David Smyth's Teach Yourself Thai

[BethanyGrace]

Hi, I am just considering starting to learn Thai with a colleague.

He has the refined German translation of Teach Yourself Thai by David Smyth (Published by Hodder Education, 2010)--with audio/CDs--, since German is his first language.

I am looking for the equivalent English version, but the closest I can find is this 2011 version: http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Thai-Two-Audio-CDs/dp/0071750495

There is one discrepancy. The English description says the book has 24 chapters. The German book only as 17 chapters.

1. Does anyone know if these books are basically the same? If not, where can I find a closer version?

2. Has anyone tried this course? Is it any good? Or would you recommend a different course.

Thanks very much!

Bethany

[Seligne2]

I have seen the Smyth book (don't recall seeing any CDs) in several bookstores. Never bought it because it is outrageously priced. I think I saw it at Asia Books. Try their website. There you can do an online search.

[BethanyGrace]

Thanks

[loong]

I bought this book around year 2000. The version I have is only 15 chapters, so it has obviously been updated/added to since then.

I found it to be very good and gives an excellent grounding in the Thai language. Other books I looked at were nowhere near as good and too heavy going for a beginner or just too simple. The best thing about the book, in my opinion, is the way it introduces written Thai. Learning to read some Thai really helps with pronunciation when looking up words in a dictionary. I also like the transliteration. I prefer to see "go" written as bpai instead of the standard pai. money as dtung, not tung

[CaptHaddock]

Did you ever meet anyone who taught himself Thai? Me neither.

[manchesterlalala]

Did you ever meet anyone who taught himself Thai? Me neither.

I taught myself Thai. And this book played a huge part in my development.

I never learned Thai in a school environment. Never had a teacher. I read the book over and over (until the pages were falling out!); and I listened to the CDs.

I started learning with this book when I was back in England, and it was nice to have an introduction to the language before my arrival at Swampy. But my speaking and listening abilities obviously underwent major improvement through moving here and living in Thailand – all the while using the book as a reference.

My book was a 2004/2005 version bought from Waterstones in Manchester. I remember it being dear even then, but it was well worth it. The great thing about Smyth's book is that it is designed to get you reading Thai from the get-go. The dialogue situations are realistic ones you will encounter in Thailand, and I found them to be much more practical than other methods and reading/listening texts employed by other books – such as the Benjawan Poomsan Becker books.

I can highly recommend it.

[CaptHaddock]

Did you ever meet anyone who taught himself Thai? Me neither.

I taught myself Thai. And this book played a huge part in my development.

I never learned Thai in a school environment. Never had a teacher. I read the book over and over (until the pages were falling out!); and I listened to the CDs.

I started learning with this book when I was back in England, and it was nice to have an introduction to the language before my arrival at Swampy. But my speaking and listening abilities obviously underwent major improvement through moving here and living in Thailand – all the while using the book as a reference.

My book was a 2004/2005 version bought from Waterstones in Manchester. I remember it being dear even then, but it was well worth it. The great thing about Smyth's book is that it is designed to get you reading Thai from the get-go. The dialogue situations are realistic ones you will encounter in Thailand, and I found them to be much more practical than other methods and reading/listening texts employed by other books – such as the Benjawan Poomsan Becker books.

I can highly recommend it.

So, how good is your Thai? Do the Thais usually understand what you say the first time you say it? Can you have a conversation of several hours in Thai? Do you understand Thai newscasts? How many books at a university level have you read in Thai? How many Thai words in your vocabulary?

[gerry1011]

Did you ever meet anyone who taught himself Thai? Me neither.

I taught myself Thai. And this book played a huge part in my development.

I never learned Thai in a school environment. Never had a teacher. I read the book over and over (until the pages were falling out!); and I listened to the CDs.

I started learning with this book when I was back in England, and it was nice to have an introduction to the language before my arrival at Swampy. But my speaking and listening abilities obviously underwent major improvement through moving here and living in Thailand – all the while using the book as a reference.

