Why Can't I Read?

[In the Rai!]

If you don't know how a word is spelt, how would you know where the word ends ?!?!?!?!

For example, Wanneeargardronmaakmakk ( The weather is very hot today. )

We actualy use spaces to split sentences but you know, Thai people can be very slack, too and it becomes habit and lots of them don't use spaces but I do

Baennaenae, I am a little confused. At first you said that Thais use spaces between sentences and now you are talking about spaces between two words.

Could you clarify please and have a check over your previous posts.

cheers ITR

[baennaenae]

If you don't know how a word is spelt, how would you know where the word ends ?!?!?!?!

For example, Wanneeargardronmaakmakk ( The weather is very hot today. )

We actualy use spaces to split sentences but you know, Thai people can be very slack, too and it becomes habit and lots of them don't use spaces but I do

Baennaenae, I am a little confused. At first you said that Thais use spaces between sentences and now you are talking about spaces between two words.

Could you clarify please and have a check over your previous posts.

cheers ITR

Am I ?

We use spaces among sentences regardless

[Richard W]

We make Thai words single syllable when we type in English to make it easier for you guys to pronounce but not when we write in Thai

I've seen Thai handwritten with spaces between words (sometimes between syllables). Are these spaces something you are taught to eliminate? It's possible that the spaces appear because people recall the spelling word by word.

[s.sophon]

In English, when we write, we have spaces in sentences.

In Thai, when we write, we don't have spaces in sentences.

There are some exceptions, example is putting a Person name.

[In the Rai!]

We make Thai words single syllable when we type in English to make it easier for you guys to pronounce but not when we write in Thai

I've seen Thai handwritten with spaces between words (sometimes between syllables). Are these spaces something you are taught to eliminate? It's possible that the spaces appear because people recall the spelling word by word.

The only time I have ever seen spaces between words is in grade 1 text books or below. as soon as they hit grade 2 there are no more spaces. only between sentences.

baennaenae, I dont think anyone is disagreeing with you about spaces between sentences, its just that you started talking about spacing words which I dont believe was ever discussed. Hence I am confued as to what your point was earlier.

cheers ITR

[baennaenae]

We make Thai words single syllable when we type in English to make it easier for you guys to pronounce but not when we write in Thai

I've seen Thai handwritten with spaces between words (sometimes between syllables). Are these spaces something you are taught to eliminate? It's possible that the spaces appear because people recall the spelling word by word.

The only time I have ever seen spaces between words is in grade 1 text books or below. as soon as they hit grade 2 there are no more spaces. only between sentences.

baennaenae, I dont think anyone is disagreeing with you about spaces between sentences, its just that you started talking about spacing words which I dont believe was ever discussed. Hence I am confued as to what your point was earlier.

cheers ITR

What did I say, can you copy and paste, please ?

I could mess it up....but wait, how could I mess my mother tongue language up ?

Edited November 28, 2006 by baennaenae

[In the Rai!]

We make Thai words single syllable when we type in English to make it easier for you guys to pronounce but not when we write in Thai

I've seen Thai handwritten with spaces between words (sometimes between syllables). Are these spaces something you are taught to eliminate? It's possible that the spaces appear because people recall the spelling word by word.

The only time I have ever seen spaces between words is in grade 1 text books or below. as soon as they hit grade 2 there are no more spaces. only between sentences.

baennaenae, I dont think anyone is disagreeing with you about spaces between sentences, its just that you started talking about spacing words which I dont believe was ever discussed. Hence I am confued as to what your point was earlier.

cheers ITR

What did I say, can you copy and paste, please ?

I could mess it up....but wait, how could I mess my mother tongue language up ?

I am not questioning your Thai ability, as you are Thai. You are typing in English and I am confused about your post (in English) thats all. Please dont take offence as was never my intention. This forum is about helping eachother and questioning each other at times when we dont understand.

Ourmanflint,

yes alot of words are made up of 2 words combined just as baennaenae advised. words like

คิด kit meaning to think

เห็น see

put them together and you have a completely different word

คิดเห็น kit hen (comment/discuss)

then put คิดเห็น kit hen (comment/discuss) plus ความ kwarm

ความคิดเห็น kwarm kit hen (opinion) different again

ITR

[baennaenae]

We make Thai words single syllable when we type in English to make it easier for you guys to pronounce but not when we write in Thai

I've seen Thai handwritten with spaces between words (sometimes between syllables). Are these spaces something you are taught to eliminate? It's possible that the spaces appear because people recall the spelling word by word.

The only time I have ever seen spaces between words is in grade 1 text books or below. as soon as they hit grade 2 there are no more spaces. only between sentences.

baennaenae, I dont think anyone is disagreeing with you about spaces between sentences, its just that you started talking about spacing words which I dont believe was ever discussed. Hence I am confued as to what your point was earlier.

cheers ITR

What did I say, can you copy and paste, please ?

