Married (thai Wife), Moving To Thailand

[kriswillems]

Hello,

I am married and my (Thai) wife and I decided to stay a few years in Europe before moving back to Thailand. I've lived one year in Thailand just before we got married (on tourist visas). We've been married for 6 years and during this time we stayed in Europe.

We have about 5 million bath in savings om a European bank account and we've a monthly income of around 20.000 baht when we put our appartment for rent.

I am 34 years old, my wife is 28.

We both have university degrees. I am an angineer in electronics/computer science.

I am not a native English speaker (as you might have noticed from my writing) and I don't want to be an English teacher (there are already enough bad teachers).

I have no job in Thailand and I know that it's also not that easy to find a job outside bangkok (although it's not impossible).

Now we want to move back to Thailand. She wants to take over the shop of het mother which (like many small Thai businesses) has officially a very low income (although in reality it's not that low at all).

My wife already owns a house in Thailand.

We could easily meet the "400K baht on the Thai bank account"-requirement but as I understand this requirement is not valid anymore for new applicants.

We would like to go to live in Sri Racha (Chonburi) and I don't want to go to work in Bangkok.

What kind of visa should I apply for? And which would the best way to renew the visa? And which would be the cheapest solution that allows me to stay there?

Summary:

- I've no job

- My wife has officially a low income in Thailand

- 5 million bath saving

- 20000 baht/month income from rent

Goal:

Living in Thailand.

Question:

How to take care of the visas?

I believe the new regulations are not very fair. A retired European who has no interest in Thailand at all has the right to live there if he has 800.000 baht on an account. A younger european married with a Thai wife has no right to live there if he has the same amount on an account? Seems like age is a more serious reason to stay in Thailand than having a wife over there?

PS. I meant 400K or 400.000 Baht (not 400.000 K )

Edited November 2, 2006 by kriswillems

[Maestro]

I believe the new regulations are not very fair.

With that negative attitude of yours from the outset, I am reluctant to give you advice as you may comment on any suggestion being made that it is “unfair”.

There is in fact a very simple way for you and your family to live in Thailand legally, with you on annual extensions of stay.

--------------

Maestro

[kriswillems]

I believe the new regulations are not very fair.

With that negative attitude of yours from the outset, I am reluctant to give you advice as you may comment on any suggestion being made that it is “unfair”.

There is in fact a very simple way for you and your family to live in Thailand legally, with you on annual extensions of stay.

--------------

Maestro

Let's give it a try I'll promise not to judge

I thought annual extensions of a non-immigrant-O are only possible if you've >40K/month income (for new applicants), and the 400K rule is not valid for new applicants?

Edited November 2, 2006 by kriswillems

[meatgrowler]

Hello,

I am married and my (Thai) wife and I decided to stay a few years in Europe before moving back to Thailand. I've lived one year in Thailand just before we got married (on tourist visas). We've been married for 6 years and during this time we stayed in Europe.

We have about 5 million bath in savings om a European bank account and we've a monthly income of around 20.000 baht when we put our appartment for rent.

I am 34 years old, my wife is 28.

We both have university degrees. I am an angineer in electronics/computer science.

I am not a native English speaker (as you might have noticed from my writing) and I don't want to be an English teacher (there are already enough bad teachers).

I have no job in Thailand and I know that it's also not that easy to find a job outside bangkok (although it's not impossible).

Now we want to move back to Thailand. She wants to take over the shop of het mother which (like many small Thai businesses) has officially a very low income (although in reality it's not that low at all).

My wife already owns a house in Thailand.

We could easily meet the "400K baht on the Thai bank account"-requirement but as I understand this requirement is not valid anymore for new applicants.

We would like to go to live in Sri Racha (Chonburi) and I don't want to go to work in Bangkok.

What kind of visa should I apply for? And which would the best way to renew the visa? And which would be the cheapest solution that allows me to stay there?

Summary:

- I've no job

- My wife has officially a low income in Thailand

- 5 million bath saving

- 20000 baht/month income from rent

Goal:

Living in Thailand.