My book was a 2004/2005 version bought from Waterstones in Manchester. I remember it being dear even then, but it was well worth it. The great thing about Smyth's book is that it is designed to get you reading Thai from the get-go. The dialogue situations are realistic ones you will encounter in Thailand, and I found them to be much more practical than other methods and reading/listening texts employed by other books – such as the Benjawan Poomsan Becker books.

I can highly recommend it.

So, how good is your Thai? Do the Thais usually understand what you say the first time you say it? Can you have a conversation of several hours in Thai? Do you understand Thai newscasts? How many books at a university level have you read in Thai? How many Thai words in your vocabulary?

Captain, you should less suspicious

It is certainly possible to learn Thai without a teacher.

But it takes time and efforts.

You may not believe it either, but here is my own example:

- I learned to read and write first, with a series of 3 books easily found in book stores (Thai for Beginners, Thai for Intermediate Learners, and Thai for Advanced Readers).

- I learned the reading and writing first and started to practice the spoken language later on, after I gained some confidence.

- Nowadays, I read, write, speak fluently, chat easily in Thai on Facebook or Line, navigate very easily in the Thai society... and can do all these things that can change your life in a foreign country for the better.

- And because you, and most others, probably can't believe that foreigners can actually speak Thai fluently, what I can tell you is that I am also invited to give speeches in universities about business subjects, rarely speak other languages than Thai, can participate to humorous conversations, follow meetings and actively participate in them, watch the news, etc...

Learning Thai (and any other language) is just a question of time and efforts. It does not come by itself, of course.

My advice (that usually nobody follows) is to start with the reading and writing. No need to rush.

The "secrets" of the pronunciation are in the writing.

Once you can read and write, you will understand why words are pronounced this or that way. And once you understand that, you will become fluent quickly.

In my opinion, one needs two years to become rather fluent in Thai, and another 3 years to master the language. But of course, after that you still learn everyday, during every conversation, or from every email you write or read.

Learn Thai by yourself ! It's fun and changes your life in Thailand, trust me

[leosmith]

Did you ever meet anyone who taught himself Thai? Me neither.

It's not about the teacher, it's about the learner. Putting the burden on someone else is just a fantasy. Anyone with time, motivation and resources can learn a language. If you're missing even one of these, you won't reach a decent level. Teachers and schools fall under "resources" and are certainly replaceable for many if not most people. If you are an exception to this, meaning you absolutely have to have a teacher/school/path set up by someone else, there's nothing wrong with that. But please don't make the mistake of assuming everyone has your same needs.

[CaptHaddock]

Did you ever meet anyone who taught himself Thai? Me neither.

It's not about the teacher, it's about the learner. Putting the burden on someone else is just a fantasy. Anyone with time, motivation and resources can learn a language. If you're missing even one of these, you won't reach a decent level. Teachers and schools fall under "resources" and are certainly replaceable for many if not most people. If you are an exception to this, meaning you absolutely have to have a teacher/school/path set up by someone else, there's nothing wrong with that. But please don't make the mistake of assuming everyone has your same needs.

มีคนเก่งพอที่จะเรียนรู้ภาษาไทยโดยตัวเองได้แน่นอน เป็นคนหนึ่งในพัน แต่ปัญหาคือคนทั่วๆ ไป จำนวนมากแน่ใจว่าเขาเองเป็นคนเก่งสุดยอดแบบนี้ แต่ที่เว็บไสต์นี้เราเจอคนที่มีความรู้พอแล้วไม่บ่อยเลย ทำไมละ คนนิยมซื้อสลากกินแบ่งด้วย แต่เราเจอคนถูกหวยไม่บ่อยนะ ถ้าเราพยายามอธิบายให้คนซื้อสลากเข้าใจว่าเขาผลาญเงินแค่นั้น เขาก็เข้าใจยาก ทำไมละ

แล้วคุณละ เป็นคนที่พูดภาษาไทยชัดจนคนไทยเข้าใจครั้งแรกไหม มีคำศัพท์ใหญ่กว่าหลายร้อยคำไหม อ่านออกเขียนได้ไหม อย่างเช่น ชำราระดับมหาวิทยาลัยเป็นต้นไหม หรือ เป็นคนที่ชอบฝ้นใฝ่ชนะ

[uthaithanirules]

No substitute for talking with a thai speaker.