I could mess it up....but wait, how could I mess my mother tongue language up ?

I am not questioning your Thai ability, as you are Thai. You are typing in English and I am confused about your post (in English) thats all. Please dont take offence as was never my intention. This forum is about helping eachother and questioning each other at times when we dont understand.

Ourmanflint,

yes alot of words are made up of 2 words combined just as baennaenae advised. words like

??? kit meaning to think

???? see

put them together and you have a completely different word

??????? kit hen (comment/discuss)

then put ??????? kit hen (comment/discuss) plus ???? kwarm

??????????? kwarm kit hen (opinion) different again

ITR

NO NO, It's cool... I didn't take offence but maybe the way I explained it in English is not quite clear which could confuse people including myself, too. I'm sorry for confusing you ( that yellow card is for Baen-nae-nae )

I am happy to help what I could and happy to learn

peace out peace out

[In the Rai!]

NO NO, It's cool... I didn't take offence but maybe the way I explained it in English is not quite clear which could confuse people including myself, too. I'm sorry for confusing you ( that yellow card is for Baen-nae-nae )

I am happy to help what I could and happy to learn

peace out peace out

Thats good to hear.

I really value your imput here. It is great to have Thais on here to help us with our questions..

cheers

ITR

[baennaenae]

ก = gor-gai (chicken)

ข = khor-khai (egg)

ฃ =khor-khuad (bottle)

ค = kor-kuaii (buffalo)

ต = kor-kon (a person)

39 letters to go

Edited November 28, 2006 by baennaenae

[Richard W]

ก = gor-gai (chicken)

ข = khor-khai (egg)

ฃ =khor-khuad (bottle)

ค = kor-kuaii (buffalo)

ต = kor-kon (a person)

Is that meant to confuse? If 'khor-khai' is correct, then it's 'khor-khon' throughout the land, and the buffalo word starts 'kh' throughout most of the land, even up North, where they might just say 'kor-kao-muang-toon' (= Siamese 'khor-khao-muang-thoon').

While ควาย does occur in Ruarueangsi's Northern Thai dictionay, it does say see ฅวาย. The joker is that ฅว changed to คว in Siamese, possibly before it was written, and certainly before the general merger of the sounds of ฅ and ค.

[baennaenae]

? = gor-gai (chicken)

? = khor-khai (egg)

? =khor-khuad (bottle)

? = kor-kuaii (buffalo)

? = kor-kon (a person)

Is that meant to confuse? If 'khor-khai' is correct, then it's 'khor-khon' throughout the land, and the buffalo word starts 'kh' throughout most of the land, even up North, where they might just say 'kor-kao-muang-toon' (= Siamese 'khor-khao-muang-thoon').

While ???? does occur in Ruarueangsi's Northern Thai dictionay, it does say see ????. The joker is that ?? changed to ?? in Siamese, possibly before it was written, and certainly before the general merger of the sounds of ? and ?.

That's why you need four skills to learn Thai - Reading, Writing, Speaking and Listening. because the khor-khai and the ko-kuaii have different sounds.

ททท

Edited November 29, 2006 by baennaenae

[baennaenae]

That's why you need four skills to learn Thai - Reading, Writing, Speaking and Listening. because the khor-khai and the ko-kuaii have different sounds.

ก pronounced กอ-ไก่ ( เสียงกลาง ) ( gor-gai )

ข pronounced ขอ-ไข่ ( เสียงสูง ) ( khor-khai )

ค pronounced คอ-ควาย ( เสียงต่ำ ) ( kor-kuaii )

The reason I use ' kh ' for khor-khai ( ข ), ' k ' for kor-kuaii ( ค ) and ' g ' for gor-gai ( ก ) instead of ' k ' for kor-kai ( ก ) is because just want to separate them. If you use ' k ' for ( ก ) iะ sounds more like kor-kaii ( ค ) instead of gor-gai ( ก )

It would be a lot easier if you get someone to pronounce ( ข ) and ( ค ) for you but you have to make sure that you hear the difference of the two letters. Then you would , hopefully, understand what I am trying to say. However, we use ' k ' and ' kh ' for both cases as we understand the context but it is hard to understand when foreigners use it because what I hear is the ' k ' ( ค ) one

สับสนกันปะ ? ( สับสนกันหรือเปล่า ? )

ไปละ !

Edited November 29, 2006 by baennaenae

[Richard W]

Ruarueangsi's

Correction: Rungrueangsi's.

That's why you need four skills to learn Thai - Reading, Writing, Speaking and Listening. because the khor-khai and the ko-kuaii have different sounds.

Plus Scepticism!

