Living offgrid with small solar system(s)

[Muhendis]

George. That USB module seems to be great for the job but it's not the one shown in your earlier picture. I'm pleased to see you are studying at the battery university. Your information is, of course spot on. Now. Have you measured your salt water battery capabilities yet? (Amps. Volts. Life expectancy) The whole of Thaivisa is waiting with baited breath..............

[George Harmony]

Not yet.

i soon will try again with (salt)water batteries.

 

above pict (one post b4 the balinese pict frame) is using the usb module with controlled output.

 

for charging 18650 batteries with a 12v panel i use this one:

 

[George Harmony]

charging in action also connecting to a usb charge doctor.

 

soon its time to charge with (salt)water batteries.

[George Harmony]

to be more specific:

there is usb charger which gives constant 4.2v to the battery and cutt-off if the battery reaches 4.2v

 

then there is an output module from 3.7v to 5volt in my case to be used for a usb lightbulb 5 or 7watt.

 

this diagram is for 6v solar panel. When using 12v panel the above posted step down module with voltmeter is ofcourse installed before the charging module.

 

all very simple, effective and cheap

[George Harmony]

i ordered this clock to see how a commercial version designs such a product. A (tap)water powered clock, ofcourse very low voltage.

 

lets try to make our own soon to charge for example a 18650 li-ion

[Jing Joe]

On 23/09/2016 at 7:27 PM, Muhendis said:

Good to see you are still of this world Jing Joe. How have you arranged your panels and will you be charging batteries for night time power?

Like old friends M.    :-)   Six groups of 3 panels. Producing about 90V each group. Midnite classic 150 controller. Brilliant.  Saw 90A at 56V (yes battery) the other day.  Bit bigger than George's experimenting with 18650 Lithium batteries,  but that is interesting too. 

I ordered 20 recently on line but VERY suspicious about their stated MaH capacities.

Discovered there are some terrible liars among the advertisers.  Will use for torches and in the bank of 5 holder device for battery backup to charge tablets and phones etc. The sixth position in the device was space for a PCB charging regulator I think.    USB in and USB out sockets.

[Muhendis]

20 hours ago, Jing Joe said:

Discovered there are some terrible liars among the advertisers.

What?!

Never...........

I had a quick look at the Midnite classic 150 controller. What an ugly looking thing that is. It puts me in mind of art deco radio's of the late fifties. I notice they are not available outside the Americas. How did you manage to get it in Australia?

[George Harmony]

about 18650 batteries. There is a guy on youtube who found a way to detect fakes ones. Just weight that battery. Must at least be around 43gram according to him.

[George Harmony]

And here is a extensive review of the charger modules which I use  TP4056  with battery battery component. 

Very interesting if you want to make your own charger (and cheap)

 

 

[George Harmony]

@jingjoe,

if you work with 18650 batteries (flat ones) its easy to make a mistake with the plus and minus. I blew two modules cause of the reverse polarity. Now trying to make some kind of protection for this and ordered some mofsets.

 

http://www.instructables.com/id/Reverse-polarity-protection-for-your-circuit-with/

 

[KonaRain]

Vanadium flow battery, works down to zero charge with no damage. Just build a tank and fill it with ? fluid..
So they say..easy to Google
Aloha

[Jing Joe]

On 26/09/2016 at 1:35 PM, Muhendis said:

What?!

Never...........

I had a quick look at the Midnite classic 150 controller. What an ugly looking thing that is. It puts me in mind of art deco radio's of the late fifties. I notice they are not available outside the Americas. How did you manage to get it in Australia?

Too easy M.    Sure it is unusual looking but it is half the price of some of the best Oz controllers and many times better.  It is VERY much a case of "don't judge this book by its cover".  

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Classic-150-MPPT-Charge-Controller-Regulator-150V-96A-Made-in-USA-Midnite-Solar-/251965944270?hash=item3aaa5731ce:g:NtMAAOSwEeFVFBhW

Edited October 1, 2016 by Jing Joe
forgot to add that I had seen one supplier that didnt ship to Oz

[Jing Joe]

Hi Guys

Interesting combination of lead acid and super caps in new manufacture.

I'm guessing they will be flat out competing against Lithium.??

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-27/new-generation-acid-lead-ultrabattery-for-off-grid-renewable-use/7881656?WT.mc_id=newsmail

[Jing Joe]

There's even more exciting news about lithium batteries.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-03/demand-for-lithium-batteries-driving-technology-developments/5935472

[George Harmony]

On ‎1‎-‎10‎-‎2016 at 5:46 PM, Jing Joe said:

There's even more exciting news about lithium batteries.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-03/demand-for-lithium-batteries-driving-technology-developments/5935472

very interesting @jingjoe.

How does UltraBattery® differ from normal lead-acid battery?