You pick up things ten times as fast when you have to try conversing in thai

[leosmith]

I didn't know all the idioms you used, I'm too tired to use the dictionary, and I've pretty much forgotten how to type Thai, so please forgive my cut/paste/short answers.

มีคนเก่งพอที่จะเรียนรู้ภาษาไทยโดยตัวเองได้แน่นอน เป็นคนหนึ่งในพัน

โดยตัวเอง = ด้วยตัวเอง?

I'm going to assume by เก่ง you mean C1/C2. 1 in 1000 self studiers reach C1/C2? It's certainly a low number, but I don't know if it's that low. This doesn't prove the only way to reach C1/C2 is by using a school.

แต่ปัญหาคือคนทั่วๆ ไป จำนวนมากแน่ใจว่าเขาเองเป็นคนเก่งสุดยอดแบบนี้ แต่ที่เว็บไสต์นี้เราเจอคนที่มีความรู้พอแล้วไม่บ่อยเลย ทำไมละ คนนิยมซื้อสลากกินแบ่งด้วย แต่เราเจอคนถูกหวยไม่บ่อยนะ ถ้าเราพยายามอธิบายให้คนซื้อสลากเข้าใจว่าเขาผลาญเงินแค่นั้น เขาก็เข้าใจยาก ทำไมละ

But the problem is lot of people are sure they are great, but on this website we don't see many who really are. And I think the last sentence means something like people making these claims get elusive when pressed? Sorry, don't know the idiom. But again, how does that prove the only way to reach C1/C2 is through a school?

แล้วคุณละ เป็นคนที่พูดภาษาไทยชัดจนคนไทยเข้าใจครั้งแรกไหม มีคำศัพท์ใหญ่กว่าหลายร้อยคำไหม อ่านออกเขียนได้ไหม อย่างเช่น ชำราระดับมหาวิทยาลัยเป็นต้นไหม หรือ เป็นคนที่ชอบฝ้นใฝ่ชนะ

Yes, they understand me most of the time (95%+ imo). My vocabulary is several thousand words (5000+ imo). I can read so-so, for example most voa articles I could understand without a dictionary, but not all. When I visit Thailand, sometimes I go through phases of writing daily articles/diary entries/etc, but I only visit once every one or two years, and don't maintain it. I sometimes type entries too, but don't enjoy typing as much. No, I don't do anything at the University level. I have no idea what "ฝ้น" means.

I'm B2, definitely not C1/C2. But once again, this doesn't prove that you need to go to school to reach C1/C2. Your Thai typing is impressive, but your argument isn't. Many people in many languages have reached C1/C2 without going through school. If you need it for your lack of motivation or something, that's fine, but don't assume we all do.

[CaptHaddock]

ปัญหาของการสนทนานี้คือ ผมเขียนว่า

Have you ever met anyone who taught himself Thai? Me neither.

แต่ leosmith อ่านคำนี้หมายถึงว่า

Since it is impossible for anyone to teach himself Thai, leosmith will certainly fail.

เพราะฉะนั้น leosmith คิดว่าถูกดูหมิ่น แล้วก็โกรธขึ้น จนตอบอย่างปรามาสด้วย leosmith มองโลกในแง่เห็นแก่ตัวเอง แต่จริงๆ หัวข้อดังกล่าวคือ การที่จาวต่าวชาติจำนวนมาก ที่พยายามเรียนรู้ภาษาไทยโดยการซื้อหนังสือและวิดีโอแค่นั้น จะไม่สำเร็จเลย (ไม่รู้ว่ารวมทั้ง leosmith ด้วย หรือเปล่า)

ช้วยเข้าใจว่าเป็นการวางนัยทั่วไป และถ้าอยากตอบโต้ ก็ต้องอ้างว่ามีหลายๆ คนเก่งขนาดนี้ เจอบ่อยๆ เป็นเพีื่อนๆ กัน

จุดประสงค์คือ ให้คำเตื่อนคนที่ไว้วางใจวิธีที่ไม่มีค่า โดยทั่วไป

[leosmith]

ปัญหาของการสนทนานี้คือ ผมเขียนว่า

Have you ever met anyone who taught himself Thai? Me neither.

