Thailand - is it making real progress?

[ChrisKC]

I have lived in Thailand for half a generation. Without believing I have my pulse on the state of the Nation, I am mostly up to speed.

In that half a generation, I would like to think that some sustainable progress has been made in this Country that we can really be positive about: in education, corruption, death on the roads, nationwide trash, law enforcement, income tax evasion, domestic loans, human trafficking etc.

But I am not sure I have noticed that sustained progress or, as I put it, "a shift towards the betterment of Thailand (as seen by its own eyes and the world at large) and an active determination to become more worldly-wise".

If my perspective is ill-judged, I welcome observations that will put me right - I will not lose face!

[AlexRich]

I don't have your experience here as i've only been travelling around Thailand for a couple of years. However, having travelled to some of the neighbours in between visas it looks to me that Vietnam will overtake Thailand at some point in the near future. Cambodia and Myanmar might also catch up, but over a longer period. A country that constantly shifts from democracy to military rule, then back again, is hardly likely to encourage long term investors. From comments read in media and forums there does not appear to be a great deal of confidence in the education system, something that is crucial for a developing country. I was much more impressed with Vietnam and the emphasis that is placed on education and economic development. Having said all of that, the absence of any safety nets (social security, medical, etc) means that Thais have to be entrepreneurial to survive ... and that may well save the day. Thailand strikes me as a country that is muddling through but not really striving forward.

[kannot]

yes its making progress.................in the completely wrong direction, doesnt matter who governs, the mindset of the Thai public is trapped in a prehistoric system.

Edited April 24, 2016 by kannot

[BudRight]

What you've witnessed is the whole world crawling itself out of the poverty, with Thailand drug along behind.

Edited April 24, 2016 by BudRight

[AYJAYDEE]

From my wife's family whose members spent between 4 and 6 years in school, we now have the next generation of kids , 8 of which graduated from college or university. I'd say that's progress.

[kannot]

From my wife's family whose members spent between 4 and 6 years in school, we now have the next generation of kids , 8 of which graduated from college or university. I'd say that's progress.

A Thai university? Its not "how long" you spend there its "what your'e taught"

Edited April 25, 2016 by kannot

[metisdead]

I don't think the OP intended for this topic to go into political discussion, if the discussion continues to go in the direction of Thai political discussion, it will the closed as per the Policy In General Regarding Thailand Political Discussions-UPDATED.

[ChrisKC]

From my wife's family whose members spent between 4 and 6 years in school, we now have the next generation of kids , 8 of which graduated from college or university. I'd say that's progress.

A Thai university? Its not "how long" you spend there its "what your'e taught"

Or, indeed, what you learnt!

[AYJAYDEE]

From my wife's family whose members spent between 4 and 6 years in school, we now have the next generation of kids , 8 of which graduated from college or university. I'd say that's progress.

A Thai university? Its not "how long" you spend there its "what your'e taught"

they were taught very well

[AYJAYDEE]

From my wife's family whose members spent between 4 and 6 years in school, we now have the next generation of kids , 8 of which graduated from college or university. I'd say that's progress.

A Thai university? Its not "how long" you spend there its "what your'e taught"

Or, indeed, what you learnt!

they learned everything that was required of them to get good marks and get placed in good careers.

[Nowisee]

You have much more experience here than I do. Talking with other long term farang, they feel the same as you do and many have reached the point of throwing in the towel.

Regarding the topics you mention in sustainable progress, in the short 3 years I have been here, I've not seen it and read news confirming that... often national news and not painting a good picture of what was once a highly sought out place to travel to and live in.

Muddling along is a good description of what most are doing.

I think it's become unhealthy here... socially, economically, intellectually and most importantly, physically.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Nowisee

[Berkshire]

I'm not sure how foreigners can possibly answer this question. As an American, if the OP were to ask me: USA - is it making real progress?....I would have to ask him his definition of "progress." For Thailand, yes there has been progress in Information Technology, medical advancement, infrastructure, globalization, etc. Not so much in terms of inequality, corruption, political divisiveness, the environment, etc. I will say that in the 10+ years I've been here, Thailand has improved for me personally.