A normal lead-acid battery does not contain an ultracapacitor (also known as a supercapacitor), which is an electrical component that can store a high level of charge. The combination of the ultracapacitor in UltraBattery® with the battery chemistry, all in a single electrolyte, results in a hybrid device which can be charged very quickly, and can be charged and discharged many more times than a normal lead-acid battery.

http://www.ultrabattery.com/technology/ultrabattery-technology/

 

very very interesting Jingjoe

[Jing Joe]

On 03/10/2016 at 9:05 PM, George Harmony said:

very interesting @jingjoe.

 

 

http://www.ultrabattery.com/technology/ultrabattery-technology/

 

very very interesting Jingjoe

Wow George I hadn't looked much at the article, just knew they were on to something and if they go ahead, it will give Lithium some competition.

There's no second thoughts/rethink in this forum about the unusual looks but incredible technical capabilities of the Midnite controllers.  The guys might be asleep like I have been. Actually very busy installing lots of solar panels my roof and amazed to regularly see 60A at 56V coming in on good days and 15A even during rain. But this is small to other home installations.

Have you finished your up to now extensive research into salt water batteries?

 

[Muhendis]

That ultra battery technology has been around for some time but like many other discoveries it's been waiting for an application. I guess that time is now approaching for stationary systems (solar, wind etc.).  It will not make an impact on the EV market because it is lead acid which is heavy.

It's a bit of a misnomer to call it a battery with a super capacitor added. What has been done is to dope the negative electrode with a percentage of carbon. This has the effect of reducing the propensity to sulphate and therefore extends the life of the FLA considerably. The chemical reaction is not yet understood but it works just fine. More information here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UltraBattery

Trying to get hold of some for the home installation is difficult because I think the manufacturers are targeting the utility producers. There seem to be two companies manufacturing at the moment, one of which is in Australia the other being FB in Japan. So Jing Joe, if you would like to pop along to the place in your country where they are making them perhaps you could put in a good word for me?

Edited October 7, 2016 by Muhendis
spelling error

[Jing Joe]

5 hours ago, Muhendis said:

That ultra battery technology has been around for some time but like many other discoveries it's been waiting for an application. I guess that time is now approaching for stationary systems (solar, wind etc.).  It will not make an impact on the EV market because it is lead acid which is heavy.

It's a bit of a misnomer to call it a battery with a super capacitor added. What has been done is to dope the negative electrode with a percentage of carbon. This has the effect of reducing the propensity to sulphate and therefore extends the life of the FLA considerably. The chemical reaction is not yet understood but it works just fine. More information here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UltraBattery

Trying to get hold of some for the home installation is difficult because I think the manufacturers are targeting the utility producers. There seem to be two companies manufacturing at the moment, one of which is in Australia the other being FB in Japan. So Jing Joe, if you would like to pop along to the place in your country where they are making them perhaps you could put in a good word for me?

Anything for you M. :-)   but it will be many days before I try out of curiosity where they  are hiding.  If they became a worthwhile proposition, where in the world are you M ?

[Jing Joe]

George, your saltwater battery lights R&D could be great for village life in Kenya too.

Just read an article about their drinking water challenge and how difficult to make safe their poor quality water.

Their forests are down to about 5% so is difficult to get firewood to boil it.

With all the open minds and great input here, what possibilities are there? Not really suggesting salt water batteries though.  In this article they discuss carbon filtering.   

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2016/10/08/carbon-for-water.aspx?utm_source=dnl&utm_medium=email&utm_content=art1&utm_campaign=20161008Z1&et_cid=DM124112&et_rid=1701878706

 

[Muhendis]

I was rummaging around in Science Daily earlier and stumbled across this (attached file). It should be good for powering villages where there is both salt and fresh water available. Of course you would need access to a bit of charging and a few bits of appropriate metal but it seemingly defies the laws of physics by giving you back more than you put in.

Salt Water Battery.doc

[Jing Joe]

On 09/10/2016 at 2:54 PM, Muhendis said:

I was rummaging around in Science Daily earlier and stumbled across this (attached file). It should be good for powering villages where there is both salt and fresh water available. Of course you would need access to a bit of charging and a few bits of appropriate metal but it seemingly defies the laws of physics by giving you back more than you put in.

Salt Water Battery.doc

Good article M

so George's interest in this subject could be extended to the production of megawatts?

If only a connection (not electrical :-)   ) could be made between those who need the power for cooking and boiling water could be made.

[Muhendis]

I think Georges interest is going in the right direction already. His inspired thinking was to create enough energy for lighting and a fan and no more. Well I have to say I do like his idea. My thinking is still in the days of the incandescent light bulb and a house full of 240 Vac.

