Why Can't I Read?

[ourmanflint]

hi

I've been trying really hard to learn Thai, and to read Thai as I think this helps immeasurably, but ###### it for all my efforts, I cannot read the simplest sign on the BTS or any movie poster, or any ad at all for that matter, they all use some sort of upper case script that I have no clue about. Now I can read most menus and even some magazine articles , although I have no ideas what any of the words mean!!

Can someone point me in the right direction here, I can't find any reference to upper case scripts in any of my books

Cheers

[gburns57au]

There is no upper case script in Thai language....probably on about the freehand script used to dramatise or emphasize the words meaning...especially with movie posters and ads etc...

Try learning what the words mean....being able to read and not understand is like a blind man driving a car, You know what to do but it gets you nowhere....besides Thai is a language that runs words together in script...so how can you read if you dont understand where a word stops and another starts.

[jdinasia]

Get the Benjawan Poomsan Becker Thai-English/English-Thai dictionary it has all the common fonts in it.

[wasabi]

There is a modern Thai font used in ads and magazines. It minimizes many of the distinguishing features of Thai letters. To a Thai person they hardly notice a difference but for us we have to train ourselves to recognize this type of script. I'm still struggling with it myself but I have made progress.

[Tywais]

There is a modern Thai font used in ads and magazines. It minimizes many of the distinguishing features of Thai letters. To a Thai person they hardly notice a difference but for us we have to train ourselves to recognize this type of script. I'm still struggling with it myself but I have made progress.

Analogous to Serif and Sans Serif in the latin/roman characters.

[Rikker]

Some fonts will be easier to read at first than others. Your eyes will train to recognize the differences. In many fonts, the letters are reduced to their simplest distinguishing features.

For example,

U will mean บ

S will mean ร

etc.

Use the Benjawan dictionary as suggested or some other book that shows you different fonts and you'll improve in no time. Especially as you make associative links--signs reading ห้องน้ำ at the restroom, etc. A good place to start is the logos of American companies in Thai script. Take a picture of the McDonald's sign in Thai, for example, then puzzle it out until you can tell which each letter is.

Edited October 21, 2006 by Rikker

[ourmanflint]

cool

so it's just the fonts that people use that are changing, I should be able to DL somehwere so I have them myself... cheers

[meadish_sweetball]

Yep, the fonts are a pain in the bum in the beginning, but with practice you'll get there. This question has been discussed before, I think there are already posts in the forum with the most common "artistic" fonts and newspaper fonts.

[jdinasia]

The fonts used to make me want to scream! .....

Now the only one that bothers me is the "handwriting" font .... <<and of course handwriting>>

[meadish_sweetball]

Topics which may be of interest:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...c=46220&hl=

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...c=46065&hl=

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...c=29663&hl=

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...c=21544&hl=

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...c=19417&hl=

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...c=15947&hl=

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...c=15086&hl=

[hasekamp]

hi

I've been trying really hard to learn Thai, and to read Thai as I think this helps immeasurably, but ###### it for all my efforts, I cannot read the simplest sign on the BTS or any movie poster, or any ad at all for that matter, they all use some sort of upper case script that I have no clue about. Now I can read most menus and even some magazine articles , although I have no ideas what any of the words mean!!

Can someone point me in the right direction here, I can't find any

reference to upper case scripts in any of my books

Cheers

Hello,

The secret of learning to read some Thai is to study one hour a day and I mean every day. You will then be able to read a simple text in about one year.

Then you go to Thailand and one of the desillusions is that you still cannot read - for instance - most signs in the street. In the first place because they use words you haven't learned yet, and in the second place because they use those terrible 'modern' fonts.

One way to practice signs and these fonts is to go to the "signs" pages on http://www.learningthai.com . But apart from that you should continue your daily study of Thai texts.

Regards,

Rene Hasekamp

[ourmanflint]

I read my first sign at Big C today.... "Hoy Kraeng" that was only because I knew what they were and so I could work out the characters. It's a start.

And yes I do read for an hour a day not texts as such but vocabulary in Thai

[steveromagnino]

I read my first sign at Big C today.... "Hoy Kraeng" that was only because I knew what they were and so I could work out the characters. It's a start.

And yes I do read for an hour a day not texts as such but vocabulary in Thai

WHAT THE DEUCE?!