[Laughing Gravy]

I'm not sure how foreigners can possibly answer this question. As an American, if the OP were to ask me: USA - is it making real progress?....I would have to ask him his definition of "progress." For Thailand, yes there has been progress in Information Technology, medical advancement, infrastructure, globalization, etc. Not so much in terms of inequality, corruption, political divisiveness, the environment, etc. I will say that in the 10+ years I've been here, Thailand has improved for me personally.

If the guy has lived here for so long, of course he can answer the question from his perspective. People may not agree but its his perception. For me Thailand is more in the news than 15 years ago and has improved in some respects. some infrastructure has improved, in Bangkok and the rural areas. Most people have the internet and a mobile phone so communication has improved. more people have cars so personal transport is more prevalent, although the damage to the roads is questionable. I could go on but won't for now.

[laolover88]

I think AYJAYDEE must be the only person who has been lucky enough to secure a "good" education for his family. Here all the so-called middle class Thais are desperate for tutors, as there are no international schools, to try and compensate for the woeful secondary schools. And to the point of even closing their businesses and moving to Chiang Mai, Bangkok and Khon Khaen. I have lived here for a long time now.Where I live today almost all business is conducted by Vietnamese and Laos.And the Big C and Lotus car Parks are full of Lao cars. There is a lot more drug money than 20 years ago and Ya Ba use is rampant, if you call that progress.Here is beginning to be no longer competitive in the industries on which it thrived. Clothes and shoes are made more cheaply elsewhere. Hard drives and other computer equipment are no longer either state of the art nor competitively priced. Even Toyota is thinking of relocating to Indonesia. Vietnamese rice is both more productive per hectare, more drought and disease resistant and cheaper. Thailand still has some of the most beautiful beaches in SE Asia but they are being quietly wrecked. If Myanmar opens up those beaches are even more lovely! I used to fly every month on Thai Airways. I would not now step on a Thai Airways plane. Expensive and poorly maintained. It is a miracle there has not been a disaster. The roads seem more unsafe than before. And no-one cares. I never felt at risk here, more so than in London. Now I am much more wary. Rich Thais are travelling the world. It is always difficult to gauge levels of poverty but here there are certainly more people on the breadline.I don't want to go into the politics except to say that, also, the bureaucracy is far more bloated than it was 20 years ago. I live in a small town. 20 years ago Immigration had 1 member of staff. Now it has about 14, one of whom appears to have the job of handing out forms!. There are no "customers"! I think most families are deeply in debt. If you go to the bank they have huge folders of reposessed property for sale. The place is awash with overpriced second hand cars; the deposit on a motorbike has sunk to 750 Baht.

Some places, I guess, like Bangkok, Chiang Mai, Pattaya, Patong are being kept afloat by big influxes of Russian, Chinese and European/American money. Elsewhere?I don't know. I hope I am wrong and cannot see the reality!

[Berkshire]

I'm not sure how foreigners can possibly answer this question. As an American, if the OP were to ask me: USA - is it making real progress?....I would have to ask him his definition of "progress." For Thailand, yes there has been progress in Information Technology, medical advancement, infrastructure, globalization, etc. Not so much in terms of inequality, corruption, political divisiveness, the environment, etc. I will say that in the 10+ years I've been here, Thailand has improved for me personally.

If the guy has lived here for so long, of course he can answer the question from his perspective. People may not agree but its his perception. For me Thailand is more in the news than 15 years ago and has improved in some respects. some infrastructure has improved, in Bangkok and the rural areas. Most people have the internet and a mobile phone so communication has improved. more people have cars so personal transport is more prevalent, although the damage to the roads is questionable. I could go on but won't for now.

