American Man Beaten To Death In Pattaya

[davethailand]

this story has just been on pattaya city news about 30 seconds ago.

the story is he got into a fight with another prisoner and died.

i feel sorry for the guy but he looked a of a pisshead and they claimed that he went bezerk in the prison and started attacking other inmates.

(before you start on me, i know that looking like a pisshead does'nt warrent being killed) the guys visable injuries were minimal.

maybe he's a typicle example of the complete idiots that you get here in pattaya,

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Edited April 17, 2004 by george

[roamer]

Pattaya Jail...for those of you hav'nt seen it, no more than what we in the West would call a police holding centre..lots of people in one cell. Before we sound off about Thaksin and Thai jails,,,contact your Senator etc, lets face it, this happens all over the world...you don't have to be an American in Thailand to die in a jail cell.

Maybe the message that goes out about this should be that little word OVERSTAY..don't do it.

[penzman]

If you really get in trouble you could try the Canadians - they ARE good.

Now <deleted> is this???

Do you think this is like shopping at K-Mart or something?

If you get in trouble because you were too stupid or drunk to behave properly in a foreign country then suffer the consequences. Deal with your OWN embassy.

The Canadian embassy or any other embassy may be good but other people with simple problems as a lost passport or some other minor thing would then have to be shoved aside for some idiot???

I ended up staying an extra month here last year after my passport disappeared but did not even dare take a chance to mess around with overstay.

It is sad that this young guy ended up at the morgue but how did he really find his way there?

[Moving]

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/Admin

George,

WHY?? Not as 'off topic' as some and not nearly as lewd as some I have read...I didn't make an unexplained death, a JOKE...I made no personal attacks on the favored posters who grace us with their wisdom and divine insight..

I assume this also will be sent to cyber space but I am beginning to get the distinct impression that this has become a personal CHAT opportunity for a select few.

[dplast]

As an American, a product of the inner city, a Vietnam vet, with two divorces under my belt, I at times start believing my own PR and get pretty cocky. Then I hear a story like this, while remembering the shody treament I've recived at US Embassys and it brings me back to the real world fast.

Sad to hear about the death of any man, from any cause and even worse when it was as senseless as this seemed... Though the event may serve a purpose of sorts, anyway to guys like me, its a strong reminder of how personally vulnerabilty I really am as I keep on trucking trough Asia.

[Boon Mee]

He was probably overheard defending GWB's positions and suffered swift retribution...

My mate the Gent is away on a Jolly right now, I wouldn't be suprised if he had infiltrated the jail at night, slipped in and did the septic just for the fun of it.

Bash

Basher,

Someday you've got to tell us what happened to The Gent at the hands of a "septic" in Africa?

[tess79]

Why not in immigration jail...why in Pattaya???? I wonder maybe it's nice in Pattaya jail rather than immigration jail...sorry to hear about this????

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Pattaya Jail:

This is the first prisoner murdered since Felix Hartman in November 2002.

If the next of kin of the late Mr Dunn need help, call me, Chris Hill, HelpLine - 061-451-583.

American Embassy: U.S. Citizen Services.

Of all the foreign embassies based in Thailand, including the Arab, Iranian, Russian embassies (and HelpLine deals with them all) Americans in trouble are warned that USCS refuses to give them any assistance in Pattaya and compared to other Diplomatic Missions - nearly none in Bangkok.

I have found them consistently uncaring, breathtakingly slothful, arrogant.

Americans in trouble are advised to notify the Embassy - but for anything to be done, contact your local congressman or State Senator. Let them know that you have been advised the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok is actively unhelpful.

If you really get in trouble you could try the Canadians - they ARE good.

Yours aye,

Chris Hill

How useful are other Embassies in circumstances like this ?

[BlissfullyIgnorant]

How useful are other Embassies in circumstances like this ?

Based on my experience trying to help an Aussie jailed in MaeSai for an immigration offence, I would say that the Australian embassy could be described the same as others are describing the US embassy.

For those that have asked why he was in Pattaya jail - as with the west, that is the standard procedure.

