Living offgrid with small solar system(s)

[Crossy]

Volts and Amps George.

It may be a 1W LED, but that doesn't mean it will be using 1 Watt.

A 1 Watt LED has a MAXIMUM dissipation of 1 Watt. Actually if you drove that one at 1 Watt it would die pretty quickly without a heatsink.

How long does that run for, could be a compact power source.

[George Harmony]

Voltage = 2.4-2.7

Amps ???........my mm not yet done.

As long as i drip with tapwater it burns. Brighter with more cells.

There is a guy who made cells with magnesium and carbon rods. Electrolyte is salt/seawater. Bright led(s) and low voltage fan always run if he continue to refresh the electrolyte. One negative thing is that saltwater "eat" the rods faster. With only tapwater and air hopefully last longer.

I will try to achieve what he did only with medelis cells. Then i have achievend my 1st goal: Lightenup a bright led(s) and run a low voltage fan.

@crossy and others,

As posted b4, as soon as i think i have achived my goal i will update you all with full details, voltages, amps before and after load and estimated lifetime of the used carbon ribbon. I promise.

Edited June 21, 2016 by George Harmony

[Crossy]

G. Volts without Amps means nothing, nada, zero, zip, sod all.

Just measure the LED current and I'll shut the xxxx up.

2.7V is quite low for a white LED.

I'm afraid you are deluding yourself as to the amount of energy available from these simple cells.

[George Harmony]

1 cell gives abt 1.2 volt. 4 cells give abt 3.5v. With led burning around 2.7v.

I just added 1 more cell it shines brighter. Did not measure anything. Tomorrow i will try a 3watt led with joule thief.

[Muhendis]

George, I'm not quite sure your meaning "together with a copper electrical wire partly insulated".

Surely you mean solder/connect to the rod with copper wire as above??

As long as the wire make contact with the carbon.

If you mean the "medelis battery" with magnesium ribbon i replicated yesterday and it works perfect. Just made 2 new ones. Amazing. Just use a little bit magnesium ribbon and you have a 1-1.2 volt tiny battery. Will make as much as possible and connect in series and parallel.

For comparison of the size i made a pict with a pack of cigarette. 4 of them light up a led and lets see how many i need to charge my hp and/or burn a 3 watt usb lamp with or without joule thief. Magnesium ribbon i can buy here for abt 2.6 usd per meter.

Big question is, how long does it (=mag ribbon) last if one use such battery daily. The electrolyte is only tap water.

Ok I understand just connect to carbon. So basic.

Yes it was the Medelis battery with 2000 turns of cotton thread. Why not simply wrap in cotton rag?

Q--- What sort of shops do you have there that sell Magnesium ribbon?

I remember burning it in the chem lab at high school.

Some high powered fireworks had white powdered magnesium in the gunpowder.

Reckon you would have looked for the cheapest source of it.

Seems like you can buy powdered/granular magnesium.

Q--- The so-called mag wheels for cars will surely be an aluminium /magnesium compound/alloy?

Hey guys-- whats a good hack for magnesium?

I don't know if you have Lazada in Australia but here's their web page in Thailand.

http://www.lazada.co.th/catalog/?q=Magnesium+ribbon

[Muhendis]

George. If you want to make the LEDs brighter then try making the water dirtier first. The amount of power from the "battery" is, as I'm sure you now know, dependant on the availability of ions in the electrolyte. Deionised water has no ions (strange but true) and so lacks any ability to carry electrons between anode and cathode plates. As has been mentioned some time ago there is some depletion of the electrodes which is accelerated as the current is increased. The trick is to arrange your cell to have the maximum number of available ions for the minimum electrode depletion. There is a further consideration and that is the loading on the cell. The ions carry the electrons from one electrode to the other through the electrolyte (that's the water). So one electrode has lots of electrons and the other doesn't. when you connect your LED to the cell, the electrons will gallop as quick as they can from one electrode to the other. If there are plenty of ions available in the water, then millions of electrons will be transported to the other electrode to go once again into gallop mode. There are two bottlenecks which will affect this wonderful life changing event. The first is the load/LED and the second is the availability of ions in the water. Read the specifications of your LED to determine the required voltage and current for nominal brightness and long life then, and for you George this is the really tricky part, measure the current and voltage of your battery with the LED connected. You can adjust the dirtiness of the water (by adding salt if you like) until the current is at the nominal according to the LED spec.The final stage of this strenuous activity is to relax in your hammock with a cool beer/whisky/wine/water or cup of tea. Throw the dregs at the cell for more light............