I love the avatar picture BTW :-)

Practise practise practise; newspaper BKK Post on a Tuesday and children's books are a good place to start; also practise writing, as then you engrain things in your memory a bit quicker.

The various fonts get easier as you develop a vocab; road signs are in a pretty standard font, as are some company names and advertiising; pick out those ones to practise on first, then graduate to the more elaborate ones.

good luck!

[g00dgirl]

If it was easier to read, one could learn so many words, just like learning another language where you know where each word starts and ends, you identify a word you don't know and underline it and look it up, nice.

In Thai you don't know what is a word, so you can't underline and look anything up in the first place.

I would think it would help to have a Thai teacher or friend separate all words for you in a text, any Thai teacher opinion or experience about this?

Then at least one could start to learn words and after a while recognize them and recognize them hopefully without spaces, too.

Did anyone try this?

[Oswulf]

There's an excellent (if a little challenging) paper by Doug Cooper about how Thais tell letters apart. You can find the links on the old thread at:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...c=46220&hl=

[baennaenae]

If you don't know how a word is spelt, how would you know where the word ends ?!?!?!?!

For example, Wanneeargardronmaakmakk ( The weather is very hot today. )

We actualy use spaces to split sentences but you know, Thai people can be very slack, too and it becomes habit and lots of them don't use spaces but I do

Edited November 26, 2006 by baennaenae

[ourmanflint]

Because most Thai words are single syllables!!

[baennaenae]

Because most Thai words are single syllables!!

Wrong !!!!

We make Thai words single syllable when we type in English to make it easier for you guys to pronounce but not when we write in Thai

For example;

Som Tarm = Somtarm

Tom Yarm Goong = Tomyarmgoong

Prig = chilli

Narm Prig = Narmprig (Chilli paste)

Poom Pooye = Poompooye (plump)

Pad Thai = Padthai

Pad Gra Pao Moo = PadgrapaomMoo

Gaeng Kheaw Warn = Gaengkheawwarn

Nong Sao = Nongsao

Loog Sao = Loogsao

Narm = water

Narm Ma Prao = Narmmaprao ( coconut juice )

Narm Gra Ti = Narmgrati (coconut milk)

Rong Rean = Rongrean (School)

Rong Rean Anubarn = Rongreananubarn (kintergarten)

Rong Rean Muttayom = Rongreanmuttayom (high school)

Maha Wittayalai = Mahawittayalai (University)

Muay Thai = Muaythai (Thai boxing)

And much much more.....

Edited November 26, 2006 by baennaenae

[ourmanflint]

you've lost me!! What are you saying, that all the combinations of words above are actually words in themselves?? I've never heard that anywhere!!

[toptuan]

Regarding Thai "advertising" or "poster" fonts: When I first came to Thailand from the USA, I was so proud that one of the most popular household detergents used here was called "USA" brand. I often referred to it, but my Thai friends just looked at me strangely.

It took awhile to realize I was reading a derivation of a Thai font that had nothing to do with the USA. (Ethno-centrism adds a real handicap to learning a new language too... )

[baennaenae]

you've lost me!! What are you saying, that all the combinations of words above are actually words in themselves?? I've never heard that anywhere!!

No, I have not lost you, ourmanflint. It's the fact and that is one of many things that a lot of foreigners should understand and it will make things easier when you want to learn Thai I meant Rean pasathai .

Rong = a hall

Rean = learn, study

Rongrean = School

Pasa = language

Pasa Thai = Pasathai (Thai language)

Pasa Ung-grit = Pasaunggrit (English language)

Pasa Farang Sed = Pasa farangsed ( French language )

Pratoo = door

Barnpratoo = door

Narng Seu = Narngseu ( book )

Soo Nuck = Soonuck also dog (literature)

Maa = a dog ( informal ), also a horse ( becareful with your pronunciation with this one , otherwise, you would end up riding a dog instead of a horse ! )

As I mentioned ealier, we break the words up so you guys don't get a sore head when pronounce it. Good luck

[ourmanflint]

Yes I'd like a second opinion please!!

[Rikker]

Wrong !!!!

We make Thai words single syllable when we type in English to make it easier for you guys to pronounce but not when we write in Thai smile.gif

A "syllable" is a unit of spoken speech, not a unit of written speech. พยางค์ is the corresponding Thai word.