First you go to the local holding police station holding cells until you can make you first court appearance (which is just a reading of the charges - no plea) - this took 5 days the the fellow I was trying to help. After that he was transferred to Chiangrai prison overnight for his court "appearance" (which he didn't actually have to appear for - his lawyer did all the appearing). And following that was sent to Bangkok Special Prison for 23 days before having his final appearance (which was an appearance), paying his (I won't say it, but remarkably low) fine, and being released.

Throughout the whole procedure, the Australian embassy were at no stage willing to offer any real help. The first visit he received from an embassy official was after he was in BSP for 13 days (some 20 days after being picked up) and that was the only visit he had. They didn't do anything to assist, except for an offer to call a relative on his behalf, that's it.

If you get picked up in Thailand, you'll need some local mates to help you out - forget about consular assistance, they won't be of any help.

[steffi]

How did he end up in the jail?

How long was he overstayed and what opportunity did he have to pay his fine?

If the embassy isn't prepared to help what are they suppose to do.

If someone overstays and gets slung in prison is the embassy under no obligation to help?

[Martin]

Black Jack's posting interests me. Does anyone have experience of using one of these 'negotiators'?. Are they available in other Thailand cities, or only Bangkok?.

This may not really be the place for answers to my questions, so I'll (try to) start a new topic with them.

Black Jack said:

the som tum lady told me that every farang should carry in their wallet the name of a negotiator

these people work just a little bit out side of the law - however they do work for law firms

they negotiate the settlement (before it escalates out of control) and the fees to be paid

the fees can be paid off over time

its worth it

however many loud mouths stand their ground on ammendments that dont exist in this country

as she pounded in the chilies she said be thai, shut up, pay the fees, live long and prosper Spock

[mbkudu]

I once lost my passport and went to get a new one there in Bangkok and was treated like a criminal throughout the entire procedure.

Did they know you, Mbkudu?

Well let's see I had my birth certificate, my CA. driver's license and a photocopy of my passport. Obviously they knew they had to help me but wished they didn't have to.

[Guest IT Manager]

It maybe time to think about getting a moderated chat going in the chat room some nights, like we thught about and only did once.

Maybe, just maybe, someone in the forum, knows someone at an embassy, who can tell us how they see their role and why their view of their role and our view of "reasonable expectations" do not often coalesce. Maybe a consul or ambassador could do it. Lets face it, 9,000 members has to be worth an hour of their time.

It does work in the chat room as I said because we had an admin one, once. Worked ok in my opinion. What do others think?

[MaiChai]

Come to Thailand and live dangerously. The TAT don't put that in their blurb. You really do have to watch yourself here. Especially if you are a condo owner in Pattaya and you arn't on the ground floor! Its a little like the wild west with politeness and graing jai thrown in.

[mbkudu]

Just to not color them all bad, I have heard that Switzerland and the Scandinavian countries help their citizens the most.

[Bluecat]

I once lost my passport and went to get a new one there in Bangkok and was treated like a criminal throughout the entire procedure.

Did they know you, Mbkudu?

Well let's see I had my birth certificate, my CA. driver's license and a photocopy of my passport. Obviously they knew they had to help me but wished they didn't have to.

I would guess some Embassies have far "heavier" workload than others and are maybe more frequently subjected to "difficult" cases.

Just a question a number, what are the countries having the highest number of their nationals in Thailand? Are they the same ones we usually hear complaints about?

Not that it would excuse them,BTW,...

[BlissfullyIgnorant]

The question is, what exactly can your embassy do if you are picked up for an immigration offence?

They obviously can't intervene with the due process of law, but there is a lot they could do, but they just don't seem willing to do so. When my friend was picked up, he had no clear idea what his alleged offence was, no idea of the process of Thai law, no idea how long he was being detained for, no idea where he was going to be 15 minutes from now etc etc..

Here's what a friend can do, you tell me whether this is too much to expect from your embassy:

1) Find someone that can explain the alleged offence in English, and find out what the possible ramifications of the offence are.

2) Find out what and when the next move is - this needs to be updated for each step of the legal process. There's nothing worse than not knowing what's happening.