Question:

How to take care of the visas?

I believe the new regulations are not very fair. A retired European who has no interest in Thailand at all has the right to live there if he has 800.000 baht on an account. A younger european married with a Thai wife has no right to live there if he has the same amount on an account? Seems like age is a more serious reason to stay in Thailand than having a wife over there?

PS. I meant 400K or 400.000 Baht (not 400.000 K )

i am in thre same boat....im reading this post and learning with anticipation...good post by the way...

[Gumballl]

I believe the new regulations stipulate the 40,000 baht are required each month for the Non-Imm-O visa. Since you have 20K coming from rental property in the EU, seems like you are half way there.

Will your wife's shop generate enough money to cover the deficit (in other words 20K per month)? If so, I believe this is sufficient for you to quality for the Non-Imm-O.

Last time I checked 20K + 20K = 40K.

Good luck to you.

[kriswillems]

I believe the new regulations stipulate the 40,000 baht are required each month for the Non-Imm-O visa. Since you have 20K coming from rental property in the EU, seems like you are half way there.

Will your wife's shop generate enough money to cover the deficit (in other words 20K per month)? If so, I believe this is sufficient for you to quality for the Non-Imm-O.

Last time I checked 20K + 20K = 40K.

Good luck to you.

The shop generates enough to live. But just like with all small businesses the income of the shop is estimated by a controller of the tax-department that comes to check once per year. If we tell to this person our income is 40K per month, we'll pay tax on that 40K which will give us a disadvantage in competing with the neigbour shops that have much less official income (average only 10K).

Further on I don't how am I am going to prove the income of the rental agreement of the appartment here in Europe? Any suggestion for that?

I can also prove the interest I get on my money on my savings account here in Europe (with 5 million baht on it). But which document would they require?

None of the papers I have (rental agreement or bank statements) is in English (I don't live in UK).

The parents of my wife own an appartment with 67 rooms which could be put partly on my wifes name. How much tax do we need to pay on income from rent in Thailand? Would this income also count to reach the 40K requirement?

Edited November 2, 2006 by kriswillems

[Nam Kao]

I am in the same boat

I am thinking of getting the 1 year multi entry and flying out to Phnom Penh every 90 days

and dressing cgs in im. uniforms ...

I am figuring it will set me back 6-8K a month to budget this in but i got to make the best of it.

still mulling it all over

good kuck

nam

Edited November 2, 2006 by Nam Kao

[DerringDo]

Greets. I AM NOT AN EXPERT.

I think that any combination to make up 40k income is all that is required now. I thought that it was YOU who have to have the income not your wife.

1) Send a message to Sunbelt Asia exactly like the one you have posted. They may or may not help, but they're usually pretty helpful. DON'T buy a business just to be able to stay.

2) Register and perform a job, as a journalist, with a local German newspaper before you leave, and accreditation drops the requirement to an income of 20k baht per month. I think Journalism is one of the lower Baht requirement Work Permits.

Disadvantage with other local shops? The tax rate is something like 5%, so what's that 2000B a month. Hardly a disadvantage if you're not declaring true income anyway.

As you want to stay for a long time then it is better to be legal from day one. There are many ways to remain legally too. If you go down the Work Permit route, after 3 years, you can apply for residency.

Hope this helps. As i said i'm not an expert

Edited November 3, 2006 by DerringDo

[dave111223]

Set up a corporation in your home country. Send yourself 20k a month from the corporation as a dividend (out of the 5mil in the bank).

Then just stick that money in the bank here.

So that would boost you up to the 40k requirement.

*You'll probably be required to pay tax in your home country based on the 20k you are sending yourself. I'm not sure about in Europe, but in the US you wont really end up paying any tax to $12,000 income a year anyways.

[Tywais]

I think that any combination to make up 40k income is all that is required now. I thought that it was YOU who have to have the income not your wife.