Would you care to explain then how the etymologically incorrect spellings แข้ง and ฆ่า have come to displace the etymologically correct แฅ่่ง and ฃ้้า? The latter are attested in the Sukhothai inscriptions. (Obviously แฅ่่ง and ฃ้้้า should have been replaced by แค่่่่ง and ข้า in Siamese.) I had always assumed it could happen because the Siamese pronuciation does not tell you which spelling is correct.

[baennaenae]

Ruarueangsi's

Correction: Rungrueangsi's.

That's why you need four skills to learn Thai - Reading, Writing, Speaking and Listening. because the khor-khai and the ko-kuaii have different sounds.

Plus Scepticism!

Would you care to explain then how the etymologically incorrect spellings ???? and ??? have come to displace the etymologically correct ????? and ????? The latter are attested in the Sukhothai inscriptions. (Obviously ????? and ????? should have been replaced by ??????? and ??? in Siamese.) I had always assumed it could happen because the Siamese pronuciation does not tell you which spelling is correct.

???

[baennaenae]

To be honest with you I don't know how and why and have come to displace the etymologically correct ???? and ??? When I was in grade 1, I was told that the " ฅ " and the " ฃ " don't exist in both spoken and written language and I had never have any interest to know. Though, it would be interesting to know the history of the Thai language to keep up with you guys !

The reason why แข้ง not แค่ง is because they have different meanings.

แข้ง can be หน้าแข้ง or ลำแข้ง while แค่ง is something else which I am not really sure what it means because it doesn't make sense to me and as far as I am concerned, it has no meaning but I might be wrong.

ข้า = ตัวข้า, ข้าพเจ้า ( I, me )

ค่า = ราคา

ฆ่า = kill

Thought you would typed " ...... should have been replaced by แค่ง and ค่า or แข้ง and ข้า . or either way.

By the way I don't know what แฅ่ง and ฃ้า mean What is the context ?

Edited November 29, 2006 by baennaenae

[baennaenae]

It is good to learn the history of the language but you learn the history of the Thai language to confuse yourselves. Hence, learning any language is not just about discussing the history of it in front of the screen and do copy and paste. I think it would be more useful if you can communicate with the natives. To me, the history doesn't always help you to communicate effectively at present time as the language changes but it would be an interesting topic in a conversation.

I wish I knew the history of the Thai langugage myself

Edited November 29, 2006 by baennaenae

[baennaenae]

Why do you bring up all the questions you have about the Thai language in here,while, you have such good resource?

ขอโทษ นะ ที่ถามน่ะ เราเพียงแต่สงสัย เท่านั้น

Edited November 29, 2006 by baennaenae

[samran]

Why do you bring up all the questions you have about the Thai language in here,while, you have such good resource?

ขอโทษ นะ ที่ถามน่ะ เราเพียงแต่สงสัย เท่านั้น

The questions most likely stem from the debates that go on amonst linguists regarding why there are (for example) exceptions to rules, the decline in the usage of words, etc etc. The resources are out there, but they can be contradictory, we are lucky to have experts here for example for whom their hobby or job is to study these things. So no need to สงสัย. Much need to อภิปราย and แลกความคิดเห็น

[baennaenae]

จ้า !

Edited November 29, 2006 by baennaenae

[Richard W]

By the way I don't know what แฅ่ง and ฃ้า mean.

They mean แข้ง 'shin' and ฆ่า 'kill' - or something very similar. I don't have the context - my source just says 'the Sukhothai inscription'.

The point I was making, for which I can also use the example of colloquial เค้า for the pronoun เขา, was that kho khai and kho khwai represent the same sound. The only difference is that different, overlapping sets of tones are used with them, and the rules relating tone to spelling are different.

[baennaenae]

By the way I don't know what ???? and ??? mean.

They mean ???? 'shin' and ??? 'kill' - or something very similar. I don't have the context - my source just says 'the Sukhothai inscription'.

The point I was making, for which I can also use the example of colloquial ???? for the pronoun ???, was that kho khai and kho khwai represent the same sound. The only difference is that different, overlapping sets of tones are used with them, and the rules relating tone to spelling are different.

???

[baennaenae]

Never knew that ( ข ) and ( ค ) represent the same sound. What about the ( t ) and the ( th ) in English, do they represent the same sound ?

We don't usually have the ( th ) sound, e .g Thai original word ( เธอ ) which pronounced ( เทอ ) means ( you, คุณ ) I agree that lots of " people " use both ' ter ' and ' ther ' .

Telll me... how would you say this word if you saw it for the first time ( WITHOUT CHECKING FROM THE SOURCE )

ธงชาติ = thong-chard

ถ = pronounced ' tthor ' is in the group of the ( ข )

ธ = pronounced ' tor ' is in the group of the ( ค )

ท = pronounced ' tor ' is in the group of the ( ค )

This case is the same as the ( ข ) and ( ค ) case

I think the problem here is because there aren't many English letters to distingush the sound when it comes to the Thai language . That's why we often stuck with the ' sound '

Edited November 29, 2006 by baennaenae

[baennaenae]

I have seen Andrew on the Thai TV Show a few times back home and I was amazed by him because his Thai langugage skills were unbelivable, I don't know if he is the same person with BKKANDREW in here. Would help if you could find him and talk to him

[Richard W]

Never knew that ( ข ) and ( ค ) represent the same sound. What about the ( t ) and the ( th ) in English, do they represent the same sound ?