[George Harmony]

Yes @MUhendis, spot on ??

[George Harmony]

The posted examples are only experiments. I will ofcourse also experiment with bigger/larger/wider anodes and/or cathodes and more volume electrolytes to achieve more current.

What amazed me is that the medelis battery only uses carbon ribbon and (electrical) wires......... They have also another version with copper plates and carbon ribbon but what i replicated uses only carbon ribbon and it works. Let me try to make one 20-30cm long...see what happens ..... (+thicker wires/cables)

Edited June 21, 2016 by George Harmony

[Muhendis]

You guys should take a look at what's happening in the world of batteries. Even Georges water cells get a mention.......http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/130380-future-batteries-coming-soon-charge-in-seconds-last-months-and-power-over-the-air

[George Harmony]

@muhendis, I think graphene will make it. How about if soon everybody can make their own supercapacitors with a diy open source package ???

Till then more experiments with waterbatteries and later also with graphene.

Led with icetray is still burning continiously.

3 experiments going on now.

@crossy, about heatsinks. Im prepared. I hope soon to lightup the roundshape with some leds and preinstalled heatsink. I already tried this afternoon, only able to burn 2 leds out of 6, rather bright.

Edited June 21, 2016 by George Harmony

[IMHO]

You guys should take a look at what's happening in the world of batteries. Even Georges water cells get a mention.......http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/130380-future-batteries-coming-soon-charge-in-seconds-last-months-and-power-over-the-air

Oh great, so now the energy companies are going to destroy the world's forests by making them into grid storage?

Bioo offers two to three charges per day at 3.5V and 0.5A via a USB port that's cleverly disguised as a rock. The pot uses organic materials that react with the water and organic matter from the plant's photosynthesising. This creates a reaction that generates enough power to charge gadgets.

This is just the start, imagine entire forests harnessed in this way. Not only could cities be powered with 100 per cent green energy but there could be yet another reason to protect plants and trees.

[Muhendis]

You guys should take a look at what's happening in the world of batteries. Even Georges water cells get a mention.......http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/130380-future-batteries-coming-soon-charge-in-seconds-last-months-and-power-over-the-air

Oh great, so now the energy companies are going to destroy the world's forests by making them into grid storage?

Bioo offers two to three charges per day at 3.5V and 0.5A via a USB port that's cleverly disguised as a rock. The pot uses organic materials that react with the water and organic matter from the plant's photosynthesising. This creates a reaction that generates enough power to charge gadgets.

This is just the start, imagine entire forests harnessed in this way. Not only could cities be powered with 100 per cent green energy but there could be yet another reason to protect plants and trees.

Hang on a minute. I'm just going to pop into the jungle to recharge my tablet.

Of greater concern is the trend towards batteries that outlast the gadget which they are powering. Nothing wrong with that except that the commercial aspect of this is quite likely going to be scary because although the batteries will be cheap enough to manufacture, the markup on them will need to be sufficient to keep the battery company in business. There will be little if any replacement of worn out batteries.

[Crossy]

George. It is time for you to learn how to drive LEDs properly, if you're going to try anything over the baby 24mA ones.

LEDs are current operated devices rather than voltage operated like conventional lamps. This means that they have an essentially constant forward voltage when operating, increasing the current makes them brighter. The upshot of this is that if you connect your LED to a voltage source (battery) and don't control the drive current in some way you will over-dissipate and rapidly destroy your LED (yes, even if it's on a heatsink).

This is why I harp on about measuring the current, the voltage really means nothing other than having to be high enough to overcome the forward drop of the device.

Up until now your cells have had sufficient internal resistance to keep the current at safe levels. Up to about a Watt you can use a simple resistor, but it's awfully inefficient, anything bigger WILL need a proper electronic driver if it's to achieve its rated output and live more than a few seconds.

I doubt you could build one, but there are plenty of rather clever units on aliExpress for pretty nominal costs.