It is a combination of funds of husband + wife and has to average out to 40k/month over a years time. So just transfer the 20K rent + wifes income + remaining from savings account = 40k each month from your home account and that should do it. As far as I know you don't have to specify it as earned income just proof that it came from abroad (except for the wife's income if earned in Thailand). I don't see it as being a problem for you.

[kriswillems]

The tax on 40.000 baht from work would be around 2800 Baht/month. That makes a total of 33.000 baht per year. The tax on 10.000 baht per month (that's around what the shop is making officially) is almost like nothing.

Proving my income here in Europe will be very hard because our tax declaration form here in my country doesn't show the full income you get from rent. It only shows a small part, like 1/3, because goverment believes that only 1/3 of the actual rent maybe considered as income/profit. And I don't believe Thai government is going to except just any paper with "rental agreement" written on it as an official prove of income. I also don't believe my embassy is going to do a lot effort helping me prove my european income (it's not really their business).

I am kinda desperate. I have more than enough money to start a life in Thailand (about 5 million baht) and I also intend to work and pay tax, but I am not amused by the fact that I'll be kicked out after 90 days when I would fall below the 40K/month limit (although my financial buffer is sufficient to cope with situation during a few years).

Is being old really a better reason to stay in Thailand than loving your Thai wife and being married to her for almost 6 years now? Seem so.

[kriswillems]

As far as I know you don't have to specify it as earned income just proof that it came from abroad (except for the wife's income if earned in Thailand). I don't see it as being a problem for you.

This is interesting. Can anyone confirm this? If true, that would also mean I can just take part of my savings and transfer 20000 baht/month to Thailand?

[kriswillems]

Set up a corporation in your home country. Send yourself 20k a month from the corporation as a dividend (out of the 5mil in the bank).

Then just stick that money in the bank here.

So that would boost you up to the 40k requirement.

*You'll probably be required to pay tax in your home country based on the 20k you are sending yourself. I'm not sure about in Europe, but in the US you wont really end up paying any tax to $12,000 income a year anyways.

Nice suggestion, but not the best solution for me. My home country has the third highest taxes in the world. Setting up a company over here and paying myself is no option.

[Cyberstar]

The tax on 40.000 baht from work would be around 2800 Baht/month. That makes a total of 33.000 baht per year. The tax on 10.000 baht per month (that's around what the shop is making officially) is almost like nothing.

...

Is being old really a better reason to stay in Thailand than loving your Thai wife and being married to her for almost 6 years now? Seem so.

One can't but pity small-minded guys like you - it can't be fun to be stuck with a mind working like that ...

There you are: a 34 year old guy with reasonable savings and a reasonable income. As should be evident from other replies, in this thread, you have the means to relocate to the country of your dreams (I presume)- the one and only drawback is that you have to pay a small - and very affordable - amount of tax to the hosting country.

Do you jump of joy? -- No.

You focus on the tremendeous problem that people, truly deserving retirement - some of which might have paid maybe 100,000 times as much tax in their lifetime than you'll ever get around to - actually can retire here without work-income.

You focus on the tremendeous problem that natives, that never have had the chances you have had (and probably wasted), have that small piece of luck, that the pay less tax than you.

//edit to remove flame - lopburi3//

[kriswillems]

One can't but pity small-minded guys like you - it can't be fun to be stuck with a mind working like that ...

There you are: a 34 year old guy with reasonable savings and a reasonable income. As should be evident from other replies, in this thread, you have the means to relocate to the country of your dreams (I presume)- the one and only drawback is that you have to pay a small - and very affordable - amount of tax to the hosting country.

Do you jump of joy? -- No.

You focus on the tremendeous problem that people, truly deserving retirement - some of which might have paid maybe 100,000 times as much tax in their lifetime than you'll ever get around to - actually can retire here without work-income.

You focus on the tremendeous problem that natives, that never have had the chances you have had (and probably wasted), have that small piece of luck, that the pay less tax than you.