Thai is frequently characterized as a monosyllabic (one-syllable) language, because the vast majority of native Thai words are just that.

For example, ส้มตำ is two syllables, ส้ม and ตำ. And each one is a meaningful Thai monosyllabic Thai word. (ส้ม which means 'sour' and probably comes from Chinese, and ตำ meaning to pound in a mortar)

Thai has lots of disyllabic (two-syllable) and polysyllabic (many-syllable) words, too, usually from borrowing from other languages. But also through natural processes of sound change, such as สะไภ้ becoming a single two-syllable word when it used to to be two (สาวไภ้), and similarly for words like มะม่วง (which comes from หมากม่วง, where หมาก meant 'fruit').

Writing the words with or without spaces has nothing to do with the number of syllables.

Edited November 26, 2006 by Rikker

[baennaenae]

Wrong !!!!

We make Thai words single syllable when we type in English to make it easier for you guys to pronounce but not when we write in Thai smile.gif

A "syllable" is a unit of spoken speech, not a unit of written speech. ?????? is the corresponding Thai word.

Thai is frequently characterized as a monosyllabic (one-syllable) language, because the vast majority of native Thai words are just that.

For example, ????? is two syllables, ??? and ??. And each one is a meaningful Thai monosyllabic Thai word. (??? which means 'sour' and probably comes from Chinese, and ?? meaning to pound in a mortar)

Thai has lots of disyllabic (two-syllable) and polysyllabic (many-syllable) words, too, usually from borrowing from other languages. But also through natural processes of sound change, such as ????? becoming a single two-syllable word when it used to to be two (??????), and similarly for words like ?????? (which comes from ????????, where ???? meant 'fruit').

Writing the words with or without spaces has nothing to do with the number of syllables.

I am not saying that spaces distinguish syllables but SENTENCES. I have never heard ' Saopai ' or 'Margmuang' in spoken language maybe I was born in later period I do know though that those words are kept in the libraries. To me you are talking about the change of the language here which is good to know the roots of it. My arguement,however, is a Thai word can have MORE THAN JUST ONE SYLLABLE that lots of foreigners understand. Some even have three syllables e.g So-pheh-nee, ma-ra-yard, etc.. or even four syllables like " Pit-ja-ra-na "... etc.

By the way, " Som " = Orange or some fruit that has a sourish flavour

but " Preaw " = sour

We wouldn't say ' This Somtarm is a bit som '. We use 'Preaw'

Cheers

Edited November 26, 2006 by baennaenae

[Rikker]

Changes like สาวไภ้ and หมากม่วง becoming สะไภ้ and มะม่วง are things that happened long before any of us were born, since some of the earliest Thai dictionaries (19th century) already record them in the forms we're familiar with.

I was talking about the status of the (native vocabulary of the) Thai language as monosyllabic. Ourmanflint's statement that most Thai words are one syllable is exactly correct, for native Thai words. I was simply explaining how native Thai words sometimes change to become more than one syllable.

All three of the examples you cite, พิจารณา, มารยาท and โสเภณี are Indic words borrowed into Thai. Loanwords like these account for the vast, vast majority of Thai di- or polysyllabic words.

Also, I'm well aware that เปรี้ยว is the common descriptive word for 'sour.' However, we do see ส้ม in a number of constructions in which it means 'sour,' such as น้ำส้ม(สายชู), แกงส้ม, and of course ส้มตำ. The fact that oranges are called ส้ม probably comes from the fact that they are sour, rather than the other things being called ส้ม because they are orange.

Prapin Manomaivibool of Chula in a 2000 paper proposes that ส้ม comes from the Old Chinese *sam.

If that's the case, then the order of development for the different senses of ส้ม would be (1) sour, (2) orange and other fruits (e.g. ส้มโอ which is sour but *not* colored orange), (3) color (from the name of the fruit).

Language is fun...

Edited November 26, 2006 by Rikker

[baennaenae]

Changes like ?????? and ???????? becoming ????? and ?????? are things that happened long before any of us were born, since some of the earliest Thai dictionaries (19th century) already record them in the forms we're familiar with.