The point I was trying to make is even as an American, with intimate knowledge of the USA and its history, I would still have a difficult time answering that question pertaining to America. So I would imagine foreigners (anywhere) would have a difficult time answering that question, except in the most basic, superficial sense.

[kannot]

From my wife's family whose members spent between 4 and 6 years in school, we now have the next generation of kids , 8 of which graduated from college or university. I'd say that's progress.

A Thai university? Its not "how long" you spend there its "what your'e taught"

Or, indeed, what you learnt!

they learned everything that was required of them to get good marks and get placed in good careers.

In Thailand?

[AYJAYDEE]

In Thailand?

some in thailand, some in north america

[GuestHouse]

I think AYJAYDEE must be the only person who has been lucky enough to secure a "good" education for his family. Here all the so-called middle class Thais are desperate for tutors, as there are no international schools, to try and compensate for the woeful secondary schools.

It's human nature, we all like to tell ourselves we did the best we could.

[ChrisKC]

The key words are "perspective, "betterment", "collective" (nationwide) from the point of view of my thread.

I have used the word "progress" which to be fair is difficult to measure in ways that everyone would agree. Some aspects of progress are seen by some to be positive and others retrogressive.

By "betterment", I mean whether you think from your perspective, that "bad" things nationally have improved in ways that the status quo has risen and if you have observed them or not.

By perspective, I mean from your personal point of view, not your personal circumstances. That is, how you see Thailand as a whole from the time you arrived to the present time. This perspective will be determined by that length of time as well as other factors such as what you see as National priorities, attitude, experience, acquired knowledge and your instincts.

Chris

[AYJAYDEE]

The key words are "perspective, "betterment", "collective" (nationwide) from the point of view of my thread.

I have used the word "progress" which to be fair is difficult to measure in ways that everyone would agree. Some aspects of progress are seen by some to be positive and others retrogressive.

By "betterment", I mean whether you think from your perspective, that "bad" things nationally have improved in ways that the status quo has risen and if you have observed them or not.

By perspective, I mean from your personal point of view, not your personal circumstances. That is, how you see Thailand as a whole from the time you arrived to the present time. This perspective will be determined by that length of time as well as other factors such as what you see as National priorities, attitude, experience, acquired knowledge and your instincts.

Chris

as Berkshire said, some aspects are better , some are worse.

[lovelomsak]

I think Thailand is going to hell in a hand basket. But so is the rest of the world. I know of many,many Thai,s in labour making the same daily or monthly wage they did 10 years ago and costs have doubled.My wife has 2 university degrees and works at a school for 8,000 baht a month. Inflation is high.and wages do not keep up. Education is non existant. I know guys foreigners who were high school drop outs teaching english at Thai high school,s. The diet of most Thai,s now is sugar and ajinomoto, making American junk food look healthy.Family the most important part of Thai culture is being lost with the young becoming westernised. The old are being forgotten and left alone where before they were taken care of by the next generation,and government has not stepped in to assist them. Corruption is so costly. Before corruption added up to 30% to contracts now it reachs as high as 100%. Crimes against tourists has risen dramatically..

I have seem only one positive . there are more hospitals and clinics than before but the staff is poorly educated so does it matter they are there?

My step son who never studied all through school and learned nothing. Was lucky we got him into a university to be a medical technician. After 2 years of study the university said he could change to doctor,s degree. This kid is not doctor material believe me. he is not even university qualified in my opinion. He got in because we could afford the high fee,s nothing else. He would be dangerous as doctor. He could come out with a degree as a doctor add to stats but in reality he would best be suited to pig farming.

Edited April 25, 2016 by lovelomsak

[AYJAYDEE]

I think Thailand is going to hell in a hand basket. But so is the rest of the world. I know of many,many Thai,s in labour making the same daily or monthly wage they did 10 years ago and costs have doubled.My wife has 2 university degrees and works at a school for 8,000 baht a month. Inflation is high.and wages do not keep up. Education is non existant. I know guys foreigners who were high school drop outs teaching english at Thai high school,s. The diet of most Thai,s now is sugar and ajinomoto, making American junk food look healthy.Family the most important part of Thai culture is being lost with the young becoming westernised. The old are being forgotten and left alone where before they were taken care of by the next generation,and government has not stepped in to assist them. Corruption is so costly. Before corruption added up to 30% to contracts now it reachs as high as 100%. Crimes against tourists has risen dramatically..