แต่ leosmith อ่านคำนี้หมายถึงว่า

Since it is impossible for anyone to teach himself Thai, leosmith will certainly fail.

เพราะฉะนั้น leosmith คิดว่าถูกดูหมิ่น แล้วก็โกรธขึ้น จนตอบอย่างปรามาสด้วย leosmith มองโลกในแง่เห็นแก่ตัวเอง แต่จริงๆ หัวข้อดังกล่าวคือ การที่จาวต่าวชาติจำนวนมาก ที่พยายามเรียนรู้ภาษาไทยโดยการซื้อหนังสือและวิดีโอแค่นั้น จะไม่สำเร็จเลย (ไม่รู้ว่ารวมทั้ง leosmith ด้วย หรือเปล่า)

ช้วยเข้าใจว่าเป็นการวางนัยทั่วไป และถ้าอยากตอบโต้ ก็ต้องอ้างว่ามีหลายๆ คนเก่งขนาดนี้ เจอบ่อยๆ เป็นเพีื่อนๆ กัน

จุดประสงค์คือ ให้คำเตื่อนคนที่ไว้วางใจวิธีที่ไม่มีค่า โดยทั่วไป

Your original statement on this thread is nonsense. First you assume nobody here has met anyone who's self-learned Thai (they have), then you assume the OP and I guess everyone else intends to learn it to a very high level (which you only described in Thai not very useful to the OP). Who are you to decide to what level people need to learn a language? You say you did this to warn people about wasting their money/effort on self study, so why didn't you just write "Outside of learning institutions, I've never met foreigners who've reached C1/C2 in Thai". Too honest?

Despite what you've said in Thai, I'm more concerned about the misinformation you're spreading than angry, but interpret it as you wish. People self-learn languages to high levels all the time. As I said, all it takes is motivation, time and resources. And it takes a lot of motivation to get to C1/C2. If you need to go to school to get that motivation, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not a necessity for everyone, so you should stop implying that.

It's interesting that you think because you haven't met foreigners who've reached a high level in Thai on their own that means it's (essentially) impossible. That's false logic. Outside of learning institutions, how many foreigners do you know who have the motivation to go to C1/C2 in Thai? How many asian friends do you have?

You asked for detailed information about my Thai level, I gave you full disclosure, then you bashed my level. I'm really happy with my B2, even though you imply that I've failed. It takes twice as long to get to C1 as it does B2, and I don't have the time or motivation right now. Maybe if I move to Thailand I'll make the effort, but I'm learning 5 languages right now. Other than Thai, I'm C1 in Spanish, B2 in Japanese, Mandarin and Russian, B1 in French and Swahili. Still a self-learning failure? Just curious - what are your CEFR levels in your languages? Have you reached the level you described in Thai? I'd be really interested in seeing an unrehearsed video of you showing your conversation skills.

[BringMeSunshine]

@OP

Yep the old version (first published 1995) had 14 chapters. It got a big upgrade in 2010 details here: http://womenlearnthai.com/index.php/complete-thai-david-smyth-updates-teach-yourself-thai/

I have the old one and it's a very good book.

[DavidHouston]

For those of us who are new to this, what are C1/C2, other than cervical vertibrae?

[gerryBScot]

For those of us who are new to this, what are C1/C2, other than cervical vertibrae?