//edit to remove flame - lopburi3//

The perspective of every person is different. You're clearly not in my situation. I've no problem with the people that retire in Thailand. But I think married people should have at least the same rights as these people. Can you imagine how it would feel like to be seperated from your partner if for some reason your income would drop below 40K? Can you image how it feels like paying taxes on an income that you might not have, just to stay with the person you love?

[manjara]

Set up a corporation in your home country. Send yourself 20k a month from the corporation as a dividend (out of the 5mil in the bank).

Then just stick that money in the bank here.

So that would boost you up to the 40k requirement.

*You'll probably be required to pay tax in your home country based on the 20k you are sending yourself. I'm not sure about in Europe, but in the US you wont really end up paying any tax to $12,000 income a year anyways.

Nice suggestion, but not the best solution for me. My home country has the third highest taxes in the world. Setting up a company over here and paying myself is no option.

Someone else said don't start up a Thai company just to stay here, but depending what you want to do, then that might be the best approach.

I presume you are not planning on retiring on 5 million baht!? Therefore I would assume you will be investing in something (perhaps not the full 5 million) in Thailand?

You will almost certainly want to do that through a company, where you and your wife are partners (after 6 years, I reckon you don't have to listen to all the cynics on Thaivisa who say never give your wife access to your money!).

Basically that's the route I have taken, and I actually pay myself a bit more than the 40k required (it leads to less questions). The company didn't cost that much to set up and running costs are around 10k a month. Once you have the company, then you can decide what you want to invest in, and do it through the company (e.g. buy property).

I'm in the Computing industry and work on contracts around Asia (this year in Thailand, but I'm not sure I would do it again, other parts of Asia are easier to work in).

I'm planning on hiring a couple of Thais to do development work next year and work on projects for some European contacts (outsourcing!

The only problem with having the company, other than the expenses/month, is that you have to show sufficient revenue every year to cover your wage, although you only have to pay out the tax on what you say you pay yourself.

Anyway, I would think a little longer term before ruling out the company option.

[Inspector 2211]

The tax on 40.000 baht from work would be around 2800 Baht/month. That makes a total of 33.000 baht per year.

In other words, peanuts.

Your health insurance alone (and I guess you'll get health insurance, yes?) will probably be more than that. Let alone the rent.

View it as the price of admission to one of the most fascinating countries in the world.

Other people's price of admission is the 1 million Baht Thailand Elite card, just for comparison.

And I don't believe Thai government is going to except just any paper with "rental agreement" written on it as an official prove of income.

Have the rental statement notarized.

Plus, have your Thai bank account show an incoming money transfer of 20000 baht each and every month.

These two things together should constitute proof.

I am kinda desperate. I have more than enough money to start a life in Thailand (about 5 million baht)

I think that's the part where you are overly optimistic, while at the same time being overly pessimistic about being able to meet the 40000 Baht per month requirement.

I wouldn't move to Thailand with a mere 5 million Baht in savings.

At your age, 3 times that amount would be much more reasonable.

What if you have a heart attack? Some men have a heart attack in their 40s.

While open heart surgery in a Thai hospital would conceivably be less expensive than in the west,

it still could wipe out about half of your 5 million Baht faster than you can say "peep".

and I also intend to work and pay tax,

Work as what?

As an English teacher?

You didn't say whether you're a native English speaker, but your TV handle suggests otherwise.

Do you know that many professions in Thailand are closed to farangs?

That's why I'm saying, you're too optimistic about your 5 million Baht.

but I am not amused by the fact that I'll be kicked out after 90 days when I would fall below the 40K/month limit (although my financial buffer is sufficient to cope with situation during a few years).

Again, don't worry about the 40K so much.

At 20K (rental income) plus 10K (your wife's official income) you're already 3/4 there.

The missing 10K - pay it to yourself (as another poster has suggested) and stick it into

a savings account. It's just transferring money from farangland to Thailand, that's all.

Is being old really a better reason to stay in Thailand than loving your Thai wife and being married to her for almost 6 years now? Seem so.