I was talking about the status of the (native vocabulary of the) Thai language as monosyllabic. Ourmanflint's statement that most Thai words are one syllable is exactly correct, for native Thai words. I was simply explaining how native Thai words sometimes change to become more than one syllable.

All three of the examples you cite, ???????, ?????? and ?????? are Indic words borrowed into Thai. Loanwords like these account for the vast, vast majority of Thai di- or polysyllabic words.

Also, I'm well aware that ??????? is the common descriptive word for 'sour.' However, we do see ??? in a number of constructions in which it means 'sour,' such as ??????(?????), ??????, and of course ?????. The fact that oranges are called ??? probably comes from the fact that they are sour, rather than the other things being called ??? because they are orange.

Prapin Manomaivibool of Chula in a 2000 paper proposes that ??? comes from the Old Chinese *sam.

If that's the case, then the order of development for the different senses of ??? would be (1) sour, (2) orange and other fruits (e.g. ????? which is sour but *not* colored orange), (3) color (from the name of the fruit).

Language is fun...

YES YES...Language is fun... I learnt a lot from you

IF we dig deep further down the roots of languages in this little planet I think they are actually connected because one seems to borrow from another.

Edited November 26, 2006 by baennaenae

[Rikker]

You're certainly right that they're all connected through borrowing, but inter-borrowing and genetic relation are different things. We simply don't have the evidence we need to trace language origins much farther back than we already have. There are a few different theories about where the Tai/Thai languages fit into it all, but the general consensus these days is that they are their own separate group, not demonstrably related to any other language family out there. It's a mystery...

[ourmanflint]

So most Thai words are single syllable words, and conjugations of words such as Pasaathai are simply that... pasaathai is not a word in itself, it may be written as a continous word but it is in fact two words... am I right??

I can't see what baennaenae was trying to get at. I know words are written together continously, but that doesn't make them any bigger, multisyllabic words does it??

[baennaenae]

So most Thai words are single syllable words, and conjugations of words such as Pasaathai are simply that... pasaathai is not a word in itself, it may be written as a continous word but it is in fact two words... am I right??

I can't see what baennaenae was trying to get at. I know words are written together continously, but that doesn't make them any bigger, multisyllabic words does it??

Let's say Thai language has both single syllable and more than one syllble words , for example, if you split some single two-syllable words, it doesn't give a meaning individually or it some give a different meaning e.g Taliw (in Thai style) which means a flat-headed big spoon for cooking stir fry that goes with the wok. If you split this word into Ta Liw ;

Ta = ? ( not eye as this one sounds much shorter )

Liw = ?

But Taliw Pronounced Ta-liw = ( as I mentioned above )

Naangseu = a book

Naang = skin, a movie

seu = (laai) seu (Thai) (Thai writing)

Rongtao pronounced rong-tao = any type of shoes

rong = support

tao = feet

I am trying to say that you can say Naang Seu but if you want to write in Thai correctly it has got to be naangseu or Bi Da, lae ( and ) Marn Da literature words for father and mother but the correct way to write Bi Da is bida(father) which pronouced bi-da, Marnda(marn-da) = mother

If you write Bi Da and Marn Da in Thai most people know what you mean but correctly is as above.

I'll show you when I can type Thai from my PC but at the moment I can't because I need to put Thai alphabet stickers on my keyboards

This is another example, if you want a blanket you need to type ' paahom ' in stead of Paa Hom because

Paa = to any type of cloth that smaller than a blanket

Hom = to cover

so Paahom = blanket

As I said ealier that you can say each syllable regardless as we all say each syllable in every language anyway but when you want it on a piece of paper you need to spell it correctly, otherwise, you won't get what you asked for.

This is how I Sa Peak Eng Lish;

Good eve ning ev ver ry bo dy, how are you to day?. My name is Baen Nae Nae , I like learn ning Eng Lish be cause it is fun but some times I get a sore head from it. The pro nun ci a tion is quite dif fi cult but I love it. For get a bout the mean ning of the words un like Thai Lang guage

peace out

Edited November 27, 2006 by baennaenae

[baennaenae]

What is Blan Ket to you ? Can I write or type Blank Ket for blanket ? You wouldn't write Mor Ning for moring , would you? or Or Ri Gin for Origin or Beu Ti ful for beautiful etc... , would you???

Thai language is the same