3) Provide clean, cool clothes (cotton shirt & shorts)

4) Provide a towel (this will also become a bed)

5) Seek legal representation for them

6) Contact family/friends so they have someone to talk to, and organise finances etc.

7) Give a newspaper - this will be divvied up page by page with the other cell mates, and is great for getting on the right side of the cell ringleaders.

8) Give cigarettes - even if they don't smoke. Krong Thip's seem to be the most popular, but it might cost you a bit to get them inside. Once again the ringleaders will take them and divvie them out to the other cell mates.

We're not talking about big expenses or hassles here, and it sure makes a big difference just to be reasonably clean/comfortable and to know what's happening..

[Martin]

I support ######'s idea of trying to get more authoritative information about the availability of support for expats here. An exposition of the extent and limitations of Embassy services from a senior member of the Diplomatic Services would be useful, particularly if a transcript could be posted.

One gets the impression that it is a set-up that reflects the age when very few people travelled (much less, went to live) abroad. And that it has been overtaken by the effects of cheap mass travel and other effects of globalisation.

Last year I had this description of their workload from the Consular Section of the British Embassy:

".........I have to try with limited resources to cover an unknown resident population, over 700,000 British visitors to Thailand every year, over 30 British nationals in long term detention, an average of 20 arrests per month, over 150 deaths per year, 300+ hospitalisations every year and a myriad of other cases. There are only six officers covering this workload, two of us from the UK and the rest are locally engaged. I believe the staff here do a very good job in the circumstances but we do need help ........."

For the Brits, it is an opportune time to raise the topic. Last December the British Government produced a statement (Command Paper 6052, 66 pages, GBP16.25 (but you can download it for free)) entitled "UK International Priorities" that spells out their strategy for (among other things) their representation abroad, via Embassies etc. On page 46, in Chapter 5 "Delivering high quality public services" it reveals that "...Consular assistance.....to UK nationals travelling or living abroad.... is funded by levying a small percentage of the cost of every UK passport". I have been trying to find out how much that is, and will try again. Maybe a pound on the cost of the pasport could change things a lot---and is an 'insurance premium' that I, for one, would be glad to pay.

I gather that later this year the British Embassies are to make their responses to London (about what they propose to do to line themselves up with this post9/11 strategy), so now is the time that we should be showing some interest in getting a modern-level of provision.

[davethailand]

i live in pattaya and have to say on the whole the police here are'nt that bad, i'm lucky firstly because i've never been nicked and secondly all the police here i've met (some are friends) or been stopped for helmets etc they have always been very reasonable and polite.

there must be more to this story, as said on a farang news channel he went bezerk, maybe thats why they threw him in the city police's jail. its not as if the police here go around nicking people just for overstay, they don't, like the condo raid before there was a tip off or he'd done something else.

terrible waste of life and respects to his family.

[mrmnp]

The current U.S. government "attitude" reflects the polical party in power, there is no motivation to "help" any of its citizens, inside the U.S. or abroad.

Given that, a person involved in with the criminal justice system, inside or abroad, can expect no help, as there is no mechanism or legislation establishing such help.

There is a Federal public defenders mandated by law to help a incarcerated person accused of a crime, but that help is legal help, not help with creature comforts. Thus the accused rarely even meets his court appointed attorney until just before a court appearance, or often while in the courtroom moments befoe making his "appearance". It certainly won't be any different in a foreign country.

The Bristish Embassy information provided above provides good insight into the typical Embassy's problems with their nationals on a day to day basis, and these nationals are not accused of crimes.

Mexican and Turkish jails have reputations far worse than Thai jails and stories coming out of Thai jails of farang doing "long stay" surpise we as to their benign treatment.

I think it is politically unrealistic to expect any Ambassador or his staff to inject themselves into a host countries judicial system, after all, they serve in the host country at the pleasure of the host. Certainly, an ambassadors serving in a country receiving mass amounts of foreign aid from his own country is in a much better place to demand more from the host country, than one that doesn't have such bargaining position.

What help the U.S. Embassy was giving prior to 9/11, is certainly compromised by their new work load interviewing all visa applicants. I bet their was no new funding for that effort.