Just in case you are not being ironic, these are levels of linguistic proficiency used in the Central European Framework of Reference for Languages ("CEFR") which is a highly regarded international standard for describing language competence. C1/C2 describe 'proficient users' which as the name implies refers to the top end. Here's a link which provides a more detailed explanation of the system.

It may be of interest, though a little off topic, that the Thai Ministry of Education has recently adopted the used of CEFR standards to set various targets for Thai student learners of English:

Grade 6 should have reached A1

Grade 9 should have reached A2

Grade 12 should have reached B1.

Back on topic an experienced, knowledgeable and resourceful teacher must surely facilitate the process of any language learning activity. That much should be self-evident. In the case of a highly motivated self starter such a teacher must undoubtedly enhance the rate of progression, but not every teacher can do this. It does not actually follow that a native Thai speaker would necessarily make the best Thai language teacher for a learner of Thai. This is equally true in English where being a native speaker hardly qualifies anyone to perform in an educational setting as an English language teacher to a class of English language learners. In short there are no hard and fast rules about any of this stuff.

[CaptHaddock]

Your original statement on this thread is nonsense. First you assume nobody here has met anyone who's self-learned Thai (they have), then you assume the OP and I guess everyone else intends to learn it to a very high level (which you only described in Thai not very useful to the OP). Who are you to decide to what level people need to learn a language? You say you did this to warn people about wasting their money/effort on self study, so why didn't you just write "Outside of learning institutions, I've never met foreigners who've reached C1/C2 in Thai". Too honest?

I asked if anyone here has met anyone who taught himself Thai. A total of two people responded, neither of whom could say they had indeed ever met anyone who learned Thai from books and tapes. But they did claim to have done so themselves. So, two examples. Doesn't make much of a case for a high success rate for that method, does it?

The goal in acquiring any skill is to achieve competence. Otherwise, what would be the value of incompetence? The fact that there are a range of levels that competence encompasses is what gives rise to the CEFR, but I am deliberately not specifying what level of competence anyone should have as a goal, contrary to your claim.

I am addressing those who are not satisfied with their current lack of competence in Thai and want to correct it, but have chosen a method that is unlikely to work. Similarly, if someone tells me that he is going to get rich by reading a book on how to trade stock options I might point out that, although it is not impossible, it is very likely that he will simply lose his money.

Despite what you've said in Thai, I'm more concerned about the misinformation you're spreading than angry, but interpret it as you wish. People self-learn languages to high levels all the time. As I said, all it takes is motivation, time and resources. And it takes a lot of motivation to get to C1/C2. If you need to go to school to get that motivation, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not a necessity for everyone, so you should stop implying that.

Yes, you claim that people do this all the time, but you present only one example, yourself, as a success story. As we should all be aware by now, Thai is a particularly difficult language for native English-speakers to learn.

I wonder how it is that people have such confidence in the books and tapes method at all? Do they think that just because publishers sell them, that therefore they must be effective? For 99.9% of people it's just snake oil.

It's interesting that you think because you haven't met foreigners who've reached a high level in Thai on their own that means it's (essentially) impossible. That's false logic. Outside of learning institutions, how many foreigners do you know who have the motivation to go to C1/C2 in Thai? How many asian friends do you have?

In fact, it's not a logical claim at all. It's probability.

You asked for detailed information about my Thai level, I gave you full disclosure, then you bashed my level. I'm really happy with my B2, even though you imply that I've failed. It takes twice as long to get to C1 as it does B2, and I don't have the time or motivation right now. Maybe if I move to Thailand I'll make the effort, but I'm learning 5 languages right now. Other than Thai, I'm C1 in Spanish, B2 in Japanese, Mandarin and Russian, B1 in French and Swahili. Still a self-learning failure? Just curious - what are your CEFR levels in your languages? Have you reached the level you described in Thai? I'd be really interested in seeing an unrehearsed video of you showing your conversation skills.