Can do, though not usually. In a few words 'th' does represent the same sound as 't', e.g. Thames, thyme, Thai, Thomas, Anthony, though there is some variation in the last word.

We don't usually have the ( th ) sound, e .g Thai original word ( เธอ ) which pronounced ( เทอ ) means ( you, คุณ ) I agree that lots of " people " use both ' ter ' and ' ther ' .

In the Greek alphabet, 'T' represented the sound of Thai ต and 'TH' represented the sound of Thai ถ and ท, and the Romans continued this system, while the Greek found another, single letter to represent the sound of ถ and ท. Then this Greek sound changed, to be like the 'th' in English 'think'. Ever since then, the combination 'th' has represented two different sounds in foreign words. It then gets complicated, because, so far as I am aware, no European language contrasts the sounds of ต on one hand and modern Thai ถ and ท on the other.

Telll me... how would you say this word if you saw it for the first time ( WITHOUT CHECKING FROM THE SOURCE )

ธงชาติ = thong-chard

I'm not sure of your point, but the nearest (British) English equivalents for the two syllables are English 'tong' and 'chart'. English 'tongue' might be a good approximation to the first syllable in some English accents. The forum's careful style would be to write [M]thong[F]chaat.

ถ = pronounced ' tthor ' is in the group of the ( ข )

'high tone class', position 2 of the varga.

ธ = pronounced ' tor ' is in the group of the ( ค )

'low tone class', but different positions in the varga.

ท = pronounced ' tor ' is in the group of the ( ค )

'low tone class', position 3 in the varga.

This case is the same as the ( ข ) and ( ค ) case

Yes.

I think the problem here is because there aren't many English letters to distingush the sound when it comes to the Thai language . That's why we often stuck with the ' sound '

Not in this case. You're trying to include tone class in the sound of the consonant, but since the sound of live syllables with high consonants and mai tho merged with the sound of syllables with low consonants and mai ek, it's definitely been wrong to include it in the sound of the consonant. I'd like to say since Thai became a five tone language, but at least one dialect (U Thong) is reported to have three different tones for live syllables with no tone mark - one for low consonants, one for mid consonants, and one for high consonants, giving it a total of six tones.

In general, it would be more convenient if all browsers would display IPA characters without special instructions. There are translations of IPA to ordinary letters - I use the X-SAMPA translation when I need to translate. The 'forum's careful style', elaborated from the RTGS, is good enough for Standard Thai.

[Rikker]

Never knew that ( ข ) and ( ค ) represent the same sound. What about the ( t ) and the ( th ) in English, do they represent the same sound ?

Your conflating the written and spoken language here... orthographic {t} might be pronounced phonetically [t] or [th] in English (i.e. similar to either ต/ฏ or else ท/ถ/ธ/ฒ/ฑ/ฐ) depending on the word. If it's in "stop" the t is inaspirate. If it's in "top" it's aspirate.

Likewise, orthographic {th} might be either phonetic [th] or [θ] or [ð] depending on the word. Only the first of these has a corresponding sound in Thai, and "Thai" happens to be one of the words in which orthographic {th} represents the phonetic sound [th]. Then there are words like "think," which is the sound [θ], and words like "the," which is the sound [ð].

Tone falls into the realm of "suprasegmental" features of the spoken language. Regardless of whether it's ข ค ฃ ฅ or ฆ, they are all phonetically [kh], aspirate velar stop. The tone is independent of that, and the orthography doesn't change the phonetic quality either.

[In the Rai!]

In general, it would be more convenient if all browsers would display IPA characters without special instructions. There are translations of IPA to ordinary letters - I use the X-SAMPA translation when I need to translate. The 'forum's careful style', elaborated from the RTGS, is good enough for Standard Thai.

Hi Richard, what is the X-Sampa you talk of?

I admit I have learnt Thai characters and havent really ever concentrated on the English characters, as I learnt to read and write(slowly) from day 1. Now I can read and write It would be good to learn the English characters especially to keep it consistant on this forum as I find it hard to read some peoples English translation as they would find it hard to read mine.

Any help on the best way would be appreciated.

ITR

[Rikker]

Oh, goodness.. I made a your/you're error. How silly of me!

[In the Rai!]

Oh, goodness.. I made a your/you're error. How silly of me!

????????

[Richard W]

Hi Richard, what is the X-Sampa you talk of?

See the original definition.