A Thai firend, who worked in a hotel in Chiang Mai, tells a story of an American who lost "all" to a Thai lady, and the Embassy guaranteed three days of hotel bills, 1000 baht a day for food, until the unlucky "in love" farang could get back home.

[Crash999]

But they do get free paid memberships to all the golf and country clubs, free trips home and a new car imported every 2 years that they can sell at an inflated price because the import duty as well as the trips home and the club memberships are paid for by the American tax payer.as well as the very nice living accommodations they require.

Fortunately (knock on wood), I haven't had to ask for the assistance of the American embassy during my time in Thailand.

However, from the sounds of it I shouldn't expect too much in the way of help should I be even unfairly detained by police or immigration officials. This is particularly disgusting as part of the justification for taxing US citizens who live and work overseas is our use of foreign services such as embassies and consulates.

I suspect the reason for this is similar to that at the British embassy- the staff assigned to handling such cases are completely overwhelmed. As such, it'll take external pressure to change the situation- so any publicity we could drum up would be very helpful.

This would make a good 60 Minutes episode in the US- with the obvious disconnect of US embassy officials not willing or capable of helping US citizens unfairly detained in foreign jails, despite being paid to do so.

Cheers!

[Kiko]

What cockroach did that I wonder? Oh What I would do if I were the King!

Tell us: What you would do if you would be the king ?

[Rhys]

And the mysteries continue....Infor on Embassy services... concur Personel, mixed.. as I have a friend in training

[taxexile]

QUOTE (ayakiawe @ Sat 2004-04-17, 19:27:49)

What cockroach did that I wonder? Oh What I would do if I were the King! 

Tell us: What you would do if you would be the king ?

its better if you dont. you are in thailand now.

[royar2002]

this story has just been on pattaya city news about 30 seconds ago.

the story is he got into a fight with another prisoner and died.

i feel sorry for the guy but he looked a of a pisshead and they claimed that he went bezerk in the prison and started attacking other inmates.

(before you start on me, i know that looking like a pisshead does'nt warrent being killed) the guys visable injuries were minimal.

maybe he's a typicle example of the complete idiots that you get here in pattaya,

maybe he's a typicle example of the complete idiots that you get in USA.

[taxexile]

maybe he's a typicle example of the complete idiots that you get in USA.

are you a brit by any chance?

[Chris Hill]

"Why does the American Embassy refuse to help out in Pattaya and are they the only one ?"

No U.S.Citizen Services (to be sarcastic) is not the only one which does nothing for its citizens in distress.

They have companions in sloth.

The Democratic Republic of the Congo, Liberia, Togo, Burkino Faso, Mocambique, North Korea,

However, the above African countries do not have an embassy or consular office closer than Beijing.

If you are an American in Thailand - and you are in any kind of trouble - you can expect almost no help at all.

Anywhere which is too far from the shopping or cocktail circuits for the slugs in USCS could be on the moon for all the care they show.

Americans - get angry about it - these "uncivil self-servants" are a disgrace to the honor of the USA.

They lend a new meaning to "High powered inertia".

Chris Hill

HelpLine.

[Basher]

My mate the Gent is away on a Jolly right now, I wouldn't be suprised if he had infiltrated the jail at night, slipped in and did the septic just for the fun of it.

Bash

Basher,

Someday you've got to tell us what happened to The Gent at the hands of a "septic" in Africa?

I can't do that BM, you know the first rule of Fight Club.

But wait a while, the Gent is writing a book/screenplay about a few of the things us and some other lads have gotten up to over there (no names of course) which will make interesting reading.

Bash

[john b good]

I am confused at the what seems to be progressive anti farang mentality in Thailand.

Is this something deeper or just business as usual?

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I would suggest that there has always been an anti farang mentality in Thailand and yes I believe it is not getting any better. It is a case of rip the farang off and notch up the points for having done so.

This anti farang (anti expat) mentaliity is not however unique to Thailand and is present in many 3rd world countries. Thay all want our money and assistance but they without question resent the fact that we are in a position where we can offer help.

It is damned if you do and damned if you don't