At no point did I bash your level. I cannot evaluate your level and so have no opinion of it, but what you claim sounds plausible. So, for purposes of discussion I take it at face value. Seems like a good level, particularly for someone not on the ground here. In fact, I was impressed that you could even estimate the size of your Thai vocabulary, an idea occurs to few posters here. Even though I specifically say that there are exceptions, you insist on taking my generalization as a personal attack on you.

Now, if all of the other language competencies you claim are indeed true, then you should however realize the ridiculousness of your claim that people teach themselves languages effectively all the time, because you are an extreme outlier. Yes, I believe that someone who has already learned six languages can probably teach himself Thai, because he already knows how to acquire a second language.

But is it possible that you fail to realize that the posters on TV are mostly monolingual? They don't know how to learn a second language. So, your experience is completely irrelevant to them. Plus, I'll bet that you learned your first second language in school, not by yourself, although even that is not impossible, just very, very unlikely.

I do not consider myself fluent in Thai, but my argument does not depend on myself as the only evidence to support it as yours does, since all the foreigners I know who speak Thai competently learned it from teachers.

This is not a competition about whose Thai is better, an exercise more pointless than which it would be hard to imagine.

Edited March 24, 2016 by CaptHaddock

[regdddd]

Did you ever meet anyone who taught himself Thai? Me neither.

I don't know about westerners but I know many Chinese who learn to speak Thai like a native by themselves

[BKKBike09]

OP - I haven't seen the book but I wonder if it's derived from the old LinguaPhone Thai course, which was written by David Smyth and his colleague at SOAS (School of Oriental and African Studies in London), Manas Chitakasem. That was a very good course, which formed the basis for introductory Thai as it was taught in the '80s at SOAS.

As several other posters have suggested, focusing first on learning to read can be hugely helpful. It's really not that difficult, thanks to a defined alphabet, and it is great for boosting confidence since you can write down a word you don't recognise and then look it up in a dictionary later. Probably the best dictionary around is the venerable 'Thai-English Student's Dictionary' by Mary Haas. It's expensive and not easy to find but it is excellent. Quite a lot (if not most of it) seems to be online here though:

https://books.google.co.th/books?id=ftxwq_6Ohx8C&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

I found learning to write Thai to a reasonable general level (ie writing pretty much as you would speak) is fairly straightforward; however learning to write elegant literary Thai is extremely difficult.

Good luck!

PS - another dictionary that is quite entertaining is Dr Preecha Pinthong's Isan-Thai-English Dictionary (สารานุกรมภาษาอีสาน-ไทย-อังกฤษ). Again not cheap and very hard to find although I was Googling just now and see it may be available here. Dr Preecha was a fascinating man whom I had the good fortune to meet a loooooong time ago:

https://www.facebook.com/sirithamoffset/posts/937378999609847

[Aforek]

Did you ever meet anyone who taught himself Thai? Me neither.

I don't know about westerners but I know many Chinese who learn to speak Thai like a native by themselves

I rembember a Thai teacher who said, in an interview, that among her students, the Chinese were the most gifted and they learned and speak Thai much better and much faster than her western students ; the fact that Chinese is also a tonal language helps much

As for me, I have learned Thai with the help of books and talking with Thai people, and I have learned how to read it completely alone, with the help of a book ( which means I have not learned it alone, but with a book, not with a teacher )

[bearpolar]

Did you ever meet anyone who taught himself Thai? Me neither.

I don't know about westerners but I know many Chinese who learn to speak Thai like a native by themselves

Many farangs as well, they just don't waste time posting about it on thaivisa

Capthaddock's levels are pretty low himself as i was able to understand everything he wrote. Don't know why hes riding people so hard.

Everyone i have met that is close to fluent in thai has never been to a thai school, they just immersed themselves. I dont know if they are good at passa kian but their passa put is just as good as any thai with a highschool education. (maybe not perfect tone control, still very good)

Though we can all agree that farangs studying thai at high levels at the university are extremely good, better than most thais.

Edited April 6, 2016 by bearpolar

[Seligne2]

Different strokes for different folks. I would guess that someone not motivated to learn on her own is probably likely to be an indifferent student in a classroom as well.