By the way, just lighting a 1W LED does NOT mean it's emitting 1W of light. I have some 1W LEDs that light up with my multimeter on the diode test range, test current is 10mA (so the power is about 30mW (0.03 Watts) 3% of the 1W LEDs rated output).

To properly light a 1W white LED you'll need about 3.2V @ 350mA.

PLEASE learn to measure current and understand how to calculate power, you know it makes sense

[IMHO]

You guys should take a look at what's happening in the world of batteries. Even Georges water cells get a mention.......http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/130380-future-batteries-coming-soon-charge-in-seconds-last-months-and-power-over-the-air

Oh great, so now the energy companies are going to destroy the world's forests by making them into grid storage?

Bioo offers two to three charges per day at 3.5V and 0.5A via a USB port that's cleverly disguised as a rock. The pot uses organic materials that react with the water and organic matter from the plant's photosynthesising. This creates a reaction that generates enough power to charge gadgets.

This is just the start, imagine entire forests harnessed in this way. Not only could cities be powered with 100 per cent green energy but there could be yet another reason to protect plants and trees.

Hang on a minute. I'm just going to pop into the jungle to recharge my tablet.

Of greater concern is the trend towards batteries that outlast the gadget which they are powering. Nothing wrong with that except that the commercial aspect of this is quite likely going to be scary because although the batteries will be cheap enough to manufacture, the markup on them will need to be sufficient to keep the battery company in business. There will be little if any replacement of worn out batteries.

Given the seemingly short lifespan of tech gadgets and people's hunger to upgrade them- often for little to no benefit - it probably won't be that much of an issue

[George Harmony]

Again double post. Is my internet slow or thai visa too bussy

Edited June 22, 2016 by George Harmony

[George Harmony]

About the voltage and current i can follow you. About needing led drivers puzzles me.......

This is inside a 5watt usb lamp. I ordered ready made 3 watts one. Only must solder wires. Why i need led drivers??

If i have enough voltage and current i just plug it in.

Also its for me easy to make joule thief and hope to achieve the same as the pinoy SALTlamp. I think in that lamp is also a joule thief.

As said before my goal is to achieve at least 50mA and 4-6volt enabling me to run a fan and a bright lamp, like the seawater example i posted b4. I also think with the different kind of diy batteries its not so difficult to achieve this. BUT, how to make a compact one, one with a design like the SaltLamp and other commercial products, small and easy to carry and easy to refresh electrolyte.

Ps: Did you all ever see that saltwater race car toy?? Brilliant compact design with the possibility to easy adding electrolyte.

Edited June 22, 2016 by George Harmony

[KonaRain]

I have a huge forest, and not a lot of money for a honda generator. I like the carbon tubes! And thanks for the links.. Keep up the good work!

Can I clip on to the ginger and ferns?

The ginger is wet..

Aloha

[KonaRain]

I showed these to my inventor friend,and he suggested get capacitors involved, safely as Im sure You Guys understand..

I may find a way to use my forest..

Thanks for da links..

[Crossy]

About the voltage and current i can follow you. About needing led drivers puzzles me.......

This is inside a 5watt usb lamp. I ordered ready made 3 watts one. Only must solder wires. Why i need led drivers??

If i have enough voltage and current i just plug it in.

G. See those little black things with numbers on near the LEDs?

What do you think they are? What do they do?

EDIT The answer is in one of my earlier posts.

EDIT 2 Have you learned about the relationship between voltage, current and resistance (Ohm's Law) yet?

[George Harmony]

the markup on them will need to be sufficient to keep the battery company in business

I hope that someone dare to launch a lifetime battery chargeable with only water and/or waste of packaging. If i buy tea the package contains aluminium foil/paper. So, many many other products.

Found an old antena. Ripped of some pieces. Made 5 cells. Did not measure anything YET but the surface is bigger than an icecube. The 1watt led shines very very bright.

Yes, i know: Measure current. Ill do it for sure when i can lightup a usb lamp anf when my MM is done.

[George Harmony]

I can understand this easy:

The formula to calculate resistance in a circuit is: R=V/I or, more relevant to what we're doing:

(Source Volts - LED Volts) / (Current / 1000) = Resistance*

So if we have a 12v battery powering a 3.5V 25mA LED our formula becomes:

(12 - 3.5) / (25 / 1000) = 340ohms.

