country where technical excellence and honesty are so prevalent.

[Valjean]

I work for a multinational with a office here in Thailand. I have a team of about 20 Thai’s. No expats. Overall the subsidiary is about 95% Thai. American, Brit, Aussie, a few Singaporeans.

One thing an expat can bring is deep experience within our company. That’s how I landed here. Big companies are complex and it is helpful to have some broad experience from someone who has been in different business units and roles. Knows the company culture. Has a network.

I’d say if I was speaking in generalities there are differences between Thai’s and Farangs (and clearly among Farangs) . No generality applies at the individual level. One of the things I like and I know my staff likes is working in a multi-national, multi-cultural environment. We all bring something to the table. Sometimes my directness and unbridled enthusiasm are overpowering for my team – and sometimes it really exciting for them. Sometimes their more indirect approach is hard for me to understand and sometimes I really appreciate the respect and patience they show each other. Some individuals are easy for me to communicate with and vice versus and some take a little more work. We learn together and coach each other.

I have considered expats for positions. Mostly people working within the company today. Always I am looking for a special experience or attitude that I think will complement the team and help us get where we want to go faster and more profitable. It’s not a case of Thai’s not being capable for me. It’s just a special sort of experience and business culture attitude. But that is a really tough balance with local skills, especially language. Internally we can use English but externally Thai becomes so much more important. In external meetings I find it’s important to let the meeting go into Thai sometimes – I’m aware when 10 people have gone from their native language because of me and maybe for 5 of them it’s a real struggle. Even internally with people who communicate in email to each other in English, who speak it every day, who are quite fluent will say to meetings to me sometimes; “can we speak in Thai?”. Sometimes they just need to hash things out fast or have responsibility and role issues, accountability issues especially – the softer people issues do better in Thai. I become a huge tax to communication. (I can do conversational social Thai but not a detailed business discussion). So even if this expat if qualified I do have to balance that with the language and cultural issues. It’s not a free ride.

I don’t offer expat packages btw (schools, housing, driver, etc). If someone wants to come here intra-company it’s on a local package which likely means a pay cut. Overall with cost of living we can just about make someone come out about even but in the end they really need to want to come here for the work & life experience. It is not a place in the company to get a fat package. But they are great packages for life in Thailand. I’m happy thank you.

Valjean

<link removed>

Edited November 4, 2006 by Totster

[helicoptor]

I am emigrating to LOS next month and will be taking on a position that I have had 15 years experience in - however my thai salary will be 'local' - compared to my current UK salary numerically I am taking a 40% reduction in pay; naturally this is a non-issue as I will be 'richer' in the overall scheme of things, namely significantly reduced cost of living, quality of life for me and my family etc, etc

[JimsKnight]

Valjean, your links dead btw.

[younghusband]

I am emigrating to LOS next month and will be taking on a position that I have had 15 years experience in - however my thai salary will be 'local' - compared to my current UK salary numerically I am taking a 40% reduction in pay; naturally this is a non-issue as I will be 'richer' in the overall scheme of things, namely significantly reduced cost of living, quality of life for me and my family etc, etc

Good luck with your plans but with a 40% reduction in pay it is by no means a non-issue that you will be "richer" in the overall scheme of things.But without knowing more about your life in the UK, your expectations of Thailand and your financial position, its difficult to comment.Quality of life can certainly be excellent in Thailand for foreigners.On the other hand, although some will rage and scream against the idea, successful people in the UK also have an excellent quality of life.

I'm not sure I fully go along with it but a friend suggested the best way to work out a reasonable monthly income for Thailand was to take the average level put forward by members of this forum in the relevant threads, and then triple it.

My own view is that more depends on inner resources than money (though a minimum is obviously necessary).

[thaigene2]

Regarding living costs above. I think it really depends where you live in LOS. In Bangkok you can rent a really decent fully furnished studio apartment for around 9000 baht per month. Try getting that in the UK! But if you have a family like the person quoted above, you'd need to spend a minimum of 20,000 for renting a house somewhere central. Less if it's further out like Min Buri or Bangna. Condos are poorer vaule than houses when it comes to renting - don;t really know why. Perhaps some feel more secure in a condo setting.

If a family of four, I'd say you would need to spend 5-8000 on utilities,phones, cable, etc..and another 10,000 minimum on food.

A single person can get by on only half that if they eat Thai food every day.

So in total I reckon you need to earn at least 20,000 - 25,000 baht per month if single in BKK and 50-60,000 per month if married. That's just to scrape by. I know other will say you can get by for less..but not in my view. It's much cheaper outside of BKK though and that's why a lot of expats (esp semi-retired) do just that. Hope this helps.

[younghusband]

Regarding living costs above. I think it really depends where you live in LOS. In Bangkok you can rent a really decent fully furnished studio apartment for around 9000 baht per month. Try getting that in the UK! But if you have a family like the person quoted above, you'd need to spend a minimum of 20,000 for renting a house somewhere central. Less if it's further out like Min Buri or Bangna. Condos are poorer vaule than houses when it comes to renting - don;t really know why. Perhaps some feel more secure in a condo setting.

If a family of four, I'd say you would need to spend 5-8000 on utilities,phones, cable, etc..and another 10,000 minimum on food.

A single person can get by on only half that if they eat Thai food every day.

So in total I reckon you need to earn at least 20,000 - 25,000 baht per month if single in BKK and 50-60,000 per month if married. That's just to scrape by. I know other will say you can get by for less..but not in my view. It's much cheaper outside of BKK though and that's why a lot of expats (esp semi-retired) do just that. Hope this helps.

So applying my friend's triple rule, this would work out Bt 75,000 per single and Bt 150,000 per family.Sounds just about right to me.The serious point is of course that this poster and his type always seriously -in my opinion - underestimate what is needed for a reasonable life (ie inclusive of the occasional trip home, medical insurance, emergency fund etc etc).

This subject has been debated over and over again.Some say they can exist on the whiff of padaek in darkest Isaan.Others need Bt500,000 pm.Somebody always points out, correctly but not always helpfully, the requirement is as long as a piece of string.And so it goes round and round.

[helicoptor]

Good luck with your plans but with a 40% reduction in pay it is by no means a non-issue that you will be "richer" in the overall scheme of things.But without knowing more about your life in the UK, your expectations of Thailand and your financial position, its difficult to comment.Quality of life can certainly be excellent in Thailand for foreigners.On the other hand, although some will rage and scream against the idea, successful people in the UK also have an excellent quality of life.

I'm not sure I fully go along with it but a friend suggested the best way to work out a reasonable monthly income for Thailand was to take the average level put forward by members of this forum in the relevant threads, and then triple it.

My own view is that more depends on inner resources than money (though a minimum is obviously necessary).

This decision has been made after deliberation over the last 2 years and we are finally taking the plunge, We do have some reservations as you can imagine.. It is a BIG step, but we do have contingencies in place should it not work out (renting our UK property to an agency).

Time will tell.

[GuestHouse]

You need to be careful when making calculations about salary, consider pay rises and incflation.

I chose to leave Thailand 4 years ago, gave up a job there when my employers offered me a local deal rather than the exapt deal.

Others took the local deal and stayed on.

My base salary has since risen over 30%, their's has remained fixed.

The buy in offer in Thailand is very often all you get, while inflation continues to eat your income.

Nevertheless, I wish you the best of luck with your move and hope it works out for you.