I have seem only one positive . there are more hospitals and clinics than before but the staff is poorly educated so does it matter they are there?

my niece graduated with one degree 2 years ago and makes 15,000 a month. tell your wife to change schools

[ChristianBlessing]

From my wife's family whose members spent between 4 and 6 years in school, we now have the next generation of kids , 8 of which graduated from college or university. I'd say that's progress.

A Thai university? Its not "how long" you spend there its "what your'e taught"

How cynical. Education is a matter of what one learns, not what one is taught.

[kannot]

In Thailand?

some in thailand, some in north america

Were the degrees gained in North America or Thailand? All Thais with some money send them OUT of Thailand to do a degree.

[kannot]

From my wife's family whose members spent between 4 and 6 years in school, we now have the next generation of kids , 8 of which graduated from college or university. I'd say that's progress.

A Thai university? Its not "how long" you spend there its "what your'e taught"

How cynical. Education is a matter of what one learns, not what one is taught.

Taught to march up and down and respect he who must be obeyed......what do they really learn?

Thailand makes you cynical when "everything" has a price

http://studyinthailand.org/study_abroad_thailand_university/university-ranking-Thailand.html

Edited April 25, 2016 by kannot

[lovelomsak]

I think Thailand is going to hell in a hand basket. But so is the rest of the world. I know of many,many Thai,s in labour making the same daily or monthly wage they did 10 years ago and costs have doubled.My wife has 2 university degrees and works at a school for 8,000 baht a month. Inflation is high.and wages do not keep up. Education is non existant. I know guys foreigners who were high school drop outs teaching english at Thai high school,s. The diet of most Thai,s now is sugar and ajinomoto, making American junk food look healthy.Family the most important part of Thai culture is being lost with the young becoming westernised. The old are being forgotten and left alone where before they were taken care of by the next generation,and government has not stepped in to assist them. Corruption is so costly. Before corruption added up to 30% to contracts now it reachs as high as 100%. Crimes against tourists has risen dramatically..

I have seem only one positive . there are more hospitals and clinics than before but the staff is poorly educated so does it matter they are there?

my niece graduated with one degree 2 years ago and makes 15,000 a month. tell your wife to change schools

My wife is at the 3rd school since we met. One paid the salary your niece is getting but worked her to the bone. Most days 12 hours. Worked weekends. Had to stay at the school for one weekend a month. Treated like a slave.Worked her till she was so exhausted and she got sick then they fired her well she was sick. I see your posts as not the Thailand the rest of us know. It appears your reality here is far different than the reality of the masses. You are yours maybe blessed but it does not mean the rest are given the same opportunities.Please remember that when you post. you have a very narrow perpective. Mainly it seems because you refer only to your own family as an example. Check around you most are not living like you are with all the same opportunities. So you are connected. That makes you part of the problem. Taking care of your self well the rest suffer. Not nice picture.

Edited April 25, 2016 by lovelomsak

[AYJAYDEE]

I think Thailand is going to hell in a hand basket. But so is the rest of the world. I know of many,many Thai,s in labour making the same daily or monthly wage they did 10 years ago and costs have doubled.My wife has 2 university degrees and works at a school for 8,000 baht a month. Inflation is high.and wages do not keep up. Education is non existant. I know guys foreigners who were high school drop outs teaching english at Thai high school,s. The diet of most Thai,s now is sugar and ajinomoto, making American junk food look healthy.Family the most important part of Thai culture is being lost with the young becoming westernised. The old are being forgotten and left alone where before they were taken care of by the next generation,and government has not stepped in to assist them. Corruption is so costly. Before corruption added up to 30% to contracts now it reachs as high as 100%. Crimes against tourists has risen dramatically..