If you are looking for resistors for above calculation you hardly cant find it. 390 they is more common.

Such a circuit with heatsink like that usb lamp is not so difficult to make. If you call that a led driver its ok.

[Muhendis]

IMHO I agree with your comment "Given the seemingly short lifespan of tech gadgets and people's hunger to upgrade them- often for little to no benefit - it probably won't be that much of an issue " I also had in mind larger products like car batteries, PV storage, electric automobiles and grid storage to say nothing of the millions of warehouse forklift trucks. All these applications regularly replace their batteries and keep the battery manufacturers and distributors busy. What would be the scenario if the batteries all came with a 200,000 cycle life expectancy?

Edited June 22, 2016 by Muhendis

[Muhendis]

I can understand this easy:

The formula to calculate resistance in a circuit is: R=V/I or, more relevant to what we're doing:

(Source Volts - LED Volts) / (Current / 1000) = Resistance*

So if we have a 12v battery powering a 3.5V 25mA LED our formula becomes:

(12 - 3.5) / (25 / 1000) = 340ohms.

If you are looking for resistors for above calculation you hardly cant find it. 390 they is more common.

Such a circuit with heatsink like that usb lamp is not so difficult to make. If you call that a led driver its ok.

That's fine for a constant voltage source like the USB output from your computer. But what if the voltage changes as it will when using a battery and the the battery is being discharged. You would be better off using a dc-dc converter to work over the anticipated voltage range of your battery.

[George Harmony]

@muhendis...spot on again ??

These diy batteries are unreliable. I was thinking of making a strong battery with much bigger capacity and a step-down-module (or diodes) in between and not stepup-down module. But thats are later worries. Lets find out first which materials are the most effective (and cheap) to use prefarably only with (tap)water.

For example: Just added bit of cleaning fluid. Led shines more bright. But if i make more cells only with water i think i can achieve the same voltage and current.

[Crossy]

I can understand this easy:

The formula to calculate resistance in a circuit is: R=V/I or, more relevant to what we're doing:

(Source Volts - LED Volts) / (Current / 1000) = Resistance*

So if we have a 12v battery powering a 3.5V 25mA LED our formula becomes:

(12 - 3.5) / (25 / 1000) = 340ohms.

If you are looking for resistors for above calculation you hardly cant find it. 390 they is more common.

Such a circuit with heatsink like that usb lamp is not so difficult to make. If you call that a led driver its ok.

Good, now do it for the 1Watt LED I used as an example earlier. Calculate the power dissipated (i.e. wasted) in the resistor.

Then you should understand why an electronic driver is much better.

No, I don't call using a resistor an LED driver, I call it wasting our precious energy. Why not work out the power dissipated in the 25mA LED and compare it with the power dissipated by the current limiting resistor? Do you think it is sensible usage of the minute amounts of power you are generating?

[George Harmony]

Ladies and gentlemen,

With only 2 cells of another type/replicated diy battery i nearly achieve my goal. Lightup a 3 watt led with a simple youle thief without toroid with 2 quickly made cells, cans not yet sanded and still a mess, but the led shines bright. I did not do any measurements. Will do later when my MM is done.

Must say i put saltwater in. Will experiment more with only (tap)water.

Did the same with a full AA-battery and could not see the difference of the brightness.

[Crossy]

G.

Make the measurements. Do it at the battery not the LED this time, the output waveform from the joule thief may confuse your meter.

Make the same measurements driving it with your AA battery. This result you can use as a repeatable datum against which you can compare your other results. Keep the same joule thief and LED so you only change one variable (the battery).

Post the circuit of the joule thief.

Which battery chemistry are you using this time?

EDIT Please post photos of your meter making the measurements, from previous posts I'm not convinced you really know how to use it. Prove me wrong

[George Harmony]

I replicated this one. But he uses more copper and i dont know what kind of sand. I just use the white sand which workers mixed with cement.

I was surprised that he could run a usb fan. So i immediately replicate it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_1Fr2GgqT70

Ps: I make closeup pict of my joule thief and will measure tonight. Must go now. Thanks for all your support @crossy and all others.

[George Harmony]

This = the joule thief + 3watt led

[Crossy]

Got a circuit G. ?

With no inductor how does it work?