Look, I'm also not happy about the new visa rules (specifially, that the 3 mio Baht investor visa was abolished) but that's life.

You're only short 10000 Baht per month. That's such a laughable amount, many guys spend more than that per month for beer.

[rainman]

that is news to me. i am currently on a 400k marriage visa which expires around march next year when i'll need to renew it. since i am not a new applicant, can i still show 400k on the bank account and get the new one-year extension? or will i have to comply with the new rules and show 40k (which i have anyways, more than that) offshore income?

so what is it for current holders of the marriage visa? 400k or income?

*edit: by the way, i own my own offshore company, where the income comes from. i wonder if they will accept a letter from myself stating i earn this amount every month? or will bank statements suffice?

Edited November 3, 2006 by rainman

[Mentors]

it's not that low at all).

I believe the new regulations are not very fair. A retired European who has no interest in Thailand at all has the right to live there if he has 800.000 baht on an account. A younger european married with a Thai wife has no right to live there if he has the same amount on an account? Seems like age is a more serious reason to stay in Thailand than having a wife over there?

PS. I meant 400K or 400.000 Baht (not 400.000 K )

I 100% agreed with you. It is absolute unfair and makes no sense why someone under 50.

married with a Thai and rather common with Thai society has bigger hurdle than someone who is over 50, but unmarried and often just sit around in the bar scene for example.

Edited November 3, 2006 by Mentors

[Tywais]

that is news to me. i am currently on a 400k marriage visa which expires around march next year when i'll need to renew it. since i am not a new applicant, can i still show 400k on the bank account and get the new one-year extension? or will i have to comply with the new rules and show 40k (which i have anyways, more than that) offshore income?

Since you were under the 400k rule prior to the change you will be grandfathered in and continue using the 400k rule. However if you were using the 40k rule prior you can not switch to 400k rules.

[Lite Beer]

that is news to me. i am currently on a 400k marriage visa which expires around march next year when i'll need to renew it. since i am not a new applicant, can i still show 400k on the bank account and get the new one-year extension? or will i have to comply with the new rules and show 40k (which i have anyways, more than that) offshore income?

so what is it for current holders of the marriage visa? 400k or income?

You have the option of either , providing the 400k is in the bank for a period of 3 months before you apply.

[lopburi3]

Married 40k per month income - retired 65k per month income or 800k.

Sounds like the married have to have less income to me.

rainman: Yes, you can continue to use the 400k.

[rainman]

You have the option of either , providing the 400k is in the bank for a period of 3 months before you apply.

is that a new rule too? when i did my first extension i had the 400k in the bank account about two days before applying

[Tywais]

You have the option of either , providing the 400k is in the bank for a period of 3 months before you apply.

is that a new rule too? when i did my first extension i had the 400k in the bank account about two days before applying

LITE BEER is mistaken. The change for retirement extension is to have 800K in the bank three months before applying. The rule change for marriage is only the showing of 40k/month and no longer allows 400k(new applicants only). You are still OK rainman.

[lopburi3]

The rule is that the money must be in the account for 3 months prior to application for extension of stay so yes, rainman, you will have to have it in your account for 3 months and then it must be in the account during the review period which may run another 3 months. So, you may want to consider changing to income in any case.

The whole idea seem to be to catch those that 'borrow funds' to meet requirements.

[Maestro]

Now we want to move back to Thailand. She wants to take over the shop of het mother which (like many small Thai businesses) has officially a very low income (although in reality it's not that low at all).

...

I believe the new regulations are not very fair.

...I am reluctant to give you advice as you may comment on any suggestion being made that it is “unfair”.

the new regulations stipulate the 40,000 baht are required each month for the Non-Imm-O visa. Since you have 20K coming from rental property in the EU, seems like you are half way there.

Will your wife's shop generate enough money to cover the deficit (in other words 20K per month)? If so, I believe this is sufficient for you to quality for the Non-Imm-O.