[Muhendis]

Here is a link that is dear to my heart. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161007120518.htm I have to say that some of the UK beers I have tasted might well have been the remnants of the final brew, but this seems a better application of recycling. It also means secured supply of the final brew.

 

Lets drink to that

[Jing Joe]

Just dropped bye to discover the latest and seems Muhendis had the last word a month ago with "lets drink to that".  

Well done George after starting such an interesting topic lasting so far 1613 posts.

Will drop you a personal email regardless.

The 18 x 250W panels I installed a month or so ago give me power to burn.

Soon to install another 18 x 250W panels and a big air-con going in very soon.

 

This will nicely cool in the summer months ahead and looking forward to nice warmth next winter.

 

 

[Naam]

54 minutes ago, Jing Joe said:

Well done George after starting such an interesting topic...

it looks now he was kidnapped by a jewel thief who got p*ssed off because he did not find any jewels in George's house but only some measly joules.

[Jing Joe]

1 hour ago, Naam said:

it looks now he was kidnapped by a jewel thief who got p*ssed off because he did not find any jewels in George's house but only some measly joules.

And left a bitter taste of salt water in his mouth.

Jokes aside---  Hi to you Naam.       Did Redflow batteries get mentioned during the weeks I didn't look at this forum?

Rather remarkable batteries.   

What's news Naam?  are you still avoiding drinking anything with water that you told us about.  :-) 

 

https://onestepoffthegrid.com.au/redflow-launches-10kwh-zcell-into-australian-home-battery-storage-market/

 

[Naam]

55 minutes ago, Jing Joe said:

What's news Naam?

i've lost this year 20.7kg (from 97.0 to 76.3) and have only 1.3kg to go to reach my target of 75. initially i wanted to see the "7" on the scale but i'm very happy to reach my "fighting weight" again (height 1.80). no saltwater batteries in my house but since several months three voltage stabilisers each 20KVA which have been active only twice for less than 30 minutes each time.

[Muhendis]

Hi Naam and Joe. Good to see you are still around.

 

I am still working on my DIY wind turbine but running a small farm tends to get in the way of other hobbies a bit. If anyone knows of a solar device for removing weeds please let me know. I have modified my ideas a bit and will be going for the VAWT design rather than the HAWT. Efficiency is not so good but my generator is a bit cumbersome and I would be nervous at having such a big weight high up on the end of a pole. The VAWT would also be easier from an assembly and maintenance point of view.  http://icewind.is/en/

 

I will be changing my FLA batteries some time soon. All the reasons not to go for the lead acid are coming back to haunt me.  I still have a large number of VRLA's in storage (pun intended). When the VRLA's become used up I am hoping some of the new technologies will have matured enough to be affordable. Redflow did not yet get a mention so I have had a quick look at the Redflow information and my initial thoughts are that it is an interesting system well suited to my application. 

 

Thanks for that Joe. I will be making further enquiries after I've done a bit more reading.

 

Naam I'm sorry you lost 20.7kg. Never mind. I expect if you look carefully you will find it again one day.

 

All of those low voltage ideas from George are very useful and are a practical solution for remote areas where a few lights and a fan are needed. 

[Muhendis]

Further thoughts on Redflow:

I've had a read through the specs. and the installation manual for these batteries and here are my observations. 

The system works in a similar fashion to the vanadium flow battery. You pass a fluid through the cell and a current is generated from ionic transfer (simply put). In this case the fluid is zinc bromide and the zinc is the active component. The zinc is plated onto a plastic membrane during charge and back into solution during discharge. The battery is not sensitive to degradation due to partial charge and discharge and so is well suited to solar charging applications. At 240kg for the standard 200Ahr 48v battery it is not light, but that could also be said about lead acid batteries. Physically it is small enough for direct replacement of a 200Ahr 48v lead acid battery. It can be discharge to 100% and does not suffer any ill effects although the discharge rate is best at C5. The down side for me is it's efficiency. At 80% you have to ask where the other 20% is going. The answer to that is, it gets hot. 2.4Kw. In an ambient of 25 - 30 degrees that is not a problem and fan circulation will take care of it but my feeling is that at 40+ degrees a dedicated air conditioned and well ventilated environment is a must. Well ventilated is required because the thing can give off hydrogen if things go wrong. I don't yet know the cost of the battery but the cost for me of a special air conditioned enclosure would need to be added. There is also a quirky system that requires a regular self maintenance cycle and to do that a separate supply is needed because the battery will be disconnected from the electronic control system at that time.

[George Harmony]

Interesting posts. Thanks Muhendis and JingJoe. 

I have to apologize cause i'm still busy with other things but also do some experiments with small li-ion batteries.  Bought some cheap powerbank casings and it works fine.

 

Its still my intention to charge batteries with (salt)water batteries. Will keep you informed. Till then.

 

ps: pitty that this usb tube is not available :