I have seem only one positive . there are more hospitals and clinics than before but the staff is poorly educated so does it matter they are there?

my niece graduated with one degree 2 years ago and makes 15,000 a month. tell your wife to change schools

My wife is at the 3rd school since we met. One paid the salary your niece is getting but worked her to the bone. Most days 12 hours. Worked weekends. Had to stay at the school for one weekend a month. Treated like a slave.Worked her till she was so exhausted and she got sick then they fired her well she was sick. I see your posts as not the Thailand the rest of us know. It appears your reality here is far different than the reality of the masses. You are yours maybe blessed but it does not mean the rest are given the same opportunities.Please remember that when you post. you have a very narrow perpective. Mainly it seems because you refer only to your own family as an example. Check around you most are not living like you are with all the same opportunities. So you are connected. That makes you part of the problem. Taking care of your self well the rest suffer. Not nice picture.

youre quite mistaken. our family did well because they worked hard and sacrificed for their children who in turn worked and studied. it had nothing to do with connections.

[Freakin Musashi]

Thailand is what we used to call a third-world country, or a developing country.
IMHO, a single expat first-worlder can't expect to influence the direction of that country's development, one can only watch from the sidelines.
That said, I wonder what average Thais think of the progress in Myanmar. It's still early days there, but it's possible that Myanmar may be more enthusiastic about democracy than Thailand.

[MikeyIdea]

I have lived in Thailand since 1991 and I spent many years speaking more Thai than English in an average day until my daughter grew up enough for me to switch to English. I still speak more Thai than English at work

I see enormous development since 1991, so much that I cannot understand how anyone spending a longer time in Thailand cannot see the development

I think we need to clarify if the answer should be from a Thai perspective or westerners living in Thailand

Edited April 26, 2016 by MikeyIdea

[lovelomsak]

I think Thailand is going to hell in a hand basket. But so is the rest of the world. I know of many,many Thai,s in labour making the same daily or monthly wage they did 10 years ago and costs have doubled.My wife has 2 university degrees and works at a school for 8,000 baht a month. Inflation is high.and wages do not keep up. Education is non existant. I know guys foreigners who were high school drop outs teaching english at Thai high school,s. The diet of most Thai,s now is sugar and ajinomoto, making American junk food look healthy.Family the most important part of Thai culture is being lost with the young becoming westernised. The old are being forgotten and left alone where before they were taken care of by the next generation,and government has not stepped in to assist them. Corruption is so costly. Before corruption added up to 30% to contracts now it reachs as high as 100%. Crimes against tourists has risen dramatically..

I have seem only one positive . there are more hospitals and clinics than before but the staff is poorly educated so does it matter they are there?

my niece graduated with one degree 2 years ago and makes 15,000 a month. tell your wife to change schools

My wife is at the 3rd school since we met. One paid the salary your niece is getting but worked her to the bone. Most days 12 hours. Worked weekends. Had to stay at the school for one weekend a month. Treated like a slave.Worked her till she was so exhausted and she got sick then they fired her well she was sick. I see your posts as not the Thailand the rest of us know. It appears your reality here is far different than the reality of the masses. You are yours maybe blessed but it does not mean the rest are given the same opportunities.Please remember that when you post. you have a very narrow perpective. Mainly it seems because you refer only to your own family as an example. Check around you most are not living like you are with all the same opportunities. So you are connected. That makes you part of the problem. Taking care of your self well the rest suffer. Not nice picture.

youre quite mistaken. our family did well because they worked hard and sacrificed for their children who in turn worked and studied. it had nothing to do with connections.

So then what do your posts on this thread have to do with the topic? Or do you wish to change the topic to how your family has done in Thailand well the rest of the country is going backwards.Because all you talk about is your family.The topic is Thailand not your family sorry.