Last time I checked 20K + 20K = 40K.

The shop generates enough to live. But just like with all small businesses the income of the shop is estimated by a controller of the tax-department that comes to check once per year. If we tell to this person our income is 40K per month, we'll pay tax on that 40K which will give us a disadvantage in competing with the neigbour shops that have much less official income (average only 10K).

Gumball, I was thinking along the same lines as you, but as I feared the original poster thinks it is unfair that his wife should have to cheat the government a little bit less so that it would be easier for him to stay long-term in Thailand with his family.

Q.E.D. (and another member added to my list of ignored users)

--------------

Maestro

Edited November 3, 2006 by maestro

[rainman]

i usually keep most of my funds overseas, since i need it for day to day business. usually i have in cash in thailand about 200-300k plus my monthly income, which is around 70k-100k, it varies month by month, whatever i need i transfer from my company account at the beginning of each month.

does anyone know what kind of "proof" they require for the monthly income of 40k+? would bank account statements showing overseas wire transfers from the past 3+ years do? or do they need a letter from the company you're receiving the funds from?

i remember i tried to get an employment confirmation from my embassy back when i applied for the initial one-year extension and the embassy would not issue that on the grounds that "they cannot guarantee immigration i will still be employed tomorrow".

so what will be proof enough for immigration that you're receiving funds from overseas on a monthly basis?

[lopburi3]

I would ask your Embassy again - perhaps there thinking has changed as everyone requires this for retirement also so they should be willing to provide - they don't have to guarantee anything but your word.

[rainman]

I would ask your Embassy again - perhaps there thinking has changed as everyone requires this for retirement also so they should be willing to provide - they don't have to guarantee anything but your word.

i guess monday morning i will take a trip to the immigration to get the exact documents they need for my next extension as well as to the embassy, if the immigration needs a document from them. better do it now than a week before the extension runs out.

[kudroz]

i usually keep most of my funds overseas, since i need it for day to day business. usually i have in cash in thailand about 200-300k plus my monthly income, which is around 70k-100k, it varies month by month, whatever i need i transfer from my company account at the beginning of each month.

does anyone know what kind of "proof" they require for the monthly income of 40k+? would bank account statements showing overseas wire transfers from the past 3+ years do? or do they need a letter from the company you're receiving the funds from?

i remember i tried to get an employment confirmation from my embassy back when i applied for the initial one-year extension and the embassy would not issue that on the grounds that "they cannot guarantee immigration i will still be employed tomorrow".

so what will be proof enough for immigration that you're receiving funds from overseas on a monthly basis?

What kind of income do you receive every month?

- Capital Gains

- Distributions (dividends, beneficiary of a trust, etc)

- Interest Income

Because, if you are bringing one of the above in Thailand, in the same year they were earned, you are subject to pay taxes on this income - therefore with a copy of your Por Ngor Dor 91 (tax return) and a bank statement, you will be just fine to prove the required THB 40k income.

If you are performing services from Thailand for an entity outside of Thailand, you are subject to taxes in Thailand (Thai source income) - therefore with a copy of your Por Ngor Dor 91 (tax return) and a bank statement, you will be just fine to prove the required THB 40K income.

In the case where you paid taxes already in another jurisdiction that has a DTA (double tax agreement) with Thailand, it is likely you will obtain a Foreign Tax Credit that will be applied against the taxes you are liable for in Thailand.

There are many things to be considered on your personal tax situation (exceptions with the DTA, specifics of your situation,etc) before you can have solid advise. I think you referred to something pertaining to having business activities outside of Thailand; one should be very careful if the Mind and Management of the enterprise is located in Thailand - by doing so you are creating nexus (a Permanent Establishment) for tax purposes in Thailand. Generally speaking, the enterprise would be subject to Thailand taxes on the portion of the income that is believed to be connected with the permanent establishment in Thailand.

Anyways, just a heads up - your situation is probably too complex to advise on a message board, you should call Sunbelt and get a consultation with them on your particular situation.